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JudgyBitch: Women make babies, and men make Large Hadron Colliders

Legos for girls: Not a new idea (from a lego ad in the 1980s)
Legos for girls: Not a new idea (from a lego ad in the 1980s)

So our old friend Janet “JudgyBitch” Bloomfield has written a rather silly post on how men are a bunch of STEM geniuses while women are basically designed to make babies. (On average.)

You’ve heard all this nonsense before, I am sure:

Human achievement depends on the tenacity and ingenuity of men, and their willingness to shoot for the moon (or a comet). Our mastery of the human condition, an end to suffering and poverty and disease and destitution requires technology. Water doesn’t magically clean itself, food doesn’t spring forth from the Earth without coaxing (at least not in sufficient amounts to feed all of us), the oceans do not replenish, diseases do not cure themselves and our ability to communicate and connect with each other, from one side of the planet to the other, all depends on technology.

Technology is designed, built, installed, maintained, repaired and operated almost exclusively by men. Without men, we would be living in grass huts, eating mud.

I’ll give her credit for at least suggesting a slightly novel “solution” to women (allegedly) being a bunch of stupid-heads compared to men. And by “novel” I mean “novel” only to MRAs.

Here is what I propose: we socialize girls to be more like men, and more like exceptionally intelligent men, in particular.

As she sees it, that means (among other things) making girls play with legos instead of Barbies (or any other traditionally girly toys), forcing them all to play Dungeons & Dragons (no, really), and requiring that they

study logic and rhetoric and traditional game theory, to sharpen their ability to work through a problem using reason and the empirical method.

Huh. I’m thinking that most of the dudes in the Men’s Rights movement must have slept through that part of their male socialization.

JB’s proposals are weirdly totalitarian, envisioning a mandatory one-size-fits-all approach to education for girls. And the misogyny underlying her glorification of “male” ways of thinking is fairly obvious. Her attempts to challenge traditionally gendered ways of raising girls fall more than a few steps short of feminism.

Sure, feminists have long fought against the pervasive gendering of toys. But they’re also into, you know, kids making choices for themselves. Encouraging girls to play with legos? Great! Forcing all girls to play exclusively with Legos, because you want them to become STEM geniuses? Not so great. Some girls want to play with legos; others prefer dolls. As do some boys.

For what it’s worth, JB describes her proposal as, yes, a “modest proposal,” so it’s not clear if she actually thinks that raising girls the same way as boys is a good idea, or if it’s one akin to eating babies.

Speaking of babies, here’s my favorite line in her post:

[T]he ultimate expression of femininity is a baby, and the ultimate expression of masculinity is the Large Hadron Collider.

Assuming this is true — and Janet Boomfield said it, so it must be! — just imagine what humans could accomplish if men and women worked together.

Yes, I’m talking about the ultimate in technology: the Large Baby Collider.

Oh, wait, we already have one of those; it’s called the Men’s Rights Movement.

But that’s a pretty primitive model. Here’s a prototype for an improved Large Baby Collider. It’s still a long way away from perfect — you may notice that half of the babies have been replaced by dogs — but it’s still a wobbly step in the right direction.

H/T — @TakedownMRAs

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Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Oh wait, I found an example of Trolly’s “anyone with a brain”:

http://ct.weirdnutdaily.com/ol/wn/sw/userpics/funny_pictures/43.jpg

Don’t say I never do anything for your, Trolly.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

No one mentioned you and your wonderful non-binarity, so why are you shoving it in here? Seriously, this has nothing to do with my argument at all.

1. This is like bringing up vegetables then getting offended when somebody mentions carrots.

2. Even the usual simplifications are clearly waaay too complicated for your idiotic ass, so to simplify it even more: Gender identity is biological, gender roles are social, and they’re not the same thing.

3. Oh look, yet another case of a right-wing shitbag attempting to use SJ language and failing miserably. It hasn’t worked the previous 98342987534 times, why do you think it’s going to work this time? When you can’t even pretend to not be grossly transphobic for two whole posts?

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

*you*

I CAN type when it’s not late at night, dammit.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

Bina, can I steal “witless wondertwit”? As may be apparent I dig aliteration.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

By all means, Argenti, steal away! (Wondertwit Powers — ACTIVATE! Form of: A SEALION!)

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

I would like to dissect Trolly myself, but it looks like everyone else here already did a good job, and Trolly sucks at basic WordPress HTML and likes to hit enter after quotation marks, so I can’t really parse where their words begin after quotes.

Tessa
Tessa
5 years ago

No one mentioned you and your wonderful non-binarity, so why are you shoving it in here? Seriously, this has nothing to do with my argument at all.

Also, I don’t appreciate your… “And now i’ve oversimplified dysphoria for you!’. You social justice types have decided it’s the correct …humor style, or something…it’s not very humorous, and also it’s douchey, cut it out and tell your friends to cut it out too

You know… I was totally going to switch camps and see the light of what you’re saying, but then you got so insulting and aggressive here, I just couldn’t. If only you were just tad nicer to us, you’d have had a convert. Better luck next time.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Gender identity is biological, gender roles are social, and they’re not the same thing.

Bingo. I’m a cis woman, which is to say biologically female and female-identified as well, and yet I don’t play the social role marked “feminine” so 100%. I haven’t had a baby, and I don’t care to, so I had my tubes tied without regrets. Any maternal impulses I may have are directed at cats, and I’m quite satisfied with that, and don’t feel traumatized or pathological in the least. I wear pink and ruffles occasionally, but always on my own terms. I cuss like a sailor and don’t fucking apologize for that (because I enunciate “fucking” like a fucking lady). And I gag at any perfume that smells like fruity candy or vanilla cake.

I guess I am the example Trolly asked for (but no doubt won’t accept) that his and Judgy’s concept of Womanhood is simply all wet.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

>block quoteblockquote<

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Grr I messed up let me try again

Pro Tip: To quote before the part you want to quote type in (less than sign)blockquote(greater than sign) and then after the part you want quoted it’s (less than sign)/blockquote(greater than sign)

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

:gasp: yay! My first blockquote! Thanks Tessa!

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

So would this be an inappropriate time to mention that “political jujitsu” and “internet pants” exist and have been defined on the urban dictionary thanks to me?

I mean, a derail with a minor tie in to something briefly mentioned is more entertaining than the ridiculousness wherein said brief mention happened to have been located.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

Wouldn’t smaller tear ducts create less tears?

Tessa
Tessa
5 years ago

Here is what Rebecca Watson said about the tear duct thingie… It doesn’t exactly “prove him right” as tehy5 suggested:

As for his point about women in labs being more apt to cry, you know what? Women probably do cry more than men in the lab, since women probably cry more in general for both social and physiological reasons. We raise boys to think of crying as a shameful thing and reward them for sucking it up, emotionally speaking, the same way that Hunt is punishing women now for not sucking it up enough.

There’s also a physical reason: women have smaller tear ducts than men, which makes it more difficult to hold back a tear once those ducts are all full.

And then there’s the fact that women seem to have a lot more to cry about. For a start, there’s the possibility of working with people like Tim Hunt. A recent study published by Harvard Business Review found that the majority of women in STEM fields report needing to constantly prove their competence more often than their peers and have been discouraged from displaying “masculine” behaviors like speaking their minds and being decisive.

About half of black and Latina women in STEM have been mistaken for administrative or custodial staff, and nearly half of Asian American women felt pressured to play a stereotypically feminine role in the office or lab.

Kootiepatra
5 years ago

Omg. The troll seriously argued that Urban Dictionary was better than a real dictionary. As part of a real argument. Which he expected other people to believe.

I don’t know the last time I had such a good laugh. Hee.

Newt
Newt
5 years ago

390 word article; by my count, 226 of those words are in sentences with ad hominems or outright insults.

Please show your working — and what you understand by “ad hominem”. Do you think “Janet Bloomfield said it, so it must be true” counts?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

I’m curious, but also at work and so don’t want to access urbandictionary… what are internet pants, msexceptiontotherule?

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Anders Breivik thought reading Wikipedia should replace university education. This kind of thing seems to be common with reactionary shit stains. Maybe because they are too stupid to hack it, but because white cishet men are automatically the smartest and the bestest, the problem must lie with elitist books and institutions, not with them.

franticcaps
franticcaps
5 years ago

Urban Dictionary responds to what is really going on in our society and social media today, rather than what most people believe.

Except that…you get that dictionaries aren’t compiled by slavishly referring to the definitions of words set down on tablets of stone in bygone centuries, right? There are these people called ‘lexicographers’ whose job it is to monitor the way in which people use language so that dictionaries can be updated.

Orion
5 years ago

feminists are socializing boys to be like women

Could you give few examples of what you mean by this? I literally have no idea what you are getting at.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ fruitloopsie

Indeed, and as our friend appears to be missing, dictionaries definitions are decided by common usage so

what is really going on

and

what most people believe

are not just the actual test but also synonymous

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Could you give few examples of what you mean by this? I literally have no idea what you are getting at.

Pretty sure Trolly5 is complaining that “too many” women are now teaching their sons to be polite and respectful toward others, instead of just taking what they want like good little Alpha Male™ brutes. And to be in touch with their emotions and expressing them accordingly, instead of just transmogrifying everything into Alpha Male Rage™ and Alpha Male Sulks™.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Anders Breivik thought reading Wikipedia should replace university education. This kind of thing seems to be common with reactionary shit stains. Maybe because they are too stupid to hack it, but because white cishet men are automatically the smartest and the bestest, the problem must lie with elitist books and institutions, not with them.

Sounds about right. Right-wing extremist paranoia always insists that everyone else is to blame, and that the ‘winger, by contrast, is a perfect paragon of whatever values they espouse. Even when they suck at everything, including that.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

Anders Breivik thought reading Wikipedia should replace university education.

what

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

And then there’s the fact that women seem to have a lot more to cry about. For a start, there’s the possibility of working with people like Tim Hunt. A recent study published by Harvard Business Review found that the majority of women in STEM fields report needing to constantly prove their competence more often than their peers and have been discouraged from displaying “masculine” behaviors like speaking their minds and being decisive.

About half of black and Latina women in STEM have been mistaken for administrative or custodial staff, and nearly half of Asian American women felt pressured to play a stereotypically feminine role in the office or lab.

And let’s not forget that women’s tears can be of frustration and even anger, not just mopey, girly sadness. When you’re not even allowed to express frustration and anger the same way as the guys, what is there left to do but cry in rage?

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@Argenti
In the episode, the former director of the local school is replaced by what I guess you could call a “PC bro” – He looks and behaves like a charicatural fratboy, but has the most charicatural SJW concerns. He’s not the only one – there’s a frathouse full of them.
Though I’m also not sure what Tehy expects. We don’t actually throw each other against walls because of disagreements.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

@Tehy
You know, someone has already asked this, but you haven’t answered (which doesn’t help your case when you say you just want to have a debate): Why does there need to be an ultimate expression of femininity and masculinity?
But if you want to know why we reject those two exemples, I’ll compile they things we’ve already said about it in the comments:
1 – Babies are usually made with the conjoined effort of a man and a woman (even if the woman has to bear the worst of it because pregnancy). Raising a child also usually requires the help of more than one person.
2 – The Large Hadron Collider was not created and is not opperated solely by men.
3 – Most people don’t raise children or study physics because they want to validate their gender.
4 – We don’t buy into the whole “Women can’t science LOL” thing.
5 – A large number of women have babies, whereas only a small fraction of men have worked with the LHC. Someone here even crunched the numbers, look it up.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

5 – A large number of women have babies, whereas only a small fraction of men have worked with the LHC. Someone here even crunched the numbers, look it up.

That was me, and I’ll spare him the effort of looking it up. One man in every half million has worked on the LHC.

Here are some other ratios of 500,000 to one, to put it in perspective.

That’s the proportion of the world’s population that China arrests every year for web security violations, or the proportion of humanity which joined the UK Labour Party immediately after Corbyn became leader, or the proportion of humanity which personally attended the Pope’s address from the White House.

On a smaller scale, that’s the proportion of Atlantans who are currently mayor, or the proportion of Londoners made up by the players on both teams of a cricket match, or the proportion of Americans that can fit in a large nightclub.

If that proportion of British people each gave £1, we could pay two minimum wage person for an eight-hour shift each as long as they didn’t need NI contributions.

That’s the ratio of springbok (which are graceful, wild animals) to cattle (which are not.) That’s the ratio by which a single tiger would be outnumbered if it were surrounded by every American Bison which still exists.

That’s the ratio of two Lego bricks to the depth of the Mariana Trench, or 32 Lego bricks (careful now, stack them properly!) to low earth orbit.

It is a statistically insignificant number. To a first approximation and speaking as a scientist, nobody built the LHC.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ EJ

I still have hope that eventually they’ll spark up the LHC to such a potential that a time machine will spontaneously spring into existence.

(I subscribe to the theory that you can send a time machine back from the future so long as there’s a suitable back stop event)

chesselwitt
chesselwitt
5 years ago

“Witless wondertwit” is my new favorite phrase.

tehy5
5 years ago

Oooh! We haven’t gotten a tone policing troll in what, 48 whole hours?

It really doesn’t matter whether you use mild words. The content of what you say is what matter. Saying assholish things in a civil tone is still being an asshole. Trying to pit trans people and cis feminists against each other to defend the rantings of a misogynist is an asshole thing to do, no matter what tone you do it in.

Also, who asked you to have a debate with us? Nobody here did. We keep anti-feminist trolls around to mock until we either get bored with you and have you banned or until you’ve been fed so much you burst and flounce. This isn’t a debating site. It’s a mocking misogyny site. You’re not entitle to a calm debate here just because you decided you want one. Don’t like it? Post elsewhere.’

Unfortunately for you, nothing i’ve said is assholish. I’m trying to pit trans people and cis feminists against each other because they are, in fact, against each other, but because feminists don’t hold within themselves a consistent ideology, they just make exceptions whenever what they say contradicts with trans people believe.

I’m not entitled to anything, but that doesn’t make you any less of a prick, does it now?

Well… About first world problems, if it’s so insignificant that we shouldn’t care, why should you? Is manspreading so important to you that you need to defend it?

And Tim Hunt didn’t simply say “women cry more.” What a horrible misrepresentation. He said: “Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry.”
This is about men and women working in labs together, that women shouldn’t work in labs with men because they are a distraction to the men doing real science. Even though problems usually arise from how women are treated, somehow it’s the fault of the women for being there. That is the problem, not that he says women simply “cry more.” And he did that at an invitation-only lunch in honour of women in science!
And before you say he was joking, after the fact in his “apology” he also stated:

“I did mean the part about having trouble with girls. It is true that I have fallen in love with people in the lab and that people in the lab have fallen in love with me. It’s very disruptive to science, because it’s terribly important in the lab that people are on a level playing, and I’ve found that these emotional entanglements have made life difficult.

I’m really really sorry that I caused any offense, that’s awful. I just meant to be honest, actually.”

So yeah… And he wasn’t fired, they were honorary positions with no income.

Protip: To quote before the part you want to quote type in (less than sign)blockquote(greater than sign) and then after the part you want quoted it’s (less than sign)/blockquote(greater than sign)

Frankly, when men are mass-shamed for being comfortable on a subway (and in fact, 2 men were arrested for manspreading), it’s a bit of a problem.

Tim Hunt made the crime of stating that, when you add women, workplace romances happen !!! Now of course you will point out that, if it was an all-women environment and you add men, same thing would happen? Of course. And Tim Hunt would agree with that. But he simply observed what had specifically happened in this case, when he was asked about it. By the way, losing honorary positions like ‘member of the royal council of science’, in which you get a lot of influence, and which he apparently valued highly, is a very unfortunate thing. Is money everything?

BORING COMIC

Bonus points for the casual misogyny.

I’m sorry, is this your house? Are you trying to sleep? Or is this a casual forum for discussion?

I’d understand the discomfort were I to literally stalk you around, but this is just me posting on one platform disagreeing with you civilly. And I think it’s worth noting that you can’t…really do the same, because you’re wrong and I’m not. If i had said to you ‘I could do without women’, wouldn’t you want to open a discussion with me about that? (Well, no, you’d just curse me out. But that speaks to your character, not the general human reaction.)

Judgy Bozo’s “point”, if she has one, is plainly situated at the top of her skull. As is yours, apparently. Which makes it rather convenient for inserting up her ass, as you both plainly seem awfully fond of doing.

Also, LOL @ your Urban Dictionary brainstorm. Yes, let’s use ignorant trolls’ ever-shifting definitions of everything as our gold standard of reference. Never mind that it’s mostly dross!

And another thing: Who’s this “anyone with a brain” you’re referring to? Surely not you and Judgy. You’re both witless wondertwits.

By the way;

‘The ultimate expression of femininity is a baby, and the ultimate expression of masculinity is the Large Hadron Collider.’

If you disagree with this, then provide alternates to these two ultimate expressions, and back them up. And remember, if you disagree that ‘femininity’ and ‘masculinity’ are things, you need to explain how Caitlyn Jenner can have a ‘female brain’, or else the PC bros will be after you in full force :].

Oh, fuck you. I can disagree with your (and her) bullshit without providing examples. I don’t owe you shit, troll.

So basically: Meaningless ad hominem, “Urban dictionary, the crowdsourced, well-known resource, is just trolls”, more meaningless ad hominem, “I don’t owe you anything !_!”.

If you disagree, the burden is upon you to explain why you disagree, instead of just tossing out a random curse.

Aw, if you don’t like sarcasm, you should maybe read the byline before commenting! Somewhere in that “we mock misogyny” is the clear implication that there will be sarcasm.

And no, I didn’t say it was *just* a matter of biology, I said it wasn’t simply a matter of wanting to fill the “opposite” gender’s role, nor a matter as simple as there being two distinct binary options. Which is why my gender is relevant oh polite one! Because no, masculinity and femininity aren’t discrete things. And no shit Sherlock, things like clothing go into what gender people perceive you to be! I’d have never guessed that people would be more likely to call me ma’am in a shirt and heels and sir in a suit and tie, it’s not even remotely like I’ve done both!

As for hormones… go get a science book if you really don’t understand how hormones affect your body. Like, seriously, I can’t even with that one.

RosaDeLava — should’ve known it was a pop culture reference, I’m rubbish at those! Still haven’t the foggiest wtf our new friend meant though.

Anyone got the bingo cards? Cuz this one has trans friends y’all!

Let’s see-I don’t dislike sarcasm, just that particular style of shitty humor. It’s just…not funny. Next, you absolutely did say that, but let’s move on to the new definition. Looking at how many, many trans people act, there absolutely are 2 distinct binary options. I guess now I understand what you meant with your wondrous non-binarity. Next up, do you think trans people wear certain kinds of clothes solely so people will perceive them as the correct gender, and have zero desire to wear those clothes otherwise? As for hormones… you wouldn’t need hormones if all you wanted was fake breasts and a vagina, so there is that.

Oh wait, I found an example of Trolly’s “anyone with a brain”:

-hilarious picture-

Don’t say I never do anything for your, Trolly.

I notice that, so far, about 1 person has attempted to engage me in meaningful dialogue. And it’s been somewhat interesting, actually. I have no problem with people shit talking on the internet, but it is rather like flies buzzing around my face.

No one mentioned you and your wonderful non-binarity, so why are you shoving it in here? Seriously, this has nothing to do with my argument at all.

1. This is like bringing up vegetables then getting offended when somebody mentions carrots.

2. Even the usual simplifications are clearly waaay too complicated for your idiotic ass, so to simplify it even more: Gender identity is biological, gender roles are social, and they’re not the same thing.

3. Oh look, yet another case of a right-wing shitbag attempting to use SJ language and failing miserably. It hasn’t worked the previous 98342987534 times, why do you think it’s going to work this time? When you can’t even pretend to not be grossly transphobic for two whole posts?

No, it’s like arguing about peppers, then getting annoyed when somebody brings up their personal love of carrots.

I’ll simplify it even more: gender identity seems to correlate quite heavily with gender roles

What SJ language? Non-binarity may or may not be an existing word, and I could care less. Throwing around words like ‘transphobic’ cheapens their meaning. As someone who actually cares about trans people, I’d prefer if you didn’t weaken the only true weapon they have on your own personal whims :]

You know… I was totally going to switch camps and see the light of what you’re saying, but then you got so insulting and aggressive here, I just couldn’t. If only you were just tad nicer to us, you’d have had a convert. Better luck next time.

You know…no you weren’t. And if you really had a problem with aggressiveness, wouldn’t you have gotten off the ‘fuck you’ train that this entire blog is on already? Better luck next time hun :]

Bingo. I’m a cis woman, which is to say biologically female and female-identified as well, and yet I don’t play the social role marked “feminine” so 100%. I haven’t had a baby, and I don’t care to, so I had my tubes tied without regrets. Any maternal impulses I may have are directed at cats, and I’m quite satisfied with that, and don’t feel traumatized or pathological in the least. I wear pink and ruffles occasionally, but always on my own terms. I cuss like a sailor and don’t fucking apologize for that (because I enunciate “fucking” like a fucking lady). And I gag at any perfume that smells like fruity candy or vanilla cake.

I guess I am the example Trolly asked for (but no doubt won’t accept) that his and Judgy’s concept of Womanhood is simply all wet.

Deviations from the norm are not something to be demonized, made fun of, or any such. But they shouldn’t be taken as the norm, either. Your path is not the path for most women, and telling them to take it may not leave them as happy as you.

Here’s a question:If you were married and with kids, would you be happier? I bet you would.

‘MISOGYNY’ – no. I’d be happier married and with kids, too. I think most people would. But I think women, more than men, have the maternal instincts and impulse. Why deny yourself happiness, just because happiness is normal?

Here is what Rebecca Watson said about the tear duct thingie… It doesn’t exactly “prove him right” as tehy5 suggested:

And you have made the same mistake Rebecca Watson made, which is the sad part.

Tim Hunt didn’t say women cry more because they are weaker, less than men…anything like that. He just said they cried more. And you, just like Rebecca Watson, heard a simple statement of fact, and started to reconstruct it until an agreement became a refutation. Don’t you see how you are seeing sexism where none exists?

Omg. The troll seriously argued that Urban Dictionary was better than a real dictionary. As part of a real argument. Which he expected other people to believe.

I don’t know the last time I had such a good laugh. Hee.

I bet you didn’t actually laugh, but are pretending to be amused because it’s one of those really good argumentative tools “this is so ridiculous, i won’t even counter it”. Urban Dictionary works on feminism because it doesn’t just take you at your word, it looks at your actions and dissects them. It also doesn’t rely on old perceptions and older women (i.e. real feminists).

Please show your working — and what you understand by “ad hominem”. Do you think “Janet Bloomfield said it, so it must be true” counts?

I hate to be the ‘educate yourself’ type but I really don’t feel like re-enacting that labor for you. my examples are

I’ll give her credit for at least suggesting a slightly novel “solution” to women (allegedly) being a bunch of stupid-heads compared to men. And by “novel” I mean “novel” only to MRAs.

Assuming this is true — and Janet Boomfield said it, so it must be! — just imagine what humans could accomplish if men and women worked together.

Yes, I’m talking about the ultimate in technology: the Large Baby Collider.

Oh, wait, we already have one of those; it’s called the Men’s Rights Movement.

and so forth. Basically, any sentence with an insult, or which doesn’t engage with the argument while ridiculing it.

Anders Breivik thought reading Wikipedia should replace university education. This kind of thing seems to be common with reactionary shit stains. Maybe because they are too stupid to hack it, but because white cishet men are automatically the smartest and the bestest, the problem must lie with elitist books and institutions, not with them.

What exactly are you talking about ????

Webster’s dictionary isn’t suited to drill down into the social media interactions of people. Not to mention, even if Webster’s knows the true definition of feminism as it exists at this point, they wouldn’t use it for fear of Feminist Outrage slashing their profits. Frankly, Anders sounds fairly intelligent; if you are memorizing something and it’s on Wikipedia, then why are you in the class at all? But this is more of a critique on colleges / schools in general (not enough time spent critically thinking or understanding, too much time spent memorizing facts).

Except that…you get that dictionaries aren’t compiled by slavishly referring to the definitions of words set down on tablets of stone in bygone centuries, right? There are these people called ‘lexicographers’ whose job it is to monitor the way in which people use language so that dictionaries can be updated.

And I submit that those people don’t look very deeply into the actions of certain movements, especially controversial ones. Even if feminism wasn’t apt to try and destroy Webster for telling the truth, I doubt it would be able to regardless. Unfortunately, words change swiftly and for many older people it’s tough to catch up.

Could you give few examples of what you mean by this? I literally have no idea what you are getting at.

Pretty sure Trolly5 is complaining that “too many” women are now teaching their sons to be polite and respectful toward others, instead of just taking what they want like good little Alpha Male™ brutes. And to be in touch with their emotions and expressing them accordingly, instead of just transmogrifying everything into Alpha Male Rage™ and Alpha Male Sulks™.

My mother taught me to be polite and respectful to others, and I have no problem with that, nor it happening to others. The issue is, boys are being taught not to play (notice, PLAY) roughly, not to be hyperactive, et cetera. When 15% of boys are on Ritalin, it’s hard to wonder if that’s not because they’re ‘defective girls’. Frankly, I don’t have that much first-hand evidence of this occurring, but I have heard people I trust talk and write about it.

Indeed, and as our friend appears to be missing, dictionaries definitions are decided by common usage so

what is really going on

and

what most people believe

are not just the actual test but also synonymous

How very 1984 of you. Specifically, “if the party believes, and everyone believes along with them out of fear, it is so”

Now, i’ll subtract the fear part, but it’s still not a solid truth. If most people believe something about, say, christianity, but the believers and priests don’t act this out, then what is the truth?

And let’s not forget that women’s tears can be of frustration and even anger, not just mopey, girly sadness. When you’re not even allowed to express frustration and anger the same way as the guys, what is there left to do but cry in rage?

Would you like to provide some proof that women aren’t allowed to express frustration and anger in the same way as the guys? I haven’t ever seen that.

@Tehy
You know, someone has already asked this, but you haven’t answered (which doesn’t help your case when you say you just want to have a debate): Why does there need to be an ultimate expression of femininity and masculinity?
But if you want to know why we reject those two exemples, I’ll compile they things we’ve already said about it in the comments:
1 – Babies are usually made with the conjoined effort of a man and a woman (even if the woman has to bear the worst of it because pregnancy). Raising a child also usually requires the help of more than one person.
2 – The Large Hadron Collider was not created and is not opperated solely by men.
3 – Most people don’t raise children or study physics because they want to validate their gender.
4 – We don’t buy into the whole “Women can’t science LOL” thing.
5 – A large number of women have babies, whereas only a small fraction of men have worked with the LHC. Someone here even crunched the numbers, look it up.

You’re correct; I actually did see that answer before I wrote my post, but didn’t wish to engage further at the moment. However, ‘not being willing to enact that labor’ is a weakness, not something to be trumpeted, so I shall redouble my efforts in future.

Babies are usually made with a slight input from a man and then constructed entirely by a woman; from there, they may well be raised entirely by her as well.

The LHC was probably conceived of and created mostly by men.

Not sure what this point means-they don’t do it to validate their gender, they do it because their gender (i.e. gendered brain) calls them to do it

Neither do I LOL. Women who science are outside of the norm, which I have maintained and will always maintain is not a negative thing. Still true, though

I think LHC is self-evidently a stand-in for any large, important creation. Otherwise, there would have been no ultimate expression of masculinity for millions of years.

I think there must be an ultimate expression of masculinity and femininity because I believe that those bundles of desires, understanding of the world, perspective, etc, are shared by most men and women. Therefore, they will find ultimate expressions. There can, of course, be multiple different ultimate expressions, but I find this to be a remote possibility.

Final notes:

Just because you have the right to be an asshole, does that make it okay?

There were a few small sentences I didn’t respond to. Sorry, but they were mostly, like, ad hominem and stuff.

Remember – valuable and vital are not congruent. Gold is valuable, water is vital. There’s not much gold, so you can’t replace it easily. Meanwhile, there’s a ton of water, so you can replace it easily-thus, gold is valuable. But without water, you would die-thus, water is vital.

Motherhood is vital, LHC is valuable. Don’t take for granted things that are vital, just because they aren’t valuable.

tehy5
5 years ago

Oooh! We haven’t gotten a tone policing troll in what, 48 whole hours?
It really doesn’t matter whether you use mild words. The content of what you say is what matter. Saying assholish things in a civil tone is still being an asshole. Trying to pit trans people and cis feminists against each other to defend the rantings of a misogynist is an asshole thing to do, no matter what tone you do it in.
Also, who asked you to have a debate with us? Nobody here did. We keep anti-feminist trolls around to mock until we either get bored with you and have you banned or until you’ve been fed so much you burst and flounce. This isn’t a debating site. It’s a mocking misogyny site. You’re not entitle to a calm debate here just because you decided you want one. Don’t like it? Post elsewhere.’

Unfortunately for you, nothing i’ve said is assholish. I’m trying to pit trans people and cis feminists against each other because they are, in fact, against each other, but because feminists don’t hold within themselves a consistent ideology, they just make exceptions whenever what they say contradicts with trans people believe.
I’m not entitled to anything, but that doesn’t make you any less of a prick, does it now?

Well… About first world problems, if it’s so insignificant that we shouldn’t care, why should you? Is manspreading so important to you that you need to defend it?
And Tim Hunt didn’t simply say “women cry more.” What a horrible misrepresentation. He said: “Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry.”
This is about men and women working in labs together, that women shouldn’t work in labs with men because they are a distraction to the men doing real science. Even though problems usually arise from how women are treated, somehow it’s the fault of the women for being there. That is the problem, not that he says women simply “cry more.” And he did that at an invitation-only lunch in honour of women in science!
And before you say he was joking, after the fact in his “apology” he also stated:
“I did mean the part about having trouble with girls. It is true that I have fallen in love with people in the lab and that people in the lab have fallen in love with me. It’s very disruptive to science, because it’s terribly important in the lab that people are on a level playing, and I’ve found that these emotional entanglements have made life difficult.
I’m really really sorry that I caused any offense, that’s awful. I just meant to be honest, actually.”
So yeah… And he wasn’t fired, they were honorary positions with no income.
Protip: To quote before the part you want to quote type in (less than sign)blockquote(greater than sign) and then after the part you want quoted it’s (less than sign)/blockquote(greater than sign)

Frankly, when men are mass-shamed for being comfortable on a subway (and in fact, 2 men were arrested for manspreading), it’s a bit of a problem.
Tim Hunt made the crime of stating that, when you add women, workplace romances happen !!! Now of course you will point out that, if it was an all-women environment and you add men, same thing would happen? Of course. And Tim Hunt would agree with that. But he simply observed what had specifically happened in this case, when he was asked about it. By the way, losing honorary positions like ‘member of the royal council of science’, in which you get a lot of influence, and which he apparently valued highly, is a very unfortunate thing. Is money everything?

BORING COMIC
Bonus points for the casual misogyny.

I’m sorry, is this your house? Are you trying to sleep? Or is this a casual forum for discussion?
I’d understand the discomfort were I to literally stalk you around, but this is just me posting on one platform disagreeing with you civilly. And I think it’s worth noting that you can’t…really do the same, because you’re wrong and I’m not. If i had said to you ‘I could do without women’, wouldn’t you want to open a discussion with me about that? (Well, no, you’d just curse me out. But that speaks to your character, not the general human reaction.)

Judgy Bozo’s “point”, if she has one, is plainly situated at the top of her skull. As is yours, apparently. Which makes it rather convenient for inserting up her ass, as you both plainly seem awfully fond of doing.
Also, LOL @ your Urban Dictionary brainstorm. Yes, let’s use ignorant trolls’ ever-shifting definitions of everything as our gold standard of reference. Never mind that it’s mostly dross!
And another thing: Who’s this “anyone with a brain” you’re referring to? Surely not you and Judgy. You’re both witless wondertwits.
By the way;
‘The ultimate expression of femininity is a baby, and the ultimate expression of masculinity is the Large Hadron Collider.’
If you disagree with this, then provide alternates to these two ultimate expressions, and back them up. And remember, if you disagree that ‘femininity’ and ‘masculinity’ are things, you need to explain how Caitlyn Jenner can have a ‘female brain’, or else the PC bros will be after you in full force :].
Oh, fuck you. I can disagree with your (and her) bullshit without providing examples. I don’t owe you shit, troll.

So basically: Meaningless ad hominem, “Urban dictionary, the crowdsourced, well-known resource, is just trolls”, more meaningless ad hominem, “I don’t owe you anything !_!”.
If you disagree, the burden is upon you to explain why you disagree, instead of just tossing out a random curse.

Aw, if you don’t like sarcasm, you should maybe read the byline before commenting! Somewhere in that “we mock misogyny” is the clear implication that there will be sarcasm.
And no, I didn’t say it was *just* a matter of biology, I said it wasn’t simply a matter of wanting to fill the “opposite” gender’s role, nor a matter as simple as there being two distinct binary options. Which is why my gender is relevant oh polite one! Because no, masculinity and femininity aren’t discrete things. And no shit Sherlock, things like clothing go into what gender people perceive you to be! I’d have never guessed that people would be more likely to call me ma’am in a shirt and heels and sir in a suit and tie, it’s not even remotely like I’ve done both!
As for hormones… go get a science book if you really don’t understand how hormones affect your body. Like, seriously, I can’t even with that one.
RosaDeLava — should’ve known it was a pop culture reference, I’m rubbish at those! Still haven’t the foggiest wtf our new friend meant though.
Anyone got the bingo cards? Cuz this one has trans friends y’all!

Let’s see-I don’t dislike sarcasm, just that particular style of shitty humor. It’s just…not funny. Next, you absolutely did say that, but let’s move on to the new definition. Looking at how many, many trans people act, there absolutely are 2 distinct binary options. I guess now I understand what you meant with your wondrous non-binarity. Next up, do you think trans people wear certain kinds of clothes solely so people will perceive them as the correct gender, and have zero desire to wear those clothes otherwise? As for hormones… you wouldn’t need hormones if all you wanted was fake breasts and a vagina, so there is that.

Oh wait, I found an example of Trolly’s “anyone with a brain”:
-hilarious picture-
Don’t say I never do anything for your, Trolly.

I notice that, so far, about 1 person has attempted to engage me in meaningful dialogue. And it’s been somewhat interesting, actually. I have no problem with people shit talking on the internet, but it is rather like flies buzzing around my face.
No one mentioned you and your wonderful non-binarity, so why are you shoving it in here? Seriously, this has nothing to do with my argument at all.

1. This is like bringing up vegetables then getting offended when somebody mentions carrots.
2. Even the usual simplifications are clearly waaay too complicated for your idiotic ass, so to simplify it even more: Gender identity is biological, gender roles are social, and they’re not the same thing.
3. Oh look, yet another case of a right-wing shitbag attempting to use SJ language and failing miserably. It hasn’t worked the previous 98342987534 times, why do you think it’s going to work this time? When you can’t even pretend to not be grossly transphobic for two whole posts?

No, it’s like arguing about peppers, then getting annoyed when somebody brings up their personal love of carrots.
I’ll simplify it even more: gender identity seems to correlate quite heavily with gender roles
What SJ language? Non-binarity may or may not be an existing word, and I could care less. Throwing around words like ‘transphobic’ cheapens their meaning. As someone who actually cares about trans people, I’d prefer if you didn’t weaken the only true weapon they have on your own personal whims :]

You know… I was totally going to switch camps and see the light of what you’re saying, but then you got so insulting and aggressive here, I just couldn’t. If only you were just tad nicer to us, you’d have had a convert. Better luck next time.

You know…no you weren’t. And if you really had a problem with aggressiveness, wouldn’t you have gotten off the ‘fuck you’ train that this entire blog is on already? Better luck next time hun :]

Bingo. I’m a cis woman, which is to say biologically female and female-identified as well, and yet I don’t play the social role marked “feminine” so 100%. I haven’t had a baby, and I don’t care to, so I had my tubes tied without regrets. Any maternal impulses I may have are directed at cats, and I’m quite satisfied with that, and don’t feel traumatized or pathological in the least. I wear pink and ruffles occasionally, but always on my own terms. I cuss like a sailor and don’t fucking apologize for that (because I enunciate “fucking” like a fucking lady). And I gag at any perfume that smells like fruity candy or vanilla cake.
I guess I am the example Trolly asked for (but no doubt won’t accept) that his and Judgy’s concept of Womanhood is simply all wet.

Deviations from the norm are not something to be demonized, made fun of, or any such. But they shouldn’t be taken as the norm, either. Your path is not the path for most women, and telling them to take it may not leave them as happy as you.
Here’s a question:If you were married and with kids, would you be happier? I bet you would.
‘MISOGYNY’ – no. I’d be happier married and with kids, too. I think most people would. But I think women, more than men, have the maternal instincts and impulse. Why deny yourself happiness, just because happiness is normal?

Here is what Rebecca Watson said about the tear duct thingie… It doesn’t exactly “prove him right” as tehy5 suggested:

And you have made the same mistake Rebecca Watson made, which is the sad part.
Tim Hunt didn’t say women cry more because they are weaker, less than men…anything like that. He just said they cried more. And you, just like Rebecca Watson, heard a simple statement of fact, and started to reconstruct it until an agreement became a refutation. Don’t you see how you are seeing sexism where none exists?

Omg. The troll seriously argued that Urban Dictionary was better than a real dictionary. As part of a real argument. Which he expected other people to believe.
I don’t know the last time I had such a good laugh. Hee.

I bet you didn’t actually laugh, but are pretending to be amused because it’s one of those really good argumentative tools “this is so ridiculous, i won’t even counter it”. Urban Dictionary works on feminism because it doesn’t just take you at your word, it looks at your actions and dissects them. It also doesn’t rely on old perceptions and older women (i.e. real feminists).

Please show your working — and what you understand by “ad hominem”. Do you think “Janet Bloomfield said it, so it must be true” counts?

I hate to be the ‘educate yourself’ type but I really don’t feel like re-enacting that labor for you. my examples are
“”
I’ll give her credit for at least suggesting a slightly novel “solution” to women (allegedly) being a bunch of stupid-heads compared to men. And by “novel” I mean “novel” only to MRAs.
Assuming this is true — and Janet Boomfield said it, so it must be! — just imagine what humans could accomplish if men and women worked together.
Yes, I’m talking about the ultimate in technology: the Large Baby Collider.
Oh, wait, we already have one of those; it’s called the Men’s Rights Movement.
“”

and so forth. Basically, any sentence with an insult, or which doesn’t engage with the argument while ridiculing it.

Anders Breivik thought reading Wikipedia should replace university education. This kind of thing seems to be common with reactionary shit stains. Maybe because they are too stupid to hack it, but because white cishet men are automatically the smartest and the bestest, the problem must lie with elitist books and institutions, not with them.

What exactly are you talking about ????
Webster’s dictionary isn’t suited to drill down into the social media interactions of people. Not to mention, even if Webster’s knows the true definition of feminism as it exists at this point, they wouldn’t use it for fear of Feminist Outrage slashing their profits. Frankly, Anders sounds fairly intelligent; if you are memorizing something and it’s on Wikipedia, then why are you in the class at all? But this is more of a critique on colleges / schools in general (not enough time spent critically thinking or understanding, too much time spent memorizing facts).

Except that…you get that dictionaries aren’t compiled by slavishly referring to the definitions of words set down on tablets of stone in bygone centuries, right? There are these people called ‘lexicographers’ whose job it is to monitor the way in which people use language so that dictionaries can be updated.

And I submit that those people don’t look very deeply into the actions of certain movements, especially controversial ones. Even if feminism wasn’t apt to try and destroy Webster for telling the truth, I doubt it would be able to regardless. Unfortunately, words change swiftly and for many older people it’s tough to catch up.
Could you give few examples of what you mean by this? I literally have no idea what you are getting at.

Pretty sure Trolly5 is complaining that “too many” women are now teaching their sons to be polite and respectful toward others, instead of just taking what they want like good little Alpha Male™brutes. And to be in touch with their emotions and expressing them accordingly, instead of just transmogrifying everything into Alpha Male Rage™and Alpha Male Sulks™.

My mother taught me to be polite and respectful to others, and I have no problem with that, nor it happening to others. The issue is, boys are being taught not to play (notice, PLAY) roughly, not to be hyperactive, et cetera. When 15% of boys are on Ritalin, it’s hard to wonder if that’s not because they’re ‘defective girls’. Frankly, I don’t have that much first-hand evidence of this occurring, but I have heard people I trust talk and write about it.

Indeed, and as our friend appears to be missing, dictionaries definitions are decided by common usage so
what is really going on
and
what most people believe
are not just the actual test but also synonymous

How very 1984 of you. Specifically, “if the party believes, and everyone believes along with them out of fear, it is so”
Now, i’ll subtract the fear part, but it’s still not a solid truth. If most people believe something about, say, christianity, but the believers and priests don’t act this out, then what is the truth?

And let’s not forget that women’s tears can be of frustration and even anger, not just mopey, girly sadness. When you’re not even allowed to express frustration and anger the same way as the guys, what is there left to do but cry in rage?

Would you like to provide some proof that women aren’t allowed to express frustration and anger in the same way as the guys? I haven’t ever seen that.

@Tehy
You know, someone has already asked this, but you haven’t answered (which doesn’t help your case when you say you just want to have a debate): Why does there need to be an ultimate expression of femininity and masculinity?
But if you want to know why we reject those two exemples, I’ll compile they things we’ve already said about it in the comments:
1 – Babies are usually made with the conjoined effort of a man and a woman (even if the woman has to bear the worst of it because pregnancy). Raising a child also usually requires the help of more than one person.
2 – The Large Hadron Collider was not created and is not opperated solely by men.
3 – Most people don’t raise children or study physics because they want to validate their gender.
4 – We don’t buy into the whole “Women can’t science LOL” thing.
5 – A large number of women have babies, whereas only a small fraction of men have worked with the LHC. Someone here even crunched the numbers, look it up.

You’re correct; I actually did see that answer before I wrote my post, but didn’t wish to engage further at the moment. However, ‘not being willing to enact that labor’ is a weakness, not something to be trumpeted, so I shall redouble my efforts in future.
Babies are usually made with a slight input from a man and then constructed entirely by a woman; from there, they may well be raised entirely by her as well.
The LHC was probably conceived of and created mostly by men.
Not sure what this point means-they don’t do it to validate their gender, they do it because their gender (i.e. gendered brain) calls them to do it
Neither do I LOL. Women who science are outside of the norm, which I have maintained and will always maintain is not a negative thing. Still true, though
I think LHC is self-evidently a stand-in for any large, important creation. Otherwise, there would have been no ultimate expression of masculinity for millions of years.
I think there must be an ultimate expression of masculinity and femininity because I believe that those bundles of desires, understanding of the world, perspective, etc, are shared by most men and women. Therefore, they will find ultimate expressions. There can, of course, be multiple different ultimate expressions, but I find this to be a remote possibility.

Final notes:
Just because you have the right to be an asshole, does that make it okay?
There were a few small sentences I didn’t respond to. Sorry, but they were mostly, like, ad hominem and stuff.
Remember – valuable and vital are not congruent. Gold is valuable, water is vital. There’s not much gold, so you can’t replace it easily. Meanwhile, there’s a ton of water, so you can replace it easily-thus, gold is valuable. But without water, you would die-thus, water is vital.
Motherhood is vital, LHC is valuable. Don’t take for granted things that are vital, just because they aren’t valuable.

Newt
Newt
5 years ago

@teh:

First up, a helpful tip: You need to close the blockquotes with </blockquote> . (Or less-than slash blockquote greater-than, if I’ve mangled that formatting there.)

Now, on with the show. Thankyou for confirming that you are just another in the long line of posters who doesn’t understand what “ad hominem” means.

“JB said it so it must be true” (if sarcastic) is not an ad hominem, because JB is known to make shit up. See some of her entries on this site for cases of her forging tweets. “An MRA said it so it must be true” (with the same implied level of sarcasm) would be an ad hominem.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ tehy5

I’m afraid I must disagree with you on the “1984” analogy.

Now if you were talking about France your argument might have carried some weight. However in England and the US the way dictionaries define words is probably one of the best examples of democracy ever.

No one can dictate from on high what words mean. Words mean what the people who use those words choose them to mean.

The “common usage” test is merely what would most people understand a word to mean?

That’s not to say there can be only one definition. Many words have multiple meanings.

You will see complaints about the “proper” use of the word “literally” for instance, and people can point to the dictionary to demonstrate it’s original and indeed most common meaning.

The dictionary will also however recognises that the word is now used merely to add emphasis, so whilst some if us may cringe at “I literally exploded at him” we can’t say the use is incorrect.

Now people could organise a campaign to promote particular definitions on sites like urban dictionary, but that has no more relevance to the real world than an online petition to make Batman president.

Words do change meaning over time, but that’s as a result of major societal shifts, not a handful of people skewing a poll on an insignificant website.

isidore13
isidore13
5 years ago

Why is it always okay with trolls to limit everyone else into tiny little boxes but then they get so upset when they’re put in the troll box? Why are you so special, trolls, that we shouldn’t put you in a tiny little box when you want to do that to everyone else (especially feeeeeeeeemales)?

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

Here’s a question:If you were married and with kids, would you be happier? I bet you would.
‘MISOGYNY’ – no. I’d be happier married and with kids, too. I think most people would. But I think women, more than men, have the maternal instincts and impulse. Why deny yourself happiness, just because happiness is normal?

First of all, as a happily childfree, asexual woman, fuck you. Married with kids is my idea of hell, and there is very little that would make me more miserable than that. Don’t speak for what would make other people happy, you’ll only make more of an ass of yourself.

Second of all, it’s incredibly hypocritical of you to pull out the “oh MOST people like this so therefore everyone should do it” when simultaneously arguing that commonly accepted definitions of words -that are defined as such because the majority of people understand the words in that way- are symptoms of an 1984 style conspiracy and urbandictionary is the brave resistance and only thing that can be trusted.

katz
katz
5 years ago

I have no idea what we’re arguing about so can I just say wow, the mammoth was hungry.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Troll thinks Anders Breivik is intelligent?

My days of not taking him seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

That’s probably the most epic blockquote mammoth I’ve ever seen, and the troll didn’t even apologize for it.

The LHC was probably conceived of and created mostly by men.
Not sure what this point means-they don’t do it to validate their gender, they do it because their gender (i.e. gendered brain) calls them to do it

Let me reiterate.

The LHC was probably conceived of and created mostly by men.

You don’t even fucking know. You admit right here that you’re GUESSING. And your GUESS is made on what premise? That men do science, while women do babies? And this proves that men do science, while women do babies?

There is a term for that. It’s called “begging the question.” What was that about super-manly STEM brains being naturally rational and sciencey?

Not sure what this point means

It means that you pull shit out of your ass and demand that everyone treat it as fact, and give it weighty consideration. That’s not how reality works.

You’re not amusing, and you’re a shitty debater. Go home and read a book.

Argenti Aertheri
Argenti Aertheri
5 years ago

Let’s see, there are two binary genders (aka I’m wrong about my gender, don’t exist, or something), Breivik is intelligent, Webster won’t be critical of feminists out of fear, and the absurd notion that TERFs outnumber trans friendly feminists by some huge margin that makes feminism transphobic? I think the meltdown has occurred, I’d ask if there were old socks about, but saying I don’t exist seems to be common with the latest crop of trolls.

Zeb Berryman
Zeb Berryman
5 years ago

This trolls 1984 reference is double-plus ungood. If it were the government deciding what words meant than it would be true but its not.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

Considering how bloody verbose, sealiony and self important he is, I’d almost think that tehy5 was obsidian’s sock, but tehy5 has been opting for longass screeds instead of two billion separate comments and he hasn’t been frantically shilling AVFM links, so I’m stumped. It’s possible he’s a new troll. Or maybe just one of the older ones that have faded from my memory.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Policy of Madness is, as ever, right.

Also, shame on you, troll. The LHC project was designed by many different teams, but the director who oversaw it was Lyn Evans. A simple google tells you that.

lordpabu
lordpabu
5 years ago

Would you like to provide some proof that women aren’t allowed to express frustration and anger in the same way as the guys? I haven’t ever seen that.

Did you stop to consider for a moment that maybe the reason you haven’t ever seen that is because you aren’t directly affected by it, so you don’t notice it? I know that I personally notice racism a lot less than sexism because I’m white, but since I have empathy and believe other people when they tell me about their lived experiences I know it’s out there in equal force. (At the very least.)

I did have to grow up with that conditioning, and it’s insidious. It’s absolutely everywhere. For reasons that I myself can only theorize about, I associated strongly with masculine ideals and traits for longer than I can remember. It’s not because I have a male brain, either. When I dream I have been both male and female. I have become romantically involved with people who are male, female, something in between, or, if we’re back to talking dreams, even deities or monsters. I’ve loved my dog more than my life, I loved my hometown with the same passion others reserve for people. That love was never reliant on the physical act of sex. It still isn’t.

I don’t know what I am, but whatever it is my brain doesn’t recognize any sort of gender alliance beyond what it needs to chameleon it’s way out of trouble in our society. And while I might be a little exceptional in how far off the grid I am, I’m not an exception. All people share my traits, just usually to a lesser extent.

Now, the way I was taught that I couldn’t show my anger the way other boys could (I always thought of them as other boys, because I believed I was one of them even if I knew I was ‘technically’ a girl) was usually very nuanced and subtle in a way I would have to write a ten page paper to make clear, but there was one distinct occasion that I can easily share. My best friend growing up was my cousin Mark. We used to brawl all the time. Our fighting made up some of my earliest memories, and I was never an easy person to win against. I was fierce and daring, and while I had a low pain tolerance I was also too proud and stubborn to let pain stop me. There were occasions where he would be afraid to even make eye contact with me for weeks after he got on my bad side. He was a year younger than I was, but I was very small and thin for my age, so I never had a size advantage. I was just feisty and had conviction. I was also a good person to have in your corner. His stepdad was abusive toward him, his sisters where cruel to him and enabled by their mother, and I was the one who had his back. I wouldn’t stand for injustice.

But everything started changing. He stopped talking to me if he saw me at school, and since all of my male friends in my own grade had already stopped talking to me a few years before I sort of knew what was coming. Then, one day, he came up to me when I walked to his house and told me that he couldn’t hit me anymore, because I was a girl. And that was it. It might sound cute to someone who doesn’t understand the context, but I was insulted. I was STRONGER than him! I was more tough! I WON most of those fights! But now we couldn’t fight anymore. I couldn’t hit him or any other boy, because they couldn’t let themselves hit me back and I wouldn’t hit someone who couldn’t defend themselves. I couldn’t hit girls for the exact same reasons those boys wouldn’t hit girls. I held myself to the same code of honor, after all.

So that was it for me. No more fighting, and I knew of no other way to express my anger. So yeah, I’m 27 now, and to this day when I get angry I still feel the urge to hit people, or break something. But I won’t let myself. I was a preteen on that day when Mark told me he wouldn’t hit me anymore. That was fifteen years ago. And now, I’m one of those women who cry when they are angry or frustrated because there is nowhere else for the rage to go. It turns inward, turns on me, and then the anguish escapes through my eyes. And most people, most MEN, assumes it’s weakness. And it’s fucking ironic and cruel.

Not that my endless effort to be a better, more noble, honorable person doesn’t win me a lot of friends and bring a lot of good things into my life. It does, and it’s worth the pain. But knowing how the sort of men those boys I was friends with became see me now leaves me bitter. And it’s all because of bullshit stereotyping and gender roles.

None of that is okay.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

I just skimmed read because I’m tired but I’m going to address some points tehy5 said.

Unfortunately for you, nothing i’ve said is assholish. I’m trying to pit trans people and cis feminists against each other because they are, in fact, against each other, but because feminists don’t hold within themselves a consistent ideology, they just make exceptions whenever what they say contradicts with trans people believe.

Feminism has been around for over a hundred years, and with its age, its developed several different branches and types that are dedicated to different things. Some of, but not all, are listed here.

This is because feminism is a philosophy, and every school of philosophy has its own branches.

Most of us here, I believe, are intersectional feminist who believe in equality for all women, regardless of race, disability, religion, home country, etc.

Frankly, when men are mass-shamed for being comfortable on a subway (and in fact, 2 men were arrested for manspreading), it’s a bit of a problem.

So the comfort of other people on the bus or whatever don’t matter, just the guys that are spreading? Manspreaders take up around two people worth of seats and encroach into other people’s spaces. You telling me you would stand on a bus or subway so a guy or two can take up two seats? Why does he have to spread his legs to wide, anyway? Do these guys also walk bowlegged since they need so much room? Or are they just being inconsiderate of other people also needing seats who are likely just as or more uncomfortable than the guy is?

I notice that, so far, about 1 person has attempted to engage me in meaningful dialogue.

Please note the banner on the top of the webpage: “We Hunted the Mammoth: The New Misogyny, Tracked and Mocked.” This isn’t a debate website or a news site or anything like that. This is a forum that tracks ridiculous manosphere and general misogyny for feminist and people to mock.

Occasionally we get a heavy bit of news about men gunning down woman or people trying to get rid of abortion or schools getting death threats from guys who believed they are owed a girlfriend but we’re here to make fun of people who think “manspreading” is something of an inalienable right. Or that feminist are taking away men’s sexbots before they even exist. Just a bunch of ridiculous shit.

I’ll simplify it even more: gender identity seems to correlate quite heavily with gender roles

In a society like the USA, yes it does. But it really shouldn’t be. A man should be able to be a man and still want to be a stay at home husband and a woman should able able to be a woman and go out and provide the bacon if they should so like. We shouldn’t be defined by the genders we’re assigned at birth. That’s like assigning us jobs at infancy. Would you have liked to have been groomed to be a traffic cop? A nurse? A janitor? What if you wanted to be a lawyer but, no, you were born and assigned to be a bird keeper, even if you have a phobia of birds, even if you’re really good at debating? That’s basically what gender roles try to do.

The gender system many western societies have based on genitals and what we think those genitals should do in their lifetime makes no sense. Everyone should be whatever gender they want and do whatever job they want without people harassing or making fun of or deeming them “weird” just because the job or role doesn’t match what society dictated us to be at birth. This is one thing many branches of feminism is trying to stop.

And not to mention there are many societies around the world that have mroe than two genders. This website has viewers and commentators from around the world, from the USA to Britain to Argentina to, um, I think I remember someone talking about Southeast Asia area? I don’t remember off hand. So, honestly, you dismissing Argenti’s (and in turn, my own) non-binary gender identity is rude on many different levels.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

Or is this a casual forum for discussion?

Not really – at least not the sort of discussion you’re trying to have.
http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy190/MetalAmaya_photo/obviously.jpg
This is what this blog is for. It’s right in the header.

Let’s see-I don’t dislike sarcasm, just that particular style of shitty humor

ou social justice types have decided it’s the correct …humor style, or something…

“You don’t know humor! I know humor!”

And you, just like Rebecca Watson, heard a simple statement of fact, and started to reconstruct it until an agreement became a refutation. Don’t you see how you are seeing sexism where none exists?

He implied that women were the only ones who disrupted the work with emotional reactions. To say that the only people who react emotionally (and in potentially disruptive or even dangerous ways) are women, is to deny reality.

Here’s a question:If you were married and with kids, would you be happier? I bet you would.

Would you be happy shutting your mouth and going away? I bet you would be happy shutting your mouth and going away.
Seriously, don’t tell people what would make them happy when they have made it clear that it wouldn’t. What you’ve said is disrespectful in several levels.

My mother taught me to be polite and respectful to others

I wouldn’t have guessed.

The issue is, boys are being taught not to play (notice, PLAY) roughly

That’s vague. What does constitute playing roughly? Cause I’ve played roughly with my cousins before, and I’ve got a serious beating from one of them before. If we’re talking about boys playing cowboy or rolling around pretending to wrestle or something, I also don’t think it’s the sort of thing that people should try to stop, but sometimes the “just playing” of a kid might be the “feeling attacked” of another.
Also, I’m curious, how do you feel about boys who like to play house or girls who like to play with plastic swords?

Babies are usually made with a slight input from a man and then constructed entirely by a woman

Wait, what? Babies are a half of each of their parents, no such thing as a slight input. Unless you’re talking about things that happen in utero?

The LHC was probably conceived of and created mostly by men.

“Probably”. Much science.

Not sure what this point means-they don’t do it to validate their gender, they do it because their gender (i.e. gendered brain) calls them to do it

See, I get where the whole “women are generally motherly” comes from, but I have no idea why science is supposed to be biologically a “man thing”. Science isn’t even a “thing” in the way babies are, it’s a construct – a method. And, yeah, gendered brain? Wanna give some sources on that?

I think LHC is self-evidently a stand-in for any large, important creation.

And most men have been responsible for all the large important creations? The counter-argument is still valid.
And this is a ridiculous argument : “Science is a man thing because most science was done by men.” Because there was never a time when women couldn’t go to universities.

I think there must be an ultimate expression of masculinity and femininity because I believe that those bundles of desires, understanding of the world, perspective, etc, are shared by most men and women. Therefore, they will find ultimate expressions.

Let me see if I got this straight… You think ultimate expressions of femininity and masculinity are bound to exist because men in general want the same thing and women in general want the same thing?
Which is, respectively, “large important creations” and “making babies”.
Also, isn’t that completly binary? Are the only people who matter the ones who subscribe to one (and only one) gender?

but I find this to be a remote possibility.

So what? What you “find” most likely to be true has no bearing on reality. You’re arguing from ignorance.

Your whole point seems to be that men are usually a certain way and women are usually a different way. Fine, but you don’t even seem to consider the possibility of this being a self fulfilling prophecy.
You also say you don’t think deviating from gender norms is wrong, but you don’t seem to really believe this yourself (You know, with the whole telling someone else that something would make them happy because it’s the norm)
And, you might not know this, but I’ve never seen any of the regular commenters saying that motherhood has no value. Some really don’t want to be mothers, and, what a shocker, some really do, but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone here saying that you shouldn’t behave in a way that is traditionally considered feminine just because it’s considered feminine.

You are not being polite by disregarding the objective of this blog, and you’re not being respectful by telling other people that they’re wrong in how they live their lives.

katz
katz
5 years ago

Whenever my computer scrolls past that blockquote, Carmina Burana starts playing of its own accord.

RosaDeLava
RosaDeLava
5 years ago

And, yeah, gendered brain? Wanna give some sources on that?

I’ve re-read this and I realized this can be seen to mean something I didn’t intend.
I’m trying to criticize the notion that liking science usually accompanies being a man, or being a woman usually implies you won’t like science. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Kootiepatra
5 years ago

nothing i’ve said is assholish…

– Admits to trying to pit cis and trans feminists against each other
– Calls a commenter a prick
– Passes judgment on a commenter’s character
– Chides others for using curse words, and then uses curse words
– Dismisses a trans person’s extremely reasonable post while mansplaining why people are trans
– Compares regulars to flies
– Dismissively calls a regular “hun”
– Tells a happily single, childless woman that she doesn’t really know what she wants or needs in order to be happy
– Told me I was only pretending to be amused, because apparently I am lying about laughing
– Sides with Anders Breivik

Such civil. Much polite. Wow.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I find it amusing that the troll is telling us what he finds not funny. Are we supposed to care if he finds us funny?