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So yesterday I posted about the repulsive, rapey banners that some frat guys hung from the balcony of their frat at Old Dominion University in Virginia. Banners that were so obviously problematic that the school administration immediately suspended the frat to investigate.
Here. as a reminder, are the banners in question:
I also quoted Amanda Marcotte, who noted that, when faced with clear evidence of rape culture like these banners, rape apologists like to
suddenly pretend they are aliens from another planet and only learned human language last week and therefore are incapable of picking up on humor, implication, non-verbal communication and nuanced language. They pretend to ascribe to a form of communication so literal that even the slightest bit of metaphor or implication, to hear them talk, sends them spinning into a state of confusion.
After I put up my post yesterday, several rape culture deniers wandered into my Twitter mentions, as if to prove Marcotte’s point, posting pictures of banners put up by sorority women at the school and demanding to know why I wasn’t attacking these women for their alleged promotion of rape culture as well.
@DavidFutrelle HOW HORRIBL- … wait, what happens if i look to the right? ohhh i see … nice try :^) pic.twitter.com/ViClZV0RBu
— Dragunov (@NkDragunov) August 25, 2015
https://twitter.com/WoolyBumblebee/status/636343927914786817
I suspect most of you are as nonplussed by this as I was. Because these banners don’t actually promote rape culture. And not because the people holding them up are women, not men.
The frat’s banners have a creepy, predatory edge to them. They are addressed not to the incoming freshmen women, but to the fathers of these women. They strongly suggest that any woman who walks through their doors — or is “dropped off” by dad — is going to be shown a “rowdy … good time” whether she’s “ready” for it or not.
They don’t explicitly use the word “rape” but given how completely they erase the agency of the young women in question they might as well just do that.
The rape threat is implicit, not explicit, but it is clear enough that most people seeing these banners can understand in an instant what they “really mean” and what the problem is.
The banners held up by the sorority women are a different thing entirely. They don’t put forth the message: “we are going to do things to you (whether you like it or not).” They are playful, not threatening, and tell prospective dates “we like sex, and if you get with us you might even get to do ‘butt stuff.'”
The first banner only asks that men pull out before they come; no one wants any babies. The second tells men they are “welcome” to use the back door, nudge nudge. Instead of saying “we will do things to you,” they say “you can do things to us.” Presumably in the context of consensual sex.
Just as rape =/= sex, talking about sex =/= talking about rape.
Is it creepy that when new freshmen men arrive on the campus they’re greeted with giant banners aimed at them and laden with sexual innuendo? Maybe, but it’s nowhere near as creepy as banners greeting freshman women (and their mothers) with not-very-subtle threats of rape.
I tried to get this point across to one of my Twitter interlocutors, the antifeminist Youtube gadfly WoolyBumblebee; it didn’t take. Some excerpts of the ensuing “discussion.”
Rape threats, even implicit ones, are rape culture. Mentions of sex aren’t. You’d think this wouldn’t be hard to understand.
Does WoolyBumblebee really not understand that if someone says “you can put it in my butt” they are not threatening to rape you?
It might not be the appropriate thing to bring up at, say, a dinner party. And if you say it repeatedly to someone not interested in sex with you, it would be sexual harassment.
But it wouldn’t be a rape threat.
WoolyBumblebee more or less conceded this point shortly afterwards. And returned to claiming (or pretending) she didn’t see the threat in the banners posted by the frat guys.
Around and around we go!
Or we would have if I hadn’t gotten off the internet to watch an episode of Mr. Robot.
The question I am left with, as I generally am in the wake of “discussions” with those who seem to be incapable of understanding the basics of human language, is this: Are these people really this literal-minded and obtuse, or are they just pretending?
If the former, how exactly do they manage to even work a computer? Did they make bird noises at their laptop or into their phone for weeks on end before someone explained that’s not how Twitter works? Do they understand the difference between filing their nails and filing their taxes?
It’s gotta be an act, right?
@ Fruitloopsie
Well, I’m more of a donkey sort of guy; but here’s my friend’s new kitteh in a bathtub:
http://s1122.photobucket.com/user/Alan_Robertshaw/media/11731961_10206049213562370_1769882583293361123_o_zpsgjcjupjp.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
So…you ARE Canadian, since he was visiting Canada.
Didn’t you hear, isidore? If the government doesn’t define what and how you can say things, then you can end careers (and maybe even lives!) by saying nasty things. Since no workplace anywhere has ever had to deal with rumors, innuendo and online petitions, they’re very powerful tools.
I mean, up until murder was outlawed in 2004, it was everywhere. Now that no one kills with intent anymore, I think it’s safe to say we could expect similar good things with a total clampdown on speech freedoms.
Heh, “shriekfuck.” Shrill shrieking harpies of fucking dooooom!
Hello everyone. Hello poor put upon troll with absolutely no recourse for grievances over lost income due to being a shitty human being that businesses don’t want to associate with. Boy, that sounds rough. And it’s all thanks to shrill shrieking harpies. Isn’t it, chucklefuck?
I digress. Cute kitty in the tub, Alan Robertshaw!
Alan
Aww adorable kitty and thanks! The gods are pleased.
I’m all for telling the troll to go home and think about his life, but can we please cut the socially acceptable racism?
“Hahaha your people had too little military power to escape annexation now your national identity is invalid, sucker!”
When you say that, you’re also saying it to those of us who aren’t daft trolls.
Troll tells us to Google him. I Google him. Troll immediately drops all pretense and has a ragefit. I laugh.
If by “Behave” you mean “Not post racist screeds on Twitter, not sexually assault women, not commit robbery, etc” – and you do, because let’s face it, you’re sure as hell not talking about female teachers being fired for having consensual sex with their boyfriends – then abso-fucking-lutely. Not many people want to work beside rapey racist burglars.
Huh. So now either troll is making no sense again (it’s okay to be bad at a language, but you probably shouldn’t try to make a point in one where it’s going to come out incomprehensibly) or saying that the government should stop either us from speaking freely or stop people from saying someone is a rapist if they haven’t been convicted. With convictions of rapists at around 3%, that’s called “stopping rape victims from speaking out.”
Wow. This one’s *creepy.* And also apparently thinks that we should go enroll in another country’s military.
http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-09/10/20/enhanced/webdr05/anigif_enhanced-7787-1410394648-2.gif
http://persephonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/malificent-misandry.gif
http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/1731/32171731/pics/2850699548_1.gif
LOL good answer wwth
Do not call me an Angeleno. I am a Hollywoodian.*
*not actually
None to speak of. But at this point you’re making the point of those who use terms like “social justice warrior” for them: you’re arrogant, sanctimonious, belligerent, smug, and losing all the while.
Yes, losing. Not to a loose cabal like GamerGate which is too stupid to even come up with a cogent agenda. But to people who’d gladly have Trump as president, and want him more the worse he gets. (Were we not sharing a land border with your country, I’d gladly wish you Trump in the White House.) To exactly the kind of MRA people you spend time deriding. Yeah, enact more rules, and more rules, and more rules, to weed out the unworthies; find more ways to blame people for using terms like “loonie” under the dubious claim that it’s ableist; accuse people of being MRAs or trolls, bannable offenses around here, while being elastic about the application of the terms to the point where they are interpreted as “someone who disagrees with me”.
Meanwhile, mock me about how I don’t regard myself as Canadian but as Québécois, while I can’t deny the fact that Canada is the country where I currently live, but would rather be separate from. Never mind that Roosh began his Canadian visit in Montreal, which would be in an independent Quebec.
And frankly, if you deem my preferred national identity invalid because of the physical reality of the situation, with sentences like: “Do not call me an American. I am a Californian.” — damned hilarious, isn’t it? — then how about….
Then how about….
“Do not call me a man. I am a woman”?
Yeah, I know what that means to just say that here, insta-ban. But I perfectly realize that this is the track on which you’ve already sent me, and frankly I’ve been banned from better places. So yeah, don’t let this go to your head. But now I’ve got you in a corner and I’ll press on.
You know, maybe it’s really still Bruce and not Caitlyn; Bradley and not Chelsea? Still a man, always was a man, will always be a man, regardless of what he may think. I’m not saying that for the purpose of being contrarian; this is what I think. I’ll respect them as human beings, even though I think they are mistaken on their gender identity. That’s not, and should not be construed as, transphobia. Not that you’d care about my view on the subject, of course.
You don’t give a shit about that whole Privilege business when it doesn’t affect you personally or doesn’t make you feel guilty? Fine. Then why should I? Why should I sacrifice an advantage I don’t really have on the orders of people who want to bully and shame me for the benefit of people who have become deft at the art of exploiting their lack of advantages, when they don’t give a shit about other disadvantages personally affecting me?
You tell me why I should, shriekfucks. You tell me why.
Oh, never mind the part that if people “assault women, commit robbery, etc”, they won’t be at liberty to pursue regular employment anyway. And ultimately, yes, I’m talking about “female teachers fired for consensual sex”. Or other legal activities. Like that Mozilla CEO who was fired for making a political contribution to a proposition against gay marriage. You may find that abhorrent, but since it’s legally on the ballot, who the fuck is to say what constitutes or does not constitute acceptable political contributions? There, fire all the Democrats.
If you’re that fond of corporate intrusion into our daily lives, then you’re a blithering idiot.
Oh, because now it’s the *government* getting in on the act of Rape Culture? Maybe we should, oh, abolish those unnecessary parts of the legal system, then? First, then, libel law. Surely everyone ought to have the right to call everyone else a rapist without any danger of legal reprisals for lack of evidence? (Were I the alleged rapist in your actual case, I might consider suing.) Then maybe the presumption of innocence? That, too, gets in the way — tsk, tsk, three percent, too low. If that doesn’t increase the conviction rate, then maybe quotas? Stop distorting what I say.
N’importe quoi.
*feeling left out*
I live in a fucking forest. I’m a goddamn wood elf.
And a unicorn could walk down the street pooping rainbows. But it’s not likely.
http://i.imgur.com/OI9hDHg.jpg
Man tears is starting to get boring.
The only thing that made is teal deer worth reading is this hilarious neg
Are any of those better places DIRECTLY ON THE BEACH!?
Okay so the troll is also transphobic I guess.
Jesus Christ, Vet. I’ll spot you that the Quebecois jabs weren’t fair, but you’ve got to be aware of how angry you are.
I mean, you’re preaching to ideological opposites on the Internet, but you’re completely unable to handle even slight flack. You’re launching into hundreds-of-words-long diatribes because someone slighted you. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously if your go-to is to throw everything but the sink into every response?
Unless you’re just addicted to the feeling of rage, what’s even the point? All you’ve proven so far is that you can climb a cross, and that you’re upset that it gave you splinters.
Insta-Ban?
That’s the product that promises “24-hour odor and wetness protection,” right? And now it comes in “Insta”?
Cool.
And might I add, C’est la vie.
Personally, I take no issue whatsoever to someone from Quebec not wishing to identify as a Canadian. I do take issue with him mocking people who oppose misogyny and transphobia, mocking people who are the targets of these bigotries and then expecting us to sympathize with him. It’s no different than when Dean Esmay is fine with misogyny and expects us to feel bad that he’s broke. You don’t get to take oppression seriously only when it effects you.
Anyway, as to the ridiculous ass notion that anytime a woman makes an allegation of rape, harassment or abuse…
http://jezebel.com/subway-was-alerted-about-jared-fogle-back-in-2008-1727107754
Nope!
Even raping children isn’t enough to ruin men’s lives. Not for many years anyway. See also: Sandusky.
That Fogle thing just gets worse and worse.
Had you read the comments policy I very politely linked you to, you would know why we don’t like people calling MRAs, PUAs, MGTOWs, Meninists, and their ilk “loonies”.
There’s always an urge to throw bad behavior under the bus as “mentally ill behavior”, and that’s so people can safely “other” the people with the bad behavior and not associate with them.
“I’m not like that crazy person who thinks rape should be legal, I’m perfectly sane because I know rape is bad!”
Society has successfully coded “mentally ill” as “terrible, bad person”, thus shouldering anyone who has a mental illness who can manage to be a good person with a fuckton of stigma for no other reason than people don’t understand our day-to-day struggles with our illnesses.
Sure, some of the people we fight against are mentally ill, there’s no doubt about that. But when you call someone like Roosh, who has no history of mental illness or a professional diagnoses a “loonie”, you’re conflating his shitty behavior with my mental illness and the mental illness of several other people who manage to be perfectly decent people, and that’s actually really shitty of you.
Mental illness isn’t automagically the cause of shitty behavior.
My apologies. I wasn’t aware what I was doing was racism, but now that I do know it won’t happen again.
@wwth
Why would Qubecians not want to be called Canadian?
Wait. Troll somehow decides that I’m against the presumption of innocence (I said rapes, not cases) and somehow *I’m* twisting *his* words?
I’m not even going to touch that totally-not-transphobia-guiyz with an eleven-foot pole, an extending ruler, and a grappling hook combined into an unholy abomination.
Non, n’est pas bêtises. (Je regrette, je ne parle pas bien français. Pardonnez mon grammaire mal.)
Actually, his particular brand of mansplainy sliminess is *utterly* creepy, so maybe it’s just time to PROVE HIM RIGHT and UNJUSTLY BAN HIM, OH HORRORS. Let’s do the number game.
1