Is the Men’s Rights Movement a bunch of middle-aged creeps obsessed with the sexuality of women young enough to be their daughters?
Judging from this video, shot at the first A Voice for Men “family reunion,” the answer is “yes.” Also, the Men’s Rights movement is drunk.
In the video, AVFM’s head middle-aged creep Paul Elam, working the camera, introduces his fellow “family members” as the only men in the Men’s Movement “who told Jessica Valenti ‘no’ to a blow job.”
Panning across the almost-all-white faces in the crowd, Elam gleefully shouts:
Hello Jessica! Hello Jessica! Yeeaaaah! Here’s a dick you won’t suck! Oh, there’s another dick you won’t suck! Oh my God there’s just thousands of dicks that don’t want you to suck it! [sic] … No means no, bitch! No means no, bitch!
At this point the entire group starts chanting “no means no.”
Valenti, the founder of Feministing, is a daily columnist for The Guardian and the author of four books. Elam is a middle-aged asshole who for many years has lived off of his girlfriend and/or the donations he’s been able to extract from gullible men.
Elam asks if anyone else has anything they want to say to the feminists of the world, because “this is going on YouTube.”
One gentleman shouts his message: “Go fuck yourself!”
Former AVFM second-in-command Dean Esmay makes an impossible-to-parse comment about “good rape.”
Elam adds his thoughts about another prominent feminist writer:
Hey listen, Amanda Marcotte! Your pussy stinks!
Then he ends the video with this little warning:
Hey, girls, look into your future! A lot more of this shit’s coming, and it ain’t gonna be fun except for us.
The Human Rights Movement of the 21st century, folks!
In the description of the video on YouTube, Elam (presumably sober by this time) makes clear he doesn’t care if anyone thinks the video makes the Men’s Rights movement look bad.
Look, it is just some men having non PC fun. If you find it offensive or a “bad thing” for the men’s movement, you can blow it out your ass.
Given that the so-called Men’s Rights movement is itself a bad thing, I’d like to thank Mr. Elam for once again making my work here easy.
NOTE: You folks might want to save this video, just in case Mr. Elam realizes what an ass he’s making of himself. (If you don’t have the right browser extension to save videos, this website will do it for you.)
EDIT: I just realized what this video reminded me of: The creepy dance sequence from the horror movie Calvaire.
I follow a number of tumblrs that post creepy messages from OkCupid and other dating sites, and you do see a lot of creepy older men on there, trying to hit on women half their age, ignoring the women’s listed age preferences. And plenty of them will then accuse the women of being ageist for rejecting them. And they’ll sometimes talk down to them as though they’re addressing a child, which makes it extra creepy.
I remember seeing one recently where the guy’s response to being rejected was “You’re just afraid of love, little child.” To which the young woman’s response was something like “Yes, I am a child, which is what makes you so creepy”.
@ POM
Well, of course; but here we’re talking about consensual relationships. Please don’t fall into the arguments of homophobes just because you find particular relationships unacceptable.
There is a universe of difference between a consensual, mutually-attractive may-december (or may-october in some cases) relationship
Yes, and that’s the point. It’s the creeping and entitlement that’s the problem not the age thing.
I’m not sure of your positon here. Are you saying that older woman/younger man is acceptable but not vice versa? I can understand your position regarding guys who just see women as sex objects; although if women are fine with guys like that then that’s up to them I suppose but what’s wrong with just preferring younger people generally? It might have nothing to do with virginity or fertility; it might just be that people prefer clubbing or backpacking to the nightmare of suburban domesticity and respectability.
Alan,
Young women are more likely to be naive and physically smaller. It was threatening and intimidating to be creeped on by older men when I was young. I suspect that is the point. That is why women talk derisively about dirty old men. It’s not about ageism, it’s about our experiences with misogyny and harassment that almost always start under the age of 18. Now that I’m a little older, I feel protective of younger girls and women.
No, we aren’t. We’re talking about older men creeping on younger women. Not only is this not consensual, it is based in – and reinforces – damaging social narratives about the value of women.
Holy fuck, you did not actually go there.
No, the age thing is intrinsically a problem. Are you not actually reading what I’m typing about why it’s a problem? Because you have not given me jack to counter it. “No, PoM, age is not the problem at all because there are no cultural narratives about how women are only valuable for their sexual services” or whatever it is that you disagree with on me about this. All you’re doing is saying over and over that the age is not the problem, and I have told you WHY it is a problem and you haven’t addressed that WHY in the slightest.
@ POM & WWTH
I do get what you’re saying about the dirty old man thing. TBH, it’s a phrase I’ve used myself.
One thing on this site though is that generally everybody is accepting of consensual relationships, no matter what society generally may think of them. So I’ll admit something does bug me about the emphasis on the age thing.
I really like both of you, and also I certainly don’t want to get into mansplaining or dismissing your own experiences; I totally see where you’re coming from, so I’ll try put my gut feeling into words and see if I can express myself better.
I think it’s because, as phrased, the suggestion seems to be that the age thing is problematic in itself rather than there are creepy guys who prey on younger women.
It’s the implication that no age differentiated relationship can be consensual.
Does that make sense? I accept I may be reading the whole thing wrong.
@Alan:
To me it’s about power; partly societal, partly experiental, partly economic, partly miscellaneous. These sorts of power tend to correlate with age and gender, not perfectly but close enough that it’s fair to say that an older man probably has more power than a younger woman.
In situations where there is a power differential, consent is an extremely difficult issue to discern. This is why it’s thought to be inappropriate for people to date their employees, to give one example, or for university lecturers to date their students. One can’t easily answer the question of “would there still have been the consent had there not been the power differential” and therefore the whole thing gets very dubious and honest people should stay away from it.
(Yes, I’m aware that it’s ironic that I discuss power in a dating context.)
That’s not a suggestion. That’s what I’m saying in plain language.
Men creeping on women is a problem. A man creeping on a woman his own age would be a problem.
There is an additional problematic element when the man is twice the woman’s age. There is an extra layer of creepiness. There is another, additional layer when the man is creeping on the younger woman specifically because he only likes women who are barely legal. Another layer of creepiness is applied if the woman is a woman of color and the man is white.
I don’t know how I could be any more clear about that.
@ EJ(TOO)
Yeah, I can see that and I understand that’s what POM and WWTH are getting at.
I think like all areas where you’re considering consent it’s a matter of is there real consent and is there agency.
The mere fact that there may be a societal power imbalance can’t of itself be a bar; otherwise there’d be no heterosexual relationships or mixed race relationships. I see the student/lecturer thing. That’s reflected here in law. A student can’t consent to a relationship if they’re under 18 (the age of consent here is normally 16) but once people are legally adults then they’re assumed to have agency.
There are all sorts of power imbalances in society, both systemic and individually, but I think ultimately we should trust people to make their own decisions about who they want to be with.
@ POM
No, that’s cool. See it now.
Age = No problem
Creep = Problem
Creep + Age = Even bigger problem
Hence highlighting age.
Except that isn’t what he said at all. He was merely observing the ages and behavior of pretty much all the guys in the video, and noting a commonality. Is one not allowed to make such observations? Because, you know, there is a REASON a lot of older men creep on young women, and why women’s attraction to men of a certain age has been routinely overstated by the media, and overestimated by these guys themselves. It’s called SEXISM.
I think we’re following the same ones, because I’ve noticed that too! One guy had the gall to say that he guessed the younger woman must not want to be “respected” or “treated right”, or some such. Meanwhile, he didn’t respect her stated preference for a man closer to her own age, and then had the additional chutzpah to disrespect her by making a spiteful mini-drama about it. Thus no doubt justifying the young woman in her belief that older men are not respectful but patronizing, and that at their age, not knowing how to really treat a woman (i.e. RESPECT HER BOUNDARIES, FIRST AND FOREMOST) is just pitiful.
@Bina
That’s quite possible. The ones I’m following are :
straightwhiteboystexting
cispeopletexting
okcreepsters
hell-is-okcupid
@Spindrift
I follow the first two.
(Oh hey, okcreepsters. I know that blog. I was FWB for a while with one of the people who does it and she introduced me via email to the others. They’re awesome people.)
People who are primarily attracted to others who are much older or younger than themselves is actually a dysfunctional sexual preference. This is why it isn’t very common and why most of the time it involves a financially well off person obtaining “arm candy” or one night stands. People are naturally more attracted to others of their own age group because of much more than physical stuff. You just have more in common with other people your own age, similar life experiences, similar stage in life, similar goals, etc.
I think it is really dangerous when people act like there’s nothing wrong with a 50 yo dating a 20 yo. I have never seen a healthy relationship coming from that. I have seen a lot of abusive and horrible shit happen because other people chose to mind their own business instead of talking to the people involved and getting them some counseling.
Am I saying that these kinds of relationships can’t be healthy? Nope. But they are so goddamn rare as to be pretty much not worth worrying about. Those couples will go on being happy and loving no matter what everyone else says. Also their attraction to each other stems from something that the people around them will probably be able to understand. For example they are both devoted animal rights activists and vegans.
The real reason that May-December relationships are not questioned more, in spite of there being a clear dysfunction involved, is because most of time it is an older man and younger woman. Male entitlement and male privilege give them an extra shield against criticism that you never see with the opposite. It doesn’t help that movies and TV are constantly portraying leading men along side much younger leading women. It’s not like there will ever be lynch mobs for these people, so I don’t see much merit it trying to normalize something like this. Especially when there is reason to try to help people deal with the dysfunctional way that they deal with romantic relationships.
So, as vile as these people are, I have to call shenanigans on “lol, it was just diarrhea medicine, what a brat” etc sentiments. What part of -screaming and hitting a 13 year old with a wooden spoon- is funny? How is that ok?
Look, I get that he’s grown into a ragefilled waste of space and that there’s not much point wasting energy feeling sorry for him -now-, but that shouldn’t lead to dismissal of yeah, that actually sounds like classic child abuse. Because, you know, it DOES.
Would it be funny if you heard of that happening to a 13 year old kid right now? Wooden spoon and all? Would you maybe wonder how that scenario happened to begin with? Like, maybe there’s something off about the whole setup of mom being that invested in her 13 year old’s bodily functions? And yeah, it IS weird a 13 year old would balk at diarrhea medicine: os the solution screaming and hitting him? Is that typical?
I haven’t been here in a long while and I’m sorry if it comes off like concern trolling, but you know, that shit bothers me. Y’all are better than that.
And no, I don’t think he just made it up. I think he’s a hot mess and that little anecdote is a little insight into one part of how he got there, though by no means whatsoever an excuse. It’s no surprise either; everything about him screams “mom issues stacking up to a National Geographic collection.”
Note to zipper whosit: haha no, Valenti is not remotely a radical feminist. Radfems think she’s a “fun feminist” and a terrible sellout. Lurk moar. Or not.
I so wish this video would go viral so everyone could see these creeps for exactly what they are.
Alan: One other element that was not touched on is that these men in particular are prone to universalizing their ‘preferences’, as well as having seriously warped reasoning behind those preferences.
Much like polygyny, a universal rule that says that only a specific age-range of women are to be considered desireable is unsustainable, for fairly obvious reasons.
The usually unstated reasoning is also a problem, of course. Much like the frequent manospherian preference for Asian women, it’s based on a belief that these women will be more easily manipulated and dominated; whether or not that bears any relation to reality or not is beside the point. If anyone is being ‘ageist’, it’s these men for attributing their fantasy personality for a woman to their youth.
“Except that isn’t what he said at all. He was merely observing the ages and behavior of pretty much all the guys in the video, and noting a commonality. Is one not allowed to make such observations?”
so what you are suggesting is “age realism” a concept similar to “race realism”. So in essence you dont have a problem observing the crime rates of lets say african americans and noticing higer crime rates per capita you are perfectly okay with race-profiling, stop and frisk,segregating housing, mandatory sentencing, abolising the 13th amendment etc. Hey you might also be okay with forced segregation since you know gotta protect people.
“Because, you know, there is a REASON a lot of older men creep on young women,”
what percentage of the total elderly male population prays on younger women.Any actual facts to back that claim? Also what is the REASON you are talking about. DO you prefer explaining it to me with evidence obviously.
” and why women’s attraction to men of a certain age has been routinely overstated by the media, ”
Which media? I mean obviously most young women arent attracted to older men but there are exceptions of beautiful consensual relationships. Why degrade and demonize these people for their choices? What have they done to you? WHo are they hurting. A comentator who hasnt gotten banned yet compare dthese types of relationships to pedophilia, zoophilia and rape. I remember a time when conservatives used to compare gay to zoophiles and pedophiles.
“and overestimated by these guys themselves. It’s called SEXISM.”
none of the people in the vidoe claim that they were attracted to younger women.
The fact that almost every single woman I know has experiences being creeped on by older men is evidence enough for me. Women talking about their experiences with misogyny is not equivalent to white people being racist against black people (and mistaking correlation with causation ). The reason it’s a false equivalency? Different power and privilege dynamics.
@Policy of madness
“Um, yeah. Preferences for children, for animals, and for rape are not acceptable. We do, in fact, make that judgment that only some preferences are acceptable.”
Oh yes, because a consensual relationship between two adults is the same as raping, and having sex wiht animals. I am shocked you are still allowed to trolll around here. Literally this is the exact same argument the homophbes used against gay marriage. Comparing two consensual adults with having sex with animals who can not give consent or to forcefully having sex wiht a woman is probably the most disgusting thing I have read outside of ultra conservative/racist blogs. What are you going to tell us next? That an elderly man with a young woman will destroy tradiitonal marriage? That these types of relationships will “corrupt” young people into doing the same? Are you serious or just trolling.
Hint to you mysoginistic/racist/myandristic homophobe: not all middle aged men are like those in the video just like if youre not white that doesnt mean you are a criminal. The young women who prefer elderly men do so for their own reasons, which are NONE of your business you disgusting mysoginist. You do not have the right to judge a womans sexual preference. Its stricly her busines……Hint: it mostly has to do with relationship maturity.
And the fact that you used the comparison with zoophilia,rape and pedophilia probably knowing full well the homophobic and vile history of those comparisons gives a pretty grim description of your character.
@wellrodtreehugger
“The fact that almost every single woman I know has experiences being creeped on by older men”
you dont get it do you? Theres no major difference between a 22 year old creep and a 50 year one. If a man is a creep age will not matter.
check this source out.
https://rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders
the average age of rapists is 31 years of age. About 16% are juveniles.
Anyone else catch a whiff of sock?