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So yesterday I posted about the repulsive, rapey banners that some frat guys hung from the balcony of their frat at Old Dominion University in Virginia. Banners that were so obviously problematic that the school administration immediately suspended the frat to investigate.
Here. as a reminder, are the banners in question:
I also quoted Amanda Marcotte, who noted that, when faced with clear evidence of rape culture like these banners, rape apologists like to
suddenly pretend they are aliens from another planet and only learned human language last week and therefore are incapable of picking up on humor, implication, non-verbal communication and nuanced language. They pretend to ascribe to a form of communication so literal that even the slightest bit of metaphor or implication, to hear them talk, sends them spinning into a state of confusion.
After I put up my post yesterday, several rape culture deniers wandered into my Twitter mentions, as if to prove Marcotte’s point, posting pictures of banners put up by sorority women at the school and demanding to know why I wasn’t attacking these women for their alleged promotion of rape culture as well.
@DavidFutrelle HOW HORRIBL- … wait, what happens if i look to the right? ohhh i see … nice try :^) pic.twitter.com/ViClZV0RBu
— Dragunov (@NkDragunov) August 25, 2015
https://twitter.com/WoolyBumblebee/status/636343927914786817
I suspect most of you are as nonplussed by this as I was. Because these banners don’t actually promote rape culture. And not because the people holding them up are women, not men.
The frat’s banners have a creepy, predatory edge to them. They are addressed not to the incoming freshmen women, but to the fathers of these women. They strongly suggest that any woman who walks through their doors — or is “dropped off” by dad — is going to be shown a “rowdy … good time” whether she’s “ready” for it or not.
They don’t explicitly use the word “rape” but given how completely they erase the agency of the young women in question they might as well just do that.
The rape threat is implicit, not explicit, but it is clear enough that most people seeing these banners can understand in an instant what they “really mean” and what the problem is.
The banners held up by the sorority women are a different thing entirely. They don’t put forth the message: “we are going to do things to you (whether you like it or not).” They are playful, not threatening, and tell prospective dates “we like sex, and if you get with us you might even get to do ‘butt stuff.'”
The first banner only asks that men pull out before they come; no one wants any babies. The second tells men they are “welcome” to use the back door, nudge nudge. Instead of saying “we will do things to you,” they say “you can do things to us.” Presumably in the context of consensual sex.
Just as rape =/= sex, talking about sex =/= talking about rape.
Is it creepy that when new freshmen men arrive on the campus they’re greeted with giant banners aimed at them and laden with sexual innuendo? Maybe, but it’s nowhere near as creepy as banners greeting freshman women (and their mothers) with not-very-subtle threats of rape.
I tried to get this point across to one of my Twitter interlocutors, the antifeminist Youtube gadfly WoolyBumblebee; it didn’t take. Some excerpts of the ensuing “discussion.”
Rape threats, even implicit ones, are rape culture. Mentions of sex aren’t. You’d think this wouldn’t be hard to understand.
Does WoolyBumblebee really not understand that if someone says “you can put it in my butt” they are not threatening to rape you?
It might not be the appropriate thing to bring up at, say, a dinner party. And if you say it repeatedly to someone not interested in sex with you, it would be sexual harassment.
But it wouldn’t be a rape threat.
WoolyBumblebee more or less conceded this point shortly afterwards. And returned to claiming (or pretending) she didn’t see the threat in the banners posted by the frat guys.
Around and around we go!
Or we would have if I hadn’t gotten off the internet to watch an episode of Mr. Robot.
The question I am left with, as I generally am in the wake of “discussions” with those who seem to be incapable of understanding the basics of human language, is this: Are these people really this literal-minded and obtuse, or are they just pretending?
If the former, how exactly do they manage to even work a computer? Did they make bird noises at their laptop or into their phone for weeks on end before someone explained that’s not how Twitter works? Do they understand the difference between filing their nails and filing their taxes?
It’s gotta be an act, right?
Very weak and lame futrelle. If you believe rape culture exists in the USA you are one sick little puppy projecting your fantasies onto others , and the same goes for anyone else who does too.
@Gerry
Are you sure that we lose all credibility? Not just, say, 50 percent? Maybe 75 percent? All credibility, you say? Hmm, you did say you were serious. Well, in that case, I suppose we’d better do what you say and get over it. I know you wouldn’t just pull this stuff out of thin air. You’ve checked the research. You’ve checked with your friends. We’d better back down on this one–or no one will ever believe anything we ever say, ever again. Thanks for the tip!
Why do people insulting David talk in this weird, overly-written, somewhat old-fashioned manner?
Back in the 50s they had panty raids, which were disturbing on several levels. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panty_raid
They think that it makes them sound intelligent and sophisticated.
re: “Hurr Durr, there’s no rape culture in the US, n00bs!”: When people who talk about rape culture, they’re not saying that all men are waiting and plotting to “RAPE ALL TEH WIMMIN!” but rather addressing the fact the fact that it’s generally a-ok to remove agency from women when talking about the sexuality / sex.
“Drop your daughters off here!” = Rapey Bullshit
“Freshmen girls: We’re ready whenever you are!” = In bad taste (as are the signs the sororities are holding), but not Rapey Bullshit.
I really don’t see what’s so difficult about the distinction.
@anon re: Your bubble: I appreciate your addressing that you had/have one and had/have to work to see past it.
We all have them.
It’s constant, not always successful work to get around their influence.
Lots of psychoanalyzing of our opposition going on in the responses here. You’re not therapists, and MRAs denying rape culture aren’t your patients. For all the talk of removing stigma of mental illness I see from regular commenters here, it seems like we’re perfectly comfortable acting like mental health professionals.
@rv
Oh no, a random commenter on the internet said so without backing up their reasoning in any way, so it must be true!
Why is it that gullible people (who no doubt subscribe to Ayn Rand’s teachings) think other people are equally gullible? Newsflash: Someone simply stating “either you agree with me and are smart or you’re [insert bad thing here]” without backing up that assertion doesn’t automatically make them right. And you’re not smart because you agree with them in order to not seem stupid, you’re just extremely easy to fool into believing that the emperor has clothes.
And you clearly don’t understand what rape culture actually means. Big shock.
That said, it’s amusing that MRAs and other assorted misogynists jump in to defend rape culture without reading the article, which addresses them directly. It’s like they’re super invested in not challenging the status quo or something.
delphi_ote
Where exactly? Maybe I missed it. I see a lot of speculation about and questioning of their motives, but not diagnosing mental illnesses.
A fair point, although:
A) Nobody was handing out diagnoses. A lot of people were discussing what they thought might be the motive and mindset of a rape apologist, but nobody said the mindset was based on mental illness.
B) The OP asked the question “Are these people really this literal-minded and obtuse, or are they just pretending?” That’s a call for discussion, which is what everyone was doing. And again, there was no “mental health professionals” giving their opinion, it’s normal people speculating on this question. I thought the responses were rather insightful and compassionate, even when talking about such terrible shitheads. Some of the commenters were men, who can give first-hand testimonies about the toxic culture behind the closed doors of fraternities.
C) Nobody was talking about MRAs specifically. Everyone, including the OP, was talking about rape apologists in general. BTW, I, personally, wouldn’t refer to a fading fringe group like the MRM as “our opposition.” That’s giving those laughable fuckheads way too much credit.
Whoops, ninja’d by Tessa.
And because of the profile image, now I’m imagining having been ninja’d by a green elephant. Drat.
If it helps, green elephants are the sneakiest of all elephants. (Seriously, have you ever seen one?)
This is how I tried to think the issue through:
There are two slightly different meanings to ‘being threatened’.
In the first, I say I’ll steal your wallet, to your face. You feel threatened, and I am a threatener.
In the second, you’re walking through a badly-lit park at night, and worry about someone stealing your wallet. You feel threatened, even in the absence of a threatener.
In the first, I say “you want to to watch where you walk,” with menace. You feel threatened, and I am a threatener.
In the second, you’re uncomfortable walking through that badly-lit park, even if there’s no particular thing you’re worried about – you still feel threatened by the fact that something bad might happen to you.
So what if I went to a park and took down all of the lighting, turning it into a gloomy and threatening place? It would create the second scenario. I might not be a direct threatener, but I have, through my actions, created a feeling of threat in someone else. The fact that I’m not directly threatening anyone does not absolve me of blame for making someone feel threatened. The fact that situations like the gloomy park can crop up without anyone making them that way doesn’t absolve me of blame either – I chose to create that unpleasant situation for someone else, I take the blame for it.
So it is with rape culture – the absence of a specific threat in the banners doesn’t mean they are not threatening. As long as they cause people to feel threatened (and they certainly will in a culture so thick with sexual violence problems as ours is), a moral wrong has been committed. Fear of sexual violence might be prevalent, but only a sociopath would argue that provoking that fear for shits and giggles is fine. Furthering that air of menace is, in and of itself, a moral wrong.
Anyone who thinks that their being able to make an off-colour joke is worth perpetuating fear in others lacks empathy, and should not be coddled by pretending that their opinions on the matter are anything other than worthless.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his sense of manhood depends on him not understanding it.”
(you can also substitute “ability to get laid”, since many of these apologists and boys-will-be-boys defenders are dimly aware their notch counts will suffer if they have to concern themselves with obtaining enthusiastic consent)
Well, it’s more than just an off-colour joke. As a lot of other people have said, it’s treating Freshman girls as the property of men, as completely interchangeable objects. It’s explicitly dehumanising, as though Freshman girls aren’t individuals and deserving of the respect that belongs to a fellow human being. And as soon as you strip a person of their humanity, it becomes much easier to hurt them, which is why all propaganda ever portrays the people it opposes as monstrous or less than human. So yeah, it’s not just a joke, it’s a big ol’ sign telling the Freshman girls ‘We don’t perceive you as individuals or equals’ which is pretty darn threatening all on its own.
It’s telling how the people who try to argue with you on Twitter are too afraid to even look at your posts to find out what your arguments actually are. They can’t venture out of their misogynist echo chambers for even one second, so they make themselves a straw argument and get super mad about it. Cowards.
Wait, is Woolybumblebee that moron with the Misandric Pants video? lol I thought she got kicked out of the Cool Girl clubhouse.
Tessa:
I have, and it was pretty awesome. If you have a chance to see Katharina Fritsch’s sculpture Elefant, a full-size elephant in green polyester, do so, because it’s great.
(Apologies for the frivolity in a serious thread)
The way I see it, it’s not exactly an act, nor are they being honest either. The closest description I could use is that they sincerely believe what they believe, but know enough to know that serious investigation would pose a serious challenge to their belief system, so they do their best to not investigate. People manage impressive feats of cleverness to be this obtuse.
So, can any of the apologists explain why the frat was shut down and the sorority wasn’t?
@Bacon
The ‘off-colour joke’ section was meant to be a separate thought, not a summation. Reading back, I didn’t make that clear.
I guess I wanted to link the two to make the point that even in the absence of a darker subtext, it’s not acceptable. So the smokescreens that some people throw up around their ‘edgy’ quips – “it’s just a joke” or “It’s satire” – don’t work even if you take them at face value.
@ berdache
I’ll wager anything you want that they say it’s because of double standards and how men are persecuted when they make a ‘joke’ but women get away with literal rape threats.
sevenofmine
QFT! Eleventy!!
Eliane-
Yeah, it’s a standard abuse tactic. Gaslight your way out of an accusation, no matter how accurate by playing ignorant as fuck and then flip it on the accuser and make it about them. Nuh uh, that’s not rape culture, you’re rape culture is just the kindergarten flavor of that.
And to answer the OT, they’re rapists and people who want the social protection of rapists because they want to avoid becoming the targets of said rapists and have been told all their lives that their lives are to be in service to said rapists.
So, yeah, of course they obfuscate and claim ignorance. Because they know exactly what the frat boys were doing and what they or someone close to them has done in the past and that’s monstrous, so better to claim ignorance. As many have noted, none of these fucks have problems with other social cues in society or ignoring soft nos. None of them hear a “we’ll get back to you” in a job interview and then show up the next day to try and start work. They understand how the world works with regards to consent and ignoring it.
But the worst part is that they might not actually cognitively understand how consent applies to the malfunctioning sex toasters they view women (or “other” women if they are dedicated Women Against Women) because they are so used to rape culture being defended and protected by everyone in society. Or at least see it as anything different from sex.
Most of them come from sexual cultures where the very idea of having sex demeans and diminishes women and grew up in a society that often intimates that any form of sex is bad and corruptive. Additionally, many are stewing in beliefs where only men want sex and sex is a resource that women are selfishly and cruelly withholding from them and that is an act of violence against them because getting enough of the sex resource is how a man stays safe from being designated as honorary women themselves and thus under threat of the rape culture. Similarly that being open and honest and emotionally vulnerable and respectful of a woman is worse than even lacking sex.
Which pretty much leaves rape as their “only recourse” outside of rejecting this terrible edifice of toxic masculinity. Or sex that is degrading and dismissive of the other person’s humanity (so yeah, basically just circling back to rape again as they get mad when a woman turns out to be into consensual degradation in the bedroom). And as that is their form of “sex”, they genuinely don’t understand why feminists keep acting like sex is somehow different from rape.
And by doing so, reveal exactly how much of a rapist asshole they are by complaining about consent as if it was a secret foreign term or by equating rapist actions to consensual sex or sexuality in general. Because in their head, what they view rape as the sum total of all possible sex and all sex is an equal level of bad because it’s “corrupting” and “immoral”. And in fact, the sexuality of women is worse, because being only the holders of the sex rather than wanting it for themselves, that playfulness is a crude taunt of the fact that no, not every man who mistakes sexual openess and playfulness for literally being open to all comers is welcome to get the sex resource from them. Which fuels their false justification for wanting revenge and why none of these sex-obsessed fucks seem to care when their actions are directly responsible for making it harder to be a sexually active and open woman in society.
This is also why sex-obsessed MRAs also have long ranting whines about sexually open women, public performers who are explicitly sexual, and queer groups and other groups that often get defined by sexuality. And why they are front and center anytime someone needs backup dancers in a public slut-shame or attack on any woman who may have in fact had sex in her life or even look like they presume someone who would would look like.
In short, every time one of these assholes starts pontificating in practiced ignorance on consent, a giant alarm starts ringing in my head that that person really needs to be in jail for something very specific they’ve done in their past.
@sevenofmine
I’d argue that the wording of the sorority banners was consensual (and therefore, on the surface not contributory to rape culture), but the act of displaying of them is coercive (and therefore, feeds rape culture in fact). To see what I mean, imagine a young woman arriving at the sorority house to move in while those banners were being created. What is she going to say? “Um. No. I’m not comfortable with extending that invitation”? It sets up these young women for prude shaming (or to be the shamers), and normalises subjugating one’s own autonomy and will with respect to sex. Just the type of behaviour that makes it easy for the predators to succeed.