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JudgyBitch: Women make babies, and men make Large Hadron Colliders

Legos for girls: Not a new idea (from a lego ad in the 1980s)
Legos for girls: Not a new idea (from a lego ad in the 1980s)

So our old friend Janet “JudgyBitch” Bloomfield has written a rather silly post on how men are a bunch of STEM geniuses while women are basically designed to make babies. (On average.)

You’ve heard all this nonsense before, I am sure:

Human achievement depends on the tenacity and ingenuity of men, and their willingness to shoot for the moon (or a comet). Our mastery of the human condition, an end to suffering and poverty and disease and destitution requires technology. Water doesn’t magically clean itself, food doesn’t spring forth from the Earth without coaxing (at least not in sufficient amounts to feed all of us), the oceans do not replenish, diseases do not cure themselves and our ability to communicate and connect with each other, from one side of the planet to the other, all depends on technology.

Technology is designed, built, installed, maintained, repaired and operated almost exclusively by men. Without men, we would be living in grass huts, eating mud.

I’ll give her credit for at least suggesting a slightly novel “solution” to women (allegedly) being a bunch of stupid-heads compared to men. And by “novel” I mean “novel” only to MRAs.

Here is what I propose: we socialize girls to be more like men, and more like exceptionally intelligent men, in particular.

As she sees it, that means (among other things) making girls play with legos instead of Barbies (or any other traditionally girly toys), forcing them all to play Dungeons & Dragons (no, really), and requiring that they

study logic and rhetoric and traditional game theory, to sharpen their ability to work through a problem using reason and the empirical method.

Huh. I’m thinking that most of the dudes in the Men’s Rights movement must have slept through that part of their male socialization.

JB’s proposals are weirdly totalitarian, envisioning a mandatory one-size-fits-all approach to education for girls. And the misogyny underlying her glorification of “male” ways of thinking is fairly obvious. Her attempts to challenge traditionally gendered ways of raising girls fall more than a few steps short of feminism.

Sure, feminists have long fought against the pervasive gendering of toys. But they’re also into, you know, kids making choices for themselves. Encouraging girls to play with legos? Great! Forcing all girls to play exclusively with Legos, because you want them to become STEM geniuses? Not so great. Some girls want to play with legos; others prefer dolls. As do some boys.

For what it’s worth, JB describes her proposal as, yes, a “modest proposal,” so it’s not clear if she actually thinks that raising girls the same way as boys is a good idea, or if it’s one akin to eating babies.

Speaking of babies, here’s my favorite line in her post:

[T]he ultimate expression of femininity is a baby, and the ultimate expression of masculinity is the Large Hadron Collider.

Assuming this is true — and Janet Boomfield said it, so it must be! — just imagine what humans could accomplish if men and women worked together.

Yes, I’m talking about the ultimate in technology: the Large Baby Collider.

Oh, wait, we already have one of those; it’s called the Men’s Rights Movement.

But that’s a pretty primitive model. Here’s a prototype for an improved Large Baby Collider. It’s still a long way away from perfect — you may notice that half of the babies have been replaced by dogs — but it’s still a wobbly step in the right direction.

H/T — @TakedownMRAs

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RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@WWTH
I particularly like that he complained about people saying what type of humor was correct or not, and then he makes a claim about people not being funny.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Tehy5
Just go, no one wants another person to mansplain to them about trans people, how everyone should live their lives and they’re wrong if they don’t want that kind of life. Stop with the hyprocrisy and mansplaining and just go.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

This is probably wierd but I wish we had better trolls.

chesselwitt
chesselwitt
5 years ago

*crosses fingers and tries to blockquote*

Here’s a question:If you were married and with kids, would you be happier? I bet you would. -tehy5

First of all, as a happily childfree, asexual woman, fuck you. Married with kids is my idea of hell, and there is very little that would make me more miserable than that. Don’t speak for what would make other people happy, you’ll only make more of an ass of yourself. -Catalpa

Yeah, as an aromantic, allosexual woman with no maternal instinct whatsoever, this would be hell. And fuck you sideways with a cactus for trying to tell me what would make me happy.

My days of not taking him seriously are certainly coming to a middle. -weirwoodtreehugger

*awards one internet for perfectly used Firefly reference*

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

@ EJ (The Other One)

Internet pants:

pants that exist only in cyberspace. (Popular fashion worn by someone who also only exists in cyberspace)

For context:

Person 1: so I was having cybersex last night with hotchick69

Person 2: are you telling me you’re so out of it that it means something to you that you got down hotchick69’s internet pants? You know that online isn’t real right?

** A more complex version ‘Ashley Madison wears internet pants.

– I had to add another definition of “internet pants” because the first one is tmi/gross… I’m way more satisfied with ‘political jujitsu, don’t care that the two had to be combined because neither get much in the way of up-votes but do get down-votes – I don’t care what those kids ‘like these days didn’t need their u-votes anyway!

political jujitsu

the political fighting style in which an opponent’s energy and position is used against them with an emphasis on throwing out baseless claims in the press, immobilizing their funds and selectively applying the principles of balance (eliminating it), leverage (from back room deals), and momentum (from relentless lobbying) and as a last resort, putting important decisions on hold until the next session.

Judging by all of the legislation that congress has voted on in his favor, HSUS CEO Wayne Pacelle is a master of political jujitsu.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Thanks Chesselwit. I’m glad someone got it, I can’t post memes from my phone for some reason.

katz
katz
5 years ago

In the universe where we’re married and have kids, are our incomes and living spaces increased accordingly? That would have a large effect on whether it made me happier.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

My thoughts on kids: aww, how cute… uh, why are you sticky? Where’s your adult?… your kid is adorable but I have no clue what mystery substance they managed to get covered in. Subtext: and it’s not my fucking problem!

Adorable, lovable, sticky messes that I prefer to hand back to their parents before I get covered in bodily fluids.

ej
ej
5 years ago

Adorable, lovable, sticky messes that I prefer to hand back to their parents before I get covered in bodily fluids.

Agreed. This is why I love being an aunt. I get to do all sorts of fun things with my nephews, but I get to give them back to their parents. This is something that I still struggle with sometimes. I thought that I wanted to have kids, but it took me a long time to figure out that it was because I was told that I should want to have kids. I was socialized to think of getting married and having kids as a goal, which is kind of messed up. I still think about it sometimes, but the longer I wait (*gasp* I’m 31, unmarried and no kids), the more I think that it’s not something that I want. Pregnancy sounds awful. It would be a huge problem for my career because pregnant people aren’t allowed to work in microbiology labs. Not to mention the fact that I am finally realizing all the cool stuff I can do (like traveling and climbing mountains and long distance hiking) that would be difficult or impossible with kids. On top of that, my partner doesn’t really want kids either.

To the troll,
You don’t know me. You have no idea what makes me happy and I didn’t ask for your opinion.

Tessa
5 years ago

Tehy5: Wow, that blockquote mistake was epic.

Frankly, when men are mass-shamed for being comfortable on a subway (and in fact, 2 men were arrested for manspreading), it’s a bit of a problem.

Well, there you go. Men’s “comfort” comes first at the expense of others personal space and convenience. Women should just accept not being able to an open seat or having her personal space invaded because the man’s comfort is much more important. The perpetuation of the idea that men are allowed and are supposed to take up as much space as they can, while women are supposed to make herself as small and quiet as possible. Definitely not an issue feminists should even consider.

Tim Hunt made the crime of stating that, when you add women, workplace romances happen !!! Now of course you will point out that, if it was an all-women environment and you add men, same thing would happen? Of course. And Tim Hunt would agree with that. But he simply observed what had specifically happened in this case, when he was asked about it. By the way, losing honorary positions like ‘member of the royal council of science’, in which you get a lot of influence, and which he apparently valued highly, is a very unfortunate thing. Is money everything?

Well, this is a fun self perpetuated thing isn’t it? Not long ago, women were forbidden (both legally and socially) from working in science, so of course it’s women being “added.” Which automatically makes them the “other”. Then look at the many professional fields and practices that women were historically forbidden from even attempting. So in all these fields, women are automatically the other and a disruption to the men who get the default status simply because women were forbidden in the past. Even though romance goes both ways, because women were oppressed historically, it’s all their fault when romance happens in the workplace. This is just a means to keep women out. An excuse. Another part of the “no girls allowed” sign.

Well, if the “Royal Council of Science” doesn’t want a member of its council promoting segregation of scientists, then don’t they have the right to remove them?

Let’s see-I don’t dislike sarcasm, just that particular style of shitty humor. It’s just…not funny. Next, you absolutely did say that, but let’s move on to the new definition. Looking at how many, many trans people act, there absolutely are 2 distinct binary options. I guess now I understand what you meant with your wondrous non-binarity. Next up, do you think trans people wear certain kinds of clothes solely so people will perceive them as the correct gender, and have zero desire to wear those clothes otherwise? As for hormones… you wouldn’t need hormones if all you wanted was fake breasts and a vagina, so there is that.

You really don’t understand the gender roles and gender identity thing. Let’s try it this way. Let’s start from birth of cis-female child. She will identify that she’s a girl at a pretty young age… and guess what, she learns how “girls” should be through observation of the world around her. The socialization starts very young. Also, keep in mind, little kids don’t buy their own stuff… The parents provide them. This will also help shape a kids view of gender. So the girl grows up seeing what stuff is meant for girls, and what stuff is meant for boys. These are very learned.

This means there are two different factors involved here. Gender identity vs gender roles. An internal knowledge of ones gender, and the societal rules regarding gender. And gasp, people are affected by societal policing of gender. It can affect what interests one feels more comfortable pursuing. Like if a boy really wanted a toy cooking set, and also but slightly less wanted a baseball, he’d know which one is for boys, and even though he had more desire to play at cooking, he’d learn there would be much less social resistance to play baseball, so he’d choose that. These kinds of interactions between our desires and social pressures continue through out life.

Trans and non-binary people are also affected by social pressure of what it means to be a boy vs what it means to be a girl. This doesn’t mean the trans-woman’s lady brain automatically pushes her to girly things, but it’s an interaction between her perceptions growing up in a society with enforced gender roles. And how individual trans women express themselves is not as 1 dimensional as you believe. For non-binary people, because societal pressure tries to force a binary option, and doesn’t allow much wiggle room, when they are young and recognize their own non-binaryness, it’s confusing because the outside forces disagree. So they have competing forces of knowing they aren’t one or the other and society not only assigning them a role for them, but also telling them they’re wrong about their own perceptions.

Gender roles are just a bunch of traits assigned to a gender, like a stereotype that got so out of hand, it became a rule enforced on people. It harms people who do not express the traits enough, or try pursue an interest assigned to the other group. Let me math it up for you. For a man to go into engineering, he must have (i)nterest + (d)rive + (a)ptitude + (o)pportunity (opportunity can further be broken up and divided across other intersectional axes, like class and race) to reach (s)uccess. A woman can have the same interest, drive, aptitude and opportunity, but will also have a level of resistance to negative pressures faced solely on (g)ender. So for men it’s I+D+A+O= S and for women it’s I+D+A+O+G= S Depending on the field, the value of G is higher, as there are more social pressures. As a feminist, I’d like to get rid of the requirement for G and make the equations more equal. (As an intersectional feminist, I also want to get rid of many of the factors in O.)

You may think this is all wrong, but if it is, why is there even the need for policing it at all? Why would we need to enforce any role at all? Wouldn’t it just happen naturally without anybody telling others they’ll be “happier” if they have a baby? Or telling men what it takes to be manly? There would be no need to ever shame men for being too feminine, or to harass and insult women who try to invade “men’s occupations.” No reason to tell girls they don’t do math. No beating up boys who like dolls. In the past, there would have been no need to institutionalize women who got too uppity. Or kill women who wore pants, or tried to fight in wars. None of this would be needed because it wouldn’t happen. But no, we hold fast onto gender roles and even you insist that simultaneously that men act like men naturally and then say we need to start teaching boys to act like men again.

How about we eliminate what a particular gender is “supposed to do” and just let people follow their own interests?

Tessa
5 years ago
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

And even considering the people here who do have or do want to have kids… Shockingly, trollboy, different people like different things. We’re not some sort of robotic clone hivemind. What I want doesn’t affect Catalpa’s life any more than what you want affects my life, nor should it.

And even then, I still don’t fit into your magical biotroofs-approved roles. I’d love to have kids, but I’m also a goth nerd who works in STEM, plays video games all day and would rather cut my own hands off than wear a pink frilly dress. Oh shit! Different people like different things! =P

(And before the inevitable “CANDY CRUSH ISN’T A GAAAME! FAAAKE!” – well, it is a game, but that’s irrelevant. I’m playing Resident Evil 4 today.)

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

On the subject of manspreading: To me, it’s not even about them taking up space. Annoying, but I can deal with that. No, what I hate about manspreading is how spreaders all dangle their balls out of their shorts, fondle themselves through their pants or comment on how huuuge they are whether or not you’ve even looked in their fucking direction. ALL OF THEM. It’s not “First World problems,” it’s fucking sexual harassment.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Manspreading is a tasteless act which is completely without justification. Anyone who does it – especially on crowded public transport – is basically wearing a giant “I WAS IMPROPERLY SOCIALISED” sign.

I’m male. I have genitals large enough to terrify horses. I can sit with my fucking legs together. If I can do it, so can you.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

D-bags: “Women close your legs and also respect yourselves and others”
:says while sitting with their legs wide opened, taking up so much space when sitting around others and sometimes even fodeling themselves”

Lady spreading
http://images.elephantjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/unnamed7.jpg

Again with using women of color from other countries and other underprivileged women to shut up white women from America even though we have feminists working on these issues.
http://i.imgur.com/SS0hSkj.jpg
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/946/070/a13.jpg

Deviantart
http://t10.deviantart.net/d1-4uDLUVF3xtxDLX37sdGgvghg=/300×200/filters:fixed_height(100,100):origin()/pre01/a89d/th/pre/f/2015/072/1/d/mcheroism__manspreading_by_mexpiratered-d8krn5l.jpg
http://pre04.deviantart.net/70e3/th/pre/i/2015/014/f/3/man_spreading_by_anouchis-d8dv8gu.jpg

What?comment imagecomment image
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bfH2E2Unnoo/VKcQOPB0exI/AAAAAAAAEws/vstiVTiKQKg/s1600/10898219_972560216105502_8975929995234421778_n.jpg

Avfm meme
http://bodylanguageproject.com/articles/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Manspreading-Image.jpg
What men think of women blog
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Cskf34Rfsow/VZdNZ7__unI/AAAAAAAANys/L8rovgufQS4/s1600/manspreading.png

Something happened to men, let’s blame feminism but yeah women shouldn’t take up space either. Just because a woman does something wrong doesn’t make her a feminist just like any man does something wrong doesn’t mean he’s a mra.comment image
http://img.ifcdn.com/images/5cb56ec6d434cf9b44f187ad67e3ba97c1b5bcd7a1a373c5de03e578b0321412_1.jpg

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

My post was deleted ah well anyway about “man spreading” no one should take up space but the biggest problem are men and boys who would sexually harass women and girls by touching them, keep bothering them when she clearly wants to be left alone, show their genitals and even touch themselves. These aren’t “first world problems” this is disgusting and even terrifying and don’t even try to excuse this with that “biology” nonsense and then be hyprocritical/contradicting and complain about “misandry” and women/girls should take responsibility in the same breath.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Oh trolly5, you fail so hard. First with blockquoting (did you REALLY have to make it take up half the page??? You do realize no one bothered to read that, right?), and now this:

Unfortunately for you, nothing i’ve said is assholish.

Actually, EVERYTHING you’ve said here is assholish, because you are by definition an asshole. You came here to defend the idiocies of one Janet Fucking Bloomfield, who is also an asshole. How is THAT not assholish? Also, this:

I’m trying to pit trans people and cis feminists against each other because they are, in fact, against each other, but because feminists don’t hold within themselves a consistent ideology, they just make exceptions whenever what they say contradicts with trans people believe.

Well, at least you admitted you were trying to stir up trouble. Problem is, a lot of us (myself included) are cis feminists who heartily support trans rights, because we see how trans people’s struggles parallel and often intersect with our own, and we figure it is better to work on those together than apart. Also, we feminists (including trans people) often see prescribed gender roles, the kind you’re apparently very fond of, as at best merely arbitrary and ridiculous, when they’re not complete bullshit. Kind of puts a crimp in your tidy little theory about us there, doesn’t it?

And this, too, is intensely assholish:

So basically: Meaningless ad hominem, “Urban dictionary, the crowdsourced, well-known resource, is just trolls”, more meaningless ad hominem, “I don’t owe you anything !_!”.
If you disagree, the burden is upon you to explain why you disagree, instead of just tossing out a random curse.

Dude, you barged in here demanding elaborate explanations for our views, then discounted any that anyone took the time to give you. Why won’t simple ones (which are also true — we don’t owe you shit, remember) suffice you?

Also, my cussing you isn’t “random”, it is utterly intentional, and you fucking deserved it. You may fancy yourself some kind of brave neo-intellectual, but you really are a good ol’ garden variety idiot, the kind I’ve been demolishing online since the mid-1990s. (Yep, I’m one of those older women you so love to deride!) You came barging in here to defend the idiocies of an idiot with even more idiocies, and somehow the onus is on US to prove YOU wrong? That’s hilarious, troll. Why not just barge into someone else’s house, shit on their carpet, and then demand that the home-owners prove it was shit, and not roses, that you dropped there for them to pick up? Seriously, trolly…FUCK YOU.

You came in here looking for a fight, so don’t complain that you got one, and it isn’t on your picky widdle terms. The onus is on you, the troll, to prove yourself right, not us to prove you wrong.

Pick up your own damn shit, while you’re at it.

Urban Dictionary works on feminism because it doesn’t just take you at your word, it looks at your actions and dissects them. It also doesn’t rely on old perceptions and older women (i.e. real feminists).

Urban Dictionary is not more valid as a resource because it’s written mainly by teenage and early-20s online trolls. It is LESS valid for those very reasons. Young people are, after all, not renowned for their well-developed intellects or their superior judgment, only their trendiness. Trendiness does not cleverness make.

And outsiders defining feminism does not a valid working definition of feminism make, either. Feminists define feminism. Online trolls — juvenile ones in particular — do not. Capisce?

Oh, and UrbanDictionary is not the “brave resistance” to some “1984-style conspiracy”. Actually, it’s rather more like the constant rewriting and dumbing-down of language that takes place in the book. Clearly, you have either not read that book, or not understood what it actually says. Otherwise you would be aware of that.

And you wonder why we laugh at you? Dude, do yourself a huge favor and don’t come back until you’ve learned a good old-fashioned thing which most people value, and which smart people value highly. It’s called READING COMPREHENSION.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

If manspreading is a first world problem, than getting angry at people telling you to shut your damn legs and be courteous on public transit is really a first world problem.

Seriously. Feminists are not saying that manspreading is the worst problem to ever exist. We’re just saying that the tendency of men to take up multiple seats and press their legs into their (usually female) seatmates feels like a subtle act of aggression. The fact that internet anti-feminists have had a complete meltdown about the discussion just proves us right.

Just stay in your own seat, asshole. Your nads don’t need two or three seats.

Once this woman sat next to me on the bus. She had a toddler, a sizable purse and a diaper bag and she managed to keep herself and her stuff and her kid in her own seat. The diaper bag went on the floor beneath her, the kid and the purse on her lap. I always think of her whenever dudes complain about how simply can’t help but encroach on other’s personal space because it’s sooo uncomfortable for their fragile little bodies to keep their legs at hip width apart. If she can do it, they can do it.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

WWTH — ok, I’m impressed. I can do it with my climbing backpack, and laptop bag, but add a kid in? That takes both skill and good parenting, cuz toddlers squirm!

And idk about everywhere (duh), but in NYC it’s just flat not legal to take up two seats — be it your bag, feet, or massive balls. You paid for one seat, you get one seat, this is not difficult, and certainly not some anti-man feminist conspiracy!

sn0rkmaiden
5 years ago

Wow, Tehy5’s block quote demonstrated the spaghettification process! Would it be appropriate to draw parallels with troll logic and the dangers of entering black holes?

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Ok my comment is back, huh weird.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

@sn0rkmaiden

I don’t know, but I am experiencing a surge in my wish to avoid both troll’s questionable logic *and* black holes, should one ever happen to show up nearby enough to be a danger.

That spaghettified nonsense was painful just to scroll past. I can’t imagine what it would have done to someone trying to read it – ok yes I can, and it involves exploding heads.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Some of those women in that last MRA meme look like they’re trying to squeeze themselves and their stuff into the corner and not take up too much space. It sort of betrays that they’re actually mad at us for existing, we don’t actually have to be doing anything inconsiderate to incur their wrath.

katz
katz
5 years ago

Also, all those women appear to be on fairly empty cars. There aren’t any pictures with obviously uncomfortable men squished into the corner beside them and politely not saying anything.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

WWTH
And they say we are the entitled ones who overreact.

Katz
Theres no problem with people (no matter what gender) who spread out on the seats if there are no people around, the problem is that people (usually men and boys from what I see) are making others uncomfortable with sexually harassment and taking up room when it’s crowded and if it’s uncomfortable to sit down then stand up and leave some room for everybody.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Confession: I’ve been known to put bags on seats to keep pesky men from sitting (and/or spreading) near me. Also harassing. But I repeat myself. (Manspreading is harassment. It’s basically saying, “Here, Little Woman, fear my smelly balls!)

Clearly, I am a Terrible Person.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Bina
Yes you are a terrible person I mean how dare you think about your safety and making men take responsibility for their actions! Don’t you know if you don’t let men do whatever they want it’s misandry!? /s

Ok I’m sorry that’s a bad joke. I don’t know if it’s considered harassment.

I saw a picture of this woman on this train who is carrying some kind of metal square frame and all these idiots were calling her a feminist saying that she was doing it to keep men from harassing her, making fun of her saying they don’t want to harass her because she’s too ugly and girls who were laughing along with them saying stop blaming men for everything and more.

That made me sick and it just proves why we need feminism and it comes to show if women and girls get hurt they’re blamed/not believed and if they do something to protect themselves then they are man haters and paranoid, we can’t win. And I bet she wasn’t even a feminist or carrying that frame to protect herself maybe that frame was for some sort of project or something.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@Fruitloopsie
They proved none wanted to harass her… by harassing her. That’s grand.

But I have to admit I didn’t get the metal frame thing. How did it work?

Though I imagine it’s not really relevant. If a woman is upset about harassment, people will tell her to take measures to avoid it. When a woman does take measures, they say none would harass her anyway, or, more strangely, that what she’s doing is misandry.
When you see this sort of stuff, it makes you wonder if what these people actually want is for women to just take harassment without complaining.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Ugh, that is a dreadful story. For the thousand-millionth time, guys: SEXUAL HARASSMENT HAS SHIT-ALL TO DO WITH FUCKABILITY, YOU MORONS. (Sorry for the ALL CAPS shouting, but they’re so dense, you have to yell in order to penetrate their skulls.)

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Oh sorry I’m really bad at explaining/describing something. They’re metal attached to other metal to form into a box and she was standing inside the box. I suppose she did that because she was on her phone and so no one can steal it. The people were in the comments of the picture not in the picture itself.

It’s so terrible that anyone would take a picture and idiots would just mock and harass people like her. Its completely understandable and justified to be angry/make everything all caps because how stupid and unempathtic people can be.

Tessa
5 years ago

RosaDeLava:

When you see this sort of stuff, it makes you wonder if what these people actually want is for women to just take harassment without complaining.

Well, I think they don’t think it happens much because they don’t notice it or experience it. So they only hear about it when someone speaks up. And to them the problem would just go away if people would shut up about it, because for them, it will. If nobody talked about it, they’d happily go back of never noticing or experiencing it. Problem solved.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@Fruitloopsie
I see.
No joke – why is that even other people’s business? Unless it was taking up too much space or making noise, it should be fine – and it doesn’t seem like this is what was bothering the people in the comment section.

@Tessa
Yes, it probably will for them, but you’d think people would know that ignoring a problem won’t make it disappear, even if said problem doesn’t affect you.
What bothers me is that it seems like there’s a lot of telling others to protect themselves, then getting angry when those people actually do it.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Here you go it looked somewhat like this only without the blue glass top and the metal was white and thickercomment image

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

RosaDeLava
“why is that even other people’s business?”

People just want to be in others’ business and just be cruel.

“Unless it was taking up too much space or making noise, it should be fine”

The metal box was super small too so yeah it was fine.

Tessa & RosaDeLava
“Hey shut up about cancer! It will go away!” Doesn’t make sense huh?

ej
ej
5 years ago

Confession: I’ve been known to put bags on seats to keep pesky men from sitting (and/or spreading) near me. Also harassing.

I do this too, but if the train/bus starts to get crowded, I will move my stuff so that someone can use that seat. Usually, I just want to be left alone on public transit and I put my things on the next seat to try to make sure that happens. I, however, am not entitled enough to believe that I still deserve to use both seats when other passengers need a place to sit.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Not to “what about the menz” the conversation, but: Is there any behaviour that I, as a man (who wears a suit and tie most of the time when I’m on transport) should use in order to act as an ally when other men behave in such a fashion?

Moocow
Moocow
5 years ago

@katz

Also, all those women appear to be on fairly empty cars. There aren’t any pictures with obviously uncomfortable men squished into the corner beside them and politely not saying anything.

Apparently, to them, women are interchangeable with “air”. Seriously, if that’s the best they can find, all they did was prove that men really do take up space for no fucking reason far more often than women do.

Orion
5 years ago

EJ,

Sometimes I reclaim the space by going up to the spreader, saying “excuse me, may I sit down?”, and sitting next to them, (in the seat they tried to spread onto). Well, I don’t usually actually say all those words because as men, we have the ability to communicate through grunts, mumbles, and pointed looks. But that’s my strategy.

ej
ej
5 years ago

@EJ (TOO)
That’s actually a really tough question. It really depends on the situation. Calling other men out on harassment is good, but you don’t want to step in if the woman has the situation under control. Doing that takes the power away from her and tells the harasser that they can continue unless a man tells them not to. These guys need to learn to listen to women when we tell them to back off.

If she really wants/needs help, but feels like she can’t say anything, she may look around to see if anyone else notices what is going on. I’ve done this before and most people try to ignore the situation. The fact that no one seems to notice makes me doubt my feelings and think that it must not be that bad. Try to catch her eye. Let her know that you see what is going on. It may give her the confidence to speak up if she knows someone else sees the problem and will back her up if she says something. She may also give you a look that says “Please help me,” at which point, you want step in. Depending on the situation, I’d suggest talking to her first. Ask if she’s OK. That lets her know she has support and lets the harasser know that his behavior has been noticed. Often that is enough to stop the harassment because he’s been caught, even if it wasn’t directly addressed. By talking to her, you’re telling the harasser that you saw what he was doing. It also takes some of the power away from the harasser and gives it to the woman because she now has an opportunity to call him out, if she wants to. She may not have felt safe doing so on her own and she may not want to do it now, but you’ve given her an opportunity.

I’d also suggest trying to draw as little attention as possible. Making a big scene will probably make her more uncomfortable. In all likelihood, she just wants it to end and to get where she is going. If she wanted to make a scene, she probably would have done it on her own. It’s really important to let her take the lead in how you handle the situation. She already feels vulnerable and you don’t want to do anything to make her feel worse. Harassment is about power and you want to do whatever you can to give that power back to her (if that makes sense). I’m sorry for that vague statement, but it’s really difficult to give you specific instructions when each situation is going to be different.

TL;DR Step in only if necessary and let her take the lead in how you handle it.

Also, thank you for asking. Not everyone does and many men will fall into the situation in the first paragraph. They step in when they are not needed and unknowingly make the situation worse. So thanks for being willing to listen and be a better ally.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Thank you, ej (The Original One).

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@Orion:
I’ve done things like that a few times; sometimes it helps and sometimes it makes it worse by making the manspreader feel as though he has to escalate in order to avoid looking weak in front of a woman. As always with humans, there’s no easy heuristic.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

What bothers me is that it seems like there’s a lot of telling others to protect themselves, then getting angry when those people actually do it.

Rape culture 101. Women must take responsibility for not “getting raped” but not actually do anything about it in a practical sense. Because then we’re accusing all men of being rapists…somehow.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Women must take responsibility for not “getting raped” but not actually do anything about it in a practical sense. Because then we’re accusing all men of being rapists…somehow.

Rape Culture Dudes: “Don’t be a slut…OR dress like one! If you are (or do), you’re Asking For It! Learn to fight and scream! Don’t be a victim!…Hey! Why are you fighting me and screaming? NOTALLMEN!!!”

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@Fruitloopsie
This book looks really uncomfortable to wear, though 😀

@Sunnysombrera & Bina
We’re supposed to be afraid, but not really, because then we’ll upset the menz. Do these people not see how those are two sides of the same coin?

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

@Rosa: yup.

BTW, back to the original topic, it looks like Judgy is all wet about a lot of things. Including, you know, all those sciency, inventive menz. Women invented computer programming, and discovered both nuclear fission (without which the Hadron Collider would be impossible) AND the DNA helix.

But yeah, let’s just give ALL THE CREDIT to those menz. Because we wouldn’t want to, you know, hurt their delicate manly feelings or anything that would make them dislike us!

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Bina

How can you list women inventors without including Hedy Lammar and Barbara Cartland!?

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Blame Mother Jones, Alan…they neglected them! And Admiral Grace Hopper, too.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

We’re supposed to be afraid, but not really, because then we’ll upset the menz. Do these people not see how those are two sides of the same coin?

Oh, they know. That’s the point. Keeping us under control through impossible demands.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

@Bina
“If women don’t want to get raped, they shouldn’t go home with a man they only just met at a bar. But anyway – hey hot stuff, how about we catch a ride back to my place to chill? What do you mean no? It’s not like I’m gonna rape you, I just want to hang out! How could you think such a thing? Bitch.”

(I know this sounds very Roosh-esque and I was going to name it as such, except that he actually does rape women once he gets them home.)

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

“If women don’t want to get raped, they shouldn’t go home with a man they only just met at a bar. But anyway – hey hot stuff, how about we catch a ride back to my place to chill? What do you mean no? It’s not like I’m gonna rape you, I just want to hang out! How could you think such a thing? Bitch.”

(I know this sounds very Roosh-esque and I was going to name it as such, except that he actually does rape women once he gets them home.)

As, in fact, do most guys who talk like that. But don’t hurt their fragile manfeelings by calling that RAPE!