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Perplexing MRA Meme of the Day: “Saying She’s Not a Real Feminist is Like Playing Russian Roulette”

Uh, what?
Uh, what?

So I found the meme above on the Twitter, posted by some FeMRA I’ve never heard of but who for some reason has me blocked.

I’m stumped. A little reverse-image search shows that the pic is a still from a K-Pop video. Which … doesn’t really help me to make sense of this at all.

Any guesses?

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Kasey Weird
5 years ago

Whoa. So, I guess this person has picked up on the fact that in feminist spheres, radfems/TERFs and “White Feminism” get called out as not good/not real feminism, and the meme is just telling MRAs not to trust that those people are therefore safe, ’cause their bad/fake feminism is really still too feminist?

Except, that implies way more awareness of internal feminist politics for me to really strongly believe that’s what’s going on here? I just don’t have another interpretation.

andiexist
andiexist
5 years ago

I… think they’re saying feminists are the next mass shooters?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Nope, beyond me. So I’ll just stick up a Russian roulette related vid:

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

My best guess:

“When feminists say that a particular woman with extremist views is not a true feminist, it disguises who the dangerous feminists are. You never know when a woman will pop up with an extreme view that feminists actually endorse, and since feminists control the world, those extreme views will cause harm.”

… yeah… my best is not great.

It sorta makes sense in a vague sort of way. Maybe. Kinda.

Woman: “Kill all men!”
MRAs: “Ahh, we better do something!”
Feminist: “Don’t worry, she’s not a real feminist.”
MRAs: “Phew.”

Woman: “Enslave all men!”
MRAs: “Ahh, we better do something!”
Feminist: “Not a feminist.”
MRAs: “Oh good.”

Woman: “Treat women as legitimate as men in all sectors of society, abolish gender roles, and dismantle the patriarchy!”
MRAs: “Ahh, we better do something?”
Feminist: “…”
MRAs: “…”
Feminist: “Totes a feminist.”
MRAs: “AAAHHHHHHHHH!”

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

I think it’s trying to turn Schrödinger’s Rapist around to be Schrödinger’s SEEKRIT FEMINAZI!!!

Michael Healy
Michael Healy
5 years ago

They saw some people arguing about white feminism and filtered it through MRA logic?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

We need some more basic info to decrypt this.

Who’s meant to be doing the ‘saying’? Feminists, MRAs?

Tanya
5 years ago

Is she holding the gun to her own head, or is that the arm/hand of another woman?

me and not you
me and not you
5 years ago

I think that kirby might be right? Like… the argument that you can’t ignore internet threats because it’s not all just trolls, some people actually do the shit they talk about?

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Kirby’s explanation makes sense. Although I’m perplexed as to why they’re grouping “white feminists” together with radfems. What does that particular group have in common, other than (mostly) having X chromosomes?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

If it’s supposed to be about intersectional feminists disowning non-intersectional feminists… That doesn’t work in the context of the metaphor. Unlike MRAs who handwave the worst of the worst with “No real MRA” then welcome them back the moment the heat’s off, we actually do disown them, which means they’re out of the metaphorical barrel, which means they can’t be the metaphorical bullet. Unless you’re using two guns, I suppose, but then it’s not Russian roulette anymore.

Why am I overthinking this. MRAs just suck at metaphors.

Sarity
5 years ago

Tough call. I’ll guess it’s a stupid way of saying when you dismiss or disagree with an extremist statement/viewpoint that an MRA presents as feminist gospel, said statement/viewpoint JUST MIGHT be sourced from an actual old-timey radical feminist you’ve never heard of. And hence… damaging to you somehow.

TGuerrant
TGuerrant
5 years ago

It’s saying it’s safe for the dudebros to date Tink, but not PInk.

(Tink is not happy about this.)

Scarlettathena
5 years ago

Captain obvious alert! A meme should not generate this much thinking and discussion!

It should be grokked quickly and elicit a nod or chuckle or something similar.

Can we send the MRM mememakers to memeschool?

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

@EJ (The Other One):

The twitter account appears to belong to a black ex-feminist. Who retweets everything related to gamergate and #notyourshield. Makes sense to specifically go after “white” feminism along with “radical.”

jpageusmc
5 years ago

@Kirby

Loved your post! Great examples, too!

I’ve been staring at this train wreck trying to decipher it (years of multiple foreign language study is not making a dent) for way longer than I’d like to admit, but finally I’ll just go with the simplest one I could come up with. Maybe they’re saying that if they (MRA-types) were to go around blanket-calling women who identify as feminists “not real feminists,” 1 in 6 will, ahem, take a little of the top.

But really, let me close in commenting on how god-awfully this is worded/constructed/etc. At least if you’re going to take the time and half-think up a “clever” Russian roulette meme, run that trash through like a 2nd party so the both of you can at least generate something comprehensible.

Luzbelitx - from my phone
Luzbelitx - from my phone
5 years ago

Maybe the message is “feminism makes no sense to me”?

Except that’s the starting point for all memeMRAs…

@Scarlet

Can you imagine memeMRAs in memeschool?

They would run out screaming “Femspiracyyyyy!” as soon as memeteacher states that words mean things…

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

@jpageusmc:

Unfortunately, I don’t think that quite works… Have you ever seen an MRA back down from calling a woman they don’t like a feminist? 😛

berdache from a previous life

A sexbot developed consciousness but was owned by a PUA and thought this made sense as a first communication? Much like the AI in Hitchhiker’s thought Ford Prefect was a good human name?

jpageusmc
5 years ago

@Kirby

No, that’s exactly it! But let’s say the MRAs have some ridiculous,super-stereotypical, exaggerated arch-feminist ideal. Now, most feminists don’t fit that mold of course. But then there’s that 1 in 6, that gets called “not a real feminist” and just starts an epic shitstorm (which is their fear of course).

Fruitloopsie
Fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Don’t argue with feminists and don’t underestimate them because you never know which one is a ticking time bomb killer? I don’t know.

Natalie
Natalie
5 years ago

Thought you’d like this thread – maybe you want to write a post about it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3g0pwl/meta_cunts/

It’s the classic: “let’s not do x, y, z because it looks like we’re misogynist. Not that we think that x, y, z makes us misogynist, but other people seem to think so.”

Contradictory replies range from:

“nothing wrong with x, y, z!”

“only imposters come here and use x, y, z”

“x, y, z is the truth!”

1 reply saying that x, y, z is misogynist and shouldn’t be used in serious discourse. Maybe there’s hope for these guys?

Nah.

Ellesar
Ellesar
5 years ago

No, I’ve got nothing – I’ve pondered a bit and it still makes no sense! Unless they are suggesting that being a white radical feminist is the same as being dead. Which still makes no sense.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

I think it’s a warning to any man who would take any woman’s pronouncement ‘I’m not feminist’ seriously. Because even if she claims to disavow feminism, she may be — and most likely is — still infected by it.

Fnoicby
Fnoicby
5 years ago

Well it makes perfect sense if you keep in mind that 99.9% of manosphere memes are pure projection. If any manosphere type does something terrible (hello, Eliot Rodger) MRA’s etcetera are quick to distance themselves. Even though the ideologies expressed are practically identical and the connection is clear to anyone with half a brain.

Who’s a fan of labeling any woman who says anything they dislike a “feminist”? And then actual feminists point out that whatever this woman said or did had absolutely nothing to do with feminism. But manospherians think feminists are just playing the same stupid game that they do of denying the obvious. They believe everybody is as disingenuous as they are.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

OT:

Roosh is desperate:

http://www.donotlink.com/g8yb

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I think it’s saying that a lot of women call Taylor Swift not a real feminist as a diversion tactic. Because she is actually our feminist super spy Robot Overlord made by SarkeesianCorp.

By that, I mean she’s Katie.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

EJ (The Other One) | August 6, 2015 at 11:34 am
Kirby’s explanation makes sense. Although I’m perplexed as to why they’re grouping “white feminists” together with radfems. What does that particular group have in common, other than (mostly) having X chromosomes?

Well, white feminists aren’t intersectional. At all. Their only concern is the welfare of cishet middle-class (Usually US citizen) white women.

That isn’t to say it’s totally evil (At least, not as bad as radfems), since it’s the feminism I and many others have started with, but some feminists tend not to grow beyond the point of White Feminism and use it to preach over women of color, transwomen, poor women, and queer women, whereas the rest of us grew the fuck up and realized that we weren’t the center of feminism’s universe, and got intersectional.

I can totally understand why a lot of women of color (specifically black women), have moved away from feminism with this kind of feminist lurking in there, and have created Womanism. What we have to do is support them and be their allies in their struggles.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

@PI

I think EJ meant that the other way around – racist white feminism being worse than radical feminism (radical feminism refers to much more than just the gross TERFs and SWERFs, but I’ll leave it to the radfems here to explain further).

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Paradoxy

I stuck this up on the old open thread but it probably got buried. You may find it interesting in view of your comments. [It’s a pretty interesting article anyway] –

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/06/more-civil-rights-than-others-everybody-loses

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

Re: radfems

I guess I am one of them, since I believe any form of feminism is radical in itself (yes, even white feminism would turn patriarchy upside down if it succeeded)?

What other type of feminism is there that is not radical?

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs | August 6, 2015 at 2:34 pm
@PI

I think EJ meant that the other way around – racist white feminism being worse than radical feminism (radical feminism refers to much more than just the gross TERFs and SWERFs, but I’ll leave it to the radfems here to explain further).

Ah. Well then.

But at the end of the day, TERFs, SWERFS, and White Feminists are all excluding people out of spaces they have every right to be in, no? So, why should it matter if it’s transgendered people, sex workers, or women of color? They’re all being excluded (for different reasons, but my point stands that feminism should be a place where the aforementioned groups can all find safe haven).

Alan Robertshaw | August 6, 2015 at 2:40 pm
@ Paradoxy

I stuck this up on the old open thread but it probably got buried. You may find it interesting in view of your comments. [It’s a pretty interesting article anyway] –

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/06/more-civil-rights-than-others-everybody-loses

That’s a pretty good article, and it does a pretty good job of covering that age-old problem of overcoming one’s own privilege, despite being “well-meaning”. Thanks.

Fnoicby
Fnoicby
5 years ago

I lean towards radfem as well and I don’t see why it would be a bad thing. Unless the term is becoming synonymous with terms like TERF and the like.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

This could be another interesting symposium on the meaning of words.

If we go down the dictionary route then of course radical (whether as noun or adjective) just means a total paradigm shift; which perhaps a feminist society would be.

The everyday meaning though seems to imply some sort of extremism and it would be a sad world if wanting equality was considered an extreme view. That arguably though is the world some people live in.

Another position might be just to let people both identify as they wish and let them choose what the word means; the term’s malleable enough for that anyway, as this thread is starting to demonstrate.

Fnoicby
Fnoicby
5 years ago

@Alan sadly the older I get, the more radical the idea of true gender equality seems to me. But to me “radfem” doesn’t elicit the picture of extremism that it used to conjure up. The more radfem ideas I come across the more I realize there are a lot of really fascinating issues being debated in those circles. But I guess to others the term conjures whatever their encounters have been, perhaps negative (I do tend to toss out of my mind particularly extreme or problematic viewpoints I’ve come across, which to me are fewer than the positive/interesting ones).

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

@PI

Oh, absolutely! As far as I’m concerned, TERFs, SWERFs and racist white feminists are all no better than MRAs. =P I just meant EJ was only talking about non-exclusionary radfems, and how it was weird for the meme to conflate non-exclusionary with exclusionary. ^^; Apologies for wording myself badly, need coffee.

… If the meme was conflating them. It’s even worse at making its point than I am right now.

freemage
5 years ago

RadFem is one of those things that no one seems to really have an agreed-upon definition of, certainly not the people who use it.

Anti-feminists pretty much use it as a generic label for anyone who is actually remotely feminist in their leanings. I think if you’re more ‘radical’ than Christina Hoff Summers, you qualify by these nincompoops’ reasoning.

Feminists who don’t self-identify as radfems usually seem to use it as an alternative to TERFs, or at least to the specific variety of gender-analysis that might lead to becoming a TERF. (Ie, the ones who say things like, “Since gender is JUST a social construct, why do we need to worry about transgender folks at all?”–ignoring the very real fact that ‘social constructs’ are all around us, affect our lives immeasurably, and so must be dealt with as-is, much as we have to deal with racism even though race is also a social construct.)

Those feminists I’ve seen who do identify as RadFems and aren’t TERFs are usually just particularly vocal and aggressive–and that’s not a bad thing.

I have seen hints that some self-identified RadFems make the same error that some anti-capitalsts do, assuming that eliminating one axis of privilege will cause the entire realignment of society to create an egalitarian utopia. (There’s a difference between, “This is the dominant social justice fight today,” and “This is the only social justice fight that matters at all.”) It’s essentially a rejection of the idea of intersectionality. That said, I can’t think of any really concrete examples of such.

Lagoon
Lagoon
5 years ago

@Aunt Edna

What the heck is he even talking about? I haven’t really kept up with him or his nonsense, other than what I’ve read here.

As for that meme, it seems like the same ol same ol “women are untrustworthy and also ugly if they’re feminists” sort of garbage.

P.S. First time poster, just wanted to say before I saw this blog I was legit afraid that a large amount of guys believed this way, and I almost started to internalize the hatred they spout. Thanks to everybody for showing me there is hope for humanity 🙂

indifferentsky
5 years ago

I haven’t read the comments yet, but I believe it’s saying that when someone makes comments that sound dangerous and maybe includes #killallmen, and people say “that person is not a real feminist”… that it’s dangerous because that “not a real feminist” person
might do something awful.

However, it makes no sense because even if we all pointed to the most radical of feminists and said YES, they are “real” feminists, that would not change if someone did or did not do something violent.

Also in light of misogyny violence, this is also ridiculous.

bekabot
5 years ago

I think indifferentsky is right, and I also think this is the most tortuous/awkward version of a hypothetical I’ve ever encountered, which is saying something.

Mewens
Mewens
5 years ago

Clearly, a reference to “Deerhunter.”

This is actually about Nixon’s secret plan to win in Vietnam. I’m stunned no one else is seeing this.

indifferentsky
5 years ago

My ability to speak gibberish has finally come in handy.

lightcastle
lightcastle
5 years ago

freemage, I would say there are people who self identify RadFem as that particular gender analysis you mention in option two (whether or not they self-identify or are ascribed identity as others as any of the ERFs.). In fact, I can’t think of anyone who self-identifies as RadFem who doesn’t embrace that analysis on some level, personally. I’ve never seen someone self identify as RadFem just because they are “vocal and aggressive”, personally.

As for your last paragraph, I think lots of people conflate “This is the most dominant social justice fight today” and “This is the only social justice fight that matters at all.” So you get people who reject intersectionality due to that and you get people who take anyone who expresses the first to obviously REALLY be the second and attacks them accordingly.)

raysa
raysa
5 years ago

MRA types spout a whole bunch of asinine stuff, and as long as it sounds feminist – hatey enough, they all say “oh, yep, totally right on.”

This meme doesn’t make sense to me, but I don’t have their woman – hatey mindset.

But, this meme has an attractive woman, a gun, a general vibe of violence, and an attribution of that violence to a man – hatey looking female, so it has all of the things that make an MRA person go “OH, YEAH, TOTALLY COOL AND DEEP, IT BE SO TRUTHY. ”

Just a guess.

jpageusmc
5 years ago
Reply to  Mewens

@Mewens

Nice reference! Classic movie! Also lol @ Nixon.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Since this is from a FeMRA, I think she’s trying to say “All feminists are naaaaasty, so pick ME, boys!”

Za_Docta
Za_Docta
5 years ago

I think she’s saying that you never know where feminists are hiding. They’ve inserted several sleeper agents into feMRA circles, Manchurian Candidate-style.
We feminists are basically Body Snatchers, right?

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

@Kasey

I think I agree with you in everything you said.

@Alan

I like the symposium thing, sound so serious and important…

@SFHC

I will word this carefully, but please don’t take this as questioning your position, I only intend to explain how it works in my head, and share some experiences.

That said, I usually avoid comparing any branch of feminism to MRAs.

This is not to say we tolerate racism, transexism and classism, on the contratry I think they must be questioned and opposed.

I just can’t go as far as calling them “just like MRAs” (or “no better than them” or etc).

MRAs don’t fight for anything no anyone, they won’t even move a finger for themselves.

I think that’s an essential difference. I think even feMRAs don’t sink to the same level, as horrible as they are and as convinced as they seem. They hurt and twist themselves in ways MRAs never will, or care, and they experience sexist violence all the same, as much in denial as they are.

The only group I would actually compare to MRAs would be male TERFs, if such a thing exist. Those would benefit from violence without ever taking the risk of being on the receiving end.

Now, if that made any sense, this is where it comes from:

I live in a land which was devastated by colonization. Maybe it wasn’t the most peaceful place on Earth before, but the invasion meant the beginning of a genocide that hasn’t actually stopped yet.

The best we could do was build a very, very tender democracy and shift the course a just a tiny bit. Outside of it, the ruling elites destroy anything they can’t control, and always have.

So perhaps I put a very strong emphasis on debate despite the difference, even with subjects as unacceptable as racism and transphobia. Because the other option is war and blood and we know we’re in the losing side already.

I think it works similar with Patriarchy: we’re cooked. We fucking know that.

What I feel I share with all women, feminist or otherwise, is a fundamental experience of violence (It may be shaped by other forms of violence, hence intersectionality). And this includes all of us, even those who work and fight against us.

Whatever the position they choose, and unlike men, they are all still exposed to the same violence as ourselves. And if we want to take the system of violence down, I believe we need them.

In what experience I gathered as a political activist in the past few years, I very quickly realized you can’t build power without consensus, and we don’t have a lot of people on our side, compared to the career politicians who want everything to stay the same.

So, in a world where global democracy is still in its early development, while global power is organized and efficient, we need to value those who are willing to play the game of democracy, even with horrible views and values.

Because our enemies are huge and common, and we can fight each other in certain arenas, and fight together against the biggest enemies in another. I believe it’s possible and legitimate.

But then, maybe I’m an idealist, and the fight for power didn’t break me yet. I’ll check back in a decade or so.

lightcastle
lightcastle
5 years ago

@Aunt Edna – Actually, he seems to have a new venue, seems to have a meetup planned tonight here in Mtl (which means he did successfully cross the border), and has induced at least two of the women leading the petition and (theoretical) protest against him to take all their instagram, model mayhem, and couchsurfing accounts private or close/cancel them.

I’ve heard nothing about there still being a protest for the event Saturday. There is a rumoured private planning group, but since they are now too suspicious to accept new people, I don’t see how they will coordinate anything significant. At best there will be a last-minute note but unless it passes by word of mouth, I won’t hear of it.

Sadly, at this point, it seems Roosh is going to “win” the Montreal confrontation, although there has been good media buzz and perhaps Toronto will have a more organized/effective protest.

Dodom
Dodom
5 years ago

I think this is about the MRAs who call themselves feminists because they want to abuse women “for their own good”.
By example, using disproportionate force in self-defense/getting the last word if a woman caused a man to feel threatened is “feminist” because it’s “holding women accountable like adults”.
I’ve seen some MRAs take offense in those claims being called out as not feminist.

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