As promised, here is the new and I think improved comments policy.
It’s a bit long, but that’s in part because I’ve included sections that are designed to hopefully eliminate some of the contentious and often repetitive debates that have erupted in the past over the issue of ableism — in particular the use of words like “crazy” and “psycho” and the like. In the future, I am hoping that we can simply link new commenters to the policy (in particular, the “notes on ‘crazy'”) section and avoid a lot of the drama.
This policy is stricter towards those who “dig in” and insist on using problematic terms even though they’ve been informed of the rules about them; if they’ve been linked to the comments policy and persist in arguing or behaving badly, they will be banned. I’m also asking regulars to rein in their language in criticizing first-time offenders, and to not argue back with them if they persist. (There’s not much point to it, because offenders who persist will be banned.)
Not all of the changes and additions to the comments policy are in response to the ableism debates; I’ve also taken into consideration other controversies here, as well as comments policies on other blogs and broader discussions online about the best ways to moderate sites.
One other change: I will also put regular reminders in posts that all new commenters should read the comments policy before posting.
I am very much cognizant that many people who regularly read this blog — some of them who comment here regularly, some of whom are lurkers or only occasional commenters — are frustrated by the flame wars that have erupted here from time to time. I am frustrated as well, and troubled by the personal attacks I’ve seen in these discussions, directed not at trolls but at other commenters here in good faith.
I hope this new comment policy can end some of these flame wars before they start. If it doesn’t, I will (reluctantly) have to resort to shutting threads down and even suspending some commenters.
So here is the new comments policy. Discuss. Suggest improvements. Be civil.
Welcome prospective commenters!
Unmoderated internet forums quickly become shitheaps, so we have a few rules here. One thing to remember right off the bat: this is a feminist blog, designed (mostly) for a feminist audience. You don’t have to be a particular kind of feminist to post here, or even a feminist at all, but you do need to keep this in mind.
First comments from new commenters – or old commenters changing their name – automatically go to moderation. Regardless of your politics, if you start off here with a jerky or tediously argumentative comment, or if you trigger some other red flag for me, your first comment will never see the light of day.
MRAs, MGTOWs, PUAs, Red Pillers, “Equalists,” #GamerGaters and the like: you will be allowed to post here, if your first comment is amusing and/or not especially egregious, and if you more-or-less behave.
But I reserve the right to revoke your posting privileges at any time for any reason. You have a right to your opinions, but you don’t have a right to our attention. I am especially not interested in hearing your thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian (or some other target of angry dude harassment online).
Oh, and I sometimes set aside threads here as “no troll, no MRA” threads. If you post in one of them, even politely, you will be banned.
If you’re NOT an MRA or a troll, welcome!
You’re who this blog is really meant for. The comments too, provided you can participate in a generally constructive manner and can treat those you disagree with here with a certain degree of respect. Snark is fine; attacks and accusations and namecalling, not so much.
If someone – whether a troll or a regular commenter — is acting badly enough to possibly warrant a suspension or ban, EMAIL ME OR THE MODS. That’s the fastest and most effective way to get it taken care of.
Some slightly more specific guidelines.
No bigotry (misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, body shaming, and so forth). No slurs. I’ve put the worst ones in the mod filter, so comments containing them won’t appear. If you want to discuss someone else’s use of a slur, disguise the word so your comment won’t get caught by the filter – though if you do this as a “clever” way to use a slur yourself, you may well find yourself banned.
No threats or violent comments. That includes telling someone to “die in a fire” or remarking that so-and-so would probably be better off dead. This rule is in effect even when you are talking about vile misogynistic shitbags.
No gratuitously nasty personal attacks. Yes, discussions can sometimes get a bit contentious. You’re not required to be perfectly nice all the time. Just don’t be a total asshole. And don’t drag your disagreements with someone into every thread.
No doxxing or posting of personal identifying information. Don’t spread rumors or speculate without evidence on the possible criminal activity of anyone else, whether this is another commenter or a misogynistic shitbag.
No rape apologism, pedo apologism, victim blaming, and so forth.
Don’t misgender anyone. If you do it accidentally, apologize and get it right the next time. If you do it deliberately, you’re out.
Don’t attack anyone for their sexual preferences or kinks, so long as they involve consenting adults. Refrain from weird or creepy sexual oversharing. Whatever your opinion of sex work, don’t disparage sex workers, or use words like “whore” as a pejorative. (Feel free to talk about MRAs who are using the word pejoratively.)
Don’t attack people for their religion or their lack of religion.
Don’t be a mansplainer or indeed any kind of ‘splainer. That is, don’t lecture anyone on something they know better than you, particularly if that thing is their lived experience.
Don’t post too much or try to make threads all about you. Try to avoid drama.
If you have personal issues you want to bring up, that’s fine! Use the troll-free open threads set aside for personal stuff. I’ll post a new one every couple of weeks. (I also start threads regularly to discuss big events in the news that people here are concerned about; feel free to email if you think something has happened that warrants one.)
No sockpuppeting. No lying. No misrepresentation of yourself or other people. No posting in bad faith – e.g. posting friendly comments here while trashing the site and/or the people on it elsewhere.
No pile-ons. If a number of people have already offered the same criticism of another commenter, don’t add more comments to the pile.
All this said, you don’t have to be perfect to comment here. As sociologist Katherine Cross (@Quinnae_Moon) has noted, very few people arrive “fully formed to the world of activism, the perfect agents of change, somehow entirely cognizant of the ever shifting morass of rules and prescribed or proscribed words, phrases, argot, and thought.”
I want this blog to be open to all those who genuinely oppose misogyny and bigotry more generally, even those who may slip up from time to time.
Still, if you’re new here, or new to feminism, and the regulars here are telling you to avoid certain words, or pointing out something that you’re doing that’s problematic, don’t take it as a personal attack (unless it is couched as a personal attack, in which case email me). If they tell you to avoid particular language, uh, avoid using that language, and don’t explain that in your country calling a person a something-or-other is perfectly fine.
You don’t have to agree with all the rules and/or cultural norms here; but while you’re commenting here you are expected to respect them. If you think a rule is really, really wrong or ridiculous, don’t argue about it in the comments; send me an email about it.
And this brings us to the issue of ableism, which has been a contentious one here.
NOTES ON “CRAZY”
Avoid “crazy” talk. That is, using words like “crazy,” “psycho” and the like to describe the terrible ideas and actions of people you don’t like. It’s stigmatizing to those dealing with mental illness, who really don’t need the extra indignity of being compared to MRAs. Try using words like “ridiculous” or “absurd” or “terrible” instead. Call someone an “asshole” instead of a “psycho.” Try to avoid internet diagnoses of mental illness, and don’t use autism or Aspergers as an excuse for someone’s shitty behavior.
Saying someone is “paranoid,” “delusional,” or “narcissistic” is fine, if you don’t mean it as a diagnosis; these are useful descriptive terms.
If there is evidence that someone you are discussing does indeed have a mental illness, and this is relevant to the discussion, it can be appropriate to bring this up, though you should keep in mind that a hunch is not evidence.
All this said, words like “crazy,” “psycho,” and the like are extremely common, and plenty of people (including feminists, progressives, and people dealing with mental illness themselves) use them casually without intending to stigmatize those with mental illnesses. There’s a difference between saying “crazy people should all be locked up” and “boy, Eraserhead sure was a crazy movie!”
If you’re someone who uses these terms casually, and doesn’t actually want all “crazy” people locked up, it doesn’t make you an evil person, but you need to refrain from doing it here. (Again, if you disagree with this policy, and feel a need to make this disagreement known, DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT IN THE COMMENTS, send me an email instead.)
If you are a regular commenter here, and someone uses a problematic term like “crazy” or “psycho,” remind them gently that this is not how we do things here, and send them a link to this comment policy (and possibly the Welcome Package as well). Unless what they have said is particularly egregious, do not insult them or question their motives.
If they argue, remind them that arguing about this rule is also not allowed. If they continue, do not argue back; send me or the mods a note and they will be banned. (This may take a little while, so be patient and please do not give in to the impulse to argue with them.)
If others have already reminded them of the rules, move on.
Again, if someone is acting really shitty in the comments, whether a troll or a regular, SEND THE MODS (or me) AN EMAIL.
One other thing to keep in mind:
MRAs read this blog. So I would strongly urge you to comment here using an anonymous handle that cannot be traced to your real identity. And to be very careful about revealing any sort of personal information on this blog. If you inadvertently post something using the wrong account, or that otherwise reveals personal information, let the mods know so we can remove those comments.
Oh, wait, one other other thought:
Enjoy yourself!
@WWTH
They’re chameleons in distress. The top one in particular is pretty angry.
@Aunt Edna,
Long story short, HTBS was present in the thread that preceded this one and took everyone’s words out of context (some commenters were deeply concerned that JudgyBitch was collecting donations to buy a crossbow to shoot feminists in the face, wondering if this should be reported to the police). HTBS accused everyone of conspiring to doxx and harass, calling this “unhinged” and so on. From what I see, when HTBS received pushback, they wondered over here and posted a teal deer about abuse. Then proceeded to use the resulting snark, annoyance and mockery (former thread being still fresh in everyone’s minds) to justify their sense of mistreatment.
Oops, not so short. So while the definition of abuse may be correct, HTBS’s use of it was not.
May go to bed soon. It’s hard seeing Mammothers fight (with respect to the fact that grievances need to be aired). You’re all awesomesauce.
Oops, meant to be Aunt Alias. My brain has gone completely chameleon. I mean bearded lizard. Oh forget it.
The comment I made was pointing out the absurdity of being concerned with ableism while still desperately trying to hold on to the right to abuse. Plenty of people did understand it that way, but some still don’t get it. Which I find somewhat telling.
Since the comment has been misrepresented here by katz I am copying it below.
Here is what I wrote:
Obviously, abuse is a social good. The Right To Abuse shall not be infringed. If commenters here cannot hurl insults and abuse at each other, the world will be a less enlightened place. This is a given.
The problem is when you unintentionally abuse someone whom you did not intend to abuse. Abuse should be used like a rifle, not a grenade. When you wound someone by calling them “schizo,” you also wound lots of other people you don’t even know, and who you likely would never want to hurt.
Intent does not matter. When straight men insult each other with the word “fa**ot,” it doesn’t matter if they never intended to hurt a gay person. When a gay person overhears the insult, the gay person is reminded that the straight world uses them as an example of the worst thing it is possible to be. That hurts. Probably more than it hurt the straight man who was the target.
Considerate abusers think about the collateral damage of their abuse. They inflict maximum pain on their intended victims while not harming innocent parties.
I unearthed this little gem from HTBS that has gone unnoticed thus far.
Bolding mine. If it works. I only guessed as to how you do the tags.
I’m wondering if that’s an admission?
http://gifsoup.com/view/253776/funny-sock-puppets-a-s.gif
@HTBS, I think because you chose to come in to a thread and, as your intro, defended a woman who was threatening unarmed strangers with paralysis AT BEST, you need to decide it’s time to take a break, think about why you wanted to defend that person, and apologize for doing so before you take another holier-than-thou stance about anything else on this blog. You do not have a leg to stand on right now, morally, ethically, or logically.
Oh gawd, I’m done for today. HTBS has drained my lifeblood.
Night all.
Misha and isidore13,
You have both misrepresented my position on this. My position is identical to David’s: Calling the police was going too far considering the facts.
Misha, this is at least the second time you have misrepresented my words just in this thread alone. Please stop. Yes, people were suggesting calling the police. This fact is not reasonably in dispute.
isidore13, I never defended Bloomfield. I said calling the cops on her was going too far. Since my position on the matter is identical to David’s, your admonishment to do some deep soul searching would logically have to apply to him as well. Please stop misrepresenting what I wrote, and, thank you, but I don’t require life lessons from you.
This kind of willful misrepresentation is what I’ve been talking about. It’s a terrible way to conduct a discussion.
@HTBS, David said he didn’t think it was appropriate. You accused everyone in that thread of doxxing her and called them unhinged (nice ableism btw), and accused everyone in that thread of doing it because they were on a witch hunt (though you didn’t use the word ‘witch hunt’). There’s a world of difference there. You also admitted earlier in this thread that your first posting was abusive. So yes, you need to stop being a sanctimonious hypocrite, and move on from this discussion, if not the whole blog,
Looong time lurker and first time commenter. I would like to second the suggestion that there be links to “101” sites. I know there is Google but how does someone who doesn’t have much background knowledge on the subject of feminism, etc. choose a good website? There are plenty of websites that could appear to be reasonable at first glance but to someone who is more versed in the topic it is filled with misrepresentations and outright lies. So links to reasonable websites would be advantageous.
I credit this blog especially with my growing awareness of issues that hadn’t really been on my radar before; specifically trans issues, racial issues, and, yes, my privilege as a cis white woman. I never would have learned the term cis except through reading blogs like this one. I have learned a lot and I am sure had I commented when I first found this blog (I have no idea how I found it because it was years ago) I probably would have screwed up and I am someone who wants to know more but I am also pretty sensitive to criticism so having someone gently point me to resources to learn more would be good. So thus the usefulness of “101” websites.
I have watched commenters come and go and the culture of the comment section change as the active members change. There have been some people in the past who were more likely to go on the offensive very quickly when someone posted something problematic. But it seems like most regulars really do want to give new people the benefit of the doubt but unfortunately it’s way too common for people who are called out on their language to become defensive which then creates this feedback loop. So that’s where after the original commenter starts doubling down it might be advisable to basically say, “go think about what you’ve done” and then stop responding after giving them resources. Maybe they can cool down and think and decide to come back after doing some reading and considering. But it seems like it does no good to continue to interact or escalate that type of conversation.
So I think there have been times in the past where it was more “cliquish” and I would have been more intimidated to jump in as a newbie. And depending on how horrible the topics that David posts about the nature of the comments can change. So a really bad post brings out anger and fear and at those times there is far less patience for perceived trolls but in a post about something that is more funny the commenters can joke and feel ok about dealing with someone who pushes buttons. And I know that some people don’t like when threads go off-topic but I actually always rather enjoyed that. I like how there can be parallel conversations going about things like pick-up artists and really good horror movies.
I have no guarantees I will ever post again but I will be out there. Watching you…dun dun dun
That should read ‘doxxing her even though they did not, actually, doxx her’ because they did not, actually, doxx her.
Essentially, to me, though I’m sure YMWV, you defended Bloomfield by accusing the people in that thread of wanting to call the police ‘just because they disagree’ with her politics instead of being legitimately concerned about someone gleefully describing the vicious physical horrors they would visit on someone on their property for reasons they could only guess at (you can’t tell a feminist by looking).
And I meant to leave you all with a collection of Uromastyx pictures. And I don’t know what I am doing.
http://www.factzoo.com/reptiles/uromastyx-spiky-tailed-desert-dweller.html
For the record, here is the whole of HTBS’s first post:
“Everything Bloomfield said about using violence was in the context of defending herself or her family against a violent attack by an intruder in her home”
You’d have to be awfully dense to take what JB said that way. All the “self-defense” crap was an obvious pretense to cover up the violence and hatred she was trying to appeal to in her “fanbase”..Trying to get people to buy her a deadly weapon and fantasizing about using it to permanently paralyze a feminist (not just any intruder) and using the hashtag “#shootafeministintheface” are a good reason to CONSIDER reporting her to the police — it’s not like they are going to send a swat team to her door on the basis of that.
A world where JB is a good person just trying to defend her home and family against violent feminists is the the world I live in.
So HTBS now wants us to think s/he’s a thoroughly reasonable person who just HAD to correct the way we unhinged people treat really nasty people in our — OUR — blog? HTBS stinks of bad faith. This is what the phrase “fuck off” was invented for.
Damn, “is not the world I live in”
Hi Mods/David: I just posted from my professional WP profile, please delete the comment in moderation!
Here’s the message again: OMG GrumpyOldMangina, where are your manners??
We say PLEASE around here…
http://data2.whicdn.com/images/68130523/large.gif
Wow, its so annoying that HTBS is posting in this thread, because they are trying to make it all about them. HTBS is clearly a tedium-troll of the worst degree and I henceforth declare that nothing I say about the culture of this board has anything to do with the way people respond to HTBS. HTBS and their ilk should get yelled at.
As a “dogpile accuser” I’d like to say that I myself do not support the use of ableist language and I really, truly believe that every regular here is acting in good faith and is not trying to be mean or exclusive when you respond to a person’s ableist comment. I don’t think there is any malice whatsoever when 10 people respond about the ableism in a comment. And that’s not sarcasm. (That wasn’t either.) I get the desire to explain a thing in a few different ways to get the message across, and I get the frustration in having the same conversation over and over again. And I get the pain that ableism causes. I do.
But, I think what some of you aren’t getting, is that, regardless of your good intentions, it can be really really scary to be the target of that, especially if you are a first-time poster who, like most people in the world, hasn’t heard of ableism. I’m talking about your average run-of-the-mill commenter who is linked to this site and is all excited to denounce a raging asshole like Roosh or whoever. Maybe they should have read the comment policy, and maybe they should have lurked, but for whatever reason they didn’t, and now they are, from their point of view, getting dragged. You guys didn’t mean to, you weren’t intending to be harsh, but that’s what it can feel like.
And yeah, that commenter who came and spouted off some casual ableism… they are hurting people inadvertently too. I’m not okay with that. They should get called out. But should they get called out 10 times? Should their transgression become an embarrassing topic of discussion? Well, maybe they should. We could decide that if we wanted to. But if we decided that, then we would be a less welcoming place to people who make mistakes. And people (like me) might complain about it. We’re not trying to be mean (well I’m not anyway).
I suffer from pretty bad social anxiety, and commenting here sometimes scares me. I commented in the dogpile thread and to be honest, I haven’t been back because that thread scares me. I don’t know if I’ll come back to this thread.
We have a lot of trolls here. I think the trolls are pretty obvious, or become obvious after a comment or too. I just wish we could do a better job of assuming good faith for newbies, or for otherwise decent commenters making mistakes, or just plain disagreeing.
I’m done with this site. Really, just done. @HadToBeSaid, you were a bit obnoxious at first, but you have never said anything misogynistic, homophobic, racist, ableist, etc. The responses you’ve been getting have been childish, at best. Really, a gif of someone trampling your avatar? Good thing you didn’t use your actual face or that might have come off as a threat.
There are people lurking who actually agree that you don’t deserve all this bullying you’ve been getting. And yes, it is bullying. We’re all just terrified to speak up because we know we’re going to get smacked down for saying anything.
Guys, this is cliquishness. Patting yourselves on the back for coming up with such masterful wordplay as “Had to Be Dead Between the Ears.” Calling a poster an MRA troll because they called out behavior that might potentially harm someone (calling the cops of JB.) Ugh. Is this middle school? I thought the MRAs were supposed to be the childish ones.
This is upsetting. This is really upsetting. My opinion of this site is just through the floor. No one’s gonna miss me if I leave. That’s fine. Feel free to post a gif waving me goodbye or someone gleefully eating popcorn, but this is the sort of behavior I was hoping would be toned down with the new comments sections.
@NothingClever
I completely agree. I had to park my self-esteem at the door and not care what anyone says to return to posting here. It shouldn’t be like that. This thread went down the tubes like the JB thread did.
Yes, it’s bullying and it needs to stop.
NC is right. People reading this who dislike how this is going are afraid to speak, and stating they are leaving the site, because you all are doing exactly what you were just asked to not to – dog piling, troll feeding, name calling.
I am an abuse and bullying and online harassment survivor, and people have told me all my life to just “toughen up” and take it. Well, being called names as a kid and beaten up by adults didn’t actually make name calling online hurt less, if anything, it hurts more. So stop saying name calling isn’t abusive, because it literally is, and you should be above that and no one deserves it.
In one of my first comments here I had one person say it was “bizarre” to say Chicago is one of the most segregated cities in the U.S. When I pointed out how wrong-headed that reaction was, I was told that no one had said anything wrong, even though the comment was still right there. When I posted links to support my point, and admitted against my better judgement that I live there my entire life , no one backed down or apologized or even seemed to read it with a few exceptions I’m very grateful for. This was all on a blog about Dylan Fucking Roof. The fact is, the only way to assume Chicago is not very segregated is to have literally done no research on the subject and to not ever have lived there. So the people who were saying that knew they were speaking based on only assumptions. That is WhiteSplaining.
Since then, I have felt like I can’t talk about racism here. And this really shouldn’t be a place where racism is denied based on assumptions. But the real problem for me was the mockery. It is cliqueish, it is Abuse Culture bullshit, it is not a safe and respectful atmosphere, and it doesn’t have to be like that. If someone is pissing you off so much it’s one thing to say they are being bigoted, but it’s another to be snarky and rude at anyone who you disagree with, and to pile on and go on and on and on hating on one person. Please just stop that.
@Luzbelitx: Thanks for correcting me. Somewhere out there my mother is shaking her head about the fact that I forgot the “Please” that should always go with “Fuck off.”
@KL
I’m so sorry that’s been your experience.
Thank you AA. <3
Don't worry, I'm good now, good job, safe house, good health, mostly offline these days. I can read this blog without reading or writing comments here. Just looking forward to the day I find a website where that kind of thing isn't the culture, because I do enjoy discussions otherwise. Peace.
You’re welcome, KL. All the best to you.
@KL: Nobody disputed the fact that Chicago is quite segregated. The dispute was whether it was the most segregated city in the US. Nobody disputes the fact that there is serious racism. If you had said, “I’ve lived all my life in Chicago, and it has terrible problems with racism,” nobody would have had the slightest disagreement.
Most parts of the US have a poor to abysmal record where segregation is concerned — it doesn’t seem to me at least that arguing about which city is the worst is very fruitful.