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Rape culture deniers: Genuinely confused or just pretending?

Rape Culture deniers: Genuinely confused or just pretending?
Rape Culture deniers: Are they this confused about everything?

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So yesterday I posted about the repulsive, rapey banners that some frat guys hung from the balcony of their frat at Old Dominion University in Virginia. Banners that were so obviously problematic that the school administration immediately suspended the frat to investigate.

Here. as a reminder, are the banners in question:

They ruined three bedsheets for this?
House of Rape Culture

I also quoted Amanda Marcotte, who noted that, when faced with clear evidence of rape culture like these banners, rape apologists like to

suddenly pretend they are aliens from another planet and only learned human language last week and therefore are incapable of picking up on humor, implication, non-verbal communication and nuanced language. They pretend to ascribe to a form of communication so literal that even the slightest bit of metaphor or implication, to hear them talk, sends them spinning into a state of confusion.

After I put up my post yesterday, several rape culture deniers wandered into my Twitter mentions, as if to prove Marcotte’s point, posting pictures of banners put up by sorority women  at the school and demanding to know why I wasn’t attacking these women for their alleged promotion of rape culture as well.

https://twitter.com/WoolyBumblebee/status/636343927914786817

I suspect most of you are as nonplussed by this as I was. Because these banners don’t actually promote rape culture. And not because the people holding them up are women, not men.

The frat’s banners have a creepy, predatory edge to them. They are addressed not to the incoming freshmen women, but to the fathers of these women. They strongly suggest that any woman who walks through their doors — or is “dropped off” by dad — is going to be shown a “rowdy … good time” whether she’s “ready” for it or not.

They don’t explicitly use the word “rape” but given how completely they erase the agency of the young women in question they might as well just do that.

The rape threat is implicit, not explicit, but it is clear enough that most people seeing these banners can understand in an instant what they “really mean” and what the problem is.

The banners held up by the sorority women are a different thing entirely. They don’t put forth the message: “we are going to do things to you (whether you like it or not).” They are playful, not threatening, and tell prospective dates “we like sex, and if you get with us you might even get to do ‘butt stuff.'”

The first banner only asks that men pull out before they come; no one wants any babies. The second tells men they are “welcome” to use the back door, nudge nudge. Instead of saying “we will do things to you,” they say “you can do things to us.” Presumably in the context of consensual sex.

Just as rape =/= sex, talking about sex =/= talking about rape.

Is it creepy that when new freshmen men arrive on the campus they’re greeted with giant banners aimed at them and laden with sexual innuendo? Maybe, but it’s nowhere near as creepy as banners greeting freshman women (and their mothers) with not-very-subtle threats of rape.

I tried to get this point across to one of my Twitter interlocutors, the antifeminist Youtube gadfly WoolyBumblebee; it didn’t take. Some excerpts of the ensuing “discussion.”

wb1

Rape threats, even implicit ones, are rape culture. Mentions of sex aren’t. You’d think this wouldn’t be hard to understand.

wb2

 

Does WoolyBumblebee really not understand that if someone says “you can put it in my butt” they are not threatening to rape you?

It might not be the appropriate thing to bring up at, say, a dinner party. And if you say it repeatedly to someone not interested in sex with you, it would be sexual harassment.

But it wouldn’t be a rape threat.

WoolyBumblebee more or less conceded this point shortly afterwards. And returned to claiming (or pretending) she didn’t see the threat in the banners posted by the frat guys.

wb3

Around and around we go!

Or we would have if I hadn’t gotten off the internet to watch an episode of Mr. Robot.

The question I am left with, as I generally am in the wake of “discussions” with those who seem to be incapable of understanding the basics of human language, is this: Are these people really this literal-minded and obtuse, or are they just pretending? 

If the former, how exactly do they manage to even work a computer? Did they make bird noises at their laptop or into their phone for weeks on end before someone explained that’s not how Twitter works? Do they understand the difference between filing their nails and filing their taxes?

It’s gotta be an act, right?

 

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davidknewton
davidknewton
5 years ago

They’ve chosen what they think and will deny any sort of argument that challenges that. Although why anyone would cling so tightly to the idea that rape culture doesn’t exist is a mystery to me – do they think just being less predatory to people is a wasted effort?

ShakeB
ShakeB
5 years ago

I wouldn’t have been surprised if MRAs were able to produce an example comparable to the ODU shitbaggery (people of all types do fucked up things) but that’s the best they can muster?

300baud
300baud
5 years ago

I think it’s a state in between the two choices. I think they’re being willfully obtuse. They really don’t understand, but it’s only because they unconsciously reject getting too close to anything that might tell them that they’re wrong. To consciously pretend they would have to have a much better understanding of the facts, the logical relationship between concepts, and their own motivations. But that’s all opaque to them because they will exhaust all other alternatives before any sort of painful realization that they are entitled misogynist shitheels who would exploit women if only they could get close enough to them.

Doug
Doug
5 years ago

The content of the fraternity signs is obviously worse, but I’m not sure that’s the entire story. I think that if the fraternity sign had said, “Freshmen girls, our couches don’t pull out, so we do” it would still be problematic. The cultural context, where women have a lot to fear from sexual interactions, means that — in this context (sexual messages communicated to strangers in public) — women can be playful about sex in a way that I’m not sure is really possible for men.

(This is not meant as a whine about things being unfair for men — rather, an observation that toxic masculinity hits guys with some collateral damage as well.)

Mongo
Mongo
5 years ago

There is no implicit threat of rape in those banners. Doesn’t matter how many times you say it.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Boys make banners to promote rape culture:
“Come on lighten up its just a joke”

Girls make banners that promote consensual sex:
“Girls are promoting rape culture! See!? Girls do it too! You only care about female victims!”

Gotta love that anti feminist logic.

tguerrant
tguerrant
5 years ago

When last I heard of WoolyBB she was defending herself against accusations that she’d swiped $5k from Elam Inc.

The since made superfluous Esmay had much to say about it at the time what with him being a woman-hating survivor of abuse and therefore vulnerable to new woman-hating abusers like WoolyBB and in need of your sympathy. Strange world. At least when they’re around.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Feel free to delete this if it’s a bit too accusatory, but this is my opinion on it:

It’s the cartoon character whistling conspicuously while they saunter away from the smashed antique vase. They know they’ve personally profited from rape culture, either from something they’ve done or something a close friend or family member has done. But they don’t want to think of themselves/their friends/their family as criminals, or don’t want the law to catch up with them, so they deny, deny, deny. The sky would be tartan and water would be as acidic as Cthulhu’s piss if saying so let them stay in their bubble of safety.

Dan kasteray
Dan kasteray
5 years ago

It’s not an act. Their hatred of women is just overshadowed by their fear of liability

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

It doesn’t matter that they’re arguing it wasn’t a rape threat. When something is an explicit rape threat, they still victim blame, say the victim should lighten up, accuse the victim of milking the threat to get publicity, and come up with whacky conspiracy theories about the threats being faked. There’s nothing a man can say or do to a woman that will make an anti-feminism concede that it was misogyny. I exhibit no surprise they’re pretending there was nothing wrong with the banners.

makingfitzcarraldo
makingfitzcarraldo
5 years ago

Acknowledging it would then mean doing something about it. They don’t want to exert themselves, nor do they want to hear about it. Even hearing about it is too much effort. So instead they blame those “forcing” them to hear what they don’t want to hear.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Mongo | August 26, 2015 at 9:35 pm
There is no implicit threat of rape in those banners. Doesn’t matter how many times you say it.

Thanks for showing up to prove David’s point by ignoring all the context with your ableist as fuck username. (Just so you know, that’s short for “mongoloid”, which is an ableist term. We’re not fond of ableism here.)

I’m sure you didn’t read the comments policy (and I’m going to assume you’re a drive-by troll as most of you are), so I’ll just link you in case you want to try again.

Since you missed the point, allow me to reiterate: Women have to worry about being sexually assaulted by men, especially in frat houses. The tone of these banners is predatory to women. They are saying “We’re going to fuck your daughters and wives!” straight to the fathers of future female students and husbands of those student’s mothers, without any sort of acknowledgement to the daughters and wives they’re referring to.

The banners being held up by those women are welcoming. They are inviting men to have sex with them, and that’s okay because that’s consensual.

“We’re going to fuck your daughters!” =/= “You’re welcome in the back! (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)”

Again, social context and history is important. Just because you have the luxury of ignoring it, it doesn’t mean women do.

makingfitzcarraldo
makingfitzcarraldo
5 years ago

I was referring to rape apologia (don’t drink, what were you wearing, boys will be boys, etc). The rapists themselves are like racists who admit what they are when taking for granted they think what everyone thinks.

Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
5 years ago

They understand it just fine. these are the same people who can use “don’t talk to me” signals just fine when walking past evangelists on the street (walk faster, no eye contact, don’t smile, etc), yet mysterious “had no idea” that the woman they’re harassing didn’t want their attentions.

Tessa
5 years ago

Ha ha! The women with the second banner really need college, they spelled “but” wro… Oh. OH! Nevermind! ha ha ha.

Anyway… This is how it always is. They never recognize the whole argument is about agency and consent.

anon
anon
5 years ago

I’m commenting as a guy from a guys perspective.

They probably just see the banners as “You can have sex with the guys here” and don’t see any of the creepy undertones.

They fantasize about going to a sorority and sleeping with all of the women there so they don’t see how a similar message could be scary as hell or threatening to a woman.

The women that don’t get it probably see it as just “come here, get laid” and the “we will all fuck you whether you like it or not” and the “if you’re sent here by a third party we’ll rape you” message doesn’t register.

I’m just saying that it might just be their bubble and not the typical MRA lame denial maneuver.

Wooly is an obvious troll but if someone genuinely doesn’t get it it could be harmful to spreading awareness of problems like this if people jump to the conclusion that they must be denying something obvious.

makingfitzcarraldo
makingfitzcarraldo
5 years ago

Anon, maybe the first two but “drop off mom too”?

Falconer
5 years ago

Yeah, anon, I’m a guy and I’m writing from a guy’s perspective, and all three of those banners are entitled (to say the least), aggressive, predatory, and speaking directly to other men about women, with the implication that what the women think about the sex isn’t important.

That’s not inviting or playful, it’s disgusting, threatening, and scary.

anon
anon
5 years ago

@makingfitzcarraldo

Like I said, it’s a bubble thing.

Thanks to my bubble it took me a while to notice the problem.

The students themselves might not even realize the creepy undertones.

They might genuinely think that it’s the equivalent of “come here to get laid, we don’t care if you’re older” without realizing that it reduces women to packages that are sent there for a purpose that they have no control over.

Thanks to my bubble I still might not completely get it. I think I get it but I have the nagging feeling that I’m missing something.

Éliane
Éliane
5 years ago

It’s a well known manipulation technique actually. My ex did it all the time. Twisting everything as if he didn’t understand and then, couldn’t possibly be the bad guy and I was because I was accusing him.

Gerry
Gerry
5 years ago

There’s no rape threat, implicit or explicit, in the signs. Seriously, get over it. You lose all credibility by making these kind of claims.

makingfitzcarraldo
makingfitzcarraldo
5 years ago

Anon, excusing the bubble (this was too aggressive to be even that) doesn’t help. When does it end? Girls have to dress a certain way for the poor boys to concentrate in hs. Sure, boys might start accepting that toxic outlook they can’t help themselves, or are they just latching on to what is easiest to not feel bad about themselves/expect themselves to do better? I grew up with older relatives espousing some “product of their time” b.s.. I don’t know, to me it just seemed an excuse to not stop and think for themselves. No one made these boys objectify teen girls and their moms. They just made it easier to not think about it.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

They probably just see the banners as “You can have sex with the guys here” and don’t see any of the creepy undertones.

But that’s what’s so bad about it. It’s so normalized to see women as sex objects without any agency that implied rape threat doesn’t even register. That’s what rape culture does. It allows men to talk about raping women, joke about it, and even do it without it ever occurring to them that it’s rape.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

There is no implicit threat of rape in those banners. Doesn’t matter how many times you say it.

Banners basically ordering fathers to deliver their daughters and wives to fratboys’ door are never NOT rapey, no matter how hard you idiots deny it. Because the women are being given no choice or agency in the matter, capisce?

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Also, for those claiming the sorority signs were anything equivalent: Most of that stuff is grossly silly (I mean, who uses the pull-out method, a.k.a. Vatican roulette, in this day and age?), but not rapey. “Megan does butt stuff” might be rapey, if it involves a strap-on and a guy who did not express a desire or consent to be pegged. But(t) somehow I doubt that it means that.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

I don’t think it’s an act. Rather, it’s a completely unexamined double-standard. They apply different rules to interactions with women than they apply to interactions with men. It’s something they pick up from culture: that the correct way to interact with other men is as multi-dimensional subjects, and the correct way to interact with women is as one-dimensional sexual objects. One might even call it … rape culture.

They know that double-standards are bad – this is another thing our culture teaches us – and they believe themselves to be good people, so they must rationalize to make the double-standard seem like it isn’t one. All of this is handled outside of the language center, and without self-examination and the application of logic the process is completely invisible. People who hold these kinds of beliefs generally tend to think of themselves as already perfectly logical without any study or effort, and they aren’t open to the suggestion that maybe they might have something to learn.

So, I have to say that the “are they really this dense or are they pretending” is a false dilemma, and the truth is that their intelligence covers the range of human normal, but they are caught in a stupidity trap of their assumptions about themselves, and unwillingness to examine those assumptions.

Snowberry
Snowberry
5 years ago

Well, the two could be considered roughly equivalent from the point of view where women are spiders who lure men into their sinister webs with promises of sex. You might not even get laid, but you get turned into a withered husk either way. Which is the sort of thing that probably some manospherians believe.

Grettir
Grettir
5 years ago

I think saying this is a “rape threat” is overstating it in a way that might make it easier not to hear. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I doubt any of those guys were thinking they were telling a rape joke, or thinking about raping women. What they were doing is thinking about sex as conquest, and thinking about freshmen women and moms like property of their fathers/husbands. What’s ugly about this is not that it’s a rape threat, but that it expresses some really patriarchal assumptions that contribute to rape culture. Maybe splitting hairs here, but I think it’s an important distinction, and one that might help some people understand the problem with these banners.

Lady Mondegreen
5 years ago

Cross-posted from Facebook:

After the way her fellow honey badgers treated her, I’m a bit surprised to see Wooly still promoting MRA crap.

But as a plagiarist and a failed AVFM “activist” I don’t suppose she has much else going for her.*
.

* I’d actually hoped she might have learned something. Silly me.

Tessa
5 years ago

Grettir: Uh what do you call what happens to the women when a man hands over his daughter and her mom over to the boys for sex with the women has no say in said sex? Wouldn’t the sex-act the woman has no say over be rape?

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@davidknewton, @300baud, @SFHC, @Dan kasteray, @makingfitzcarraldo, @Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
I’ve given a lot of thought–maybe too much thought–to why people say things are okey-doke when things emphatically are not. Your comments are especially insightful.

What strikes me about the women’s posters is how they stand next to them, all disarming smiles. The guys–not so much.

Tessa
5 years ago

You can change “with the woman has no say” into either “with the woman having no say” or “when the women have no say.” Whichever makes you feel happier, and we can forget I said anything else.

jillhorton
5 years ago

Double Standard in action.
Frat Boys put up aggressive/rapey/objectifying banners: lol! Boys will be boys.
Sorority Girls put up silly/stupid banners expressing their interest in having sex (maybe even in the butt) and suddenly “They’re rapey TOO!”

It’s like they can’t ever acknowledge that some men might possibly be rapists, without waving their hands around screaming women do it too.

jpageusmc
5 years ago

What is obviously being implied by those banners is that there will be drinking and sex, but it honestly seems like this and the previous article on this topic were suggesting that the banners read; “Come inside this house and you will be raped.” I simply believe it is not totally correct to equate drinking and sex with rape, because of course people can drink and have sex and not have it be rape (which I understand many disagree with, but I’m not going to get into that). I do acknowledge that many rapes do occur under these circumstances, but I feel that most individuals would specifically be referring to mutually consensual sex here (which many people in college of both genders agree is “a good time”), rather than advertising rape publicly as fun and a good time.

hippodameia8527
hippodameia8527
5 years ago

Would anyone else like to prove David’s point?

gosuamakenatek
gosuamakenatek
5 years ago

There’s a huuuuge difference between “Hey guys/girls, want to come have sex with us? If so, we’re available (including our butts)”
And “Hey, owners of guys/girls, bring us your children so that we may use their bodies, you may have your property back when we’ve had our fun with it”
You can deny that the latter is threatening or rape culture all you want, but no sane human being can deny that it’s incredibly disrespectful and dehumanizing and speaks to how they see women as slabs of meat rather than people.

BritterSweet
5 years ago

They’re being deliberately obtuse because they don’t actually want to learn anything or be less shitty. They just want you to shut up and stop invalidating (or simply not-validating) them. Kind of like how when someone is told they can’t say a slur they go, “But what if aliens invaded, pointed a gun to my head and ordered me to say it?”

CCD
CCD
5 years ago

I agree with you on the differences between the frat and sorority messages. I said as much in the previous post, regarding the banners. However, even without the implication of rape, I think this “welcome” which creates a sexually harassing environment for newly arriving students (and their mothers), which reduces them to sex objects for the use of established students, does indeed contribute to campus rape culture. Ignoring the individuals and seeing them as just a newly arrived batch of sex toys on campus, that can be a dangerous thing. The schools shouldn’t be tolerating this from frats and sororities. It may be university, a time to experiment and go wild when it comes to sex, but it’s also a time for personal growth, and some adult behaviour should be expected. This tradition needs to be put away, the students need to learn to act with some respect, and I’m sure they can find less crass ways of advertising their sexual availability to one another.

Grettir
Grettir
5 years ago

Tessa, I don’t disagree with you. Although I doubt anyone is getting handed over by the patriarch to this fraternity, it’s a super problematic myth. It’s a really messed up way to joke about sex, with really bad implications. I don’t think it was intended as a rape joke, though, which seems to be what the defenders are latching onto. Like, I assume the people who made the joke would be genuinely shocked that people think they were talking about rape, because they’ve never thought through the implications. That’s what’s insidious about it.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Snowberry | August 26, 2015 at 10:58 pm
Well, the two could be considered roughly equivalent from the point of view where women are spiders who lure men into their sinister webs with promises of sex. You might not even get laid, but you get turned into a withered husk either way. Which is the sort of thing that probably some manospherians believe.

This topic always reminds me of those idjits who think that women should wear less makeup/be mothers/stay at home/whatever because it’s more “natural”.

I always have to bring up that the definition of “natural” is “Something that occurs in nature”. You know what occurs in nature? Females of a species killing and eating a male who doesn’t live up to their standards.

jpageusmc | August 26, 2015 at 11:29 pm
What is obviously being implied by those banners is that there will be drinking and sex, but it honestly seems like this and the previous article on this topic were suggesting that the banners read; “Come inside this house and you will be raped.”

Forgive me for not completely agreeing with you here, and I assure you it’s on the basis of the fact that I am a cisgendered female, and I can see from your icon that you are male, so I am going to have a perspective that you don’t share.

I don’t think you’re trolling, for what it’s worth, but I would suggest to you that you look on the history that frat houses share with rape. Several frat houses have had members who are rapists, and they’ve spouted lots of rape-y, vulgar things. This banner incident is another straw in a massive haystack.

We also think it’s very rape-y because of the way the banners are worded. Several users (myself included) have pointed out that the banners completely disregard the women they’re talking about, instead going directly for their fathers (or husbands, in the case of the last one).

So, yeah, we do believe that there are promises of rape being made.

I simply believe it is not totally correct to equate drinking and sex with rape, because of course people can drink and have sex and not have it be rape (which I understand many disagree with, but I’m not going to get into that).

The reason that “many would disagree” with that statement is that alcohol impairs your mind. You’re not in a right state of mind when you’re drunk. I think what you’re trying to say here is that some people get tipsy and have sex, or some people have a few beers and have sex, and that’s fine.

However, what we are talking about when we discuss alcohol and rape is usually stumbling, passed-out drunken rape. Not “I had a few beers and I’m feeling frisky” sex.

I do acknowledge that many rapes do occur under these circumstances, but I feel that most individuals would specifically be referring to mutually consensual sex here (which many people in college of both genders agree is “a good time”), rather than advertising rape publicly as fun and a good time.

Well, I mentioned this in the last thread too, that we have a negative association with the word “rape”, as we should. However, for people who are prone to “getting sex by hook or by crook”, they don’t like the word “rape”, because they know it’s bad, even though it’s exactly what they’re doing. There was a study done actually that shows that 1 in 3 men said they’d rape someone if it wasn’t called rape.

Naturally, they won’t come out and say “We’re going to rape your daughters!”, because that would be even worse than what they did, which is still pretty bad. And, let’s face it, “everyone knows that rape is bad”.

What they’re doing is, arguably, in their minds not rape. It’s “sexy fun” that these freshman girls want, even though it’s predatory in nature, and also contributes to a larger culture that all but openly supports rapists. Hence why I, and people like me, want better consent education and we want to discuss rape culture. Because sunlight is the best disinfectant.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Tessa,
The Duggar women come to mind.

Jpageusmc,
The implied rape threat isn’t about drinking. There is a debate to be had on how drunk is too drunk to consent and we’ve had it in other threads here before. The implied rape threat is that they’re requesting women be dropped off by their male owner (father in the case of the freshman women, husband in the case of their moms) to be fucked without any agency ever being even slightly hinted at. Even the first banner, it’s threatening. “Hope your baby girl is ready for a good time …” What’s beyond the ellipses? Something along the lines of “because she’s going to get it.” Whether she wants it or not. Again, there’s no hint that they have any choice in the matter. And the words “baby girl” are very creepy. They seem to be attracted to the idea that these young women might be sheltered and naïve. In other words, not practiced in fighting off drunk horny guys that aren’t keen on taking no for an answer.

Funny how most of the commenters who aren’t seeing the rapeyness have tended to be men, but most of the female commenters completely see it. It’s almost like women have had to spend their lifetime honing their senses and reading signals from men because thanks to rape culture, we can’t help but learn many rape avoidance tactics. Maybe men should listen to us when we read a man’s signals as possibly threatening. We’re the ones who have a lot invested in reading men’s behaviors correctly.

Grettir
Grettir
5 years ago

In their heads, I’m sure they’re just joking about sleeping with women. The “it’s just a joke man” mentality makes it easy to not understand what story you’re telling.

History Nerd
5 years ago

It’s a feedback loop (or, perhaps better put, vicious cycle) issue. Sexual violence is a gendered issue, so people interpret the fraternity banners in that context, which reinforces sexual violence. There’s nothing inherently predatory about the statements themselves in a vacuum, but the only people who consider that a good argument are libertarians who believe in crazy shit like that inductive reasoning is never valid.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

“There are none so blind as the man who won’t see.”

Some of them are rapists covering their asses, and some of them are just people who otherwise profit from rape culture, even if that profit only consists of “I don’t have to feel uncomfortable about the world around me and the views of the people in it.”

For some, I think it’s just a knee-jerk defense of the status quo. “Frats have ALWAYS pulled these kinds of stunts, so they’re normal and not rapey!” “I know people who do this kind of stuff, people who I like, so clearly they can’t be bad or rapey!” “I had to put up with this shit when I went to college, so why should other people not have to?” etc, etc.

hentropy
hentropy
5 years ago

Am I the only one who thinks those sorority banners are a little crappy? I mean, it’s clearly not as bad as the frat banners and doesn’t have the same connotations, but did I miss the memo where college was no supposed to be about higher education? I think the “party mentality” in general is what contributes not just to rape but also peer pressure to have sex before the young women are truly comfortable and ready for it, and anything that advertises “there’s lots of parties and sex going on here!” contributes to that toxic environment no matter who is doing it. Obviously the frat’s banners are quite rapey and they generated a strong response, but really any kind of sexually suggestive “advertising” should be banned or discouraged in a place like college. I’m generally sex positive but arguing over “whose immature and overly sexual banners are worse” is sorta missing a big point there.

More on topic, though, people generally react strongly to the “rape culture” term because most people don’t see a visible epidemic of rape, nor do they see any systemic problems with rape prosecution and law enforcement. They see a singular focus on rape as more of a political ploy to take advantage of a problem that they think doesn’t even exist. Many people have many motivations of course, some people may just have genuinely retrograde views and can be hardcore misogynists, others might be reasonable but don’t feel convinced. It’s our job to convince them with evidence, not simply call them terrible and call them misogynistic rape apologists for questioning a single detail or not having the same knowledge base as others.

katz
5 years ago

“Rapists don’t advertise en masse.” So according to Woolybumblebee, a banner that said “We will rape you” would not be a rape threat.

Moocow
Moocow
5 years ago

@WWTH

Maybe men should listen to us when we read a man’s signals as possibly threatening. We’re the ones who have a lot invested in reading men’s behaviors correctly.

Might be a bit off topic but I noticed that so many biotroofs spouted by idiots are really just ‘women being logical’.

It’s behaviors I would do as well if I had to worry about my personal safety in so many social situations.

Jody
Jody
5 years ago

Their entire argument hinges on them not understanding. If they acknowledge even a smidgen, their whole house of cards tumbles down.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

@History Nerd

Please refer to the comments policy regarding the use of words like “crazy” on this blog. Also:

There’s nothing inherently predatory about the statements themselves in a vacuum

Nope, even in a vacuum, divorced from cultural context, they’re still ignoring the agency of women in their banners. The only time that “Hope your baby girl is ready for a good time” is a non-predatory (or non-consent ignoring, which is the same fucking thing) statement would be in the case of a daycare worker taking a literal baby girl from her parents to play with the other kids in the day care. And even then, it’s still not a statement or a inquiry about the girl’s desires, it’s about what her keepers deem appropriate for her to experience. Which is generally fine in the case of a literal baby, as they have not yet developed the capacity to make decisions and care for themselves autonomously, but it’s a completely unacceptable, and yes, predatory, way to treat an adult woman.

Here, have a slightly altered quote, with slightly more blatant cultural context:
“Hey Fathers, I hope your baby girl is ready to go for a ride in my windowless van!”
Still think it’s an innocent statement?

Broken Butterfly
Broken Butterfly
5 years ago

My feelings on the BUBBLE or THE GUYS DIDN”T KNOW or whatever else…

It is a rape threat. Flat out.

If you know what you’re saying, and you say it anyway, you shouldn’t be doing that and you deserve to be called out for your shitty behavior.

If you don’t know what you’re saying… you still shouldn’t be doing that — ignorance does not excuse you — and thus you need to be called out for your shitty behavior so that you realize it is shitty behavior.

Either way, the point is, people who do this get called out for it. Whether they “knew” or not doesn’t matter, they’re still doing it. Ignorance of a law doesn’t really excuse you from that law, does it?

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