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Fight for the real victims of prostitution: Pimps and Johns, idiot demands

Evil prostitutes exploiting men
Evil sex workers exploiting men

So The Independent recently ran a piece by Catherine Murphy of Amnesty International, explaining why the organization is calling for the decriminalization of sex work.

In the comments, someone calling themselves THEMISHMISHEH offers a unique take on the issue.

And by “unique” I mean “seemingly from another planet.”

Shades of Tom Martin, huh?

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hippielady
hippielady
5 years ago

uhhh…. Wow

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

How do prostitutes exploit young boys? Are young boys visiting sex workers? Does he not know that this isn’t real life?
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTQ1NDQ3NzU4NV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTA1MTYyMQ@@._V1_SX214_AL_.jpg

J^3 (@JoeKlemmer)
5 years ago

I read this crap and the first thought is it’s a troll. No human (or vertebrae, for that matter) could ever be that much of an imbecile. Someone like that would be to stupid to remember to breath. Then I recall all the crap these deluded morons put out daily and I realize idiocy has no limits.

semaphore
5 years ago

Yeah, sounds like Tom Martin… Whatever happened to the documentary on gold-diggers (if I remember well, that was the topic) he was making? Maybe he should call Aurini to help him make a quality product.

leftwingfox
5 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger:

Why, haven’t you heard of all the roving packs of prostitutes forcing virtuous young men to surrender their purity and hard earned money, often at gunpoint? You haven’t heard of the underground smuggling chains, shipping poor, unsuspecting frat boys to the depths of Nevada, to be sucked dry in the brothels? The shameless sex tourism of Asian prostitutes, travelling to the American Midwest for cheap thrills with the impoverished local pastors and bishops? The women who coerce unsuspecting johns into impregnating them, to destroy marriages and get in on that sweet child support candy?

…Yeah, me neither.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

And in other news, Dean Esmay recently congratulated Amnesty on going MRA. Seems to me that these bozos can’t even keep their exploitation narratives straight…

leftwingfox
5 years ago

@Bina: Ok, wat? How?

Does he consider access to prostitutes to be a man’s right? Does his wife know?

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Ok, wat? How?

Does he consider access to prostitutes to be a man’s right? Does his wife know?

Well, it was a tweet, so I guess he didn’t elucidate much. But I’m guessing that yes, he does think paid-sex-on-demand (or just plain sex on demand) to be a basic Men’s Human Right™.

And now I’ve thrown up in my mouth a little.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago
anemonerosie
5 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger, I can only imagine that getting a stripper for his bar mitzvah was a deeply disturbing experience for the young lad.

Nitram
5 years ago

“They pray on weak vulnerable people…”

That’s odd. I usually pray on a pew or my knees. (Sorry, couldn’t resist)

Tessa
5 years ago

Wow… *sigh* It’s weird how often these guys translate what feminists say as “women can do no wrong and men can do no right” or “women are born victims” or some variation of those. It’s almost as if they don’t actually listen to what’s being said at all… But I don’t think that could be it. No way.

Zeb Berryman
Zeb Berryman
5 years ago

I….What? Buh?

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

Yes, I believe that they do think that a right to a prostitute is their human right. I visited 4chan briefly after Elliot Rodger went on his MRA-inspired killing spree. Some guys there say that one demand they have is to make prostitution socially acceptable. I’m not sure how that can be measured. And I’m not sure why a (tough, rugged, manly) man would demand acceptance from society.

I’m pretty sure that if they got their way, their next demand would be free sex on demand from prostitutes. Then free sex on demand from any woman. And on and on…All because they want to blame others (others who have less power) for their problems.

Daniel Ross
5 years ago

Pandapool, that reaction gif is amazing. Where did you get it?

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Daniel Ross

A random Tumblr post. It makes as much sense there as it does here.

Tessa
5 years ago

Kat:

Yes, I believe that they do think that a right to a prostitute is their human right. I visited 4chan briefly after Elliot Rodger went on his MRA-inspired killing spree. Some guys there say that one demand they have is to make prostitution socially acceptable. I’m not sure how that can be measured. And I’m not sure why a (tough, rugged, manly) man would demand acceptance from society.

I bet you 10 bucks they wanted seeing a prostitute socially acceptable rather than “prostitution”. I doubt they cared much if the sex worker was accepted by society, just that the man not be judged for seeing one.

Olive O'Sudden
Olive O'Sudden
5 years ago

Re: leftwingfox | August 17, 2015 at 8:07 pm

Your brain is a wonderland. <3

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

Hah! 4chan….Every so often that whole “free bleeding” thing turns up with someone STILL trying to make it a thing that is happening elsewhere on the internet. I feel an obligation to anti-troll, set things straight and shut that shit down right quick so it doesn’t spread and infect the entire interwebs any more than have already succumbed!

Xanith
Xanith
5 years ago

Reading this comment and then reading the actual article the comment was left on, it’s like a Venn Diagram of what feminists actually say and what anti-feminist THINK feminists say would be two circles that don’t overlap at all…

ColeYote
ColeYote
5 years ago

> Say no to Amnesty International

Yes, say no to the world’s largest human rights organization. That’ll convince people MRAs aren’t a hate group.

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

There are female and male sex workers (including teens and children) who have been forced into prositution, have addictions, have severe risks of being raped, beaten and killed, etc but to this d*uche it’s the pimps and johns who are victims because reasons.. Love how he says that feminists only care about women and girls but at the same time makes the women and girls the villains and only seems to care about their male clients.

“They pray on weak vulnerable people…”

As a Christian I never pray on weak, vulnerable people I pray next to the bed, at church and once in a while I pray on a person who has consented of course.

This Handle is a Test
This Handle is a Test
5 years ago

Also, this is neither here nor there but since we did “pray vs prey” I thought I’d add that isn’t the John the name for a client and not a pimp (which would be considered, more or less, the boss of the sex worker?).

As of the actual comment itself?

http://www.wordstream.com/images/attention-economy-zoidberg-why.png

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

OK…

To the ‘oppressed’ pimps, go get some job training, maybe try out community college, and find employment based on your own abilities (and ‘pimpin the hoez’ is not a job skill.). Though you may not get to enjoy feeling what it’s like to be the one who is mistreated and exploited, it’s highly likely that you’ll spend a lot of time in jail and/or prison, before death at an early age comes to claim your evil ass.

To the ‘victimized’ johns; have you sat down and really thought about what it is that you’re doing? Having your picture posted on a ‘john shaming’ website after getting caught up in an undercover prostitution sting wouldn’t have happened if you hadn’t been trying to pay for sex in the first place! Do you have a wife? Kids? Have you thought about how your actions affect anyone else at all?! Probably not. You *should* have your picture posted and you need to be sentenced to ‘john school’ if this is your first time being arrested for solicitation of a prostitute – I hear finding out from former sex workers what things are like from their side is very effective in changing the mindset for the majority of men attending, and if you stay out of trouble you can file to have your record expunged. If you can’t stay out of trouble then you can look forward to your face being posted on the ‘john arrests site of shame’ continuously!

To the sex workers: look, you’re in a dangerous world with that job, and it’s not getting any safer out there – pimps, johns, jail, drugs, serial killers – it’s not SAFE! There are people and programs that can help get you headed in a better direction. If you have kids, you gotta consider what it will be like for them if one day you head out to the stroll and never come back, how devastating it would be to have law enforcement come and tell them you’re dead. Those pimps don’t care about any girl or woman, they will use you and keep you hooked on drugs so you don’t know which end is up all you do is make them money. Working for an actual paycheck that you control how it gets spent….you can do it, take that step and realize you are worth more no matter what your past and definitely no matter what some pimp has tried to tell you.

This Handle is a Test
This Handle is a Test
5 years ago

I never knew there was something called “john school” until today. I don’t follow the issue super closely but I figured that I would have heard of that before now, huh.

nightmarelyre
5 years ago
Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@Tessa:
My bad. You’re right, the guys on 4chan want visiting a prostitute to be socially acceptable. I’m sure they care not at all about her being socially accepted. Probably the reverse. It’s the old “I’m a stud; she’s a whore” mentality.

tov01
tov01
5 years ago

This sums up how I feel about this commenter:

Kat
Kat
5 years ago

@ msexceptiontotherule

You put it well.

friendly reader
friendly reader
5 years ago

@msexceptiontotherule: the problem is that our economy doesn’t always provide better-paying safer jobs for people than sex work. That’s what we really don’t want to face as a society: the failure of our current systems to make things equitable enough that everybody can choose the job they’re satisfied with rather than whatever pays the bills that month.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Paying for sex = victim

Selling sex and then getting beaten because the client refuses to pay up or tries to get their money back = vicious harpy, only out to destroy the poor, poor man who paid to fuck her.

Kay.

Fnoicby
Fnoicby
5 years ago

Well that’s ironic. Because a lot of people are up in arms about Amnesty’s position, since not only does it decriminalise for the sex worker but also for pimps and johns. In an early draft there was mention of “johns’ right to privacy” and other rights of johns that shold be considered. That would be why Dean Esmay is getting behind Amnesty on this one

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Thanks for that link, nightmarelyre.

Emma Goldman said that every worker is a prostitute: some of us only sell our bodies while others sell our minds too. For all their affectations, the folk of 4chan seem light years away from actual anarchism like Goldman’s.

As for the original post: Voltaire said it best.

I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: ‘O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.’ And God granted it.

Cerberus
Cerberus
5 years ago

Kat-

I’m pretty sure they’d prefer the sex workers to still be stigmatized as that way they can still get away with mistreating them and viewing them as a subhuman category. Sex workers genuinely supported by general culture would mean that they’d have to treat a sex worker with just as much humanity as any other person and that’s something that this type of bad john has nightmares about.

Fruitloopsie-

As best as I can figure, the way that women in sex work are “abusing” men is through that bullshit accepting my money for work is robbing me crap. So, a sex worker taking payment for the service they provide is abusing men because she actually keeps the money without paying free sex to anyone who wanders past (because clearly by being a sex worker she has consented to sex with anyone for free) and doesn’t actually think the johns are wonderful god penises.*

*Having known a fair share of sex workers at this point, I can say rather definitively that most every sex worker thinks these types of entitled johns are complete shitheels.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

Guys, the proper term is “sex worker” as defined by actual sex workers. “Prostitutes”, “whores”, etc. are slurs. Please use “sex worker” when talking about sex workers please.

CCD
CCD
5 years ago

Yes, because prostitutes drive around and pick out men just standing on the street, to have sex with, for the men’s money, and the men are powerless to resist… oh, and it’s totally the johns who get murdered the most, in these exchanges. Nevermind that the homicide rate of sex workers in the USA is more than 20 times that of men, on average. That includes legal sex workers, and female sex workers are more likely to be homicide victims over male sex workers.

GrumpyOldSocialJusticeMangina

The problem comes when you start talking about trafficked women, like the girls from Tenancingo, Mexico, who are brought to brothels in New York where girls as young as 14 are forced to service as many as 60 men a day. Referring to these girls as “sex workers” would seem to be taking a euphemism and pushing it to totally ridiculous lengths. They are actually — to use appropriate words — slaves and victims of torture, and as far as I know, slavery and torture are almost universally regarded as crimes against humanity. And for many of those for whom sex work is at least some degree a choice originating in economic necessity, again referring to them as sex workers tends to euphemize and therefore legitimize their systematic exploitation. Nobody (with a heart, that is) wants to stigmatize the women who may have little or no choice about their work, or make their lives harder than they already are, but the idea of decriminalizing pimps and johns seems extremely repellent to me, and any attempt to reduce the social condemnation of pimps and johns seems like terrible policy.
Prostitution has been with us for most of recorded history, and eradicating it is a nearly impossible task. And since it probably can’t be eradicated in the foreseeable future, we need to work to improve the lives of prostituted women (and men) — this is the term preferred by those who want to see the eventual abolition of sex work, because it emphasizes that a bad thing is being done to the workers, whether by outright compulsion and trafficking or by lack of suitable economic alternatives.
Neither group — abolitionists or legalizers — believes that the term “prostitute” is acceptable. The disagreement is whether “sex worker” or “prostituted woman” is more accurate.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Grumpy

Is that what actual sex workers say or people’s opinion who aren’t sex workers say?

lolo
lolo
5 years ago

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2014/02/11960/

The issue with the term sex worker is that is normally used to erase trafficked women, and to imply that it is a choice (which for most women it isn’t). The reality is that the terms sex worker, prostitute, prostituted woman, trafficked woman, etc, all have different continuations.

If the women is trafficked or being prostituted using the term sex worker makes her seem a willing participant and would not be accurate.

gosuamakenatek
gosuamakenatek
5 years ago

“They pray on weak vulnerable people who need help desperately”

Uh…people who desperately need help getting off?
All this “logic” could apply equally to the porn and fleshlight industries, they “pray” on weak and vulnerable men to the exact same degree (which is none), but I have a feeling he doesn’t have such a problem with them. In fact I’d bet every cent I own that he’s a big fan.

xodima
5 years ago

@Fnoicby Oh exactly. It’s disturbing to see how many people, including some self-proclaimed feminists are looking at this subject as how it benefits the johns. The passage that sex -Or, you know, the right to use another human being’s body regardless of their desire to let you- was a human right is sickening. It actually makes me feel like there are some sentiments in Amnesty’s hierarchy that aren’t on board with reality.

I know we have commenters on both sides of the New Zealand vs Nordic model but when it comes to MRAs, they are certain to follow either the puritanical model to keep men in absolute power over poor and marginalized women, or some sick legally protected rape.
Whatever we do, it should be with absolute 100% consideration for the workers who are most vulnerable in all of this. Johns literally don’t matter. Their rights, their feels, their comfort is all irrelevant.

katz
katz
5 years ago

Yeah, sounds like Tom Martin…

Amnesty failed to reject prostitution in all its forms.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@GOSJM:

Sex trafficking (and its converse, sex tourism) are indeed real things, and terrible things at that. However, they are different from non-sexual forced labour only in that the labour which is forced from its victims is sexual rather than, say, working in a textile sweatshop.

In Britain, many trafficked people work in agriculture. Many free people work in agriculture too; some because they enjoy it, others because it’s convenient for where they live or because they like the hours. The fact that slave labour is used at all is appalling and is an indictment of the economic system and social system in which we live; but it should not taint our opinion of free people who choose to do the same work willingly.

I think a lot of opposition to sex work comes from people pedestalising women’s sexuality and seeing it as somehow the property of her future male partners rather than something uniquely hers, to be used as she likes.

xodima
5 years ago

@EJ While trafficked labor is reprehensible in all of its forms, trafficked sex workers often face, along with powerlessness and poor living conditions, rape. Constant rape and torture by violent men who need to be put in prison. People who traffic women for sex are absolutely inconsiderate of the lives of the women involved. Trafficked textile workers face much less violence because serving violent and hateful fantasies is not part of their job. Managers don’t often feel the need to abuse those workers because they just want them to work, whereas the ruination of sex workers physically, mentally, and so forth are desired by their clients.

To be honest, I don’t think, for example, anyone is crticizing the porn actresses or cam models (Who, yes, are often abused, and fit the next category) for what is happening to the trafficked women on the street. For whatever strange reason, it feels we can’t have seperate conversations about women who chose and enjoy sexual labor, women who are economically, -sometimes physically and psychologically- forced into their job, and the johns/pimps who abuse the latter.

Opposition to sex work comes from religious puritans who think women should be reserved for their future husband.

HOWEVER, feminist opposition, such as to fully legalizing sexual exploitation of those working the streets, comes from a concern with those at the lowest points of power, I think. I’m sure there are very kindhearted people on both sides of the issue who think they are doing their best for everyone, but I think there is some nuance that needs to be addressed before the conversation can go forward.

Tyra Lith
Tyra Lith
5 years ago

Seconding Grumpy. Thank you for explaining it so well.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

@xodima:
I agree with you that the situation of trafficked sex workers is deplorable. I am not aware of the rape statistics amongst trafficked agricultural or domestic workers (although I’d be surprised if it were zero); however oppression olympic events serve nobody. My apologies if I came across as setting up an oppression olympics or minimising the very real brutality of that situation.

My understanding is that the exploitation of sex workers needs to be understood as an intersection of the wider exploitation of women and the wider exploitation of workers. If one sees it purely as a unique and reprehensible thing, one cannot affect wider change.

That said, I know uncomfortably little about it except from what I’ve learned from listening to others; given my gender and economic status I am not in a position to do anything more than that, so would gladly learn from those who know more.

rugbyyogi
5 years ago

Yeah, I think that rape is a common experience of other trafficked people – including agricultural and textile workers and managers (overseers/ gang masters) do abuse them in other ways, too. But obviously they are not raped as frequently as trafficked sex slaves, because they have to get other stuff done…like sewing or picking. The life of a slave sucks hard no matter what industry, but there isn’t the same stigma following them if they get out.

I have very mixed feelings about legalisation of sex work. There’s a recent paper come out from Dr Catherine Hakim which basically says it will always be around because men have twice as much sexual desire as women… so might as well legalise it to make it safer for everyone. That skeeves me out a little, but I dunno… I get the harm minimisation argument, but I think that we have enough trouble properly regulating non-stigmatised ‘low-value’* work so that it’s safe and fair for workers – so I have trouble believing that stigmatised work like sex work could ever be properly regulated.

msexceptiontotherule
msexceptiontotherule
5 years ago

Whether they walk the track, go to a motel and get a room to set up the laptop and arrange their dates online through sites like craigslist etc, work in a brothel or do outcall ‘high class’ escorting, we should be doing more to come up with alternative work options and provide reasonable means to get whatever skills they need to get safer jobs that pay enough to keep them from going back to sex work.

I’m not opposed to well-regulated (for health, safety, and fair labor standards) legal sex work such as there is at brothels, as long as the workers want to be there – I worry that there might be an increase how many are sex trafficked in as it is to just legalize sex work without fully committing to really regulating a professional brothel-type industry properly. That and unfortunately the biggest issue is that there are a lot of people who will object most strenuously to just the idea of making sex work legal in any capacity.

If johns went to legalized sex industry workers instead of trying to solicit curbside and online I wouldn’t see a need to post their photo on the john site o-shaming when they get busted. I don’t have any sympathy for the pleading about not wanting to put the wife and kids into a bad spot because they depend on his income – if he really cared about all that then he wouldn’t be out doing something that could get him arrested like he was! If his reputation in the community was so important then maybe he shouldn’t have been trying to solicit sex from one of the ladies curbside!

Pimps are as awful as the people who run trafficking operations or have key positions within the businesses that the traffickers are supplying the workforce to. The brutal treatment they employ to control their victims would be bad enough, but keeping whatever money is earned by the victims, taking identification documents and passports, introducing drugs so they can force compliance by withholding what they need to “get well”…If the pimps, traffickers and their business affiliates could be locked up somewhere that they’d never get out of alive, I’d be ok with that. Trading their lives in order to help make changes to the current system so that their victims would have the kinds of services and opportunities in safer occupations offering wages they can support themselves and any children with…I wouldn’t have a problem making such a trade.

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