As promised, here is the new and I think improved comments policy.
It’s a bit long, but that’s in part because I’ve included sections that are designed to hopefully eliminate some of the contentious and often repetitive debates that have erupted in the past over the issue of ableism — in particular the use of words like “crazy” and “psycho” and the like. In the future, I am hoping that we can simply link new commenters to the policy (in particular, the “notes on ‘crazy'”) section and avoid a lot of the drama.
This policy is stricter towards those who “dig in” and insist on using problematic terms even though they’ve been informed of the rules about them; if they’ve been linked to the comments policy and persist in arguing or behaving badly, they will be banned. I’m also asking regulars to rein in their language in criticizing first-time offenders, and to not argue back with them if they persist. (There’s not much point to it, because offenders who persist will be banned.)
Not all of the changes and additions to the comments policy are in response to the ableism debates; I’ve also taken into consideration other controversies here, as well as comments policies on other blogs and broader discussions online about the best ways to moderate sites.
One other change: I will also put regular reminders in posts that all new commenters should read the comments policy before posting.
I am very much cognizant that many people who regularly read this blog — some of them who comment here regularly, some of whom are lurkers or only occasional commenters — are frustrated by the flame wars that have erupted here from time to time. I am frustrated as well, and troubled by the personal attacks I’ve seen in these discussions, directed not at trolls but at other commenters here in good faith.
I hope this new comment policy can end some of these flame wars before they start. If it doesn’t, I will (reluctantly) have to resort to shutting threads down and even suspending some commenters.
So here is the new comments policy. Discuss. Suggest improvements. Be civil.
Welcome prospective commenters!
Unmoderated internet forums quickly become shitheaps, so we have a few rules here. One thing to remember right off the bat: this is a feminist blog, designed (mostly) for a feminist audience. You don’t have to be a particular kind of feminist to post here, or even a feminist at all, but you do need to keep this in mind.
First comments from new commenters – or old commenters changing their name – automatically go to moderation. Regardless of your politics, if you start off here with a jerky or tediously argumentative comment, or if you trigger some other red flag for me, your first comment will never see the light of day.
MRAs, MGTOWs, PUAs, Red Pillers, “Equalists,” #GamerGaters and the like: you will be allowed to post here, if your first comment is amusing and/or not especially egregious, and if you more-or-less behave.
But I reserve the right to revoke your posting privileges at any time for any reason. You have a right to your opinions, but you don’t have a right to our attention. I am especially not interested in hearing your thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian (or some other target of angry dude harassment online).
Oh, and I sometimes set aside threads here as “no troll, no MRA” threads. If you post in one of them, even politely, you will be banned.
If you’re NOT an MRA or a troll, welcome!
You’re who this blog is really meant for. The comments too, provided you can participate in a generally constructive manner and can treat those you disagree with here with a certain degree of respect. Snark is fine; attacks and accusations and namecalling, not so much.
If someone – whether a troll or a regular commenter — is acting badly enough to possibly warrant a suspension or ban, EMAIL ME OR THE MODS. That’s the fastest and most effective way to get it taken care of.
Some slightly more specific guidelines.
No bigotry (misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, body shaming, and so forth). No slurs. I’ve put the worst ones in the mod filter, so comments containing them won’t appear. If you want to discuss someone else’s use of a slur, disguise the word so your comment won’t get caught by the filter – though if you do this as a “clever” way to use a slur yourself, you may well find yourself banned.
No threats or violent comments. That includes telling someone to “die in a fire” or remarking that so-and-so would probably be better off dead. This rule is in effect even when you are talking about vile misogynistic shitbags.
No gratuitously nasty personal attacks. Yes, discussions can sometimes get a bit contentious. You’re not required to be perfectly nice all the time. Just don’t be a total asshole. And don’t drag your disagreements with someone into every thread.
No doxxing or posting of personal identifying information. Don’t spread rumors or speculate without evidence on the possible criminal activity of anyone else, whether this is another commenter or a misogynistic shitbag.
No rape apologism, pedo apologism, victim blaming, and so forth.
Don’t misgender anyone. If you do it accidentally, apologize and get it right the next time. If you do it deliberately, you’re out.
Don’t attack anyone for their sexual preferences or kinks, so long as they involve consenting adults. Refrain from weird or creepy sexual oversharing. Whatever your opinion of sex work, don’t disparage sex workers, or use words like “whore” as a pejorative. (Feel free to talk about MRAs who are using the word pejoratively.)
Don’t attack people for their religion or their lack of religion.
Don’t be a mansplainer or indeed any kind of ‘splainer. That is, don’t lecture anyone on something they know better than you, particularly if that thing is their lived experience.
Don’t post too much or try to make threads all about you. Try to avoid drama.
If you have personal issues you want to bring up, that’s fine! Use the troll-free open threads set aside for personal stuff. I’ll post a new one every couple of weeks. (I also start threads regularly to discuss big events in the news that people here are concerned about; feel free to email if you think something has happened that warrants one.)
No sockpuppeting. No lying. No misrepresentation of yourself or other people. No posting in bad faith – e.g. posting friendly comments here while trashing the site and/or the people on it elsewhere.
No pile-ons. If a number of people have already offered the same criticism of another commenter, don’t add more comments to the pile.
All this said, you don’t have to be perfect to comment here. As sociologist Katherine Cross (@Quinnae_Moon) has noted, very few people arrive “fully formed to the world of activism, the perfect agents of change, somehow entirely cognizant of the ever shifting morass of rules and prescribed or proscribed words, phrases, argot, and thought.”
I want this blog to be open to all those who genuinely oppose misogyny and bigotry more generally, even those who may slip up from time to time.
Still, if you’re new here, or new to feminism, and the regulars here are telling you to avoid certain words, or pointing out something that you’re doing that’s problematic, don’t take it as a personal attack (unless it is couched as a personal attack, in which case email me). If they tell you to avoid particular language, uh, avoid using that language, and don’t explain that in your country calling a person a something-or-other is perfectly fine.
You don’t have to agree with all the rules and/or cultural norms here; but while you’re commenting here you are expected to respect them. If you think a rule is really, really wrong or ridiculous, don’t argue about it in the comments; send me an email about it.
And this brings us to the issue of ableism, which has been a contentious one here.
NOTES ON “CRAZY”
Avoid “crazy” talk. That is, using words like “crazy,” “psycho” and the like to describe the terrible ideas and actions of people you don’t like. It’s stigmatizing to those dealing with mental illness, who really don’t need the extra indignity of being compared to MRAs. Try using words like “ridiculous” or “absurd” or “terrible” instead. Call someone an “asshole” instead of a “psycho.” Try to avoid internet diagnoses of mental illness, and don’t use autism or Aspergers as an excuse for someone’s shitty behavior.
Saying someone is “paranoid,” “delusional,” or “narcissistic” is fine, if you don’t mean it as a diagnosis; these are useful descriptive terms.
If there is evidence that someone you are discussing does indeed have a mental illness, and this is relevant to the discussion, it can be appropriate to bring this up, though you should keep in mind that a hunch is not evidence.
All this said, words like “crazy,” “psycho,” and the like are extremely common, and plenty of people (including feminists, progressives, and people dealing with mental illness themselves) use them casually without intending to stigmatize those with mental illnesses. There’s a difference between saying “crazy people should all be locked up” and “boy, Eraserhead sure was a crazy movie!”
If you’re someone who uses these terms casually, and doesn’t actually want all “crazy” people locked up, it doesn’t make you an evil person, but you need to refrain from doing it here. (Again, if you disagree with this policy, and feel a need to make this disagreement known, DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT IN THE COMMENTS, send me an email instead.)
If you are a regular commenter here, and someone uses a problematic term like “crazy” or “psycho,” remind them gently that this is not how we do things here, and send them a link to this comment policy (and possibly the Welcome Package as well). Unless what they have said is particularly egregious, do not insult them or question their motives.
If they argue, remind them that arguing about this rule is also not allowed. If they continue, do not argue back; send me or the mods a note and they will be banned. (This may take a little while, so be patient and please do not give in to the impulse to argue with them.)
If others have already reminded them of the rules, move on.
Again, if someone is acting really shitty in the comments, whether a troll or a regular, SEND THE MODS (or me) AN EMAIL.
One other thing to keep in mind:
MRAs read this blog. So I would strongly urge you to comment here using an anonymous handle that cannot be traced to your real identity. And to be very careful about revealing any sort of personal information on this blog. If you inadvertently post something using the wrong account, or that otherwise reveals personal information, let the mods know so we can remove those comments.
Oh, wait, one other other thought:
Enjoy yourself!
10/10 comment policy, love it.
Seconded.
For the record, I’m aware that I haven’t been posting much lately. Since my new job is long hours and doesn’t involve a computer I haven’t really had the chance to get into discussions, and don’t do much more than lurk now. Sorry for the absence, but I do enjoy this blog and participate as much as I can.
On the “stupid” “lame” and “dumb” debate, IMO out of those three I think “stupid” is okay to use, since for quite a long time now the word has been used to mean, well, stupid but without a disability. I am strongly against use of the word “retarded” though.
Aaand that last sentence of that last post got me put in moderation. >_< Shoulda guessed it would trigger the system, even in quote marks.
And a shout out to the Mod/s who didn’t let a comment of mine through when I accidentally signed in with my real name and then followed up with panicked “AHH! NO!”s a while back.
And another shout out to the regs who’ve patiently answered my (and others’) good faith questions.
This would be useful.
As this site educated me about MRAs (as I’ve noted, I stumbled onto it via an app called Zite after liking several other sources with similar content after first being sympathetic towards the public/off-site face of the MRM and then being horrified by what it actually was), it was also my first exposure to sensitivity towards abelist language.
A link might help head off some of the introductory questions.
While they’re helpful for newbs like me, I’m sure they’re tiresome for people who have to repeatedly engage.
I apologize if this is addressed later on in the comments/suggestions (I’m only about 1/3 of the way through, but I hear my kiddos stirring so I think my browsing time may be at an end), but I have a request if this comes to pass:
Once weekly or perhaps pinned/accessible monthly open threads.
This is a cool community and some of the most interesting exchanges I’ve read have been OT rambles.
I’ve not always had the best (or any) contribution, but a lounge where posters can mingle and ping ideas around seems worthwhile given the depth and breadth of the experiences of so many.
@NothingClever
I understand and I’m sorry you had to go through that. My mother still has moments where she’s emotionally abusive and I tend to freeze like a deer in the headlights and not stand up for myself. It’s not the only abusive relationship I’ve experienced so my radar picks it up very easily and sometimes I see it here.
And please excuse typos – once again on my phone.
It’s kind of odd…as someone with severe mental illness myself, I’ve always had something of the opposite reaction to most anti-ableist folks…I don’t really have a problem with “crazy”, but I do get bothered with people throwing around actual disorders. (“Oh, I’m so ADD and forgetful when I’m depressed but all OCD when I’m happy…I’m so tooootally schizophrenic!”) I just got to thinking, and I’m wondering if part of that might be CisHetWhiteDude privilege…even though I run into issues with people downplaying or denying my illnesses (a pretty common one is sanesplaining how ADHD isn’t real), but I generally don’t have to worry about people using my illnesses to write me off entirely (e.g., “Oh, don’t mind her, she’s just crazy.”).
Hi all. I’m an MRA and this is my first post here. I heard a good joke the other day.
A Roman walks into a bar and asks for a Martinus….
“You mean a martini?” the bartender asks.
The Roman replies, “If I wanted a double, I would have asked for it!”
I’m one of those mentally ill people who doesn’t react to crazy or nuts or looney or insane. I feel they’re so far removed and have so little reference to mental illness in general use that they aren’t even related to me. I don’t really feel marginalised for my mental illness so much as treated like a child, certainly not to the extent i do for being a woman or an atheist (and, in general, i dont feel marginalised as an atheist.) I just dont use them unless I know the people around me won’t be bothered by them because obviously some people do consider them comparable to the n-word. I think that’s an unreasonable comparison but its not something I fight about. It’s not going to hurt me not to say “crazy”.
What makes me HIT THE CEILING is constantly looking for a developmental or psychiatric disorder to either absolve someone of responsibility when they do something terrible or explain why they did it. I LOSE MY SHIT over that. The other one is labeling anyone who does bad things mentally ill. It just reinforces a stereotype of mentally ill people being a threat.
Thank you so much for your work, David!! And as someone said, thanks for putting up with us!
I think this update was necessary since the last sudden increase of traffic -and commenters.
I believe this policy is also an excellent roadmap to understand what goes on around here.
Also, how would you all feel about open threads for newbies/feminism 101 every now and then? Do you guys think it might help (as long as we keep bad faith trolls in check)? Do you lurkers feel you’d participate?
I think Had to Be Gaslighting is ready to go now…
(Blockquoting from my phone, may the Mammoths have mercy on my soul)
I guess we’ll all see how it plays out
As a playful and sarcastic dork, who takes seriously the “…and mocked” part of the sites motto, I hope this new comment policy is enforced with wisdom and understanding and doesn’t cause the more self-righteous among us to go cra….. er …. to take enforcement to an unhealthy extreme.
A few people elsewhere suggested a boilerplate response for ableist posts from presumed first time posters. I didn’t notice any thrown out ( and I apologize if I missed them) but perhaps something along these lines
Dear [Sir/Madam/Genderless Forum Entity]
Your post, quoted above, contains ableist language in violation of the comment policy here at We Hunted the Mammoth. Please review the comment policy here before posting further.
Additionally, while we understand the natural impulse to defend or justify one’s actions, we strongly advise against that course here. Previous discussions of a similar vein have already been accounted for in the comments policy and, frankly, many of our regulars are tired of repeating the same arguments.
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.
Thank you and good day
If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all, as my mother would say. 🙂
The way I’ve often heard this explained on other blogs, is that someone’s blog is their personal space, like their house, and anyone reading and/or commenting is a guest, and should behave with good manners by respecting the house rules, even if they don’t agree with them.
Thank you, David, for your time and effort in constructing the new comments policy (and in running and maintaining this blog, of course), it is much appreciated. The new policy seems excellent, but there are a few things I would like to address.
Firstly, here:
Could it simply be Avoid internet diagnoses of mental illness?
I ask this because I can see commenters who insist on doing this referring back to the comments policy and quoting this, saying, ‘Well, the comments policy doesn’t out-right ban this, it only says to try to avoid it, and I think it’s a perfectly valid thing to discuss blah blah blah ad nauseum.’ People seem to be really digging in on their ‘right’ to internet diagnose, I am really tired of it and would prefer an unequivocal statement here, please.
Also, and I don’t know if this is a bit too niche, and I would value input from other people, but there was a recent thread (I think it was the Peter Nolan one) where not only were many, many people making internet diagnoses, but also saying that the mentally ill should be forcibly incarcerated, and I found that was making me very upset and anxious, as it is a deep-seated fear of mine that one day that will be done to me. It could be maybe included under the ‘No threats or violent comment’ rule. I don’t know if it’s a thing that is going to come up often enough to warrant a specific note, or maybe I’m just being self-absorbed and making this all about me – what do others think?
Next:
Does this also refer to attacks and accusations that are not directed to specific commenters? Because right here in this thread we have @Had To Be Said accusing commenters here of directing abuse at him on previous occasions:
And a later post:
However, when asked to provide specific examples, which should be easy if the abuse here is so prevalent, s/he does not. Had To Be Said is not the only one making these accusations recently, that the tone of this blog is abusive, but it is always discussed in general terms and without specific examples, even when asked. As @weirwoodtreehugger said earlier in this thread:
And I agree.
I’m going to start a new comment now, because this one is getting rather long. 🙂
I really wish calling people insane or performing armchair diagnosis would become a widely-recognized no-go area. Even if you don’t care about how insulting it is, it’s poison for any sort of discussion or debate. So many ideological clashes boil down to “liberals/conservatives/christians/atheists/MRAs/feminists are all insaaaaaaaaaane!”
This looks good. I especially like the focus on ableism; That’s one of the things trolls are frequently guilty of since they know they’d be spotted if they tried more blatant shit, like racist and misogynistic slurs. However, it is also good that newbies who have grown accustomed to ableism outside WHTM now have a clear guideline to work within.
Though as always, I would presume this is all decided on a case-by-case basis. A good indicator of a troll and/or an asshole is insisting on following the letter, not the spirit, of the policy. The spirit being, here and in real life: Don’t be a jerk.
I agree that “stupid” is a bit of a grey area. I’ve always used it to describe someone deliberately missing the point because they either don’t want to admit that they’re wrong, or because they enjoy stirring up shit, not because of a handicap. But I’ll be happy to avoid it if that’s what seems best. Why would I insist on using words that may upset someone else unless I was a total asshole? Plus, rethinking your vocabulary and creating new, exciting words and phrases that do not rely on tired clichés and stereotypes (and consequently perpetuate said tired clichés and stereotypes) is actually quite fun!
Finally, a big thanks to all who have stayed strong on the ableism point (WWTH, Pandapool and PI spring to mind, though there are many others). Personally, I have tried to avoid ableism arguments partly because I have recently been dealing with my personal mental health issues (including not trusting my own judgement on these issues), and partly because there are a lot of people here who I know can deal with these arguments in a more constructive manner than yours truly.
Okay, now onto the next thing. 🙂
I think perhaps a site-specific definition of how many posts constitute ‘dog-piling’, ‘spamming’ and ‘derailing’, because I share @weirwoodtreehugger, @Kirbywrap and @sevenofmine’s concerns that these seem to mean different things to different people. In my opinion, the supposed ‘dog-piling’ has resulted from the way comments system work, i.e. inadvertent ninja-ing, not any malice, and I am concerned that, with the amount of digging in that goes on with regards to ablesim, a lot of ableist comments will get past unchallenged. As @sevenofmine put it (my emphasis in bold):
What I have seen repeatedly in threads (e.g. my go-to example, the horrible Peter Nolan thread) is that the commenters who push back against the first couple of ableist commenters get caught up in a debate because the original ableist commenter digs their feet in and argues the point, and meanwhile another ableist comment pops up, and then another, and another – so clearly people are not reading the request to the first few ableist commenters to stop, that ableism is not acceptable, or are simply ignoring it because they don’t agree.
So I am concerned that requiring people not to counter ableism after x amounts of attempts will lead to an ableism dog-pile (a slugdog-pile, if you will 😉 ) coming from multiple ableist commenters given free rein to indulge themselves. You are awesome, David, but you are only one chap, and an awful amount of garbage can be posted in very little time. 🙁
This kind of leads me to my next point, which is more of an observation than a critique. Most of this new Comments Policy was covered already in the old Comments Policy and the Welcome Package, and people seemed to feel free to ignore them. People have been linked to both in reply to problematic comments within threads and still gone on to repeat the objectionable behaviour. David posts a request under certain posts reminding commenters not to use ‘crazy talk’ and still people – repeatedly – do so.
Also, I am quite tired of hearing that the old Comments Policy is ‘hard to find’ or ‘not obvious’ enough. It’s right at the top of blog, and the Welcome Package is just to the right, under a giant candle. At some point people have to take responsibility for their own behaviour and either actively look for a blog’s comment policy, read it before commenting, and follow it, or apologise when it is pointed out they have violated the rules, ask about the comments policy if they have genuinely not realised such things exist, and then read it and follow it.
I guess my point is that some people are not going to read or follow the Comments policy unless it is downloaded directly into their brain, and even then they’d still act like it doesn’t apply to them.
Similarly, the request for links to ‘Feminism 101’ or ‘Ableism 101’, while of course I don’t have any objection to this, I am sceptical as to their utilisation, at least by the type of commenters that are invested in their -isms and trollish behaviour, and I also don’t think it is fair to expect David to educate us, he doesn’t owe us his time and effort, and nor do any of the commenters. This is a blog about MRAs and misogyny, not a Feminist 101 blog, or an Ableism 101 blog, or an Anything Else 101 blog, we need to take responsibility for our own education, we have the internet for Pete’s sake, just Google it (but don’t google Dream it, that way lies slugdogs and eyeball monsters).
Anyway, I want to thank David for this blog, I have read several comments by people who have come here after dabbling in MRA groups, and had their eyes opened to the reality of MRAs, so I think it is no exaggeration to say that sites like these do important work, documenting the misogyny of society and exposing MRAs for what they really are. So thank you for the time and effort you put into this blog, David, kudos, and huzzah!
On ‘stupid’, ‘lame’ and ‘dumb’, my opinion is that stupid is okay, but ‘lame’ and ‘dumb’ are still too close to their original meanings of ‘disabled’ and ‘mute’ that using them as insults demeans people with those disabilities, so I personally don’t use them. Same with ‘moron’ – I remember seeing something about how words like ‘idiot’ and ‘moron’ were not too long ago specific medical terms on a scale for people with developmental disabilities and it really made me feel awful. 🙁
Finally, I enjoyed the Google Dream posts, for me they were creepy and disturbing in a visceral way but not unbearably so, but I completely understand that others would prefer any future such posts be hidden. Buzzfeed did an interesting post about it, but I thought the images David did were better. I’m wondering what peacocks, Arcimboldo and Hieronymus Bosch’s works, and Hitler would look like given the GD treatment. 😀
I also enjoy the reaction pics and gifs that people post. 🙂
Sorry for the long post, that’s me done for now. ‘Bye all!
@Deb Hitchens:
But we go off-topic all the time.
Sometimes it’s useful troll repellant. Talking bras seems to work the best in that regards, but we’ve done video games, movies and yes, food, too. Incidentally, I haven’t seen anything much in the way of recipe sharing recently.
Sometimes, we go off-topic because there hasn’t been a thread posted in a day or so, and the topic of the top thread gets thoroughly digested.
Sometimes, people avoid drama in another thread.
And lastly, it doesn’t sit very well with me to enshrine in the comments policy a dictate concerning what we commenters can talk about. Just because we don’t talk about the serious things going on in the world all the time, doesn’t mean we don’t care.
Thanks, he’ll be here all week. Tip your waitress!
Also, dragon!
http://40.media.tumblr.com/d7ed8a06e4fa7cde965f4811be589a0a/tumblr_nbleoxa3Ce1ro2bqto1_500.jpg
Erm, I said…
Not that I am or have ever been or will ever be violent or dangerous to others (i.e. the reasons given to justify forcible incarceration), it’s just one of those fears I have… 🙁
@winter_sky
You’re not the only one. It terrifies me too, especially since I recently heard from a friend about an autistic woman being taken away by police and (the friend was pretty sure) forced into an institution for having a non-violent breakdown in a mall. Because we can’t have autistic people having breakdowns, I guess.
I don’t know if I’ve told that story here before, but… yeah. The friend was using this as a way to talk about how great her family member was for buying the woman an ice cream, too, which adds to the terrifying in many other ways. *shudder*
winter_sky, I’m sorry that you’re afraid you might be incarcerated against your will.
Internet hug, if it would make you feel better?