Here’s my segment from The Majority Report yesterday

@Kat

That group of questioned reminded me of a generic high school exam question.

“Is Democracy (or Capitalism, or Environmentalism, or Secularism, etc) an unalloyed good? What are it’s potential downsides or tradeoffs? Discuss.”

Note, Obsidian started his inquest with this.

Now, let’s move to some of the things Futrelle addresses. My first question is this: is feminism an unmitigated good? Does it not have any downsides? is there no trade-offs?

(Earlier I accidentally quoted the first version from the YouTube comment, which had “unalloyed” rather than “unmitigated”.)

Of course, David and Matt didn’t “address” Feminism at all. They first discussed how red pill crap has being creeping into general discourse. David then explains what MRAs, PUAs and MGTOWs are to civilians. They talked about Breitbart editor and noted Gamergate exploiter Milo Yiannopoulos and his appearance on The Joe Rogan Show.

I found the most interesting parts of the interview were about how the established far right, from Breitbart to Stormfront, is actively courting/pandering to manosphere/gamergate/red pill crowd in hopes of growing their base among younger men. In turn, manospherians are adopting a broader right wing ideology beyond their malformed misogynistic anti-feminism.

Note, Obsidian doesn’t ask a single question about any of this.

brooked responses were fantastic, so I think there’s only one thing I need to say:

http://i790.photobucket.com/albums/yy190/MetalAmaya_photo/obviously.jpg

Hell Katz, flesh lights exist, and plenty of things are humpable — from the infamous pie to the more practical pillow.

PSA: Do not hump a pie straight out of the oven. That way lies a trip to the emergency room.

@brooked

I found the most interesting parts of the interview were about how the established far right, from Breitbart to Stormfront, is actively courting/pandering to manosphere/gamergate/red pill crowd in hopes of growing their base among younger men. In turn, manospherians are adopting a broader right wing ideology beyond their malformed misogynistic anti-feminism.

Fascinating. The good news is that all these groups are tipping their hand that they’re one and the same: Those who hate women also hate Jews, gays, and immigrants, among others. I can only hope that the other groups are as incompetent as the manosphere.

The one difference that I can think of is that, last I checked, Nazis & Co. are not an ironic bunch. They’re not likely to slip sly jokes into their rants, the way Roosh does. Hitler was not a hipster.

@Kat

Hitler was not a hipster.

With that hairstyle? Pffft
Sorry.

Um. Apparently there’s a comic called Hipster Hitler.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/09/20/1411207656225_Image_galleryImage_STIAN_HITLER_HIPSTER_OUTR.JPG

Hold on guys, I got bored, so a long post inbound!

Petitioning again to get David to put this somewhere on the site:

“The purpose of this space is not for discussing feminism or its merits.

You are not entitled to a debate, niceness, or education from anyone here.

You have been warned.”

But, you know what? I’m bored as shit. So, let’s do this. *cracks knuckles*

Though, I will say out the gate that I’m not going to quote every single article of what you say, good sir, because quite frankly, you’re verbose as fuck and need to learn the definition of the word brevity.

Obsidian | October 9, 2015 at 9:36 pm
[…] So, right from the rip, I call BS on Futrelle’s argument and claims that the Manosphere is inherently racist. The fact that I stand before you as a Manospherian belies such a notion.”

“They’re not racist, I, one of their token black men, say so!”

What about all the other black people who say they are, in fact, racist? What about the PoC that bring up specific examples of them being racist? What about this very site citing specific examples of various manosphere blogs being racists towards all kinds of PoC? What about all the other non-black PoC who say they’re racist?

Do they all just stop existing? Does your opinion somehow nullify theirs?

Obsidian | October 9, 2015 at 9:38 pm
I’d like to continue now with the promised links of my columns and articles, as well as podcasts that directly address (and often refutes) of Mr. Futrelle’s remarks per the interview above.

I see no links sir.

Though, judging from what I’ve read from you so far, you’re not exactly batting 1000 here when it comes to “refuting” David.

I’m also looking into getting in contact with Mr. Binder to see if he’d be willing to interview yours truly.

Well, good luck with that, because had you paid a little more attention, you’d know that Mr. Binder’s off to do other things.

In the meantime, I have this question in response to Mr. Futrelle’s remarks regarding Roosh’s desire to have sex with “slim White women”. It’s not my personal preference, but why is that such a wrong thing? Please explain?”

I don’t recall David saying that (Mammotheers, please correct me if I’m wrong), but the thing about Roosh is that his views are heavily rooted in racism. Every other article Roosh writes is about how “evil brown people” are out to destroy Western civilization, even though many of his sexist views are drawn from more extremist Eastern religions, and he even claimed that he’s Islamic (but it was only a really shitty “gotcha” in order to make a very sorry dodge of criticism leveled at him by Canadian feminists).

It’s one thing to go “I’ve only been attracted to white women” and quite another to say “I only fuck white women because other women are gross.”

That’s racist. And considering that Roosh has proclaimed himself “Leader of the Fat Shaming Movement”, he’s also a douchebag in that arena as well.

Obsidian | October 9, 2015 at 9:40 pm
My first question is this: is feminism an unmitigated good? Does it not have any downsides? is there no trade-offs?

Granted, feminism isn’t perfect. Nothing in this world truly is, and let’s face it, it’s run by completely fallible people. Feminism has had issues in the past with racism, transphobia, sex worker discrimination, fatphobia, ect.

But, that isn’t to say that there aren’t feminists who are working on that, or that we don’t recognize that it’s a problem, because it is. In fact, that’s where we get SWERFs (Sex-Worker Exclusionary Radical Feminists), TERFs (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists), and White Feminists (A feminist who only seems to care about cishet, white, middle-class women’s issues, not necessarily a feminist who is white) from.

Now, does that mean we should give up feminism altogether? Fuck no. It’s a process, and we’re constantly learning and growing.

As for the downsides, does being harassed by the manosphere count? Because it does happen. And being treated like a bra-burning, man-hating, raving madwoman because I spout such radical notions as “Hey, maybe we shouldn’t blame rape victims for their rapes!”

As for the trade-offs, I’d like to think that having the ability to get a college education, getting the right to vote, own property, and get into relationships and marry on my own terms are pretty damn nice.

Oh, and feminists are also working to end Rape Culture, fatphobia, sex stigma, ect, so we’ve still got a full plate and lots of work to do.

Futrelle is correct to say that the Manosphere is a reactionary movement of sorts. But we could say the exact same thing of feminism itself, or the civil rights movement, and so on. The Manosphere, when you really boil it down, is an examination of the question as poised above.”

Then why the fuck is the Manosphere more concerned with harassing women and feminists and asking for the right to beat, rape, and make women kowtow to them and their Almighty Boners instead of, oh, I don’t know, focusing on men’s issues like toxic masculinity, or companies making money off the back of men’s insecurities about their masculinity?

Not once, in my years of being a feminist, have I seen a MRA (or any other member of the manosphere, for that matter) stand up for men, unless it was to bludgeon a feminist with bullshit, or derail a conversation said feminist was having about women’s issues, in a sorry attempt to silence them.

Last I checked, while feminism does help men, it’s not really our purpose to focus on men’s problems.

The Manosphere is no real “examination” of feminism. If anything, it’s a group of men dedicated to harassing women under the guise of “critique”.

But, that’s okay, because we feminists are critical of ourselves, and call each other out for bullshit all the time.

Obsidian | October 9, 2015 at 9:41 pm
“Regarding pickup artists: again, the question has to be: is it a crime for a man to want to learn how to attract the women he wants, for purposes of wanting sex? If your answer is “no”, then what really, is your problem with game?

It’s not a crime for a man to want to know how to attract someone he’s interested in. Nor is it a crime for him to go to someone for advice.

My problem with game (since I can’t, and wouldn’t, speak for every other feminist) is that it’s not really to attract women, it’s just to use them to get some sexual gratification through lies, deceit, and outright manipulation. It’s just a way to manipulate women into becoming another notch in a man’s bedpost.

There’s nothing wrong with casual sex mind you, but the way that people who spout “game” put it bothers me immensely because they talk about women not as people, but as complex sex vending machines, mindless animals, or, at best, “sluts and whores”.

If your argument is that game is inherently flawed, my question then becomes: what’s the alternative, and why hasn’t it been available until now?

The thing is, the alternative has always been available, men just have been lead to believe (by other men who then offer to teach them “game” as an alternative, usually at the cost of a seminar or book! Look, men making money off of men’s insecurities because men have been taught by society that the only way they have worth is if they fuck as many women as possible!) that it isn’t available or doesn’t work because that one woman they hit on once didn’t return their affections and didn’t immediately drop and give him a blowjob.

The alternative is: Treat women like they’re people you’d like to get in bed with, with their permission, instead of Sexy Time vending machines.

Boom. That easy.

Of course, some other people have mentioned various sex toys, but I’m assuming you mean an alternative to get a real, live woman in bed with you.

I think the pickup artists have forced a number of very powerful questions onto the table for the rest of us to examine.”

Like what?

Obsidian | October 9, 2015 at 9:43 pm
“Regarding the men’s rights movement: Futrelle says that they haven’t done anything, but he forgets the fact that feminism has been around for more than a century and according to many in their number women still aren’t equal.

It’s an ongoing process. We’re not just going to become equal to men overnight. The Patriarchy wasn’t Dismantled in a Day.

So, who really hasn’t accomplished anything here?

Well, we’ve gotten women the right to vote, to get a college education, the right to marry who we want, the right to have sex with who we want (though we’re still working on the stigma surrounding that), the right to own property, ect.

What has the manosphere done besides try (and fail) to organize conventions and such?

I say that the very fact that I’m here discussing these things with you and your audience right now, as a black, working class man, says that the Manosphere has been quite successful, and the party’s just getting started!”

Really? Because I think that you, as a black working class man, owe that to the Civil Rights Movement, not the Manosphere.

Though, you’re more than welcome to post a list of things that the Manosphere has done for men. I’d love to see it.

Obsidian | October 9, 2015 at 9:51 pm
“While I’m here, please allow me to give you my own little manifesto wrt men’s issues. I’m often asked, “Obsidian, what do you want?”. My answer is very simple: I want the concerns of men taken seriously.

Considering most of “men’s issues” are taken seriously, and that a majority of what the manosphere lists as “men’s issues” are either non-issues or “I just want feminists to shut up and let me hit/rape/fuck women when I want”, I don’t think I’m out of place here to ask for an elaboration on this point.

I want make disposability-something I know about first-hand as a life-long blue collar guy who’s career ended with a workplace injury-seriously.

Again, elaboration. For someone who’s so verbose, you sure do manage to say a hell of a lot of nothing.

However, in terms of “disposability”, I’d like to cover a few things:

– Men tend to do more risky things that women.
– Men tend to dominate more risky fields, and shove women out (and then the manosphere whines that women don’t want said risky jobs)

I want men’s health issues, which includes emotional, mental and sexual, taken seriously.

While I would very much agree with you on this point, I think we’d disagree on what the cause of said issues are.

A lot of these are due to toxic masculinity, specifically the idea that men asking for help is considered “weak” and something to mock.

I want the same people (read: women) who drone on about attractiveness standards, also give time to the very same things wrt men (for example: documented heightism against men by women in terms of dating, etc.).

“Heightism” isn’t a thing. A woman saying “I like to date men taller than me” isn’t a hate crime, nor is it some sort of sign of bigotry. She’s not saying you’re a lesser person for being short, she’s saying she’s just not into short dudes.

That isn’t to say she wouldn’t date a shorter dude if they clicked really well, or that she was being 100% honest because a guy was nagging her for a reason for her to not like him, because she can’t just say “no thank you” and be left in peace, which is often the case when it comes to dating, in my experience.

For instance, I’m really into blonde guys. Does that mean I only date blonde guys? No, it’s just a preference. If I met a brunette guy who I clicked really well with (and it has happened before), then I’d be inclined to date them.

It’s not about what I must have in a partner, its just things I find attractive on human beings.

I want reproductive rights for Men, taken seriously.

Elaborate please.

Because, if my assumptions based off of other manospherians are correct: You mean you want to be able to force a woman to have a pregnancy instead of getting an abortion, or you want more of a say of what goes on with a body that is not yours, which is a whole other topic of conversation.

I want the education of boys, taken seriously.

Considering that we’d rather boot girls out of class for “breaking dress code” than expect boys to not gawk at girls for showing a bit of shoulder in 90 degree weather, I’d say that this one is already taken care of.

In fact, we take boys’ education so seriously, that we’d rather jeopardize girls’ education to make sure they’re learning properly!

I want false rape accusations-something black men know about all to well in this society and historically running up through the present day-seriously. (Brian Banks, anyone?)

You have a higher chance of actually being raped than to be falsely accused of it.

And if that’s not good enough for you, here’s a Stanford article on the subject.

Oh, we wanna drop names though? How about Bill Cosby?

I want family and child support court abuses concerning men, I want family court abuses against men, taken seriously.

What do you mean by “family court abuses”?

Because men are more often given custody than not when they seek it. The problem lies in the fact that men aren’t more likely to seek custody.

I want domestic and spousal abuse by women against men and boys, taken seriously.

Good, then we agree on that point as well. But, again, I think we disagree on the source of the problem. I point, once again, to toxic masculinity and the idea that being hit by a woman is considered “weak”, and asking for help is something to mock.

Of course, I think we should take all domestic and spousal abuse against men and boys taken seriously, including the abuse against men and boys perpetrated by men.

Obsidian | October 9, 2015 at 9:56 pm
“It’s interesting that Mr. Futrelle and Mr. Binder want to go in on Milo Yannopoulos, an out gay man.

You mean the guy who says he wishes he wasn’t gay, and says that he only “went gay” because women are, in his words, “nutty broads”?

And are you implying that only gay people can criticize Milo? Fine.

As a member of the LGBTQA+ community myself, Milo has done more harm than good for us solely with that. He’s a racist, sexist, self-hating homophobe who only jumped on the GamerGate bandwagon because he thinks that they’ll somehow bolster his “journalism” career, not because he has any sympathy or camaraderie for them beyond the fact that they’re both sexist.

Milo, […] proves that if you stray just one millimeter off of the social justice warrior reservation, you are then thrown under the bus.

So, the manosphere seems to believe the straw argument that “SJWs” will defend someone, no matter what they’re doing, if they’re a part of a marginalized group.

But you’re saying that if they stray too far off the “social justice reservation” (which is really fucking racist, bee-tee-dubs, so thanks for proving, yet again, that the manosphere is racist), then they’re “thrown under the bus”.

So which is it? Do I defend Milo solely because he’s gay (and a “choice gay” at that), or do I “throw him under the bus” for being a shitty person?

Because I’d rather talk about him being a shitty person, which he is.

So, allow me to make this a bit clearer for you: If a person, no matter what group they come from, is a shitty person, we’re going to call them out for shitty behavior. Milo’s not “protected” by us solely because he’s gay, because gay people can be shitty too, case in point: Milo!

Just like I can still call you out for sexism, despite the fact that you’re black!

Obsidian | October 10, 2015 at 4:42 pm
It’s perfectly fine if you can’t or won’t respond; I have noticed that quite a few folks like you tend to respond to my ripostes with what Ms. Janet Bloomfield coined “stunned silence”.

Doesn’t want to talk to you =/= You’re right and win everything.

FFS dude.

Obsidian | October 10, 2015 at 6:19 pm
@Argenti:
“Point here? None of us are obligated to answer your questions dude.”

Of course not, but then we all know this, right? Let’s try and be grownups here, hmm? “Snark” and “Mocking” behavior is for children. Let’s have a real conversation on the issues, not the personalities, not the name calling, not any of the arid, abstract stuff that so many White folks on both sides of the Manosphere divide seem to devolve into,

Well, I’d love to have a conversation about the “real issues”, but considering you’ve brought me only straw and are currently trying to tone police and stamp your widdle feet as hard as you can, I’m finding it rather difficult to have an “adult” conversation with you, considering you only mildly sound like an adult, but don’t act like one.

and discuss the actual issues that undergird the very existence of the Manosphere to begin with?

Sir, are you suggesting that something is strapped to your undercarriage? Because that’s an odd turn-of-phrase.

I am using my own living personal testimony as a jumping off point here – a Black, inner city, working class, union card-carrying trades unionist.

And I’m suing my own living personal testimony as a pansexual feminist to point out that you’re not putting anything new out here, Mr. SeaLion, and are, in fact, rather verbose and boring.

And I managed to do it in one post instead of fourteen!

@Paradoxical Intention
Whoa! Well done.

Yeah, well I was into invading the Sudentenland before it was cool.

@Paradoxical Intention
http://i.imgur.com/i6r5VDO.gif

@Paradoxical Intention – I salute you.

http://i.giphy.com/O4g6rcjHluBUs.gif

@PI

… Would that be a jawless victory?

*grins*