Categories
"ethics" $MONEY$ a voice for men antifeminism evil SJWs harassment men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA oppressed men paul elam red pill reddit

An Open Letter to Cassie Jaye, director of The Red Pill

Paul Elam: Subject of, and fundraiser for, Cassie Jaye's The Red Pill, in a shot from a preview of the film
Paul Elam: Subject of, and fundraiser for, Cassie Jaye’s The Red Pill, in a shot from a preview of the documentary

UPDATE 10/25/16: If you’ve come here after reading about a petition to cancel screenings of The Red Pill, I ask you to NOT sign any such petitions. It’s just free publicity for them. Read more of my thoughts on the matter here

Dear Cassie Jaye,

Congratulations. You surpassed your Kickstarter fundraising goal yesterday, more than two weeks before the Kickstarter campaign was scheduled to come to a close. You’ve funded the postproduction work on your long-delayed documentary on Men’s Rights activists, and then some.

But I’m not sure that the person I should be congratulating is you. Last night Paul Elam of A Voice for Men – the central subject of your film – was doing his own victory lap online. And no wonder, because he seems to be the real victor here.

In a post on his site that managed to be giddy and vindictive at once, he offered his congratulations to you, then, well, to himself. “Even though the victory goes to Ms. Jaye,” he wrote, in an awkward attempt at modesty, “I have the need to offer up some thanks.”

And then he spelled out why he thinks your “victory” is really a victory for him.

For the past six years AVFM has had mud kicked in its face by a corrupt, left-wing media. Bottom feeders like Adam Serwer, Jeff Sharlet and Mariah Blake have performed endless unscrupulous acts, directly lying to their readers in order to attack AVFM, this movement and me personally.

Their work was not just to harm me, or to damage a website but to make sure if they could that the message we carry never found its way to the larger public. Their intent was and is to paint an indelible stain on all of us so hideous that we would never be taken seriously by enough people to matter.

They have failed, and I can now predict that they have failed miserably.

In other words, Paul Elam thinks he and his friends in what he ludicrously calls the “Men’s Human Rights Movement” have bought and paid for a feature-length advertisement for them.

And it’s not hard to see why Elam – and the other manospherians who’ve rallied around your film in recent days — think this. After all, they are the ones who have rescued your film from oblivion by pouring tens of thousands of dollars into your Kickstarter.

And all it took for you to unleash this torrent of money was an interview with one of the sleaziest figures in right-wing journalism, Milo Yiannopoulos of Breitbart.

In the interview, posted on Monday, you complained that “I won’t be getting support from feminists. They want a hit piece and I won’t do that.”

There was more than a little bit of irony in the fact that you were saying this to a man infamous for his many hit pieces on so-called “Social Justice Warriors.”

You also complained about an intern on your film who, you said, “had a lot of crying attacks and emotional experiences. She claimed everything I was showing her was triggering her.”

A young feminist “triggered” and crying. This is red meat to the Breitbart crowd, and I have to assume you knew this when you told Milo this story.

To an outside observer like me, this shameful pandering looks a lot like a Hail Mary play on your part. Having failed to convince most potential funders of the film that you would present anything close to an accurate picture of the Men’s Rights movement, you told Breitbart what its readers – and the broader manosphere – wanted to hear.

And it worked. Men’s Rights activists, self-professed “Red Pillers” and other assorted antifeminists rallied around your film, and the money started flowing.

On Reddit, the moderators of the Men’s Rights subreddit “stickied” an appeal to donate to your Kickstarter to the top of their front page, urging MRAs to open their wallets in order to show skeptics that “we can take part in some actual activism and not just post stuff in here.”

Even the regulars in the violently misogynistic Red Pill subreddit agreed to help bankroll your film.

And it wasn’t just Men’s Rights and “Red Pill” Redditors who organized support for your film. One right-wing Red Pill blogger, notorious for his harassment of ideological enemies, pledged to match donations up to $10,000, describing your documentary as “the Movie SJWs Do Not Want You to See.”

Meanwhile, on her blog, AVFM’s “social media director” Andrea Hardie (an internet bully better known under her pseudonyms Janet Bloomfield and “Judgy Bitch”) not only rallied her readers around your Kickstarter but also set up a gofundme of her own, raising money in hopes that it would buy Breitbart’s Yiannopoulos a producer credit in your film. (I hope that is out of the question, even if she raises more than the paltry amount she’s raised for this purpose so far.)

And then there was Elam himself, on Twitter, calling on his followers to, in his words, “Help fund #RedPillMovie because fuck feminists!”

https://twitter.com/AVoiceForMen/status/658700057311506432

Accepting money from these people would seem to be a pretty clear violation of the principles you set forth in your own Kickstarter video, in which you declared that

in order to keep this film non-partisan, and respectfully show all sides to this debate, we won’t accept funding from organizations that inevitably have biased agendas.

Instead, you have chosen to take money from people who see your film as a chance to say “fuck you” to feminists. You have chosen to take money from the actual subjects of your film.

You are making a film about Men’s Rights Activists, funded to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars by Men’s Rights Activists. You are making a film about A Voice for Men funded in part by A Voice for Men.

Does that not trouble you at all? It should. In your interview with Breitbart, you noted that “films that support one side and act as propaganda do better than those that try to have an honest look.”

You said this, presumably, to set yourself apart from such propagandists. Now you seem to have cast your lot in with them.

Which I suppose makes sense, since the clips of your film that you’ve posted online so far look a lot more like propaganda than they do like any sort of honest look at the Men’s Rights movement,

I felt uneasy about your project from the start, concerned that you had been pulled in by the soothing but misleading rhetoric that MRAs spout when they are trying to sound more respectable than they really are, rather than on what MRAs actually say and do when the cameras are off of them.

But I knew you had a good reputation as a filmmaker, and heard good things from several feminists who knew you better than I did. So I held my tongue and tried my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, even when you posted clips from your film that portrayed AVFMers as heroic underdogs rather than the misogynists and malicious harassers that they really are.

When I wrote you a little over a week ago with some of my concerns, you assured me in the phone call that followed that the clips you had posted were only part of the story, that you were well aware that the MRAs you had interviewed were on their best behavior when talking to you, and that the real story of the Men’s Rights movement is far less rosy-hued. Against my better judgement, I continued to hold on to some kind of hope that you would live up to your reputation in the end.

And now, frankly, I feel like I’ve been played.

Unfortunately, it looks like you have been played too, much more spectacularly than I have. I suspect you are doing far more damage to your reputation than you even know.

One thing I have learned in five years of watching, and writing about, and dealing with, the Men’s Rights movement, is that if Paul Elam is happy about something, that thing is almost certainly terrible.

I suspect, sadly, that you will ultimately learn this lesson yourself, the hard way.

PS: In our phone conversation, you suggested that if you were able to fund your film, you might be able to finally film the interview with me that we originally had planned to do, but which fell through due to financial and other practical obstacles during the original filming of The Red Pill. At this point, I am sorry to say, that is completely out of the question.

1.9K Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
7 years ago

The person who authors this blog makes that determination, Shapman. The regulars that mock those profiled make that determination.

Don’t like it? Don’t come here.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

You have now lowered yourself to excusing the bias of the judge with a litany of possible excuses. Both parties disclosure clearly indicated that we are in a shared custody situation.

I said possible explanations. Not excuses. And I see you’re still ignoring that all you offering is an anecdote and telling us what you heard lawyers say.

If you are going to convince people who are skeptical of your position, you must provide data. Otherwise the conversation is simply going to go around in circles.

What I really want to know from you though is why you are so opposed to the notion that patriarchy is what causes some of the issues that men have. Such as not being seen as nurturers and caregivers. Or not seeking help for mental health issues because men are supposed to be tough. Or not being taken seriously as a rape victim because real men never say no to sex. Why does this vex you so? You could be working with feminists to bust the traditional gender roles that are so harmful. But you’re more interested in opposing us and that is to your own detriment. Since men are not overall the marginalized gender, you are not going to get far trying to convince people that you are.

You are continuing to ignore the fact that feminists are the ones who say that fathers can and should do equal amounts of child care giving. You are continuing to ignore that you sided with the only one on the thread who is saying that child care is women’s work. That would be Jerry. I’ll repost it again because you are continuing to ignore this point

No men don’t have babies, something to do with the physiology I believe (no uterus) to quote monty pythons ” what are we supposed to do carry it around in a box for 9 months”. We also cant breast feed, and I believe theres some scientific evidence that women are better at changing nappies (if there isn’t I’ll invent some) and multi tasking generally.

You want to change the culture? Go after your fellow men who say shit like this.

You are such a disingenuous hypocritical weasel. You have absolutely no objection to anything men say as long as what they are saying is anti-feminist. If it does splash damage to men like you who claim to care so much about men who want to be equally involved in parenting, then who cares, right?

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

It is hilarious when these trolls start out by saying that they can’t address our arguments because we don’t make them politely enough, but then they claim feminists/SJWs/whoever else they don’t like are special snowflakes who are looking to be offended and need to loosen up.

You can’t have it both ways. Either both sides must maintain a civil tone or neither side is required. You can’t expected to be shielded from mild mockery and sarcasm and then front like you’re so much tougher than silly bleeding heart SJWs.

Viscaria the Cheese Hog
Viscaria the Cheese Hog
7 years ago

Why do transphobes think trans is a plural noun? Do they think a single trans person is a referred to as a tran?

dslucia
dslucia
7 years ago

@Shapman:

Aw, how cute. You think I actually care about the opinion of some MRA troll. I’ve been doing this with mangry gamerbros for three years now, you’re gonna have to try a lot harder.

dslucia
dslucia
7 years ago

You can’t expected to be shielded from mild mockery and sarcasm and then front like you’re so much tougher than silly bleeding heart SJWs.

Even comedians I used to listen to a decade ago would say harsher things than are usually said around here. Manospherians are so tender.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

I’ve been doing this with mangry gamerbros for three years now,

And these trolls are just like them.

Woman gamers and developers complain about being on the receiving end of gendered abuse and harassment? They need to toughen up. Gamers like to trash talk. If women can’t deal with it, they shouldn’t play!

Then Anita Sarkeesian makes some videos mildly critiquing games from a feminist viewpoint and they throw a giant tantrum. Actually, they threw tantrums before the first video even came out. They couldn’t even stand that she raised funds for them. Even though she doesn’t say people shouldn’t play games that have some sexist tropes in them and does not call for censorship of any kind, she is ruining their lives and trying to destroy them.

It’s just ridiculous.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
7 years ago

@ shapman

I do want to respond to your post fairly and properly so it would assist me if you could tell me which of you was eligible to receive the Canada child benefit (CCB) payment for the child as defined under the Income Tax Act?

I’ve been having a read up on the provisions relating to ‘primary caregiver’. It’s fascinating stuff; insofar as tax law can be.

Ooglyboggles
7 years ago

@Viscaria the Cheese Hog

Why do transphobes think trans is a plural noun? Do they think a single trans person is a referred to as a tran?

That’d be confusing, if they said tran people couldn’t tell if they were talking about a trans person or people with the last name Tran.

Shapman
Shapman
7 years ago

You could be working with feminists to bust the traditional gender roles that are so harmful.

Only if I buy into the mythical “Patriarchy”. Sorry I will pass. If you say that those who do not believe in this nonsense (yes, my opinion that this is nonsense) should not even be heard in the discussion on how to reach a solution on some issues related to gender inequity.

You are such a disingenuous hypocritical weasel.

pot – meet kettle.

you have been OK with people saying I have the makings of a “serial abuser” or that my daughter should feel “sorry” to have me as a father. Some random guy making a blanket statement about women being
able to multi-task and change diapers better than men (I don’t agree with either statement) is not nearly as insulting.

@dslucia

You think I actually care about the opinion of some MRA troll.

First, what is an MRA in your eyes? Someone who believes that discrimination is experienced by both men and women? Someone who believes that some issues which are dominated by the feminists voices should include a dialogue on how boys/men are impacted (there are many examples)? Someone who believes that there are likewise issues which impact males more adversely (workplace deaths, suicides, school drop-out rates) which should get a little more oxygen in the discussion of critical social issues? If that is true than I guess I am an MRA (never visited an MRA site or been to a rally. Oh wait, I was at the screening of The Red Pill held here in Toronto. Does that automatically make me an MRA?)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
7 years ago

@ shapman

You could be working with feminists to bust the traditional gender roles that are so harmful.

Only if I buy into the mythical “Patriarchy”. Sorry I will pass.

What was your complaint again? The law making a particular assumption and requiring evidence to show otherwise?

The PCG is the person primarily responsible for the care and upbringing of a child.

If there is a female parent who lives with the child, the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) usually considers her to be this person. However, it could be the father, a grandparent, or a guardian.

So which is it? There are no harmful gender stereotypes; or you were screwed over because the law assumes a gender stereotype? You can’t have both.

Brony, Social Justice Cenobite

I love it. I don’t have to care if they don’t want to accept the concept of patriarchy. They came here make something happen, they can’t demonstrate what’s needed to make it happen. I accept it and will act like it’s true. Humans are quite capable of acting like only some people get to exercise authority, but people who are patrirchs can’t because…

Well now that’s the problem. It’s not a rediculious idea. I won’t pretend it is, openly.

dslucia
dslucia
7 years ago

And these trolls are just like them.

Eeyup. They even have some of the exact same form letter rants with regards to feminism.

@Shadman:

what is an MRA in your eyes?

Generally speaking, given how much evidence I’ve seen, someone who can’t resist trolling every vaguely left-leaning website. Someone who comes bumbling into threads shouting “but what about the men!?!?!?!” Someone who does their damnedest to turn every. Single. Damn. Conversation that women have into one about how actually, men have problems too, so if you could please focus on those that’d be great!!!1!!

Also someone who attempts to snarkily use terms like “trigger warning” or really desperately tries to be edgy by associating innocuous things with rape, and generally someone who will try to sound smart by using terms that “SJWs” like to use while completely failing to understand what those terms mean, what context they exist within, and why they’re used in the first place. And then when these sorts of things are pointed out to them, they’ll inevitably fall back on the good old classic troll tactic of crying about how feminists or SJWs are “the REAL sexists!!!”, and whine about “so much for the tolerant left!!!”, and throw their little troll tantrums about how they’re not getting their way and they’re getting mocked by the mean women on the feminist site they went to with the sole intention of trolling in the first place.

Sorry, I’m getting a bit rambly here, and my overall point is that MRAs are pretty much indistinguishable from Red Pillers, MGTOWs, PUAs, GamerGators, white supremacists, incels, and whichever other store-brand variety of misogynist I’ve missed. There are cosmetic differences between the groups mostly based on just how much importance they put on certain sociopolitical topics (Gators, for instance, tend to not have opinions on the subject of “men’s rights” beyond just a general belief that feminists suck), but they’re all based around the same basic idea and they all use fundamentally similar rhetoric to build the base of their opinions.

You might be shocked to discover that I believe that men do face plenty of issues in our current culture, as do many of the other people on this website! But, here’s the kicker, those issues are very rarely actively discussed here because they’re not the focus of this website, and as many people will tell you they’re not the focus of feminism as a whole; it just so happens that supporting feminism tends to come with quite a few positives for supporting men as well, because of all the shitty things that happen to men because of men.

weirwoodtreehugger: chief manatee

Shapman,

Why do you refuse to address what Jerry said?

Here it is, once more

No men don’t have babies, something to do with the physiology I believe (no uterus) to quote monty pythons ” what are we supposed to do carry it around in a box for 9 months”. We also cant breast feed, and I believe theres some scientific evidence that women are better at changing nappies (if there isn’t I’ll invent some) and multi tasking generally.

Do you agree with him that men don’t have babies? Do you agree with him that women are better at changing diapers? Do you agree with him that if a parent can’t breast feed, they can’t feed their baby? Do you agree with him that you need a uterus to parent?

If you do not agree with him, why did you defend him? If you do agree with him, then why are you arguing that fathers should get equal custody?

How would you react if one of the regulars here had been the one to say this?

Is there some reason you’re afraid to address this?

dslucia
dslucia
7 years ago

I’m not sure why I’m even telling Sharman the reasons behind why I think he’s a troll. The only way anyone would get a productive discussion out of him is if he was here to converse in good faith, and it was pretty obvious that went out the window back when he was here the first time around.

kupo
kupo
7 years ago

@Ooglyboggles

That’d be confusing, if they said tran people couldn’t tell if they were talking about a trans person or people with the last name Tran.

All of the Tran people I’ve met have been pretty nice.

John Devalle
John Devalle
7 years ago

@WWTH,

 I also do it because it seems to upset trolls so much. I’ll treat you as a serious person when you show me that you are one. So far, you are lacking.

I see. Not being in 99% agreement with yourself makes me a troll. I’ll have to find out what dictionary your using. Yes, I can be sarcastic too, though rarely am.

How do you expect to convince others of your case if you don’t act respectfully to them? Or do you feel the changes you want will just happen?

Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
Sinkable John : Pansy Ass Pinko, Regicidal Beast-of-Burden
7 years ago

Today I learned that calling a troll a troll and not respecting others are one and the same.

dslucia
dslucia
7 years ago

@John:

Also that “acting respectfully” to trolls will cause them to recant their trolly ways and suddenly decide to actually listen to the things that we say.

John Devalle
John Devalle
7 years ago

@WWTH

 It means female political candidates have a harder time winning elections. 

Not true of the UK. There’s been research here which shows gender is not a factor in determining who wins an election. Judging by the number of women at the top of politics in Europe that’s the case there. I suspect it is in the USA. There is a problem for women in that in some countries the hours politicians spend in the legislative body. and its construction, deter some women from standing for election, but not their chances of being elected.

John Devalle
John Devalle
7 years ago

@WWTH

It is hilarious when these trolls start out by saying that they can’t address our arguments because we don’t make them politely enough, but then they claim feminists/SJWs/whoever else they don’t like are special snowflakes who are looking to be offended and need to loosen up.
You can’t have it both ways. Either both sides must maintain a civil tone or neither side is required. You can’t expected to be shielded from mild mockery and sarcasm and then front like you’re so much tougher than silly bleeding heart SJWs.

You said it!

John Devalle
John Devalle
7 years ago

@dslucia

Also that “acting respectfully” to trolls will cause them to recant their trolly ways and suddenly decide to actually listen to the things that we say.

If I were a troll maybe it would. I’ve said I’ve learned from feminism, and also of the experiences of others that I wasn’t aware of. I know of no case where mocking people made them listen to what’s being said.
Bernie Sanders made a similar point after Trump won the election. In a thinly veiled criticism of Hilary Clinton he said they shouldn’t be attacking those who voted for Trump, but addressing the concerns of ordinary people, rather than billionaires.

dslucia
dslucia
7 years ago

@Devalle:

I know of no case where mocking people made them listen to what’s being said.

We Hunted the Mammoth tracks and mocks the white male rage underlying the rise of Trump and Trumpism. This blog is NOT a safe space; given the subject matter — misogyny and hate — there’s really no way it could be.

I was unaware that we must always keep the tender sensibilities of anti-feminists (or brogressives, since you seem so intent to insist that you totally listen to feminism, while demonstrating very little capacity of listening to the feminists on this website and instead choosing to whine about the way their posts are presented) in mind while commenting on this website, lest we offend an errant passerby.

Shapman
Shapman
7 years ago

@ John, as I said earlier, trying to engage in a dialogue with this lot is hopeless. They believe what they say is gospel and no one with a differing opinion (and especially anyone who does not buy the “theory” of The Patriarchy) will be anything but mocked and ridiculed.

PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
PeeVee the (Perpetually Ignored, Invisible but Noice) Sarcastic
7 years ago

John.

You appeared here to demand…er…invite people go to your FB page to discuss your creation, “They Call Her Petal.”

People have declined.

Why are you still here?

1 43 44 45 46 47 78