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So yesterday I posted about the repulsive, rapey banners that some frat guys hung from the balcony of their frat at Old Dominion University in Virginia. Banners that were so obviously problematic that the school administration immediately suspended the frat to investigate.
Here. as a reminder, are the banners in question:
I also quoted Amanda Marcotte, who noted that, when faced with clear evidence of rape culture like these banners, rape apologists like to
suddenly pretend they are aliens from another planet and only learned human language last week and therefore are incapable of picking up on humor, implication, non-verbal communication and nuanced language. They pretend to ascribe to a form of communication so literal that even the slightest bit of metaphor or implication, to hear them talk, sends them spinning into a state of confusion.
After I put up my post yesterday, several rape culture deniers wandered into my Twitter mentions, as if to prove Marcotte’s point, posting pictures of banners put up by sorority women at the school and demanding to know why I wasn’t attacking these women for their alleged promotion of rape culture as well.
@DavidFutrelle HOW HORRIBL- … wait, what happens if i look to the right? ohhh i see … nice try :^) pic.twitter.com/ViClZV0RBu
— Dragunov (@NkDragunov) August 25, 2015
https://twitter.com/WoolyBumblebee/status/636343927914786817
I suspect most of you are as nonplussed by this as I was. Because these banners don’t actually promote rape culture. And not because the people holding them up are women, not men.
The frat’s banners have a creepy, predatory edge to them. They are addressed not to the incoming freshmen women, but to the fathers of these women. They strongly suggest that any woman who walks through their doors — or is “dropped off” by dad — is going to be shown a “rowdy … good time” whether she’s “ready” for it or not.
They don’t explicitly use the word “rape” but given how completely they erase the agency of the young women in question they might as well just do that.
The rape threat is implicit, not explicit, but it is clear enough that most people seeing these banners can understand in an instant what they “really mean” and what the problem is.
The banners held up by the sorority women are a different thing entirely. They don’t put forth the message: “we are going to do things to you (whether you like it or not).” They are playful, not threatening, and tell prospective dates “we like sex, and if you get with us you might even get to do ‘butt stuff.'”
The first banner only asks that men pull out before they come; no one wants any babies. The second tells men they are “welcome” to use the back door, nudge nudge. Instead of saying “we will do things to you,” they say “you can do things to us.” Presumably in the context of consensual sex.
Just as rape =/= sex, talking about sex =/= talking about rape.
Is it creepy that when new freshmen men arrive on the campus they’re greeted with giant banners aimed at them and laden with sexual innuendo? Maybe, but it’s nowhere near as creepy as banners greeting freshman women (and their mothers) with not-very-subtle threats of rape.
I tried to get this point across to one of my Twitter interlocutors, the antifeminist Youtube gadfly WoolyBumblebee; it didn’t take. Some excerpts of the ensuing “discussion.”
Rape threats, even implicit ones, are rape culture. Mentions of sex aren’t. You’d think this wouldn’t be hard to understand.
Does WoolyBumblebee really not understand that if someone says “you can put it in my butt” they are not threatening to rape you?
It might not be the appropriate thing to bring up at, say, a dinner party. And if you say it repeatedly to someone not interested in sex with you, it would be sexual harassment.
But it wouldn’t be a rape threat.
WoolyBumblebee more or less conceded this point shortly afterwards. And returned to claiming (or pretending) she didn’t see the threat in the banners posted by the frat guys.
Around and around we go!
Or we would have if I hadn’t gotten off the internet to watch an episode of Mr. Robot.
The question I am left with, as I generally am in the wake of “discussions” with those who seem to be incapable of understanding the basics of human language, is this: Are these people really this literal-minded and obtuse, or are they just pretending?
If the former, how exactly do they manage to even work a computer? Did they make bird noises at their laptop or into their phone for weeks on end before someone explained that’s not how Twitter works? Do they understand the difference between filing their nails and filing their taxes?
It’s gotta be an act, right?
@Catalpa:
Not to mention that college for many people is the first place where they can really exercise their own judgement as an adult. Freshmen are seen as naive people that make naive decisions, and that’s even outside of frat culture.
There is nothing not predatory about this; it takes a willful blindness to insist that the “harmless” interpretation of shit like this is definitely the most reasonable one.
@ Darren
Here you go. Something for your site. A campaign especially to address male suicide rates.
Set up originally by the UK Government too notwithstanding the Establishment’s inherent bias against men
They seem to be doing something to address the issue you raise on your site; and look at those pesky women providing support.
https://www.thecalmzone.net/
This wasn’t the only frat to put up signs like that. Others have done it using the same sort of language. The others in the link say “She called you daddy for 18 yrs now its our turn,” “Thank you fathers for your freshmen daughters,” and “Thanks fathers, we’ll take it from here.” You can’t get more patriarchal than speaking only to the pater of the family to tell him that you’re his replacement.
Aw, ninja’d by Allen.
I was about to say re: suicide prevention and support groups in the UK, it may comfort darrensball to know that there aren’t any mainsream organizations providing support specifically to women – most groups or organisations aren’t gender specific. The few that are, however, such as the Calmzone, are specifically for men.
I really hate it when men tell women that we shouldn’t find the things that we feel threatening to be threatening. Especially since these same guys are always first in line to tell women who were raped that they should have known better than to trust the rapist and go somewhere with him. We’re the ones whose safety depends on sussing out red flags. We ought to know what’s rapey. Of all things that shouldn’t be mansplained, this is at the top of the list.
@ WWTH
Yeah, the best bit of advice that you can ever give in self defence training is “Trust Your Instincts”
That’s why I’m always recommending the Gavin De Becker book.
The corollary advice is “Act on your instincts” and “Don’t die of politeness”.
[All the above subject to usual provisos about no onus on women to protect themselves etc.]
I’m guessing darrensball would interpret that as the frat boys clearly implying that they intend to marry these young women.
You know, so the frat boys could call the women’s fathers “daddy.”
[/sarcasm]
I’m baffled by the commenters here who don’t see the difference between, say…
“LADIES: All booty calls answered by the next business day.” – implies consensual sexytimes as it’s directly speaking to the women involved, kinda cheeky
“LADIES: do you like to fuck? We do too! We’re open 24/7, come on in” – Bad taste, crass and stupid, but still implies consensual sexytimes, directly speaks to the women
“Hope you baby girl likes to have a good time…”
“Freshman girl dropoff”
“Drop off Mom too”
NOT speaking to the women involved, completely ignoring them in favour of speaking to the man/men in their lives, implies they couldn’t care less about what the women want nor do they see them as worthy of addressing… consensual sexytimes most definitely not implied. DOES NOT MEAN the frat guys are rapists, IS an example of rape culture.
The consensual sexytimes signs could still piss off fathers (if that is, in fact, the goal… which is creepy, bc my dad has never had anything to do with my sex life and why would he?) without being… well, fucking rapey and objectifying.
This is not difficult to grasp, commenters claiming not to grasp it.
Also to our Quebecois troll – other provinces also have to deal with the Feds overruling them and otherwise being assholes… it’s not just QC, though on some issues (like the ones you mentioned) QC is definitely ahead of the game. One of the (many, many) reasons I love QC. Too bad you’re a transphobic batard – it’s interesting to me that as someone who regularly gets defined in a way you don’t like (as a Canadian, not a Quebecois, poor thing) you wouldn’t have an eeny weeny shred of empathy for something that has far more impact on a person’s life. I’m sure you could drudge some up if you really, really thought about it.
I’ve given vetarnian the boot. Haven’t caught up on this thread yet; email me if anyone else needs to go.
@David
Darrensball is being a little toerag too, you could boot him, unless there’s any folks here who want to verbally lambast him a little more.
@SFHC
“Excited parrots”: I first read this hours ago and I’m still laughing.
@katz
Yes. And thank you.
WWTH “I really hate it when men tell women that we shouldn’t find the things that we feel threatening to be threatening”
Absofuckinglutely! On a lesser scale I had an experience recently that reminds me of this attitude. I was painting a shop front and a passing man told me (so bit of mansplaining as well) how to do it, with a sexual analogy! When I told him that it was offensive he told me it wasn’t (of course). I said ‘you may not have intended to be offensive, but I am offended, so it is offensive to me’. I doubt he got the point at all.
@Ellesar
And this thread reminds me of when I was offended by the lyrics to the Todd Rundgren song “We Gotta Get You a Woman”:
“They [Women] may be stupid but they sure are fun.”
I called up the radio DJ to tell him the song was sexist. His response: “No, it’s not.”
My perusal of the InterWebz reveals that nowadays this former DJ is on right-wing talk radio.
I can’t believe I’ve just read this. Another PUA practising rape like Roosh. David surely there is something we can do about this guy? Can you post on him to warn others?
http://krauserpua.com/2015/07/27/belgrade-diaries-2015-part-two/
Alan Robertshaw
To be frank with you, I’d completely forgotten that I still had this blog as I never used it and I should update it to reflect my current thinking, which has moved on a little. I’ve only ever posted two blogs and they’re to be found here.
http://www.inside-man.co.uk/2015/02/16/feminism-patriarchy-hurt-men-boys/
and here
http://www.inside-man.co.uk/2014/10/26/when-i-talk-about-mens-issues-my-wife-says-i-sound-like-a-c/
After both articles I had to spend hours arguing against MRAs. The only comments I got from feminists were positive.
I am certainly not “anti-feminist”. I have some criticisms of some things said and done in the name of feminism, but I think that’s healthy and unavoidable in a live movement. Ultimately I believe that the root cause of problems faced by men and boys is patriarchy and that feminism should include, within its radius of concern, gendered-problems faced by M&B in proportion to their significance and prevalence. I believe that these problems fall under the stated remit of feminism because they’re issues of gender-inequality caused by patriarchal attitudes.
If feminism won’t fight these issues as gendered issues, then who will? We do not want a separate men’s rights movement to do it, do we!
I’m conscious that we’ve gone off topic because you’ve chosen to tackle the player and not the ball. Even if I were “anti-feminist”, which I’m not, it wouldn’t preclude my argument that these banners are not in and of themselves evidence of a prevalence of rape culture.
kirbywarp,
I’m saying that these banners, in and of themselves, do not demonstrate rape culture, and they only could be interpreted that way if you read them in the context of frats who have said things that do display rape intentions.
I believe that the article itself denies women their own agency.
@darrensball:
Alright, let’s play a game. Pretend you are a freshman girl going to college for the first time. You already know all the terrible rumors about frats, how they tend to be full of dudes that host parties just so they can get in women’s pants. You’ve heard about other frats who do openly display rape intentions, and you’ve seen plenty of movies portraying frats as horny, misogynistic, drunken louts.
And even though you know not every frat is this way, you are the target of their terrible behavior. You are the one they might try to get drunk and fuck, and if you show up at a party, you know at the bare minimum you’re going to have to fend off advances from the older guys.
This is (at least part of) the unavoidable context of being a woman in today’s college culture.
And so you are being driven up by your dad to your dorm on the first day of college, and while driving past one of the frat houses, you see this:
“Rowdy And Fun!!! Hope your baby girl is ready for a good time…”
“Freshman Daughter Drop Off”
“Go ahead and drop off Mom too”
Now for the questions.
1. Are these banners talking about you?
2. Are these banners directed at you?
3. Do they seem like invitations directed towards you?
4. If you intended to visit the frats, would you feel safe? Why or why not?
Please explain your thought process as much as necessary for each question.
1. Yes
2. No
3. No.
4. This is difficult for me to answer because I couldn’t imagine keeping this company at all. At very least we know from their banners that they’re extremely boorish. And for the reasons you describe well, I wouldn’t feel safe in any frat party unless I knew the men well. Campus sexual abuse is a problem – I’m not disputing that. In the context of all that you’ve described I can easily see why these banners would make women feel even more unsafe: It is right that they were removed – I’m not disputing that either.
All of the above said, I can quite imagine a group of immature young men thinking what fun it would be to piss off moms and dads by suggesting that their daughters are going to have loads of casual sex, without the idea of rape ever entering their heads.
The young women’s banners (whilst different in many ways) also looked like the sort of thing that would worry many moms and dads – so perhaps this is the common theme?
It’s possible that we’re talking at cross-purposes. The banners might very well contribute to women’s sense of vulnerability but without that ever being the motivation behind the banners. Naive, offensive and distasteful? Yes. Rape culture? I can see how it would add to a sense of that if viewed from the perspective that you’ve described, but not in and of themselves.
The key here is whether the banners make you more or less uncomfortable, and why. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say you agree that the banners would make a freshman girl more uncomfortable.
I would say that they would specifically make a freshman girl more wary of the possibility of sexual assault, specifically because the content of the banner is obviously about sex and the freshman girl is obviously the subject being talked about, but not being talked to. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that your use of “extremely boorish” means you at least partially agree with this.
So, like you said, we have a group of college men thinking it’d be hilarious to make a particular type of joke that ends up making freshman women more wary of the possibility that they might be sexually assaulted. And the men might not even realize that this is the effect.
Hey, guess what? That’s rape culture. Not that every dude thinks rape is hunky dory, not that every dude even has rape in mind or necessarily treats it like a joke, but rather that people contribute things to an atmosphere that has the effect of making rape more common or more acceptable.
The key thing that makes you (as the hypothetical freshman woman) uncomfortable about these banners is that they are talking about sex with you without talking to you. This is practically the definition of denying agency. They give the impression that you (again, as the hypothetical freshman woman) would not be able to attend a frat party without having to be on the defensive against dudes trying to fuck you.
We’ll get to the women’s banners later. I just want to impress upon you how close you already are to understanding the idea of rape culture and recognizing why the banners were reinforcements. It’s just that you have a somewhat misguided impression about what rape culture actually is.
And how context works. The exact same actions can have completely different meanings and completely different effects culture-wide depending on the context. A neo-nazi marching around praising the third reich would look like an isolated extremist in modern America. So much so that the general cultural impression is that that person should be able to demonstrate like anyone else, partly because we know their ideas will never gain traction.
But take the same person marching in 1935. They would be adding support for an existing political party, and we would view them completely differently.
It’s pointless to derive meaning “in and of” a thing itself, because there is no such thing. Human beings give meaning to things, and that meaning is based on the experience of those human beings. The meaning of the words themselves is unavoidably tangled up in the meaning of the words in the context of culture.
If there were no rape culture, the banners would be just be odd. Within rape culture, they are an expression of and a reinforcement. of it. The fact that men who probably don’t think rape is ok and didn’t think of rape while making the banners still thought it was a funny idea to ignore the freshman women’s agency is rape culture.
Somehow missed this part on my first read of your comment, so it turns out I don’t have to go out on a limb.
The thing is that when you’re looking at overall effects on society rather than worrying about the morality of individual actions, then the intent with which each individual acted is irrelevant. As you point out, the fear created by such a banner exists independently of whatever the intention behind it was; and it is the omnipresent one-directional fear which we refer to as rape culture.
The fact that it does not appear to be threatening if viewed from your perspective is key here. Rape culture is invisible, if not actually comfortable, for those who are not directly targeted by it. Which is not you, or me, or Kirby. But it is many of the people on this site. Think of it as infrared radiation: some of us have goggles, some of us don’t; and those of us who do not should take care not to contradict those who do on matters pertaining to IR.
Kirbywarp,
Your lengthy reply deserves more thought than I can provide just at the moment (I have a bit of work to do). I will give it some thought later today. Thank you for taking the trouble to engage so constructively.
All my best
@EJ:
And it should be uncomfortable, for anyone with a bit of empathy. Even men should be at the very least grossed out when another dude starts talking about women like objects. I don’t agree that rape culture is invisible, but I will agree that for people who don’t know about it it’s comfortable. I think it’s more like one of those “cannot unsee” things, like the penis towers on the Little Mermaid cover.
Complete with people who are so dead-set against the idea that this thing exists, that even when they catch a glimpse of it for the first time, their first reaction is to blame the other person for having a messed-up mind somehow for seeing it that way. It’s not until they see the same thing in multiple places that they start to realize that this isn’t just a weird coincidence or an outlier.
Oh joy, another “what about teh menz” mansplainer coming to ‘splain to us us all about how the creepy “welcome” signs put out by upperclassmen are really empowering to girls just newly out from under their parents’ protective eyes. Gosh, it’s like that sinking feeling I had the first time I saw one just like these, waaaaay back in 1986, is just a figment of my unempowered imagination! Like I totally misread the intent behind “Kiss your virginity goodbye” and “Shave yer dotter’s box” [sic]. And all this time, I never even thought that all those older men suddenly hitting on me in crude and frightening ways when they knew I had nowhere to turn for help, were just trying to EMPOWER me! Gollywhiz, I feel so silly now!
[/sarcasm, because clearly our troll doesn’t understand a goddamn thing about rape culture, not having to navigate its pitfalls daily as young women do. Or older women either, come to that.]