The We Hunted the Mammoth Pledge Drive is on! Please consider donating through the PayPal button below. Thanks!
So yesterday I posted about the repulsive, rapey banners that some frat guys hung from the balcony of their frat at Old Dominion University in Virginia. Banners that were so obviously problematic that the school administration immediately suspended the frat to investigate.
Here. as a reminder, are the banners in question:
I also quoted Amanda Marcotte, who noted that, when faced with clear evidence of rape culture like these banners, rape apologists like to
suddenly pretend they are aliens from another planet and only learned human language last week and therefore are incapable of picking up on humor, implication, non-verbal communication and nuanced language. They pretend to ascribe to a form of communication so literal that even the slightest bit of metaphor or implication, to hear them talk, sends them spinning into a state of confusion.
After I put up my post yesterday, several rape culture deniers wandered into my Twitter mentions, as if to prove Marcotte’s point, posting pictures of banners put up by sorority women at the school and demanding to know why I wasn’t attacking these women for their alleged promotion of rape culture as well.
@DavidFutrelle HOW HORRIBL- … wait, what happens if i look to the right? ohhh i see … nice try :^) pic.twitter.com/ViClZV0RBu
— Dragunov (@NkDragunov) August 25, 2015
https://twitter.com/WoolyBumblebee/status/636343927914786817
I suspect most of you are as nonplussed by this as I was. Because these banners don’t actually promote rape culture. And not because the people holding them up are women, not men.
The frat’s banners have a creepy, predatory edge to them. They are addressed not to the incoming freshmen women, but to the fathers of these women. They strongly suggest that any woman who walks through their doors — or is “dropped off” by dad — is going to be shown a “rowdy … good time” whether she’s “ready” for it or not.
They don’t explicitly use the word “rape” but given how completely they erase the agency of the young women in question they might as well just do that.
The rape threat is implicit, not explicit, but it is clear enough that most people seeing these banners can understand in an instant what they “really mean” and what the problem is.
The banners held up by the sorority women are a different thing entirely. They don’t put forth the message: “we are going to do things to you (whether you like it or not).” They are playful, not threatening, and tell prospective dates “we like sex, and if you get with us you might even get to do ‘butt stuff.'”
The first banner only asks that men pull out before they come; no one wants any babies. The second tells men they are “welcome” to use the back door, nudge nudge. Instead of saying “we will do things to you,” they say “you can do things to us.” Presumably in the context of consensual sex.
Just as rape =/= sex, talking about sex =/= talking about rape.
Is it creepy that when new freshmen men arrive on the campus they’re greeted with giant banners aimed at them and laden with sexual innuendo? Maybe, but it’s nowhere near as creepy as banners greeting freshman women (and their mothers) with not-very-subtle threats of rape.
I tried to get this point across to one of my Twitter interlocutors, the antifeminist Youtube gadfly WoolyBumblebee; it didn’t take. Some excerpts of the ensuing “discussion.”
Rape threats, even implicit ones, are rape culture. Mentions of sex aren’t. You’d think this wouldn’t be hard to understand.
Does WoolyBumblebee really not understand that if someone says “you can put it in my butt” they are not threatening to rape you?
It might not be the appropriate thing to bring up at, say, a dinner party. And if you say it repeatedly to someone not interested in sex with you, it would be sexual harassment.
But it wouldn’t be a rape threat.
WoolyBumblebee more or less conceded this point shortly afterwards. And returned to claiming (or pretending) she didn’t see the threat in the banners posted by the frat guys.
Around and around we go!
Or we would have if I hadn’t gotten off the internet to watch an episode of Mr. Robot.
The question I am left with, as I generally am in the wake of “discussions” with those who seem to be incapable of understanding the basics of human language, is this: Are these people really this literal-minded and obtuse, or are they just pretending?
If the former, how exactly do they manage to even work a computer? Did they make bird noises at their laptop or into their phone for weeks on end before someone explained that’s not how Twitter works? Do they understand the difference between filing their nails and filing their taxes?
It’s gotta be an act, right?
For me, for a very long time, rape culture was invisible. The fact that women found certain things unsafe or unfunny was to my eyes just proof of them being frightened or humourless, rather than those things being symbols of a wider narrative in our culture. Weirdly, one of the things that helped me understand it best was a presentation by Slavoj Zizek of all people; he wasn’t talking about rape culture but about advertising, and how omnipresent narratives can exist while being overtly invisible, and about how fiercely we fight to avoid realising that we’re influenced by them.
I was an asshole back then.
I like the metaphor of infrared because when I talk about rape culture it’s usually to STEM people, who dislike the suggestion that their mindset is ill-adjusted to any problem but will generally be quick to concede to an argument based around the inavailability of data. We all understand the concept of infrared signal being present but invisible (well, all STEM people anyway) and pitching it like that allows me to avoid people feeling that I’m implying that they’re stupid.
Similarly, there’s probably a good way to pitch it to various other mindsets.
But… We do. That’s why most (all?) non-gendered and male-only DV shelters are run by feminists, for example. You are telling us to get dressed for dinner while we’re waiting for you in the car.
I guess what I meant by “not invisible” was “not permanently invisible”… Once you see it, you can actually see it, but you can live life for the longest time without ever noticing it despite looking straight at it. That’s been closer to my experience. The infrared metaphor makes it seem like it’s something well and truly hidden, and you need the right tools to be able to notice it at all even if you know it’s there.
I think everyone’s had the experience of seeing something or walking by something every day, but never noticing some pretty obvious detail until they eventually took a closer look, or were told it was there by someone else.
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Not here in the UK they’re not. Here in the UK the most prominent women’s DV charities are busy denying, trivializing and even justifying the experiences of male victims. But, as I said to Alan, that’s a subject for another thread. Feel free to follow the links in my post and we can pick up this conversation there. This thread is about Rape Culture and that is where I would like to focus my conversation.
The problem with this argument isn’t just what SFHC said, that we already do this and think this. The other problem is that in every other social justice movement, women have been asked to take a backseat. Part of patriarchy is the expectation that women should place men’s needs above their own. To ask feminists to be sure and include men is deeply offensive and demonstrates that rather than fighting patriarchy, you want to uphold it. You’re saying that even a movement for women shouldn’t be about women.
If feminists feel like directing their energies towards helping men, fine. But don’t put the expectation on us to do that when in every other aspect of life women are asked to cater to men’s needs. Despite the fact that some men and boys can be collaterally damage by patriarchy, patriarchy is still a system that ultimately privileges those of the male gender and gives them unearned power. It’s important to not forget that.
I would have no problem with male feminist allies forming their own movement fighting against toxic masculinity and the way it can hurt men and boys. The problem with the MRM isn’t that they’re a men’s movement. The problem is that they’re anti-feminist and misogynistic and don’t ultimately do anything to help men and boys who are harmed by toxic masculinity.
Why on earth is it so important to you to remove context? Nothing men say about women is ever free of context in our culture. It seems like you’re trying really hard to find a way to make these not rape culture. Why?
@Kirby:
I think it might just be a difference in experience, then. That is, not experience of rape culture but of IR. My first instinct when someone tells me that something is visible in IR is not to regard it as being invisible but to go and get an IR detector and use that.
@EJ:
Yeah, I’ll admit I haven’t done much work with IR so my first instinct is to treat anything not visible to the naked eye as “invisible”. I did spend a lot of my childhood fascinated with optical illusions, magic-eye pictures, and other stuff like that, so a “present and visible but unnoticed” thing makes more sense to me as a metaphor.
I’m kind of surprised I had such a strong reaction, though. I suddenly realized that I really dislike the idea that a cultural thing like rape culture is truly “invisible” in the sense of “I can’t see it myself, and I won’t be able to see it, but I can be assured it’s there” sort of way. Almost feels like an excuse to approach the subject cautiously and half-justify your initial instincts to say it doesn’t exist.
Because of course you would think something doesn’t exist, and you’d be justified initially in thinking so, if that something were truly invisible to you. You’d even be justified in being skeptical on the matter until somebody’s presented you with a whole bunch of evidence that you could never hope to even notice on your own, let alone collect.
But rape culture really isn’t invisible in that sense; it’s not that hard to see it once you know what it is. Apparently I feel like the conversation calling things like rape culture “invisible” serves in part to give permission to dudes to say that it’s really really hard figuring out how not to play into it.
By way of example, looking back on my high-school dorm, I can remember noticing a bunch of crap my dorm-mates would do that would be considered part of rape culture (though thankfully I didn’t see people actually talking about raping someone). At the time it made me uncomfortable, I just didn’t know how to contextualize it or describe it. But it was definitely visible.
@Kirby:
I completely agree with your position here, and can see why you reacted so strongly. The truth is that comparing rape culture to infrared is, as you point out, inaccurate because it justifies disbelief and a cautious approach. It offers an escape hatch and allows people to not think of themselves as bad people for denying its existence.
This is deliberate: when trying to convert people, it’s important to allow them to change sides as easily as possible and with as much good grace. The escape hatch has to exist, otherwise people will feel under threat and won’t respond at all. It’s also useful if the escape hatch leads in a direction you want the people to go in; in this case it leads into telling people to go and listen to women relate their lived experiences, and helps set people up to understand mansplaining.
Crucially, it tells a lie: that it isn’t their fault. This is a very useful lie because it creates a sense of curiosity rather than threatening guilt, but as I type this I realise that it’s also unethical of me to lie for tactical reasons. It is their fault, very much so, and mine too.
Comparing rape culture to IR does excuse bad behaviour, as you point out; do you find that you have more success talking to people when using the magic-eye-puzzle metaphor?
@Kirbywarp
I hope that you’re still following this thread.
I have debated this before, but nobody has made the argument as you have done.
My understanding of a “rape culture” was a culture in which people thought rape was, or could under certain circumstances, be acceptable. For instance, I was astonished to read a poll reported by the BBC in which just over 20 pc of men and just under 20 pc of women thought that a woman could be at least partially responsible for being raped (she went back to his room, she led him on, etc). There are enough people holding this view for it to be reasonably described as a “culture”, however, because it’s a minority view (albeit a substantial minority), it would be wrong to say that the UK has a “rape culture” overall. There are always sub-cultures for most things, but overall our society is very much “anti-rape”.
If I understand you correctly, what you’re saying is that a rape culture is a culture in which main stream society (not just sub-sets) permits behaviour and attitudes that put women at more risk of being raped. This would include, for instance, objectifying women where they are not respected as people but are seen as either sex objects or as nothing at all. I have understood this as a problem for women since way back, just not understood it as “rape culture”.
I’d be grateful of you’d let me know if I have now understood you correctly, but otherwise, I thank you for taking the time to share this insight with me.
@EJ:
This is the first time I’ve ever thought of the magic-eye thing. Well, I’d say the metaphor I’d rather go with is those things that those details that you can walk by every day and not notice, but this is still the first time I’ve thought of it. There’s probably a more pithy way of phrasing it as well.
I’m not really coming from a position of convincing in this discussion, I’m more coming from the implication of the metaphor. Hrm…
I recently have been thinking about habits, and trying to get myself to follow better ones. For the longest time, I’ve understood that habits are easy to form and hard to break. However, I got to thinking that maybe I’d attached too much significance to that idea, to the point where I felt a bit hopeless in trying to actually change my current habits.
And these are just sleeping habits; not exactly an addiction or something similar, but still a cycle my body has gotten into. Those types of thinks aren’t that hard to break, especially when you have the motivation to do so.
That was the mental breakthrough I needed, and it’s gotten me to follow a much nicer sleep routine for nearly a week now, in a way that I’m getting more and more confident that I can keep up.
So yeah, I guess I’m sensitive to certain metaphors or explanations that, while they might provide a good entry point, might also work against someone trying to change. I’ve also got a voice in my head saying “enough bullshit, this stuff isn’t as hard as you make it out to be” (in the most encouraging way possible).
You know, lots of woman feminists have actually written about and defined what rape culture is. Rather than come in here, try and mansplain what is and isn’t rape culture and then only ask another man what he thinks rape culture is, you could try actually reading some of it.
Not that I expect you to respond as you’ve largely ignored what the women in this thread are saying to you and have chosen to only engage with the men.
@Kirby:
That’s a really good, positive point. I like that. You’re a very admirable person for implementing that.
@weirwoodtreehugger:
I know, right?
@darrensball:
Both aspects are part of rape culture. The extreme aspects are going to be less pervasive, but they are still supported by the less extreme but more pervasive beliefs. Devaluing consent, objectification, and a hopelessly narrow definition of “rape rape” (to quote Oprah Winfrey), all feed back on each other and promote more extreme beliefs (if only in a technical minority of the male population).
If you aren’t thinking about and prioritizing your partner’s consent, it isn’t surprising that you might be more likely to view actions that devalue that consent (like getting a woman drunk in order to make them more open to (or unable to) saying ‘no’, or pushing past an initial ‘no’ in the hopes of getting to a ‘yes’), as perfectly fine. As long as the survey question doesn’t use the word ‘rape.’
Maybe you should redo some google research and read the myriad of feminist women who talk about rape culture, what its effects are, and what perpetuates it. Then maybe you’ll understand the context of the banners in the OP better.
Yeah, I also noticed that Ball completely ignored us when a dozen women said it and finally listened when a man said it. I mean, I’m glad one of us may have gotten through to him (thanks to Kirby being awesome as always), but… For all his posturing, he’s not exactly exuding “Not a raging misogynist” there.
Also, he seems to be named after his own genitals, so.
@EJ and SFHC:
On different subjects; thanks. 🙂
weirwoodtreehugger.
Regarding your comment about the scope of feminism, as I have already explained to the originator of this digression: it’s off-topic. You can either follow the links and debate it with me there or not at all. Suffice it to say that I disagree with you on every single point you’ve made.
On your second point. I’ve engaged with kirby because the arguments put forward are sensible and constructive. They have done what a debating forum is for: change opinions. I can’t imagine that your approach would ever change anybody’s view on anything: in which case, what’s the point of debating with you and others like you.
“Mansplaining” seems to be a term that you use to describe a view put forward by any man who dares to share a view that is contrary to yours. I have no time for it.
Darrensball,
The topic is rape culture. I told you that perhaps you should have researched the topic before trying to correct us. That’s hardly a derail from the topic.
In what way are Kirbywrap’s points more sensible? They’re the same points the rest of us are making. But they’re coming from a man, so I guess they hold more weight, huh?
Also, what’s with the attempt to get people to click over to your blog? I’m not giving you more traffic. You also seem to mistakenly believe this is a debate forum. It’s not, it’s a blog for mocking misogyny.
Didn’t we have some other troll who kept trying to get us to go to his blog?
[Emphasis mine]
As someone wrote somewhere on this very thread:
SFHC,
I had no idea of the gender of Kirby.
In any event, I have debated this point with many feminists in the past (male and female), and it’s not convinced me until now. As far as I’m concerned: that’s outcome has been a good one. It’s a shame that he (now I know, he) is still in a confrontational mode, but so be it.
WWTH, you’re thinking of Mike Buchanan, “Men’s Rights Divorce Expert Extraordinaire,” I think.
He was also very, very certain we needed to visit his blog.
@darrensball:
Nnnnnope. And this is pretty rich considering you admitted potentially not knowing what the definition of “rape culture” was in your previous comment to me. You admit lack of knowledge, and yet somehow it is insulting for a woman to say that you were trying to explain what rape culture was to women who know exactly what it is? You can talk about ‘women’ in the abstract in your comments to me and yet you don’t want to talk directly to the instantiation of that abstract, the women in this comment section?
That’s mansplaining, yo, in a nutshell. Will you go on to say you never really considered that that’s what “mansplaining” really was?
If you think Kirby is in a “confrontational mode,” then methinks your understanding of “confrontation” is a bit off.
Near as I can tell, he’s being quite patient with you.
I’m not asking you to go to my blog. They weren’t posted on my blog and in no meaningful way do I operate a blog. The distraction was caused by another blogger who wanted to talk about whether or not I’m an anti-feminist and I have been trying to avoid derailing the discussion – that’s all. I don’t care if you follow the links. I really don’t.