Comedian Damon Wayans seems to be a shoo-on for this week’s Shitty Rape Apologist Shithead of the Week award.
In an interview on Power 105.1’s The Breakfast Club show on Friday, Wayans attacked Bill Cosby’s accusers — or at least the majority of them — as money-hustling “bitches” too ugly to have been really raped.
Wayans’ explanation for why 50 women have stepped forward with similar stories of drugging and sexual assault at the hands of Cosby?
I don’t believe he was raping. I think he was in relationships with all of them, and then he’s like, ‘You know what, [I’m] 78, I can’t get it up for any of y’all, bye bitches.’ And now they’re like, ‘Oh, really? Rape.’ Forty years — listen, how big is his penis that it gives you amnesia for 40 years? …
If you listen to them talk, they go, ‘Well, the first time…’ The first time? Bitch, how many times did it happen? Just listen to what they’re saying and some of them really is unrape-able. I look at them and go, ‘I don’t want that. Get outta here.’ [Laughs]
He added:
Look, I understand fame. I’ve lived it. Women will throw themselves at you. They just want to be in your presence. There’s some that innocently will come up there, but not 40-something women. They’re not that naïve.
You’re talkin’ about, what, in 1965 he just walked into someone’s dressing room and put his penis in their mouth?
Backtracking a little, Wayans later said that he thought some of the accusations could be true.
And for them, my heart goes out to them. For anybody who was raped by Bill Cosby, I’m sorry, and I hope you get justice. You other bitches, look. …
What’s the joy of banging someone who’s asleep?
Lovely.
Breakfast Club co-host Angela Yee pushed back against some of Wayans’ assertions, pointing out that many of the women came forward decades ago. In an aside that seems to have gone unnoticed in the coverage of Wayans’ remarks, she said that when she was a little girl her mother told her she knew someone who’d been drugged (and presumably raped) by Cosby.
50 women have already come forward; I wonder how many more there are?
For more quotes from the interview, see Gossip Cop. Or you can watch the actual interview below; skip ahead to 26 minutes in.
Fuck Damon Wayans. Fuck him all the way to hell.
Well, I assume that the question was asked in good faith, so no problem, let’s talk about privilege (of which I have as much as you can get without being rich and/or famous, which is, pretty much of it). But before that, let me clarify something:
My comment was not a response to the Damon thing, but to the link posted in a comment, which talked about the alleged fact that some kinds of comics don’t have much chances of being booked at colleges – despite getting huge loads of applause. And while it is of course the right of every organizer to chose his acts, still that – and some responses here (the “boho, the bad comic cannot tell rape jokes anymore” kind of responses) – rubbed me the wrong way, assuming that the article was correct, if offered a discrepancy between the audiences preferences and the actual booking (and I didn’t take it the way that all the comics were just some assholes throwing around rape jokes). As I already mentioned, perhaps it’s just a misled feeling, but perhaps it’s actually also a hint at a systematic problem. I don’t claim it is, it’s just a feeling that it might be. I hope it’s wrong, because that would be a good thing. Personally, I would give it a 2% chance of actually being something more than a bad feeling for the wrong reasons, but that’s just guessing. So, yes, if you can convince me that my feelings are just me and not an indication of reality, I would actually be glad, thanks. And no, I don’t believe in conspiracies… Ok, I actually do (there seem to happen some shaddy things in politics, which have unfortunately nothing to do with the Illuminati, because that would be at least cool, but reality probably has just the boring conspiracies of rich guys with power using that power to get what they want), but not that a mystical group of whatevers are conspiring to prevent certain comics from being booked. If it was a systematic problem, then it would be social and cultural, but not a conspiracy.
So, let’s talk about my privileges and see if it helps. So, I’m 35-ish, having a good job in IT, white, cis-gendered male, no childhood (or otherwise) abuse, no drugs (not even alocohol), a steady partner (monogamous), Biker, pretty much overweight… While I am an atheist, living in a major German city, this is as troubling to most people as being a stamp collector: Nobody cares, especially not in my line of work. I’m not gay, but wouldn’t have any problems with being it (besides the whole discrimination thing, which is quite bad, but not the homosexuality itself). If I could chose, I would probably choose pansexuality. Well, I cannot, as probably everyone else, I’m just what I am and some things just don’t turn me one while others do. Also, as we are with disclosing stuff, I’m heavily into BDSM (top), but I don’t think that this somehow reflects a natural order of things, just personal tastes of two people in a relationship (wouldn’t mind being bottom, but again, I’m simply not). I tend pretty much to the left (although not the extremes), but for example I wouldn’t vote for a party that doesn’t support a much better treatment of immigrants (and I don’t care why anynone comes here – I just say “welcome.”).
Now you could explain to me that I’m very privileged. Well, wasted time, I already knew that. Compared to 99% (probably you could add some digits there after a comma but let’s not nitpick here) of the world, I’m living a dream, no doubt about that.
I wouldn’t consider myself a feminist – because I’m not active enough to do that. Sometimes I argue for feminism (as long as people offer stupid enough things to rebuke with my limited understanding), but I’m not really active about it otherwise, so I would call myself a sympathizer of feminism, but not a feminist myself, haven’t earned that, perhaps never will. I don’t consider myself an equalist, since fighting for equal rights of the dudes in power seems a waste of time, as much as fighting for the financial security of rich people. (Don’t get me wrong, men have problems, too, many of them probably coming from the same sexism that plagues women, but all in all, if I needed to decide who actually has bigger problems, the choice would be easy). Came here a while ago, don’t know from there, probably from a newsposting on rational wiki and have learned much about MRM, etc. here. Short: I don’t like them. Even if I agree that there are some problems for men (I do) and even if I agreed that they are much worse than women’s problems (I don’t), these guys are as capable at solving them as a group of monkeys throwing feces (ok, that wasn’t nice, no further insulting monkeys here, I promise).
Well, you asked, you got an answer. Probably nobody cares anyway. 😉
My personal favorite are comedians who complain about how “sensitive” other people are for objecting to their jokes but who get defensive and hurt everytime someone dares to criticize them and not respect their poor, sensitive feelings.
AR wrote: “Calling it a choice is a gross, insulting oversimplification.” (about being fat).
Of course, you’re right! But that’s the point. People will find excuses and justifications to mock the things they want to mock. That’s been the rationale to mock fat people–that they “chose” to be fat, after all, they eat too much! (Which may be technically true, if the fatness is due to too much caloric intake only, and not due to some illness or other physical reason.) But those who want to fat shame don’t want to explore the background of the fat person, or other factors that cause them to take in too many calories.
Earlier someone said it was okay for comedians to mock something that is a “choice,” and that’s what reminded me of fat people. That’s the reason and justification for mocking them.
So where do you draw the line? It’s not okay to mock fat people (I agree!). I have been tormented when I had some extra weight and it drove me nuts when people would say that I could avoid it if I lost weight (as if that was the root of the problem, MY weight, and not some other people being assholes).
I don’t want to live in a world where it’s never okay to crack a joke or be irreverent, but I’m not sure where the line is to be drawn. Many of us draw the line at mocking fat people (me included) but what if the line is drawn somewhere else for other people? I brought up religion before, is that okay to mock? I’m a person of faith, I certainly don’t think that my beliefs are above reproach, but I admit that if someone feels it’s okay to mock me, then I should get to mock their beliefs too. (Only I don’t usually want to do that! I don’t think it helps anything to engage in tit for tat.)
What exactly is it that makes one group off limits to mocking, but another group acceptable to mock? It’s an interesting question.
Personally, I think the only group that it’s okay to mock are assholes. Whether they’re politicians, business moguls, celebrities, or people who park their cars with enough space either side for another car – if they’d only bothered to move up and not be a lazy asshole. You know the ones I mean.
I don’t mock religion, I reserve the right to mock really stupid things that people spout because of their religion (eg, Creationism, anti-feminism, etc).
@peristyle
You just stated that people don’t know if being fat is a choice or not do to medical reasons, so you just answered your own question.
In fact, “mocking” isn’t much of a “joke”. If the punchline is “haha! They’re fat!” Like, why is it funny that they’re fat? What makes people being fat funny?
Mocking anything isn’t a joke. Mocking people for believing in certain things, looking a certain way or whatever is just mocking. A joke is more elegant than pointing out traits in someone that you don’t like. A joke should point out why those traits are either good or bad, and none of those involve a trait being bad just because it’s there.
And you can choose to believe in gods but you aren’t born with a glandular problem that makes you believe in gods. I don’t believe there’s any medical condition that makes one HAVE to have a religion.
Off topic space geekery time.
A 13.2 billion year old galaxy has been detected. The oldest yet!
Sounds fair to me.
Oops. Meant to add a link http://gizmodo.com/this-is-the-oldest-galaxy-weve-found-so-far-1729038001
@ WWTH
Hmm, if inflation is correct then shouldn’t reionisation occur at the same time across the universe? Although I suppose there may have been some tiny quantum fluctuation that’s reflected in the particular spot.
Somewhat OT, but a woman was raped and killed a few days ago in my town. She was in her sixties, so there goes wayan’s “un rape-able” theory. Today there was a “peace rally” to show support and some misguided fuckers thought it would be a good idea to include a self-defense demonstration. Here’s a really poignant blog post addressing it. Really captures the disconnect in people’s brains regarding rape culture, and it’s a welcome change to see something online that nails it:
https://joshjasper.wordpress.com
Nitram,
I was just about to post this article about self defense/rape prevention tactics and how useless they are. Your post segues nicely into it.
http://www.salon.com/2015/09/05/just_how_helpful_are_those_dont_get_raped_tips_women_are_fed_their_whole_lives/
sunnysombrera-
That’s really the root of it all, isn’t it. Good humor punches up, comforts the afflicted, and afflicts the comfortable and all that.
Bad humor does the opposite. Hits the easy targets, exploits social stereotypes, comforts the comfortable and afflicts the afflicted.
And the thing about it is that bad humor is easier. You don’t even need to be funny. All you need to do is remind people of something they have heard somewhere before and play to their baser instincts of hatred and prejudice. Hell, it’s often more rewarded as there will be no shortage of professional assholes who will shake your hand and tell you that you’re doing a great job showing those PC types whatfor.
Whereas, good comedy takes risks. How many great comedians have there been who’ve actually faced genuine political consequences for taking a stand. Bill Hicks, George Carlin, and Richard Pryor all faced genuine consequences, threats, and harassment for standing against cultural norms and making the dominant groups question themselves. In fact, the more marginalized the member making the statements, the more dire the consequences often were in terms of career and personal safety. And while monetary success can come about, there’s an often harder road of it than telling some easy homophobic and PMS jokes and cashing the check.
Which makes this whole debate extra insulting. Because it’s a bunch of lazy ass motherfuckers wanting the easy road and not face any consequences of there finally being a venue who actually wants to reward some good comedy for once instead of playing host to the assholes of the world patting each other on the back.
“Personally, I think the only group that it’s okay to mock are assholes.”
As has often been said, “Punch up.” It’s a simple rule. Two syllables. Only the lazy, hacky, and unimaginative violate it.
Cerberus, you cut through bad reasoning like a philosophical katana.
sunnysombrero, I like your idea to mock only assholes!
takshack, I wouldn’t even go that far. I’d ask myself, what is it that this person believes in, that is hurting me or someone else? If they *personally* believe in flying monkeys, but they’re harming no one–it’s just a private thought in their heads–I’d giggle a little but I probably leave them alone. But if they’re constantly talking about flying monkeys and how I should believe in them too, then that’s a different thing.
Pandapool wrote: “Mocking anything isn’t a joke. Mocking people for believing in certain things, looking a certain way or whatever is just mocking. A joke is more elegant than pointing out traits in someone that you don’t like. A joke should point out why those traits are either good or bad, and none of those involve a trait being bad just because it’s there.”
That’s a good way to put it. I’d also say that a joke can be done from the inside, meaning that you share the experiences or qualities yourself, and are laughing with the subject (targets?) of the joke. Actually, those often make the best jokes of all. Some of the most hilarious jokes aren’t ones that are a commentary on whether something is good or bad, but about a shared experience. (I recall a guy doing a whole routine about having kids, and some of the things kids do and how the parents respond. I’m not a parent, but I found that routine hilarious. I wasn’t thinking the comedian was making a commentary on whether parenthood was good or bad, but he was showing a shared experience, and it was a successful bit.)
Pandapool: “And you can choose to believe in gods but you aren’t born with a glandular problem that makes you believe in gods. I don’t believe there’s any medical condition that makes one HAVE to have a religion.”
Why does that matter? Many belief systems are part of a culture, so in order to give up that belief system, a person would have to turn their back on their family, their heritage, and their identity. Are they “asking for it” (being mocked) if they’re unwilling to give all that up? But even if it’s something that they consciously chose, so what?
Some people are fat just because they eat too much. I can be guilty of that myself. I still don’t think it’s anyone’s business if I’m overweight, because it’s my life and no one else’s. If I’m fat because of a completely conscious choice, that’s still no excuse for someone to be an asshole to me. If I make a conscious choice to wear a style of clothes that others don’t like, or dye my hair a color that others don’t like, then that still doesn’t give anyone the right to be an asshole to me. People can just mind their own damn businesses.
With belief systems, I think that someone would have to show that another person has infringed on their rights as an individual because of their belief system. I think they have to *do* something tangibly wrong or support something terrible, before it’s okay to mock them. Just like someone who dyes their hair a different color–who cares as long as it’s not doing something wrong to anyone else?
I know a deeply religious man who is the dearest man ever. Eighty years old. I don’t share his beliefs but I’d never anything about his particular faith that would hurt his feelings. Do I think that there are some messed-up things that have happened in his church? Yes. But he’s not guilty of that. Would I say that to *him* or laugh at a joke about his church with *him* around? Hell no. I love him. I love every part of him, and respect even the parts of him that I don’t agree with.
I understand that there are deserving criticisms of some faiths and other belief systems, but I’ve had people interact with me, one-on-one, be rude and obnoxious, just on the assumption that I must be a bigot or somehow dangerous, even though they really know nothing about what I’ve done, or what I believe in. (My faith has not mandated that I make others’ lives more difficult, so I fail to see how I’m a big threat to anyone.) Yet their reason is that I believe in a magical sky god, therefore I’m a dumbass, and it’s cool to be an asshole to me.
Sorry for getting so off the subject of this particular post, but this is something that has been bugging me. There sometimes seems to be a double standard.
You realize your asking us to prove a negative, right? How about you try to provide some evidence that there IS a systemic problem?
As has been established comics don’t have a right to perform at colleges who choose not to book them, so there’s no injustice there. Are comics being denied their right to exercise their freedom at speech at venues that choose to provide them a platform? No. Are comics being thrown into jail/fined for their jokes? No. Are students who enjoy that comics material allowed to see them at other venues or online? No. Are the college bookers following the college’s academic procedures properly? No evidence they aren’t.
“Alleged” A.K.A. statement you haven’t been able to prove yet expect everyone to take as fact. Any evidence that these comics are popular with the students at the college? No of course not, you have jack shit proof.
Of course you didn’t, that’s your privilege getting in the way. Literally every single comedian I’ve seen complain has been about “PC culture” getting worse and that’s why they can’t get booked. So yes they are complaining about not being able to tell misogynistic/racist/homophobic etc. jokes. Show me a single example of a comedian who can’t get booked who doesn’t tell those kinds of jokes.
Well your responses rub me the wrong way because you decided to derail a thread about a comedian making rape jokes to be all about those poor comics who think they’re entitled to an audience and whining about PC culture.
@peristyle
There’s a difference in believing in something and having to worship something. You can go through the motions of being religious without being religious. You can go to church and not believe in the Christian god but rather Vishnu or even be an atheist.
If you don’t want to alienate yourself from your family, you go through these motions, but it’s still a choice whether or not you truly believe in something.
Pandapool: “There’s a difference in believing in something and having to worship something. You can go through the motions of being religious without being religious. You can go to church and not believe in the Christian god but rather Vishnu or even be an atheist.
If you don’t want to alienate yourself from your family, you go through these motions, but it’s still a choice whether or not you truly believe in something.”
So what? That’s what I’ve been saying. It’s my business what I choose to embrace and love, but being raised in a family which encouraged me to love particular religious, regional, and cultural things was a strong influence. Unless there was something so terrible about what I was raised with, that I felt the need to reject it or escape it, I’m going to continue the feel the way I do now about it.
Many things we are in life are technically “choices,” but it can still make other people assholes if they mock us for it.
I disagree. What does it mean to believe in something? It means you think, on the balance of the available evidence (including your own experiences) that something exists or is true. You find the arguments in favor of that thing convincing. That’s not something you can turn on and off at will. You can potentially train yourself to believe or disbelieve something, by seeking out different evidence, but it’s still up in the air whether you will find it plausible.
@peristyle
I don’t approve of mocking, like I said before. The punchline “haha! you’re religious!” is lazy. Joking and mocking are two different things. A person has every right to be offended by mocking, but a person should be secure enough in their choices to endure jokes.
@karalora
Hey, I didn’t say it was easy to choose your religion, I just said you could.
Pandapool, I agree that no one should be above having to endure some ribbing. But there’s the mean-spirited jokes and the good-natured jokes (or the jokes where someone makes fun of a group they belong to). Not everyone will agree on which is which.
I also believe there shouldn’t be a double standard. If it’s okay to joke about one thing (in a non-asshole way) then why not other things? Who should be protected from that and who shouldn’t? Shouldn’t we ALL be secure enough to endure jokes?
As for choosing your beliefs (this would be religious and non-religious) I don’t know if it’s always possible to really choose.
Could a die-hard atheist choose to be religious? Could they use their own force of will to *make* themselves belief in something, even though it would be really really hard? Why would they? Flip the coin and ask the religious person the same thing. Do we know what experiences they’ve had which led them to that belief? If they had compelling experiences, why would they try to forget them and change their beliefs? That’s like them denying something they *know* they saw and felt.
Ahem:
This will never NOT be relevant.