Open Thread for Non-Personal Stuff: Late July 2015 Splashy Splashy Edition

@KL That sucks. I don’t post much on Facebook, simply because there is something about it that is a bit on the exhibitionist/sanctimonious side, like “hey folks, here’s an article about a given topic that I think you should all read”. Don’t get me wrong, I do it from time to time, but ultimately, in the large scheme of things, I don’t think that people stop by often to read these articles, and even less frequently, actually are convinced enough to make a change unless it’s some sort of personal thing, like changing one’s diet to eat less sugar or something like that. I also keep my politics to myself by and in large.

I sometimes will reply to a particular outrageous comment on youtube, typically by people who claim to be supremely logical even as their comment is so full of illogic that a grade school child could take the argument apart if it was presented to them. I simply point out some of the fallacies they commit and, without fail, their response is for them to completely fly off the handle and/or engage in diversionary tactics. I can’t help but think that a large part of it is the whole “losing face” dynamic that happens when someone demonstrates that you’re wrong about something, and given that debate is inherently a confrontation, that means admitting defeat to an opponent. There is also the issue that one rarely engages a belief in isolation, but that the belief is part of an ideological framework and admitting that the belief is wrong creates cognitive dissonance which is uncomfortable.

Part of me can’t help but think that the best way to change minds is incremental and more along the lines of a conversation between two people who are discussing over drinks at a bar, not trying to show up one another, but simply talking about things in general in a “what’s wrong with the world/how can it be fixed” kind of way. Because, ultimately, minds will have to be changed.

I originally accidentally posted that comment about the Trump story in the Cosby thread by mistake. Now it won’t let me post in that thread again. This computer is really showing signs of dysfunction.

I got to visit and play games with some friends I haven’t laid eyes on in a year this past weekend! Woohoo! And we might start doing it regular-like, too.

Woohoo, Falconer! Regular gaming sessions are always awesome.

I was thinking that we have a lot of gamers and suchlike here on WHTM; forming some sort of online gaming massive for the commentariat might be great.

Re 29% margins of support, I refer you to the (sadly very ableistly titled) also known as the Keyes Factor.

Well, there’s already a Steam group; I dunno about tabletop.

I’m in the Steam group (under a different username) but I don’t generally do multiplayer video games. I play mostly tabletop games now as it is.

re:Christian patriarchy

My first major relationship was with someone who is now big into the Christian patriarchy thing. What I find especially sad about it is that they seriously can’t understand why people would have a problem with it. (Their more-or-less exact words “I don’t understand why people judge me for submitting to my husband”)

They had those inclinations when I knew them, but that attitude was so far from how I grew up* that I didn’t understand what they meant when they talked about how they wanted their life to turn out. Part of it was that it didn’t occur to them that their experience wasn’t universal.

It doesn’t make me angry, just sad that people seem to perceive every human relationship as hierarchical.

*I heard things like “Marriage is an institution designed to perpetuate women’s economic dependency on men” on a fairly regular basis while growing up.

Part of me can’t help but think that the best way to change minds is incremental and more along the lines of a conversation between two people who are discussing over drinks at a bar, not trying to show up one another, but simply talking about things in general in a “what’s wrong with the world/how can it be fixed” kind of way. Because, ultimately, minds will have to be changed.

Absolutely. One of the reasons I participate in comments (at The Guardian and other places) is that you need to be part of repeated iterations of the same message.

A long time ago I remember one of my union mates returning from an office training session about public information campaigns. One speaker was from the PR/advertising industry. He’d pointed out that the industry works on the basis that people won’t remember the name of a product or a company until they’ve seen it at least 23 times (I think that was the number). Thereafter, they might or might not take in the message you’re trying to get across.

And there we were thinking we’d been doing such a good job keeping flyers on noticeboards and issuing newsletters and so on every few weeks. No wonder members were saying that we weren’t informing them. We were well behind the game. They didn’t even remember that we’d given them stuff, let alone what was in it.

The important thing is not to be upset or too concerned that someone online or in conversation won’t immediately acknowledge that they were wrong. It takes time and repeated exposure for them to absorb what you, and others, are saying. More importantly, time needs to pass for them to be able to kid themselves that they came to that viewpoint all by themselves. No need to rub it in that they were wrong 6 days, weeks or months ago or however long it took.

Can’t edit the post, but the big image is comprised of portraits of cats’ heads, as opposed to his funny-animal works like this one:

@mildlymagnificent

I like the way you see it.

I don’t think I fully agree, but you’re making very good points and I’ll keep them in mind.

@brian

Mammoth Hunters /MBZ/, it looks like, though it appears to be for regular posters only.

I don’t really use Steam, but I wish there was a whtm or SJW WoW guild. I’m in a guild called “Fight like a Girl” which I really like, but they’re just normal people who aren’t obsessed with macho masculinity, not evil SJWs like I would prefer. 😉

WWTH, that’s a lovely phrase for him, you’re right.

I’m not sure if this is the right place for it, but I have a question that I hope people who know more about gender than I do can answer:
It’s about trans people; let’s use Caitlyn Jenner as an example, because she’s been in the news recently. Obviously if I’m talking about her now, I’d call her ‘her’ and use the name ‘Caitlyn’. But if I’m talking about her when she was a runner or whatever it was, and was called ‘Bruce’ and was (at least publically) identifying as male, do I refer to her as Bruce or Caitlyn, and do I say ‘he’ or ‘she’?
I’ve been told by one of my trans* friends that you should use whatever names and pronouns the person expresses a preference for, and that seems like common courtesy. I can easily do that with people I know, because they’ll make it clear. But I’m unlikely ever to meet Jenner, or Chelsea Manning or Lana Wachowski, so I’m a little unclear on the protocol.