As promised, here is the new and I think improved comments policy.
It’s a bit long, but that’s in part because I’ve included sections that are designed to hopefully eliminate some of the contentious and often repetitive debates that have erupted in the past over the issue of ableism — in particular the use of words like “crazy” and “psycho” and the like. In the future, I am hoping that we can simply link new commenters to the policy (in particular, the “notes on ‘crazy'”) section and avoid a lot of the drama.
This policy is stricter towards those who “dig in” and insist on using problematic terms even though they’ve been informed of the rules about them; if they’ve been linked to the comments policy and persist in arguing or behaving badly, they will be banned. I’m also asking regulars to rein in their language in criticizing first-time offenders, and to not argue back with them if they persist. (There’s not much point to it, because offenders who persist will be banned.)
Not all of the changes and additions to the comments policy are in response to the ableism debates; I’ve also taken into consideration other controversies here, as well as comments policies on other blogs and broader discussions online about the best ways to moderate sites.
One other change: I will also put regular reminders in posts that all new commenters should read the comments policy before posting.
I am very much cognizant that many people who regularly read this blog — some of them who comment here regularly, some of whom are lurkers or only occasional commenters — are frustrated by the flame wars that have erupted here from time to time. I am frustrated as well, and troubled by the personal attacks I’ve seen in these discussions, directed not at trolls but at other commenters here in good faith.
I hope this new comment policy can end some of these flame wars before they start. If it doesn’t, I will (reluctantly) have to resort to shutting threads down and even suspending some commenters.
So here is the new comments policy. Discuss. Suggest improvements. Be civil.
Welcome prospective commenters!
Unmoderated internet forums quickly become shitheaps, so we have a few rules here. One thing to remember right off the bat: this is a feminist blog, designed (mostly) for a feminist audience. You don’t have to be a particular kind of feminist to post here, or even a feminist at all, but you do need to keep this in mind.
First comments from new commenters – or old commenters changing their name – automatically go to moderation. Regardless of your politics, if you start off here with a jerky or tediously argumentative comment, or if you trigger some other red flag for me, your first comment will never see the light of day.
MRAs, MGTOWs, PUAs, Red Pillers, “Equalists,” #GamerGaters and the like: you will be allowed to post here, if your first comment is amusing and/or not especially egregious, and if you more-or-less behave.
But I reserve the right to revoke your posting privileges at any time for any reason. You have a right to your opinions, but you don’t have a right to our attention. I am especially not interested in hearing your thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian (or some other target of angry dude harassment online).
Oh, and I sometimes set aside threads here as “no troll, no MRA” threads. If you post in one of them, even politely, you will be banned.
If you’re NOT an MRA or a troll, welcome!
You’re who this blog is really meant for. The comments too, provided you can participate in a generally constructive manner and can treat those you disagree with here with a certain degree of respect. Snark is fine; attacks and accusations and namecalling, not so much.
If someone – whether a troll or a regular commenter — is acting badly enough to possibly warrant a suspension or ban, EMAIL ME OR THE MODS. That’s the fastest and most effective way to get it taken care of.
Some slightly more specific guidelines.
No bigotry (misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, body shaming, and so forth). No slurs. I’ve put the worst ones in the mod filter, so comments containing them won’t appear. If you want to discuss someone else’s use of a slur, disguise the word so your comment won’t get caught by the filter – though if you do this as a “clever” way to use a slur yourself, you may well find yourself banned.
No threats or violent comments. That includes telling someone to “die in a fire” or remarking that so-and-so would probably be better off dead. This rule is in effect even when you are talking about vile misogynistic shitbags.
No gratuitously nasty personal attacks. Yes, discussions can sometimes get a bit contentious. You’re not required to be perfectly nice all the time. Just don’t be a total asshole. And don’t drag your disagreements with someone into every thread.
No doxxing or posting of personal identifying information. Don’t spread rumors or speculate without evidence on the possible criminal activity of anyone else, whether this is another commenter or a misogynistic shitbag.
No rape apologism, pedo apologism, victim blaming, and so forth.
Don’t misgender anyone. If you do it accidentally, apologize and get it right the next time. If you do it deliberately, you’re out.
Don’t attack anyone for their sexual preferences or kinks, so long as they involve consenting adults. Refrain from weird or creepy sexual oversharing. Whatever your opinion of sex work, don’t disparage sex workers, or use words like “whore” as a pejorative. (Feel free to talk about MRAs who are using the word pejoratively.)
Don’t attack people for their religion or their lack of religion.
Don’t be a mansplainer or indeed any kind of ‘splainer. That is, don’t lecture anyone on something they know better than you, particularly if that thing is their lived experience.
Don’t post too much or try to make threads all about you. Try to avoid drama.
If you have personal issues you want to bring up, that’s fine! Use the troll-free open threads set aside for personal stuff. I’ll post a new one every couple of weeks. (I also start threads regularly to discuss big events in the news that people here are concerned about; feel free to email if you think something has happened that warrants one.)
No sockpuppeting. No lying. No misrepresentation of yourself or other people. No posting in bad faith – e.g. posting friendly comments here while trashing the site and/or the people on it elsewhere.
No pile-ons. If a number of people have already offered the same criticism of another commenter, don’t add more comments to the pile.
All this said, you don’t have to be perfect to comment here. As sociologist Katherine Cross (@Quinnae_Moon) has noted, very few people arrive “fully formed to the world of activism, the perfect agents of change, somehow entirely cognizant of the ever shifting morass of rules and prescribed or proscribed words, phrases, argot, and thought.”
I want this blog to be open to all those who genuinely oppose misogyny and bigotry more generally, even those who may slip up from time to time.
Still, if you’re new here, or new to feminism, and the regulars here are telling you to avoid certain words, or pointing out something that you’re doing that’s problematic, don’t take it as a personal attack (unless it is couched as a personal attack, in which case email me). If they tell you to avoid particular language, uh, avoid using that language, and don’t explain that in your country calling a person a something-or-other is perfectly fine.
You don’t have to agree with all the rules and/or cultural norms here; but while you’re commenting here you are expected to respect them. If you think a rule is really, really wrong or ridiculous, don’t argue about it in the comments; send me an email about it.
And this brings us to the issue of ableism, which has been a contentious one here.
NOTES ON “CRAZY”
Avoid “crazy” talk. That is, using words like “crazy,” “psycho” and the like to describe the terrible ideas and actions of people you don’t like. It’s stigmatizing to those dealing with mental illness, who really don’t need the extra indignity of being compared to MRAs. Try using words like “ridiculous” or “absurd” or “terrible” instead. Call someone an “asshole” instead of a “psycho.” Try to avoid internet diagnoses of mental illness, and don’t use autism or Aspergers as an excuse for someone’s shitty behavior.
Saying someone is “paranoid,” “delusional,” or “narcissistic” is fine, if you don’t mean it as a diagnosis; these are useful descriptive terms.
If there is evidence that someone you are discussing does indeed have a mental illness, and this is relevant to the discussion, it can be appropriate to bring this up, though you should keep in mind that a hunch is not evidence.
All this said, words like “crazy,” “psycho,” and the like are extremely common, and plenty of people (including feminists, progressives, and people dealing with mental illness themselves) use them casually without intending to stigmatize those with mental illnesses. There’s a difference between saying “crazy people should all be locked up” and “boy, Eraserhead sure was a crazy movie!”
If you’re someone who uses these terms casually, and doesn’t actually want all “crazy” people locked up, it doesn’t make you an evil person, but you need to refrain from doing it here. (Again, if you disagree with this policy, and feel a need to make this disagreement known, DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT IN THE COMMENTS, send me an email instead.)
If you are a regular commenter here, and someone uses a problematic term like “crazy” or “psycho,” remind them gently that this is not how we do things here, and send them a link to this comment policy (and possibly the Welcome Package as well). Unless what they have said is particularly egregious, do not insult them or question their motives.
If they argue, remind them that arguing about this rule is also not allowed. If they continue, do not argue back; send me or the mods a note and they will be banned. (This may take a little while, so be patient and please do not give in to the impulse to argue with them.)
If others have already reminded them of the rules, move on.
Again, if someone is acting really shitty in the comments, whether a troll or a regular, SEND THE MODS (or me) AN EMAIL.
One other thing to keep in mind:
MRAs read this blog. So I would strongly urge you to comment here using an anonymous handle that cannot be traced to your real identity. And to be very careful about revealing any sort of personal information on this blog. If you inadvertently post something using the wrong account, or that otherwise reveals personal information, let the mods know so we can remove those comments.
Oh, wait, one other other thought:
Enjoy yourself!
Uh… I’m pretty sure NothingClever IS HTBS, Auntie.
This is getting more and more interesting…
@deniseeliza & pronghorncanteloupe
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. You both gave me insights that helped me reflect on my own behavior towards people here.
@those who posted after them
Are we seriously having a “this is a mockery blog” conversation at this point?
A dancing gif is a threat? And HTBS has been inquestionable?
I can accept that ypu disagree with how we handle it, but not seeing any fault at all in HTBS, in all their comments here?
That… Somehow doesn’t add up.
@Orion
I agree with what NothingClever said regardless. It’s how I’ve felt for a long time.
@GrumpyOldMangina
At your service!
I smell a possible shit storm coming. I’m outie 5000.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ABANDON-THREAD.gif
@GOSM which is why my statement was extremely qualified. I said “Chicago is maybe the most segregated city, or at least very bad”. And THAT was mocked, give me a break, why are you even arguing with me about that, it’s all a matter of public record if you wanna go back and look at the thread. I’m not really interested in hearing people defend other people denying the severity of racism, the reality is, several scholars have put Chicago on their top ten list, some at number one, and I linked evidence for that. No one had any call to dispute it. Especially given that it was a throwaway line really, my larger point was that racism exists in the North, which presumably white people were also denying, the fact is, racism exists in the North too, and that was what zi was trying to demonstrate, and that did not deserve dismissal and mockery from anyone, not cool. And now I really just have to stop. Because I. Can’t. Even. Peace and love.
@Grumpy again
I get the feeling that when we explain what we were calling out, some people understand we’re dismissing or denying their experiences.
I think it’s possible some people feel upset because what they recall as an injustice against them is being questioned by our experiences.
I still don’t know how to comvey the idea that we’re describing how we see it “from the other side”. Maybe both groups are in good faith and are sincerly trying to stick to the rules.
How do we solve this is beyond me and I’m going to bed.
Buenas noches y viva Peron!
@Pandapool
I think I may be out too, with the addition that I’m emailing David. This thread is just turning into a huge mess in a kinda uncomfortable way.
http://i.imgur.com/0oBGY.gif
I’m just going to copy paste HTBS’s very first post on this site.
Oh look. Zie’s mocking David for having a futon. And for not getting laid. At least in their perception. There’s a little bonus ageism in there too!
If people are really so eager to scold us that they’ll take the side of an obvious troll who clearly came to this thread for the express purpose of stirring shit up, I don’t know why those people were ever here in the first place.
I’d also like to reiterate a point that SFHC made in the other thread that was never truly addressed. If multiple posts pointing out another commenter’s ableism or anything else deemed problematic is dogpiling and bullying, than why is that people constantly calling some of the commenters here cliquish and mean not also dogpiling and bullying?
It’s a serious question and it’s being completely ignored.
I would also like to point out that Nothing Clever was never bullied on this site. I’m sorry she’s leaving, but I understand why she is. This is a site full of opinionated people who feed trolls till they burst and not everybody is up for that all the time. I really have nothing negative to say against her. But, I do want to point out that we never bullied her at all. There were two posts, one from me and one from Paradoxy respectfully disagreeing with her that people should be necessarily willing to always provide people with social justice 101 education. There was no name calling and no pile on. I backed my own post up with a link and a quote from the geek feminism wikia to show that it wasn’t an unreasonable WTHM meanie position, but a common position that being expected to politely educate people all the time is exhausting and harmful.
I know I’m in danger of heading into serious teal deer territory here, but I’d like to ask people to consider one other thing, that some of this certainty that we’re too mean could have to do with some internalized misogyny. Most of the criticism, I’ve noticed has been directed to female commenters despite the fact that our male commenters like Kirbywrap, Anachronist, and EJ (the other one) are expert snarkers and troll busters who don’t mince words as well. Yet, they don’t get the mean and cliquish accusation anywhere near as often.
Part of patriarchy is the expectation that women be polite and patient. That we educate and nurture, even if it is at the expense of ourselves. It’s something we all have to learn. It’s a trap I catch myself falling into at times even though I’m a lifelong feminist who has always opposed sexism. Do we really want this site to turn into one more place where women are expected to be nice. To express our opinions in a way that is not too strident and couldn’t possibly offend anyone. Just something to think about.
@Auntie Alias:
I agree with what NothingClever said regardless. It’s how I’ve felt for a long time.
Me too. Frankly, I lost hope that this would ever change, or even be addressed in any reasonable (ha) way, which is why seeing those new posting rules has made me slightly optimistic. But only slightly.
Plus what KL said, especially in the last three sentences.
I disagree with the tendency to brush people’s concerns of cliquishness off as a bunch of people who are upset to be disagreed with, or who post just to disagree. While that may be true at times, I can see where people may feel like an outsider.
Several times I have seen instances where someone will post a thought and there is no response, yet a regular will post the exact same idea, sometimes close to word for word, a little further in the thread and everyone is all over it like it’s a fresh, new idea. It’s really hard at times not to consider that many just skip over posts of non-regulars to those they know, and whether it’s purposeful or not, it’s a real good way to make some people feel invisible.
@KL
I remember the conversation. I distinctly remember people explaining what Grumpy said. There might have been mockery, but there was a lot of good faith calling out on you.
I don’t mean to be mean, I too am a bullying and abuse survivor, and I understand the pain you speak of. I think you paraphrased me down there, and I think you missed my point.
I said name calling is an abusive *action*, but for there to be an abusive *situation* (which is what I mean when I say abuse) there has to be a power imbalance.
I only answered this becasuse HTBS was arguing that certain acts are in and of themselves abusing, regardless of the context.
By their logic, pushing a person is abuse, even if you’re pushing someone away who is attacking you, or in order to save them from danger.
Come think of it, no wonder htbs finds JBs claims reasonable: If defense is a form of abuse, you might as well go all the way through and cause permanent harm.
This also remind me of the “violence scales” ised in MRA studies of domestic violence, in which any avt scores points, regardless of wether it was defensive or not.
Anyway, I see a lot of people popping out to twll the story who don’t seem to understand why they were called out in the first place. So of course it’s scary if being called out is random abuse.
I don’t see how to solve it either, but if people can’t understand why fantasies about harming others are NOT about self defense, because self defence is about NOT causing harm, and feel uncomfortable when we call them out on it and don’t even get what the probelm is in the first place…
Then maybe, just maybe, I’m actually ok with letting them go.
Or stay and post, you know, whatever. I just think it’s very basic stuff, and as mentioned many times, this is not an anything-101 blog, it’s not a safe space, and it’s for mocking misogyny, amd I would add all types of bigotry no matter how subtle.
Wow, so let me see if I’ve got this straight. So showing up here to fling vague accusations of meanness and dogpiling but refusing to provide any specific examples after flouncing at some unspecified point in the past over some unspecified thing said by some unspecified person is reasonable behavior. But expressing even mild exasperation at many people (over the course of several days and several threads now) brandishing vague charges of “mean” and “dogpile” and “abuse” without ever providing any kind of specific example…is crossing some line?
Do you people have no sense of proportion at all?
@WWTH
Not the internalized misogyny accusation again! That’s just about as bad as internet diagnosing and I hate it.
There’s a huge difference between “polite and patient” versus cursing angrily at someone who isn’t a troll. As for as cliquishness, I haven’t seen anyone singled out so I don’t know how you see that as gendered. From my POV it isn’t.
Did NothingClever even claim to have been bullied? The post above was her take on the dynamics here. She is entitled to have an opinion even if she hasn’t been a target.
The former is directed at a named individual while the latter is an observation about the commentariat in general. The latter is not bullying!
@sevenofmine
Ah, a concrete example of bullying.
1. I didn’t just show up here. I’ve been posting for awhile.
2. I didn’t flounce. I quietly stopped posting without announcing it.
3. I haven’t used the word “mean”.
Any more lies you’d like to share? Tossing the word “fuck” out isn’t “mild exasperation”. It’s verbal abuse.
@Aunt Edna
The new rules will be useless if they aren’t enforced. I asked earlier but didn’t receive an answer: are there any mods beside David these days?
Well, I tried not to look, lol, I really did, but since people are still talking at me after I tried to force myself not to look at this page anymore….
I didn’t understand the full context of why you were all pissed off at Dude. So fine, I don’t know shit about that. So I will withdraw my objection in that particular matter, at least for now, because I really don’t wanna get into it and clearly IH2BS said something really crappy that is abusive language – mocking someone’s sex life, not cool. But I do hope you listen to the people who have been here a while who are now leaving because they might actually know what is up in a way I don’t. I’m happy to admit when I have erred and in this case I myself was speaking without knowing the full story.
As for my personal situation? I am sorry but since we’ve decided we don’t have to be nice to each other, can I just say what in the actual fuck was I being “called out” for? What I said was never proven wrong by anyone. It was mocked and then I proved it correct. No one else posted any actual data so… Seriously, what the fuck? You don’t have to go on your memory.The entire thread is right fucking here: https://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/06/18/prominent-mra-tries-to-blame-charleston-shooting-on-feminism-and-its-alleged-lies-about-rape-culture/#more-16903
Soooo, I’m glad to have met some nice and smart people here briefly, and I wish the, the best. I am going to try very hard to not participate in commenting here in future, if you wanna keep talking suit about me or whoever else I guess go ahead, but aim going to try to keep myself from reading any more of this crap. It’s been an experience. Best of luck. Thanks to Cavid for an interesting and Important catalogue.
This is something I’ve never noticed before but will keep an eye out for in the future. Thanks for pointing it out and bringing something more constructive than just “you’re mean” to the table. I think this is kind of thing that people wanted to know about when asking for examples of cliquish behavior. FWIW, I doubt this is anything intentional, more just that people keep an eye out for the posts written by commenters they know they like already. I’ll try and make sure I’m not doing this, because contrary to the beliefs of many, apparently, I do want everyone to feel welcome and heard.
And sorry about th typos and sorry for having emotions and making mistakes and shit.
So, you’re the only one who gets to make accusations? You can claim that you were dogpiled, without providing evidence and we’re all supposed to just take your word for it, because you don’t want to rehash it (even though you were the one who brought it up again and again and again). Do you think you’re immune to internalized misogyny?
Who has been cursing angrily? You haven’t seen anyone singled out? Really? Go reread the thread this argument started in then. You also said that I was part of a dogpiling that you felt was unfair, so you did single me out a bit. Of course, I have no fricking idea what I did because you still won’t even give an inkling
No. And I never said she did. I was trying to head off any accusations from other commenters that she was bullied off the site.
Oh, so it’s not bullying if it’s directed at a group. No. It’s never wrong to trash a group.
Wut?
KL,
I do think there were some misunderstandings in that thread and different people were having different conversations. I do hope you don’t leave.
No. It’s not. It’s how people talk when they’re frustrated.
The rest of your picking at trivial inaccuracies in a paraphrasing of what’s been going on here the last few days isn’t even worth addressing. You leaving without fanfare or not actually using the word “mean” don’t change the broader point. You’re not the only person engaging in this behavior.
@KL
Too bad I don’t remember when the fuck we agreee that, but ok.
Thanks for sharing the link to the thread. It was pretty entertaining.
You demanded everyone agreed Chicago is the most segregated city, even though you should have lived in EVERY city to know that (how else would you compare), even though people answered who had lived in Chicago.
Maybe people were not gentle, but your claim was not that reasonable eitver, someone even pointed out they thought rather useless to compare cities to find “the” most segregated.
You had pretty snarky comments as well, even though you preach politeness here. What the fuck?
Wow. Shitting on a black person for talking about segregation and racism is hitting a new low.
Hmm so I thought I would check out what your response might be lol, I’m sorry that I keep saying I should disengage when I didn’t hear your response first, because that’s just shitty, I shouldn’t have said I was gonna disengage when it’s at a point where out of respect to the other person I shouldn’t and also personally I am too interested in what is being said to resist.
I’m not black, my family is biracial and I lived in the hood but I’m not a Rachel Whatshername and not trying to be, Im sorry if you got the wrong impression, not trying to give it.
Yea, I actually never insisted anyone agree with me that Chicago is #1, I stated several times that doesn’t matter. The link is there, anyone can read the thread for themselves.
I have to admit I got really pissed off and was harsher than I like to be. And for that I apologize.
I am not sorry for being pissed off about racism and segregation, which hurts my family and friends every damn day.
I am sorry for not having a more respectful tone at times.
I’m not sorry for defending myself and I’m still correct in the facts I presented.
I still think people need to try to be nicer. Just because I fucked up in that regard at times doesn’t invalidate how shitty I was treated and how shitty other people treat each other,
All over the Internet and IRL.
I don’t see why being nice being associated with women makes it a bad thing, maybe men should be nicer too.
Anyway, I can’t keep trying to leave and then getting dragged back. This clearly isn’t healthy for me. So I said my apologies and admitted I was wrong where I was and stood up for what was right and there is really no reason for me to keep arguing now. Peace.
Btw, thanks to everyone who had my back – Lea, POM, AA, WWTH, Davd, etc.
& PS, the way you compare how segregated cities are is by looking at stuff like Census data. Which I did post.