So The Independent recently ran a piece by Catherine Murphy of Amnesty International, explaining why the organization is calling for the decriminalization of sex work.
In the comments, someone calling themselves THEMISHMISHEH offers a unique take on the issue.
And by “unique” I mean “seemingly from another planet.”
Shades of Tom Martin, huh?
Thanks, Alan.
Hearing the words “child prostitute” makes me want to cry. And despair for humanity.
Anyone who entertains the idea of legalization of prostitution should read Der Spiegel’s report on legal prostitution in Germany: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533.html
Or this one, from The Telegraph, titled “Welcome to Paradise” (Paradise is one of Germany’s legal mega-brothels):
http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/
The money quote:
Read it and weep.
There are many more such reports, all easily googleable. I’d wager one does not need to read them to understand the reality of prostitution, legalized and not, if one has imagination and an intact conscience.
Somewhat flippantly (though not really), even if we didn’t know anything else, the fact that Esmay endorses the AI’s proposal for being in line with the MRA agenda should signal immediately that it is wrong.
I must address this:
@grumpy
“But for the most part, I think that the payoff from buying sex is that you can assert your will without having to worry about consensuality.”
Look maybe for a lot of clients it is, but it is not why I do it. I pay for sex specifically because it helps focus me on getting consent in clear, concise and specific ways. (I enjoy kink, I don’t need to get into details) I have trust issues, I have a very hard time letting people in and I find interpersonal relations confusing at times. The cash I am paying requires me to 1) open up about my desires and 2) move on if a person says no. The very business like aspect of the transaction means everything is clearly discussed and laid out. If the sex worker says no/stop even after I paid that is part of the bargain. The cash is a necessary condition of having consent of the sex worker, it’s obviously not sufficient.
And clients who think otherwise are abusers.
hobbesianacademic: I’m going to take you at your word on how you conduct yourself when procuring sex. What I have issue with is the notion that you represent even a significant proportion of johns.
If all johns (or even the majority, or hell, even a plurality of all the attitudes that we could isolate) were like you claim to be, then there would be far fewer concerns about prostitution at all. But the world as we have it doesn’t work like that.
Also, without getting into oppression olympics, the situation for female prostitutes, gay male prostitutes and straight male prostitutes are not directly equivalent. There are aspects of male privilege that come into play that alleviate some of the key issues that female prostitutes face. Not negate–I wouldn’t want to claim that.
GrumpyoldSJM: it’s part of “cool-girl feminism”. Don’t worry boys, I’m fun! I’m cool! I won’t take away your porn or your prostitutes, not like those mean feminists over there!
“Gone Girl” was a bit ridiculous in its portrayal of Amy Dunne as the embodiment of every MRA’s worst fears about women. I’ve heard the book was far better than the movie. But Rosamund Pike was bang-on in her description of this phenomenon.
Bina said a lot of what I wanted to say. Thank you.
As a social worker, I’ve dealt with a lot of teenage girls who were either coerced by violence or lured into prostitution by a predatory older “boyfriend”/pimp. Have also seen a lot of women who resorted to prostitution to pay for a drug habit. Somehow, these are never the women who get the microphone when we’re urged to “listen to sex workers.”
The media loves the “empowered sex worker” image, especially if she calls herself a feminist. I don’t doubt there are a few at the elite end who do benefit from it. But that’s no help to the girls and women at the bottom, and there are a lot more of them.
Decriminalizing the sex workers themselves makes sense: it’s physically safer for them if they can report abuse without fear of being arrested. And for some, it really is the least-bad of crappy options. But places that have legalized have seen trafficking go up, not down. Normalizing prostitution creates a higher demand and treats sex as an entitlement for men (who, realistically, are the overwhelming majority of customers. I’m partial to the Swedish model, but could see legalizing the buyer IF he can show that he KNEW FOR A FACT that the the seller was a willing participant and not being trafficked. It’s not good enough to say “I wasn’t sure, so I just took a chance and hoped that what I was doing wasn’t rape.”
There are NO other circumstances where we’d say it was ok to have sex without someone without being 100% sure of consent. Paying for it does not relieve anyone of that responsibility.
I meant Gillian Glynn was bang-on, Rosamund Pike played Amy Dunne.
@freemage
My point isn’t that there are not a ton of really awful entitled shitheads for clients, or that I some how represent a lot of clients. I honestly have no idea how many people buy sex with such an eye towards ethical conduct as I do. (Every sex worker I have hired has commented to me that I am a profoundly ethical client). Nor do I think gay sex workers are identical to straight female sex workers (homophobia comes into play as well). My main point is commercial sex is highly individualized and you can’t generalize. commercial sex is like BDSM; when done correctly it can be profoundly helpful/valuable to the participants when done wrongly, it’s terrible trauma.
I just think topics like this has to be profoundly individualized.
Put me down as another supporter of the Nordic model. I could not care less about the “needs” of the Johns, even the “good” Johns. The Nordic model is so far the one that gives people involved in prostitution the best protection and leverage, and it puts the stigna (at least the legal stigma, hopefully cultural stigma can also be transmuted) on the people responsible for exploiting desperate people, instead of on said desperate/victimized people. That’s a win in my book.
If the “good” Johns are so sure that they’re having respectful, consenting relations with the people they hire, then they don’t have much to worry about, do they? Unless the sex worker reports them or draws attention to them, they probably won’t get caught. If the Johns can expect to be trusted to not murder or assault, surely they can trust the sex workers to not bring the law down on them, right?
I’m just going to say I think the Nordic model is confused conceptually, but it does seem to work relatively well practically.
@hobbesianacademic so what you’re saying is…#notalljohns?
THANK YOU. THANK. YOU. EXACTLY.
THANK YOU.
Regarding human trafficking in Germany, from the Wikipedia article on the subject:
The reasons that the sex trade in Germany is full of exploitation is not necessarily because prostitution was made legal. It appears that Germany is failing to effectively police human trafficking.
I understand that economics constrains our choices to an extent, but that’s true for 99% of the human population. We should absolutely to work for a world where nobody feels the need to chose sex work because the alternatives are crime or deprivation, but to say that nobody has ever chosen is absurd. There are entire online communities of people who are sex-workers by choice. It strikes me as a sort of projection: sex for most people (myself included) is a very intimate and personal thing that they wouldn’t commodify unless they absolutely had to. But it seems presumptuous to assume everyone feels the same way.
@Fnoic
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying let’s not judge anyone’s sexual behavior by general trends. Look I am in favor of sex work being legal, and normalized. I would feel this way regardless if I was a client or not. I think a ton of people do not listen to what both independent sex workers and clients say.
Look most prostitution is likely forced prostitution. No one is in favor of that given that it is rape by any reasonable definition. It should not be grouped in with an independent sex worker’s experience. Likewise, that I am a client and do certain things to respect the personal autonomy of the people I buy sex from should mean I’m not grouped with shithead clients who would be abusive towards any sexual partner they had.
I also think if sex work is legalized and normalized it should also be coupled with far, far better sex education on issues of consent, bodily autonomy, safer sex practices etc.
clients who are shitheads would be shitheads regardless of them being clients I would think.
@hobbiesian, by your own admission you are the exception not the rule. I’m not sure what you’re proposing?
@Fnoic,
I guess I’m proposing that the problems that occur in a sex work context are not caused by the commercial aspect but that toxic masculinity makes men feel entitled to other’s bodies. I think people are saying this causal relation prostitution –> male entitlement –>abuse. when I think it goes like this –>male entitlement –>abuse –> bad conditions for sex workers.
and it is possible, and is carried out, to buy and sell sex ethically.
oh and shitheads shouldn’t ruin nonshitheads fun by placing more risk on a risky activity.
I’ve been quietly appreciating your blog for a couple of months now and just want to express my thoughts on the matter because of some of the comments:
Amnesty International took the right decision that was reached by thorough research and based on harm reduction!
I live in Sweden and am active in the sex worker organisation here, I know plenty of sex workers here and around the world. The Swedish model might sound nicely put together, but it is plain bullshit that sex workers feel like they can safely report crimes to the police because of it, as the police act highly stigmatizing against sex workers. Also, they will risk losing their clients by contacting the police, therefore they don’t feel safe reporting crimes, even not related to their sex work.
This has of course all been evaluated by AI (in Norway that has adopted the Swedish model), and there’s a good Q&A by Amnesty that answers most of these questions.
I’m not sure anybody is saying prostitution is the cause of or feeds male entitlement. There seems to be some confusion out there that if you’re against Amnesty’s proposal, that means you want to see prostitutes locked up. I don’t know if that’s what you’re referring to but I really have not seen anyone in feminist circles saying we need to clamp down on prostitutes as a solution.
Okay. I wasn’t going to say anything, buuuut… I made the mistake of reading the comments, and some of them irritated me to no end, so…
There was a time in my mid-20s when I did sex work. Not because I particularly wanted to, but more because I was unemployed, rent was way up, and I was caring for someone who was disabled. Any money was welcome, regardless of where it came from. Of course I quit when I was reasonably able, though that was mostly because I’d rather not skirt the edge of legality any more than I need to.
However, I don’t appreciate the attitude from people, here or anywhere else, that I (or someone in a similar position) was “exploited” in any way. I was simply taking a option which seemed reasonable at the time. I’ve never had a job I really liked, and some were worse. Fine, maybe I was lucky never to get a really bad client, and it’s way different for people who are forced into sexual slavery, but I’m an adult and can evaluate the risks and am in a position to make my own decisions.
I also don’t like the attitude that it’s somehow inherently soul-crushing, or violates some fundamental morality, or that sex is so sacred that failing to live up to some artificial standard somehow pollutes it. Soul-crushing is doing a job which you’re completely unsuited for. As I said, I’ve had completely legal jobs which were far worse for me. Sex work was tolerable, which is about the best which could be said for anything I’ve done. And morality? Sorry, I don’t subscribe to any moral beliefs which puts sex on a pedestal. That feels horribly awful and wrong.
And for those who would say, “well, if you can’t get a partner, why not just masturbate?” What, are you joking? Maybe it does well enough for some people, but humanity isn’t a monolith, and not everyone works like that. From my own experiences, solo masturbation is hollow and unfulfilling. Another person’s sensual (not necessarily sexual) touch brings me to ecstasy. Usually I don’t even need to “get off” in order to be fulfilled – that’s icing on the cake. Granted, doing things with strangers puts a damper on it, especially if they’re kind of jerkish about it – but for some, there’s a world of difference between solo and intimate contact. And while not one of them, I’d be very surprised surprised to find there are *no* people for whom doing it with a stranger adds to the experience rather than subtracts from it.
The whole anti-sex-work moralizing feels, at least to me, barely different than anti-LBGTQ moralizing. And trying to conflate voluntary sex work with involuntary sex slavery – regardless of the reasons – is like conflating consensual sex with rape. Does anyone seriously need me to explain the difference?
@snowberry, your experience is the exception not the norm. Amnesty’s position seems directed at situations like yours and hobbesianacademic’s. I personally think Amnesty needs to be more focused on those who DON’T have a choice rather than writing policy for a privileged minority.
Forgot to add: some years ago, I knew a fellow social worker who, in his youth, had worked at a brothel as a bartender and door-knocker. (“Door-knocker” is pretty much what it sounds like: he told the customers when their time was up.)
Although brothels are seen as safer than street prostitution, he saw enough violence to do an informal survey, asking the waiting customers if they’d ever hit or otherwise hurt a prostitute. Between 10 and 20 percent said they had.
I’m not claiming any scientific rigor for those numbers; this was one guy asking questions at one location. But what stayed with him (and me) was how he heard the same justification, over and over and over: “I was paying for it.”
This is what I mean about normalizing male entitlement.
Is snowberry’s experience the exception or the norm? It seems like people’s position on sex work is tied up with one’s assessment of how common voluntary sex work is versus involuntary sex slavery. Which would mean that empirical evidence should* resolve this in favor of one position or the other.
Now my own assessment of the evidence is that snowberry’s experience is actually the more typical one, this leading me to support AI’s position. Is there any reliable data on the frequency of coerced entry into sex work? (Not the total amount — what is important is the _ratio_ of coerced to voluntary labor.)
* However, some of those opposing AI’s position don’t care about the facts and just think sex work is inherently wrong. One person in this thread said exactly that.
Snowberry,
Thanks for your perspective. This comments section is starting to feel condescending. I do think everyone’s heart is in the right place and I would agree that sex work is very often exploitative and needs to be carefully regulated, but there’s a huge whiff of privileged people telling others what’s good for them. We do need to acknowledge that sex workers with agency exist.