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a voice for men antifeminism empathy deficit entitled babies men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA straw feminists the eternal solipsism of the MRA mind the poster revolution has begun

Hey Ladies! Is this pathetic poster A Voice for Men’s response to threats against Toronto feminists? [UPDATED]

Masters of public relations at work
Masters of public relations at work

UPDATE: This poster (apparently) isn’t an official AVFM poster, but they have endorsed it. See bottom of post for details.

Is the appearance of this poster at a Toronto train station an example of inadvertently terrible timing, or an act of astounding assholery?

The poster in question was spotted at Toronto Transit’s Ossington station yesterday, a day after reports of online threats against University of Toronto women hit the media. Classy, AVFM, classy!

Adding to the ick factor: As one Twitterer pointed out, the bus line that goes through the U of T campus connects to the subway at Ossington Station.

Even if the timing of this little poster campaign is purely coincidental, it’s a little hard to fathom how anyone associated with AVFM would think that the best way to recruit Toronto women to their cause would be to essentially tell them: “We have no respect for you and no understanding of feminism; we like to imagine you suffering; come join us for some epic mansplaining!”

But AVFMers seem to have perpetual troubles telling the difference between “brilliant PR move” and “shitting their pants in public.”

Twitter parody account @TTCwelps had what is probably the best response to the poster.

And here’s a reminder that not everything that starts out with the phrase “hey ladies” is automatically terrible.

UPDATE: Here’s an official statement on the poster from AVFM’s Facebook page. It’s a little … confusing, in that they’re not entirely sure if it’s one of their posters or not.

A Voice for Men I do not recognize this poster and it does not appear to be one we created but AVFM salutes this individual for getting our name out there. Like · Comment · Share · 23 hrs Most Relevant 139 people like this. 12 shares David Futrelle Write a comment... Choose File A Voice for Men To the individual who posted this, feel free to contact us wink emoticon We have more shit for you to put up around Toronto.

 

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Mewens
Mewens
6 years ago

“Hey ladies,
Still unable to sling from rooftop to rooftop?
Mere human-powered punches not landing as well as your quips?
Able to pick up on red flags, but not sneak attacks?
How is not being a superhero working out for you?
Go to aradioactivespiderbitme.com”

… I’m actually wondering if that URL’s available, now that I’ve typed that out.

dhag85
6 years ago

@Tara

As usual, they simply can’t keep their stories straight. They hate women who have their own money, and they also hate women who don’t have money. As long as it’s about hating women, they’re for it. I’m suspecting they desperately need women to depend on men for dinner and drinks, because having to pay for dinner and drinks is one of their favorite things to complain about.

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
6 years ago

Not getting married is a goal of MRAS, isn’t it?

Unless you’re Dean Esmay, in which case not getting married is fatal.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

a ton of women

Who can be counted on one hand. Yeah, that’s a lot of women, all right.

manginas

There’s that word again…misogyny AND misandry, all in one ugly and mindless word. Because a vagina is truly the worst thing in the world to have/be!

Explain to me again what your bowel movement’s attraction for women is supposed to be. For that matter, what its attraction for MEN is supposed to be.

Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
6 years ago

@dhag85

Yeah, their reasoning (and I use that term loosely) seems to be, “If feeemales don’t need men to pay for stuff, how am I gonna get laid?”

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

anti-men campaigns

Those don’t exist.

How does it feel to be fighting a figment of your own imagination?

dhag85
6 years ago

I just had sort of a funny thought. Imagine a woman who really is a 30 year old feminist, unmarried and struggling to find dates, and with serious financial troubles. Imagine her seeing this poster without having any previous knowledge of AVfM. What would she think?

First of all, the name of the website clearly states it’s for men, so she would probably assume she either misread it or there’s a typo.

But imagine if she really did go to the website, expecting to find helpful advice for a woman in her situation. Imagine the confusion when faced with the actual content of AVfM.

Like others have already pointed out, there’s no way in hell this poster is actually meant to convince any woman.

dhag85
6 years ago

@Tara

Right? They’ve decided that it’s simply biofacts of human nature that men work and women freeload, so they despise women and men who won’t fall for that lie. But at the same time they seem to also hate this ‘reality’ that they’ve created for themselves. It’s almost as of they just want to be professional victims.

StarStorm
6 years ago

@bina
–a ton of women

—-Who can be counted on one hand. Yeah, that’s a lot of women, all right.

TECHNICALLY, depending on how many women and how much they weigh, he might actually be technically correct. If they’ve got maybe… hmmm… average weight of a woman is about 166 lbs as per google… I’d say as long as AVFM has 13 women, they do in fact have a ton of women.

Soooooo does AVFM have a ton of women? Well that’s still kind of debatable…

magnesium
magnesium
6 years ago

Well, it’s impressively legible for an MRA poster, I’ll give them that. MRA’s being able to make a poster that’s less than a thousand words with text that doesn’t blend or clash over the background is a feat.

The whole “You want some answers” thing reminds me of some religious propaganda. Scientology? I’m not sure.

alaisvex
alaisvex
6 years ago

@Gregory,

So, AVFM’s marketing campaign directed at women is basically to offer them husbands and free rent? Isn’t that, uh, kinda beta?

epitome of incomprehensibility

@Hipsterminator & Paradoxical Intention – Haha. Excellent. 🙂

@magnesium – Well, AVfM seems to think feminism is a religion – or some kind of proper noun, anyway – given that they’ve capitalized it. Then again, they also capitalized “Ladies,” and I don’t see any evidence of great respect for women in the poster.

epitome of incomprehensibility

Let me give it a try…

Hey A Voice for Men,
You randomly capitalize Nouns?
You find yourself asking questions phrased as statements?
How is lazy writing working for you?
Want some answers?
Go to http://bigwords101.com/ (the blogger/educator calls herself the Grammar Diva, which I’m sure is misandry somehow)

Kat
Kat
6 years ago

@Ikeke35

Men who have imagination, don’t join AVFM….I have found this to be a common truism among all bigots, though. Bigots lack the ability to imagine anything that’s outside of their worldview, which is why they’re so terrible at anything even remotely related to art. All they can do is ape stuff they’ve already observed, and only through the lens of their prejudices. It’s the reason they don’t understand memes or posters.

Well stated.

Maybe imaginative people are more able to imagine what it’s like to be in someone else’s position and so are less likely to want to lash out. And maybe bigots actually do have imagination but are blocking it–’cause that imagination won’t get them what they want, so it has to go. After all, babies have empathy. My mother, a neonatal nurse, said that if a baby starts crying in the nursery, you have to calm it right away. Because once one baby starts to cry, they all start to cry. Imagine a roomful of 35 squalling infants.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

I think I just found the perfect illustration of MRA “love” and why no one would want it:

‘Course, Frank was singing tongue in cheek, and these guys, lacking a sense of irony, would interpret all of that literally. Including the creepy rapey-beastly bit the end, with no words.

reallyfriendly
6 years ago

I’m so confused by the intent of the poster.

Is a pick-up poster trying desperately to get some female presence into the lonely manosphere life?

Is it a poster saying that AFVM can actually help women out with the stated issues? How? Last I checked they were concerned entirely about the men.

Is it a satirical poster? It could very well be.

Or is it an incredible dull and lame attempt to disparage feminism while imparting nothing of substance?

So many options to choose. Why are the AFVM people so philosophical? My brain hurts.

promisedlandpastor
6 years ago

Dude, I love what you do, Dave. I really do. But some days it’s hard to read your posts because they make my blood boil. And they hurt my head. I don’t understand how people can be this twisted around backwards. I don’t see why this is a hard thing to understand: if you’re an evolutionist, it makes sense to get along with people and keep the peace because peace ensures your progeny don’t, y’know, die. And if you’re one of the Christian MRAs, the Bible is pretty clear in its language that when man was put into a deep sleep by God, God didn’t just take a rib out of him to make Eve. Rather, the word that is used (tsela) means He took half of man and used it to make woman. So they are 50/50 partners. Simple as that. So you can’t be a Biblical Christian and be an MRA: the two are mutually exclusive. And I could go through SO many other sections of Bible, for example Genesis 3:15 vs. Song of Songs 7:10, Christ’s compassionate ministry to women, etc. etc.

My point is, it seems most of these goombas are either atheists arguing that they should plow as many women as possible to get their “alpha” on or Christians arguing that women need to “know their place.” Neither of those seem to be logically sound positions, nor does evidence seem to bear them up. So they don’t hold water. So why are so many guys taken in by this that we have lades like Sarkeesian being docs’d, Ellen Pao being run out of her job, and death threats being called in to female CEOs? What the actual heck, men? What the actual heck?

This Handle is a Test
This Handle is a Test
6 years ago

Something I’ve found helpful in my life, not that I’m an expert or perfect is the following:

http://data.whicdn.com/images/39517598/large.jpg

This is the thing that is, at least partly, the root of MRA toxicity. Would I be better off with even an “eh” marriage? Probably, but that doesn’t mean that the other person would be. Life is not always “I want, I want, I want!”. If I had to hurt someone to achieve my goals I’d have problems with it, while, well, I think we know what many MRAs (including whoever posted this) would feel.

Also, though it isn’t really a valid point (see below), it *can* be easier to afford permanent level housing (whether condo or house) in a couple because, from experience, I’ve found that two incomes/one housing cost was one of the biggest money multipliers you can find (and, in my experience, post-college roommate experience is essentially hanging a sign around your neck saying “Steal from Me!”). Having said that, it is certainly attainable to achieve this for a single person (male or female) and once your initial loan is paid off, still cheaper than renting (or paying the combination of lawyers and the joint property settlement in a divorce).

Sorry for the long post, but that’s how I feel.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

Is it a poster saying that AFVM can actually help women out with the stated issues? How? Last I checked they were concerned entirely about the men.

Only some men. I can never get over that they explicitly reject the idea that their mandate should include all men.

It’s A Voice for Men, But Only Men Who Agree That Women Are Terrible, You Feminist Men Aren’t Really Men, And What Was Stop And Frisk? I Never Heard Of That Before Just Now.

Paradoxical Intention
6 years ago

Policy of Madness | September 13, 2015 at 12:24 am

Is it a poster saying that AFVM can actually help women out with the stated issues? How? Last I checked they were concerned entirely about the men.

Only some men. I can never get over that they explicitly reject the idea that their mandate should include all men.

It’s A Voice for Men, But Only Men Who Agree That Women Are Terrible, You Feminist Men Aren’t Really Men, And What Was Stop And Frisk? I Never Heard Of That Before Just Now.

A Voice for (Straight, Cisgendered, White, Middle-Class) Men Who Hate Women, Men Who Think Women are People Too, and Men Who Don’t Agree With Us.

Paradoxical Intention
6 years ago

But of course, AVfM mostly just hates women.

GrumpyOldSocialJusticeMangina

@wwth, you owe me a new keyboard and a new nose to replace the one I nearly destroyed with soda.

You needed to give a trigger warning for destructive snorting.

GrumpyOldSocialJusticeMangina

And I am just slightly less amused by the idea that they have any answers for single women over 30 at AVfM. I mean, do they really want a woman who is desperate enough to latch onto a man who hates women? (Or could it just be that the man who made this poster didn’t actually think what he was doing through? I know, ask a silly question …)

reallyfriendly
6 years ago

@Policy and Paradoxical Intention

A Voice For Men With Serious Issues

Concise 8p

Olive O'Sudden
Olive O'Sudden
6 years ago

Postering like that on TTC property is illegal and whomever put it up should be fined. Do we know if this really was an AVFM-created-and-approved poster? I know that they’d deny that they produced and/or posted it, which is certainly plausible given that it looks like something someone printed at home on legal-size paper, but the poor phrasing is certainly classic MRA.

If that is Ossington Station, then that’s not the main entrance on Ossington Street (which leads to both trains and the bus platform), but rather the automatic entrance/exit on Delaware Street that isn’t staffed (no collector/station agent) and only leads directly to the train platforms. Anyone arriving at Ossington by the 94 Ossington bus that runs through the U of T downtown campus between Ossington and Wellesley stations wouldn’t have been confronted by the poster.

(I don’t mean to diminish the U of T connection, but there are so many other and better routes to and within the campus, and the campus itself is so walkable, that those taking the 94 really are a minority. The 94 is the only bus that runs east-west through the middle of campus, but it does have a history of being notoriously unreliable in keeping on schedule, and as Ossington station itself has some serious accessibility deficiencies, it’s not a route that students who need elevators or escalators would use.)
http://map.utoronto.ca/

misseb47
misseb47
6 years ago

What the hell are they on about? What has marriage got to do with feminism? Feminism is about equal rights and giving women the freedom to make their own choices regarding marriage, employment, having kids, etc. As for the whole unmarried at 30 thing, they do know that the average age of marriage for women is around 29, right?

misseb47
misseb47
6 years ago

I have to admit, though. That sign is so much more comprehensible than they usually are. But I have no idea what they are trying to achieve by this other than making a quick jab at feminism and women. Do they really think many women will go to that site? After all it is called A Voice for Men. Also, do they SERIOUSLY think that the women that will go to the site will stick around once they see that it is full of misogynistic garbage? I sure don’t.

dhag85
6 years ago

@misseb47

Exactly my thought process as well. I went to AVfM just to see what I would be faced with, trying to put myself in the shoes of this imaginary 30 year old unmarried feminist woman. Top stories: “Another campus rape hoax”, “The Blair Bitch Project”, “Say Goodbye to Crazy – Introduction to Crazy: Divorce Bitterness”.

Just.. which one of these stories is supposed to help with the whole dating thing?

bananananana dakry
bananananana dakry
6 years ago

@misseb

I think the general reaction of women who would actually check out AVFM’s site out of curiosity would be “holy SHIT did I just dodge a bullet here!”

Also I got married at the decrepit age of 42 last year. Neener, manurespherisns.

dhag85
6 years ago

Off topic, but flipping through the articles on AVfM on my phone in bed last night (FML), I found this incredibly poorly written MGTOW fantasy/true story. I wanted to quote something from it, but now on my laptop I can’t find the story because the layout of the site is completely different. Anyone ever tried to navigate AVfM? It’s such a fucking mess.

I give up. Can’t find it. I’m gonna approximate the quote from memory. So, this story is by a MGTOW talking about his experiences as such. At one point in the text he claims to be a rape victim, and that he was raped by another man. Obviously I don’t have any particular reason to doubt this claim. But his description of his interaction with the police seemed a bit strange to me. It was something like: “they only said I could not have been raped because men can’t legally be raped, and in fact as a man I was by definition a rapist”. Now, I don’t think very highly of the police, but I kinda doubt this actually happened as described. It’s pretty telling of the AVfM readership and commenters that people simply accept that a police officer said all men are by definition rapists. They don’t even reality at all.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

There are many ways in which police officers respond in negative, unhelpful, or actively hostile ways to male victims of rape, but “you must be the real rapist because: man” is not one I have actually heard of happening in reality.

dhag85
6 years ago

@PoM

Yeah, and also.. the rapist and the victim in this scenario were both men. So, by the alleged logic of the alleged police officer, they should’ve both been arrested? I don’t get how this even makes sense if we accept the general MRA narrative.

autosoma
6 years ago
Reply to  alaisvex

@alaisvex, I thought AVFM was inherently beta, because if your an Alfa you inherently have a voice and people hear it regardless, cos you’re alfda, not the shouty, complainy, posturing of “look at me I’m a big loud man and shouting isn’t whining and you’d better listen, otherwise I’m gonna shout (whine) louder”.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

Feminism made it okay to be 30 and unmarried. Only in the tiny realm of backwards-upside down-AVfM Land, where it’s still 1800, is it not okay.

They’re furious at feminism because feminism took away the only weapon they had with which to maneuver women into submission. They’re still trying to brandish it at us, only what they’re holding is a pathetic styrofoam pool noodle with a daisy stuck in the end.

It’s also total false advertising, given the constant, deafening anti-marriage refrain in the manosphere. You’d be hard-pressed to find much stable, happy LTR experience at AVfM. If a woman really wanted to get married, why would she ask a bunch of guys obsessed with plate-spinning, serial banging, and divorce rape? Why would she go someplace where “oneitis” is considered a disease?

The sign should be more like “Hey fish! Have you reached age 30 and haven’t found a bicycle yet? Doesn’t feminism suck?? Go to “A Voice For Committed Pedestrians Against Wheels”! We have all the answers on bicycles!”

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

@dhag85

Well, as I’m sure you know, there are many in the MRA and adjacent crowd who advance the position, with a perfectly straight face, that the natural extension of “having sex with someone too drunk to consent = rape” reasoning is that all parties to drunken sex are mutually committing rape. The scenario you describe is just a new color on that … erm … “argument.”

Subtract Hominem, the Renegade Misandroid
Subtract Hominem, the Renegade Misandroid
6 years ago

I think I get it:

Much in the same way that a Nigerian 419 email self-selects the people who might fall for it through a wildly implausible story and poor spelling/grammar, this poster is using absurdities to target only women who are entirely ignorant of feminism.

Whether this implies that the person who made the poster knows that AVfM is a scam is left as an exercise to the reader.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

It’s possible they’re fishing for unhappily single women to come to AVfM so they can gloat at her, and use her relationship woes to validate their revenge fantasy that feminism causes all of its adherents to end up bitter and lonely and desperate after hitting the wall at 30. “See”, they’ll say, “We TOLD you so! That’s what you get for riding the cock carousel for too long!” *echoing peals of dank, backlit laughter*

And then they’ll ignore her, because women over 25 do not exist in their world. They’re certainly not marriageable – MRAs regard older women as “spoiled milk” – so the idea that they’d be offering any sort of help or good advice is ludicrous.

Also, LOLOLOL at “high condo fees” (those are, what, a couple hundred bucks a month?) and the assumption that all single women buy condos. Because yardwork is a mayun’s job and feeeemales need to rely on condo services to keep the lawn mowed and the hedges trimmed.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ Policyofmadness

all parties to drunken sex are mutually committing rape.

In England that is now the position under our latest Sexual Offences Act (although any non penetrating party would be guilty of ‘sexual assault’ as penetration is an element of rape).

There’s a new offence of ‘permitting’ sexual activity by a non consenting party. This was to deal with people who ‘passively’ allow a non consenting person to engage in sexual activity with them, or even in front of them.

In practice the CPS would consider whether the circumstances to see if there was evidence of capacity to consent, but as a matter of law, if neither party had capacity through drink or drugs then both would be guilty of an offence (in English law you can be a victim and an offender at the same time).

In such circumstances the CPS are likely to take the ‘well, if you press charges, they’ll press charges, so are you bothered about this?’ approach that they’re fond of when they can’t figure out who’s responsible for an act (you see this a lot in assault cases).

kupo
kupo
6 years ago

@buttercup

Also, LOLOLOL at “high condo fees” (those are, what, a couple hundred bucks a month?)

I’m not even quite sure how to respond to that. A condo is not cheap. They’re generally more expensive than an apartment because you have homeowners association dues on top of the mortgage payments, and let’s not forget that you need to be wealthy enough to convince a bank to give you a mortgage, which they’re not wrong about that being difficult to do on a single income. Actually, women successful enough to own a condo in the first place are probably the last people AVFM should be targeting with this, so that shows how out of touch they are.

In Toronto the average price of a condo is $416,728. I put that into a mortgage calculator along with the property tax rate value in Toronto of 0.7% on a property of that value and left the default interest rate of 4%, and the payments came out to $2,232.61 per month. That doesn’t include homeowners association dues, which I couldn’t find a good estimate for in Toronto, but on one mortgage advice website it said, “Typical HOA fees can range anywhere from a couple hundred dollars per month up to nearly a thousand dollars.” For what it’s worth, when I owned my own condo before moving in with my husband, it was over $400 per month.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

@kupo – Around here, median condo fees range from $100 – $400. Condo fees shouldn’t be confused with mortgage, which is entirely separate (ditto property taxes and insurance). That’s why I was mocking them, because condo fees are typically much cheaper than rent or mortgage. (Heck, I wish I was only paying that much per month for housing.). If someone is only paying condo fees, it means they own, and are in a very different financial position than someone who’s also having to make mortgage payments. They’re less likely to be struggling financially.

If they meant mortgage, or total housing costs, they should have said so. For people who pride themselves on logic, they sure are sloppy with their terminology.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

Also, banks take condo fees into account when approving loans, so the total monthly payment ends up being about the same for single family house vs. condo. You’ll get more square footage for a comparably priced house, but then you’ll have to do all the exterior maintenance yourself, or pony up for landscape services.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

TL;DR: the idea that condo fees are “high” compared to rent or mortgage is ridiculous.

kupo
kupo
6 years ago

@buttercup I read “high condo fees” as meaning the total cost of living in a condo, not the HOA dues.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

Also, LOLOLOL at “high condo fees” (those are, what, a couple hundred bucks a month?) and the assumption that all single women buy condos. Because yardwork is a mayun’s job and feeeemales need to rely on condo services to keep the lawn mowed and the hedges trimmed.

Given that most condos in Toronto are high-rises, and that there is little or no yard around them at all, there isn’t even that. Unless they’re talking window-washers (who can be of any sex), they got bupkus.

BTW, kupo’s right. Women who WOULD be able to buy a condo in TO, are the very last women who’d take AVFM’s juvenilia seriously. Now, if they’d mentioned renters, they might be onto something. Apartments in TO are cramped and ridiculously overpriced. Renting a house is barely possible there. Owning one, especially in the Beaches, is almost impossible.

I think what they’re trying to do is just take pot-shots at any woman who’s scratched out even a modestly satisfactory life for herself. “Oh, so you think you’re successful because you have a good career and a home of your own? Sorry, honey, but if you haven’t married before you’re 25, you’re SCUM! SCUM! SCUM! Green slimy pond SCUM!” >whine whine sulk pout<

(And let's not forget, either, that oh-so-big-and-macho Paulie has had anything BUT a successful career, and is maybe still mooching off his girlfriend, if she hasn't left him already.)

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

@kupo – “Fees” to me sounds like what the homeowner’s association charges. I’ve never heard a mortgage officer refer to a bank loan as a fee.

“Tired of high housing costs?” would have been a better catchall phrase.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

High cost of living – particularly housing – is an issue globally in many large cities. It’s an issue in their beloved Asia which they view as devoid of women with opinions. I know it’s a problem in Tokyo and Hong Kong. I’m guessing it probably is in Seoul too.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Sigh. I didn’t finish my thought before posting. I’m just saying high housing costs have fuck all to do with feminists and reasonable people blame other factors for it. Only in the manosphere is “everything bad is feminist’s fault” a tenable position.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

Also, there’s a lot of irony in the fact that high housing prices have been a major driver of women entering the workforce over the past few decades. For many families, having two incomes is a matter of survival. It’s the only way they can afford a roof over their heads.

But no, let’s blame feminism!

scribbles
scribbles
6 years ago

In all honesty, this poster is probably a good thing. Anyone interested enough to look into it and ignorant of the manosphere would get a pretty quick education in organized misogyny.

As others have pointed out, the website’s current articles are like “women: literally hitler?” so AVFM, again, shoots themselves in the foot.

Then again it’s possible the target audience is actually disgruntled manchildren. The poster actively attacks women and advertises AVFM, so it’s possible they’re just trying to recruit more manbabies who are literally too afraid of women to talk to them.