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New Comment Policy

Cutest mod ever!
Cutest mod ever!

As promised, here is the new and I think improved comments policy.

It’s a bit long, but that’s in part because I’ve included sections that are designed to hopefully eliminate some of the contentious and often repetitive debates that have erupted in the past over the issue of ableism — in particular the use of words like “crazy” and “psycho” and the like. In the future, I am hoping that we can simply link new commenters to the policy (in particular, the “notes on ‘crazy'”) section and avoid a lot of the drama.

This policy is stricter towards those who “dig in” and insist on using problematic terms even though they’ve been informed of the rules about them; if they’ve been linked to the comments policy and persist in arguing or behaving badly, they will be banned. I’m also asking regulars to rein in their language in criticizing first-time offenders, and to not argue back with them if they persist. (There’s not much point to it, because offenders who persist will be banned.)

Not all of the changes and additions to the comments policy are in response to the ableism debates; I’ve also taken into consideration other controversies here, as well as comments policies on other blogs and broader discussions online about the best ways to moderate sites.

One other change: I will also put regular reminders in posts that all new commenters should read the comments policy before posting.

I am very much cognizant that many people who regularly read this blog — some of them who comment here regularly, some of whom are lurkers or only occasional commenters — are frustrated by the flame wars that have erupted here from time to time. I am frustrated as well, and troubled by the personal attacks I’ve seen in these discussions, directed not at trolls but at other commenters here in good faith.

I hope this new comment policy can end some of these flame wars before they start. If it doesn’t, I will (reluctantly) have to resort to shutting threads down and even suspending some commenters.

So here is the new comments policy. Discuss. Suggest improvements. Be civil.

Welcome prospective commenters!

Unmoderated internet forums quickly become shitheaps, so we have a few rules here. One thing to remember right off the bat: this is a feminist blog, designed (mostly) for a feminist audience. You don’t have to be a particular kind of feminist to post here, or even a feminist at all, but you do need to keep this in mind.

First comments from new commenters – or old commenters changing their name – automatically go to moderation. Regardless of your politics, if you start off here with a jerky or tediously argumentative comment, or if you trigger some other red flag for me, your first comment will never see the light of day.

MRAs, MGTOWs, PUAs, Red Pillers, “Equalists,” #GamerGaters and the like: you will be allowed to post here, if your first comment is amusing and/or not especially egregious, and if you more-or-less behave.

But I reserve the right to revoke your posting privileges at any time for any reason. You have a right to your opinions, but you don’t have a right to our attention. I am especially not interested in hearing your thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian (or some other target of angry dude harassment online).

Oh, and I sometimes set aside threads here as “no troll, no MRA” threads. If you post in one of them, even politely, you will be banned.

If you’re NOT an MRA or a troll, welcome!

You’re who this blog is really meant for. The comments too, provided you can participate in a generally constructive manner and can treat those you disagree with here with a certain degree of respect. Snark is fine; attacks and accusations and namecalling, not so much. 

If someone – whether a troll or a regular commenter — is acting badly enough to possibly warrant a suspension or ban, EMAIL ME OR THE MODS. That’s the fastest and most effective way to get it taken care of.

Some slightly more specific guidelines.

No bigotry (misogyny, racism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, body shaming, and so forth). No slurs. I’ve put the worst ones in the mod filter, so comments containing them won’t appear. If you want to discuss someone else’s use of a slur, disguise the word so your comment won’t get caught by the filter – though if you do this as a “clever” way to use a slur yourself, you may well find yourself banned.

No threats or violent comments. That includes telling someone to “die in a fire” or remarking that so-and-so would probably be better off dead. This rule is in effect even when you are talking about vile misogynistic shitbags.

No gratuitously nasty personal attacks. Yes, discussions can sometimes get a bit contentious. You’re not required to be perfectly nice all the time. Just don’t be a total asshole. And don’t drag your disagreements with someone into every thread.

No doxxing or posting of personal identifying information. Don’t spread rumors or speculate without evidence on the possible criminal activity of anyone else, whether this is another commenter or a misogynistic shitbag.

No rape apologism, pedo apologism, victim blaming, and so forth.

Don’t misgender anyone. If you do it accidentally, apologize and get it right the next time. If you do it deliberately, you’re out.

Don’t attack anyone for their sexual preferences or kinks, so long as they involve consenting adults. Refrain from weird or creepy sexual oversharing. Whatever your opinion of sex work, don’t disparage sex workers, or use words like “whore” as a pejorative. (Feel free to talk about MRAs who are using the word pejoratively.)

Don’t attack people for their religion or their lack of religion.

Don’t be a mansplainer or indeed any kind of ‘splainer. That is, don’t lecture anyone on something they know better than you, particularly if that thing is their lived experience.

Don’t post too much or try to make threads all about you. Try to avoid drama.

If you have personal issues you want to bring up, that’s fine! Use the troll-free open threads set aside for personal stuff. I’ll post a new one every couple of weeks. (I also start threads regularly to discuss big events in the news that people here are concerned about; feel free to email if you think something has happened that warrants one.)

No sockpuppeting. No lying. No misrepresentation of yourself or other people. No posting in bad faith – e.g. posting friendly comments here while trashing the site and/or the people on it elsewhere.

No pile-ons. If a number of people have already offered the same criticism of another commenter, don’t add more comments to the pile.

All this said, you don’t have to be perfect to comment here. As sociologist Katherine Cross (@Quinnae_Moon) has noted, very few people arrive “fully formed to the world of activism, the perfect agents of change, somehow entirely cognizant of the ever shifting morass of rules and prescribed or proscribed words, phrases, argot, and thought.”

I want this blog to be open to all those who genuinely oppose misogyny and bigotry more generally, even those who may slip up from time to time.

Still, if you’re new here, or new to feminism, and the regulars here are telling you to avoid certain words, or pointing out something that you’re doing that’s problematic, don’t take it as a personal attack (unless it is couched as a personal attack, in which case email me). If they tell you to avoid particular language, uh, avoid using that language, and don’t explain that in your country calling a person a something-or-other is perfectly fine.

You don’t have to agree with all the rules and/or cultural norms here; but while you’re commenting here you are expected to respect them. If you think a rule is really, really wrong or ridiculous, don’t argue about it in the comments; send me an email about it.

And this brings us to the issue of ableism, which has been a contentious one here.

NOTES ON “CRAZY”

Avoid “crazy” talk. That is, using words like “crazy,” “psycho” and the like to describe the terrible ideas and actions of people you don’t like. It’s stigmatizing to those dealing with mental illness, who really don’t need the extra indignity of being compared to MRAs. Try using words like “ridiculous” or “absurd” or “terrible” instead. Call someone an “asshole” instead of a “psycho.” Try to avoid internet diagnoses of mental illness, and don’t use autism or Aspergers as an excuse for someone’s shitty behavior.

Saying someone is “paranoid,” “delusional,” or “narcissistic” is fine, if you don’t mean it as a diagnosis; these are useful descriptive terms.

If there is evidence that someone you are discussing does indeed have a mental illness, and this is relevant to the discussion, it can be appropriate to bring this up, though you should keep in mind that a hunch is not evidence.

All this said, words like “crazy,” “psycho,” and the like are extremely common, and plenty of people (including feminists, progressives, and people dealing with mental illness themselves) use them casually without intending to stigmatize those with mental illnesses. There’s a difference between saying “crazy people should all be locked up” and “boy, Eraserhead sure was a crazy movie!”

If you’re someone who uses these terms casually, and doesn’t actually want all “crazy” people locked up, it doesn’t make you an evil person, but you need to refrain from doing it here. (Again, if you disagree with this policy, and feel a need to make this disagreement known, DO NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT IN THE COMMENTS, send me an email instead.)

If you are a regular commenter here, and someone uses a problematic term like “crazy” or “psycho,” remind them gently that this is not how we do things here, and send them a link to this comment policy (and possibly the Welcome Package as well). Unless what they have said is particularly egregious, do not insult them or question their motives.

If they argue, remind them that arguing about this rule is also not allowed. If they continue, do not argue back; send me or the mods a note and they will be banned. (This may take a little while, so be patient and please do not give in to the impulse to argue with them.)

If others have already reminded them of the rules, move on.

Again, if someone is acting really shitty in the comments, whether a troll or a regular, SEND THE MODS (or me) AN EMAIL.

One other thing to keep in mind:

MRAs read this blog. So I would strongly urge you to comment here using an anonymous handle that cannot be traced to your real identity. And to be very careful about revealing any sort of personal information on this blog. If you inadvertently post something using the wrong account, or that otherwise reveals personal information, let the mods know so we can remove those comments.

Oh, wait, one other other thought:

Enjoy yourself!

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Drezden
Drezden
9 years ago

I’m getting really annoyed by all the denials and demands for proof. Instead of accepting the word of several people that this place gets too harsh, people are straining to rationalize it; e.g., you must have been arguing about ableism, you must have “fucked up”, you must have been a newbie, etc. (No, WWTH hasn’t debunked all the claims.)

And I am tired of blanket accusations without any concrete examples of what exactly is wrong.

Am I doing something wrong? Who the fuck knows. Nobody will provide any details that I can check against my, or anyone’s behaviour. Maybe, just maybe, we’re not rationalizing shit. Maybe we’re actually concerned about this but don’t have any actionable advice to work from.

booburry
9 years ago

Dude, you’re clearly bothering a lot of people here. I haven’t seen anyone come to your defense, unless I missed it. Is this fun for you? Does it maybe seem like there is enough tension going on around here without your annoying ass stirring the shit pot? Jesus.

booburry
9 years ago

Just to be clear that was aimed at Shit Has to Be Slung and not you ,Drezden (whom I very much agree with, btw).

Luzbelitx
9 years ago

All of this is false

Prove. It. The words are right there in your old comments, go look them up.

Go ahead and prove me wrong.

Show us whatever you posted before anyone called you any names. I’ll wait.

Orion
9 years ago

I’m not sure I understand what “namecalling” means. The only interpretations I can think of are that it either refers to “names” that are really labels like “mra” or “misogynist” or that Troll du Jour is right, and it refers to mocking nicknames.We do both of those here regularly and always have; I don’t think David would want to stop either of those things, but I’m not sure what he is getting at.

andiexist
andiexist
9 years ago

@HTBS

A time you lied: Rudely dismissing WWTH, then claiming you’d never talked to specific people when I commented about it.

A time you sealioned: I’d say “this whole freaking thread,” but I doubt you’ll accept that. I’ll go with “the first comment you made on this thread.”

A time you gaslit: When you went on about how you only communicated abusively because we’re all horrible horrible abusers. And then acted like admitting you did something wrong absolves you of the hypocrisy, if not of blame. That sort of person *does* apologize — some variants, anyway. A good deal of them are *always* sorry.

You’re also a tone policer. And you know what? I’ve tried to be civil, which either got me ignored or whined at about how OMGMEAN we are. Go take the nope train out of here. You commented once in bad faith, and everything after that was complaining about our meanness. Self-fulfilling prophecy. Cause and effect.

@everyone else

Brain bleach delivery! Have a gronkie!

http://orig09.deviantart.net/9c02/f/2013/097/f/4/baby_gronckle_by_alexaanime1-d60s3uz.jpg

Luzbelitx
9 years ago

@Orion

Their point is we’re all meany meanies so why do we jump on them for being mean as well, even though the have never been mean at all. In their lives.

andiexist
andiexist
9 years ago

@HTBS

Oh, and your willful obtuseness? See my example of you lying. Your response to my calling you out on dismissing one of us (and ignoring me, though I was mainly joking there) was to say you’d never addressed anyone in particular. In a rather incomprehensible fashion. Two or so comments after you did so, and responding as if I’d said something different.

Unimpressed dragon: unimpressed.

http://i.imgur.com/RP6Kv6x.gif

katz
katz
9 years ago

I’m not sure I understand what “namecalling” means. The only interpretations I can think of are that it either refers to “names” that are really labels like “mra” or “misogynist” or that Troll du Jour is right, and it refers to mocking nicknames.We do both of those here regularly and always have; I don’t think David would want to stop either of those things, but I’m not sure what he is getting at.

I was wondering about this too. I’m assuming he means that he doesn’t want people to call names in arguments with non-trolls, but I honestly have never seen that happen. As written, it would require a big departure from how we’ve been behaving in the past. But I’m not going to make name-calling the hill I die on.

Orion
9 years ago

@Luzbelitx, I was responding to this paragraph from David’s policy, actually:

You’re who this blog is really meant for. The comments too, provided you can participate in a generally constructive manner and can treat those you disagree with here with a certain degree of respect. Snark is fine; attacks and accusations and namecalling, not so much.

My reaction is the same as yours — that it’s a really vague way of gesturing at “meanness” — which is why I’m really surprised to see this language used in an actual policy. Same goes for “accusations,” actually. Accusations of what? The most common accusations I can think of are accusing people of bad faith, of trolling, of misrepresenting their identity, or of being a stealth MRA. Are those against the rules now? I kind of hope not. I think some people make those accusations too freely, but it would be kind of ridiculous to say that we can never challenge someone’s good faith.

Spindrift
Spindrift
9 years ago

For what it’s worth, I’ve found it to be fairly welcoming here. And I’m fairly easily intimidated.
I’ve put my foot in my mouth once or twice, but I gave myself a much harder time over that than anyone here did. I’d also like to chime in on being grateful for the efforts made by people who regularly call out ableism, I don’t always have the confidence to do so myself so it’s reassuring to know there’s people who won’t let it slide.
I appreciate David putting the effort into adjusting the comment policy, hope linking to it will cut down at least some potentially lenghty arguments/derails in future.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
9 years ago

I believe the name calling is everyone calling Had to be Said “Has to be Trolling”, “Had to be Stupid”, etc.

Luzbelitx
9 years ago

@Orion

Sorry, I was riled up with the troll speech and didn’t mean it about the policy, joke’s on me.

Here, have a dragon:

http://www.animated-gifs.eu/fantastic-dragons/0653.gif

berdache from a previous life

@ Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

“Oh yeah, I should apologise to you; I think that was the one and only time I really did jump to “Troll” on the first mistake. I thought your avatar was aimed at us and misjudged badly. Sorry about that. ^^;”

Thanks, that means a lot. And that post deserved the abuse it got. Think I’m done apologizing for it, unless somebody out their still needs me to apologize to them specifically. Just let me know if you do.

I think this blog does important things and you & the other regulars are a vital part of that.

I want to be a part of that work.

I think the good guys are winning. 150 years ago, there was slavery in the US, 100 years ago, woman couldn’t vote, 50 years ago, gays couldn’t marry. Culturally speaking, that is incredibly rapid progress- look how long the older cultures of the world stayed the same.

For all the appalling things happening today, there are far fewer than they used to be. There is still so much work to be done, but there are 1000’s doing the work. The internet may allow for festering pits like AVFM and the like, it also allows for ordinary people to work together in a way never before possible.

When the older white male fundamentalist christian complains that his way of life is ending, I say, yes, yes it is and it’s a GOOD thing.

Women and minorities have gained so much strength over the last few years. In a few years, whites won’t be a majority anymore in the US. The churches that sprang into being to legitimize slavery are dying out, losing members every year.

I believe people are fundamentally good. I believe that we can learn to live in peace with our neighbors. And that we should mock the MRAs until that happens.

Had To Be Said
Had To Be Said
9 years ago

andiexist,

There’s no lie there at all. I was telling WWTH that I was not referring to WWTH in my previous general comment. I was being polite — saying that I was not trying to get into a fight by accusing a specific commenter of anything, including WWTH. And that was true. I was never trying to single out anyone and was in fact studiously avoiding it, so as not to invite a flame war. To my knowledge, there is no lie, by anyone, in that whole exchange.

Sealioning. No, I don’t accept that I am sealioning here in this thread. I am engaging in reasonable argument in good faith. I’ve never asked a question here with the intention to annoy or harass. I don’t do that. Please don’t mistake not disappearing in response to abuse for sealioning. It’s not the same thing.

Gaslighting. What you describe simply isn’t gaslighting. I’ve never tried to manipulate anyone here into believing they are delusional. If every disagreement about facts is gaslighting, then the term pretty much loses all meaning. Gaslighting involves tricking someone into a false belief about their own mental state. I don’t do that and never would. It’s evil. And that’s why it’s kind of a big deal to accuse someone of it.

Willful obtuseness. Again the example you use just seems to be a misunderstanding, possibly due to ninja-ing. I don’t understand what lie you think I told or what you thought I was trying to gain by telling it. You seem to think I was trying to lie about something that happened in the public record minutes before. Why would I do that? Anyone could scroll up and see for themselves, for one thing, and I don’t see what rhetorical advantage I would gain even if successful. I think this is just a misunderstanding based on an assumption of bad faith. I wasn’t being willfully obtuse — I still don’t understand what the lie was supposed to be or why I would attempt it. I honestly don’t understand what I am supposed to have done.

Tone policing. Nope. Supporting a prohibition on personal attacks is not tone policing. Personal attacks are not a tone. Lots and lots of forums have figured this out before. You can use any tone you want while addressing someone’s ideas instead of getting personal.

I have also never commented here in bad faith. I really don’t think it’s fair to just use your imagination as evidence for an accusation like that. Accusing someone of bad faith isn’t merely an opinion, it’s an accusation against another person. You should have evidence for that. And I think your assumption of bad faith has led you to conclude I have done things I definitely have not done.

Luzbelitx
9 years ago

Dude, no one’s buying it. Drop it.

weirwoodtreehugger
9 years ago

I’m getting really annoyed by all the denials and demands for proof. Instead of accepting the word of several people that this place gets too harsh, people are straining to rationalize it; e.g., you must have been arguing about ableism, you must have “fucked up”, you must have been a newbie, etc. (No, WWTH hasn’t debunked all the claims.)

The reason that I, and others want examples and quotes is because it’s both impossible to defend against a vague claim of “you were cliquish/mean/dogpiling” and because if someone has done something wrong, it’s impossible to change if we don’t know what specifically we did wrong.

I don’t really expect you or anyone to scour months of threads to find a link, but you seem to very clearly remember this time you were hurt by a pile on here. Especially if you’ve clearly remembered that I was part of it. If you don’t provide a link or at least detail what the argument was about, what am I or anyone else supposed to do about it? I can promise to uphold the new comment policy but I’m not going to flog myself over an unsubstantiated accusation either and I don’t think it’s fair to expect anyone to.

That’s why I said that if anyone feels somebody’s conduct is inappropriate, it should be dealt with as it happens. Either call it out or email David. It doesn’t help anyone to hold a grudge and call us mean. Actually, I’ve always thought you were a valuable poster and I’ve noticed and appreciated you doing great MRA takedowns on other sites. I’m actually pretty surprised you’ve been thinking of me as a mean girl for who knows how long and I certainly can’t change that opinion if you won’t tell me what I did.

I’m also not sure why I’m responsible for debunking every claim? I can’t prove we’re not cliquish because you can’t prove a negative.

As for the clique accusation, the fact that newcomers announce themselves and are ignored might have something to do with it.

I can’t speak for everybody else, but if I notice a new commenter who hasn’t been welcomed yet, I will welcome them. But first time posts go into moderation and if David isn’t online for a while there can be quite a lag time. I don’t think anyone replied to my first post. I got welcomed and noticed maybe the second or third time I posted.

Mewens
Mewens
9 years ago

Jesus tapdancing Christ.

Had to be Said, you ride in here with a glib insult and a name clearly meant to show you’re here to educate us on The One True Way; you haven’t made even a token effort to join the community. Yet here you are, lecturing us on how we ought to talk to one another. Doesn’t that seem just a touch presumptuous?

You’ve been called out by every regular poster, with varying degrees of patience, but you still insist on saying that we need to conform to you. Now you’re telling us what the comments policy means? Newsflash, dude: You’re an outsider, and you’re not making any effort to fit in here, let alone understand the culture here. Why should we change for a rando on the ‘net? We were getting along just fine before you got here, thanks.

andiexist
andiexist
9 years ago

@Robert Brockway

Hello there! Just remember that trolls get mocked, so be good or be entertaining. 😉

@Everyone

Havva bearded dragon.

http://a-z-animals.com/media/animals/images/original/bearded_dragon1.jpg

Had To Be Said
Had To Be Said
9 years ago

Yet here you are, lecturing us on how we ought to talk to one another. Doesn’t that seem just a touch presumptuous?

It does, yes. Still, I think this place would be better without personal attacks. I think it’s a really good rule.

You’re an outsider, and you’re not making any effort to fit in here, let alone understand the culture here.

Actually, I did try to fit in. I was abusive at first and got very little flak for it. Almost none.

But I very quickly tired of it and started arguing more reasonably. That’s when I got into trouble.

I do understand the culture here. It’s “heap abuse on anyone who disagrees and make them go away.”

Change would be good.

andiexist
andiexist
9 years ago

@HTBS

” I was telling WWTH that I was not referring to WWTH in my previous general comment”

Is that what you call blowing off a response? Not that that answers what I said at all — you told *me,* after you addressed her in your comment, that you had never addressed a specific person in your comments. You know what? Add me to the list of people who are fed up with your willful inability to follow what anyone else is saying. I’m done with you.

http://img09.deviantart.net/4725/i/2011/359/6/8/waving_bearded_dragon_by_roxilolaphotography-d4k6u0w.png

Mewens
Mewens
9 years ago

Well, I’m glad you’re aware that you’re a self-appointed arbiter of good discussion. Don’t you have some racist or MRA forums you can do your good work on? Because we’re obviously a lost cause.

andiexist
andiexist
9 years ago

Holy something, I just realized something. Someone called me a regular, and suddenly images worked for me. I… guess WordPress listened. O _ o

isidore13
isidore13
9 years ago

@Had to be said, you admit you were abusive when you first came here and now you’re shocked – SHOCKED – that we all actually remember that and so all your comments are suspect? Seriously, think about that for a minute. Think about how often people come in here trolling, too. And like Mewens said, think about your handle in relation to all of that.

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