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antifeminism antifeminist women attention seeking empathy deficit entitled babies evil SJWs FemRAs judgybitch misogyny MRA things that aren't satire threats YouTube

MRA JudgyBitch: Give me money for a crossbow so I can shoot feminists in the face!

Janet Bloomfield — the slur-spewing A Voice for Men “social media director” better known as JudgyBitch — has launched a rather unique fundraiser on Patreon: In addition to funds to spend on better videomaking equipment, she’s asking her supporters to send her $800 for a crossbow so she can “shoot the feminists in the face.”

JB isn’t joking; she’s an avid bowhunter, and she has her crossbow all picked out. 

Of course JB claims that the weapon will only be used in self-defense, in case some angry feminist shows up at her door with an axe or something. But in the video above, posted to her Patreon page, she describes her fantasy of using it to maim or kill a feminist in detail, and with great relish.

She starts waxing poetic about what she calls the “angel of death crossbow” at 8:32 in the video above. Here are some of the highlights.

In this first clip, she describes what she would do to any “little brave feminist” who showed up at her door unarmed but seeking a confrontation.

The tl;dr? She would shoot them in the gut with her crossbow, dead center, in an attempt to sever their spine and leave them paralyzed. “You’re gonna drop,” she says, “and you’re never getting back up again.”

As for those who show up at her door with “a hammer, an axe, a knife, a gun” or other weapon, she promises to shoot them dead without warning. “I would love to do it with that beautiful angel of death crossbow,” she says, with a certain manic glee. “Let’s buy Janet a crossbow so she can shoot the feminists in the face!”

MRAs, male and female, seem to spend an awful lot of time and energy fantasizing about doing great harm to their opponents. But this is the first time I’ve seen one actually set up a Patreon fundraiser so they can buy a deadly weapon.

H/T — @TakedownMRAs 

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Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

I don’t think the post I was talking about was referring to people you were already friends with, or family in Flint’s case, but rather strangers you were interacting with for the first time, hence the “possible worthwhile friendship” bit.

It was pretty much similar to the rants we had on here about “Why are you all so mean to me?! I contribute to the discussion! Why aren’t you focusing on that instead of calling me out for shitty behavior!”

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

freemage | July 20, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Side-Note: There has been no ableism derail on this thread. Rather, what there was, was a marineracheal derail. Seriously, look at the posts.

[…]

Then marinerachael posted, and everything changed. It suddenly became all about her, and about her disappointment that a board with no official moderators (but a fairly established community standard, which is noted in multiple places and would have been witnessed by anyone who observed the site for a time before posting here would have seen), somehow resulted in multiple similar messages.

And even then, there was still a lot of discussion about how to better improve awareness of the community standard. But MR wasn’t having any of that; every post after that point was all about how she was not properly entertained.

And there it is. Well said.

katz
katz
5 years ago

Serious suggestion: How about we write a boilerplate response to first-time ableist remarks by new posters? It can be something we all agree is clear but not overly harsh, and it can link to the comment policy. That way anyone feeling short-tempered will be less likely to respond angrily, and subsequent posters will feel less need to add their own responses because the thing we’ve all agreed to say has already been said.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

There’s a very simple answer to all this discussion about ableism as Al Murray’s Pub Landlord would easily explain:

http://stagevu.com/img/thumbnail/bmrxooplgjxabig.jpg

freemage
5 years ago

katz: Once David has clarified the rules in the actual commenting policy, i’d suggest the following:

Ableist post, or segment that qualifies as ableist

[Link to Comment Policy, perhaps even directly to that portion of the policy, if David includes a hotlink-marker-thingy]
Please follow the rules re: ableist comments, particularly those pertaining to mental illness. Thank you.

No explanations or arguments–those will be at the link. No invective; that can be reserved for those who double-down. If folks get ninja’ed, then if folks want they can simply note they were ninja’ed and we can move on.

If they double-down, of course, we give them to pandapool with a choice of condiments.

(Obviously, I kid. The sorts of people who do this sort of thing are far too gamey to be eaten.)

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

Why do people think I am good at tearing people up when Paradoxical is the best and baddest of us all?

Is it because I’m a panda and she’s a frog contradiction? Or is she such a baddest contradiction you have to put me up instead because the paradoxicalness of it all?

freemage
5 years ago

Pandapool: I was going for avocation rather than aptitude. PI may be better at it, but you certainly seem to enjoy it more. @_~

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

comment image

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Paradoxical

Every troll-tearing post you do, I’m like

http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.41428005.7390/flat,800×800,075,f.jpg

Belladonna993
Belladonna993
5 years ago

[Link to Comment Policy, perhaps even directly to that portion of the policy, if David includes a hotlink-marker-thingy]
Please follow the rules re: ableist comments, particularly those pertaining to mental illness. Thank you.

Just my two cents, but I think it might also be a good idea to link to some of the material in the welcome package, and include some sort of strongly worded warning not to double down.

Maybe something along the lines of

“Please read the linked material and do not respond with any defense of your language.”

Anyway, that might not be quite right, but it would be nice to try to head off some of the doubling down that often follows requests when they are too polite.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

You know, I was going to find a gif of that “It’s a paradox you moron, there is no answer!” line from Portal 2, and I was re-watching some of the Wheatley bits, and I came to the realization that he sounds an awful lot like an MRA.

[SPOILERS]

Specifically in that scene after Chell replaces GLaDOS with him.

Wheatley: “Do you have any idea how good this feels?
I did this. Tiny, little Wheatley did this!”

GLaDOS: “You didn’t do anything…she did all the work!”

Wheatley:“Oh really? That’s what the two of you think, is it? Oh, well maybe it’s time I did something then!”

[…] (turns GLaDOS into a potato)

Wheatley: “And don’t think I’m not on to you too, lady. You know what you are? Selfish. I’ve done nothing but sacrifice to get us here, and what have you sacrificed? Nothing. Zero. All you’ve done is boss me around! Well, now who’s the boss? Who’s the boss? it’s me.

And of course, the fact of the matter is Chell carried him around everywhere while he gave the occasional hint as to what Chell needed to do, and she had hoped to get her freedom after she put Wheatley in charge. Chell did all of the heavy lifting to get them to where they were. She did all the work, as GLaDOS said.

[/SPOILERS]

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I’m fine with a simple copy pasta for first offenders if
1) there is no tone policing or whining about boredom with regards to the way we deal with repeat offenders.

2) this only applies to the newbies who make a relatively innocuous post. Not anyone who claims to be a mental health professional, as they should really know better. Not anyone who makes a particularly horrible comment, like using the r word or saying that somebody should be forcibly locked away. Not obvious trolls.

3) If this is something we agree on eventually, people should recognize that it will take time for the news to filter down to all the sporadic posters. My only real concern with a policy designed to be a little more patient with new posters who don’t know the community standards is that this could be used to constantly troll police regulars. I’d hate to see the people who pop up from time to time to scold us about being mean to ableist posters look for and take any excuse to excessively tone police everyone.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Aw, format fail. I forgot that blockquotes automagically italicize everything.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

JACKIE I GOOGLED THAT PHRASE AND WHY WOULD YOU SAY THAT?!

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

weirwoodtreehugger | July 20, 2015 at 5:12 pm
I’m fine with a simple copy pasta for first offenders if
1) there is no tone policing or whining about boredom with regards to the way we deal with repeat offenders.

2) this only applies to the newbies who make a relatively innocuous post. Not anyone who claims to be a mental health professional, as they should really know better. Not anyone who makes a particularly horrible comment, like using the r word or saying that somebody should be forcibly locked away. Not obvious trolls.

3) If this is something we agree on eventually, people should recognize that it will take time for the news to filter down to all the sporadic posters. My only real concern with a policy designed to be a little more patient with new posters who don’t know the community standards is that this could be used to constantly troll police regulars. I’d hate to see the people who pop up from time to time to scold us about being mean to ableist posters look for and take any excuse to excessively tone police everyone.

I second this. I don’t want this to be used as an out for anyone looking to straight up be an asshole.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Paradoxical

Well, I said it as a joke, but I’m confused on whether you’re truly shocked or not.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

Also I’m an asshole, as established. An asshole who likes to snark and do video game references.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I’ve noticed quite a few people have come out of lurkerdom to say how much they appreciate that regulars here speak out against casual ableism and how it makes them feel like this is a safer space than most for those with mental illness.

I have a question for those who think we dogpile on ableist comments too much. Are the comfort, well being and feelings of these posters, most of whom are likely either not mentally ill at all or have mental ill issues that are mild enough to not be deemed crazy very often (I’d include myself in this group) more important than the comfort, well being and feelings of either the people with mental illness who are fighting constantly to make the space safer for those with mental illness or for those lurkers or regulars who are not up for the fight but benefit those efforts? If so, why?

It just seems like we’re being asked to prioritize a privileged group over an oppressed group. To me, that’s a big intersectionality fail and pretty equivalent to the people who like to do the “what about the menz?” derails.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Ugh. I guess I’m tired, because I see a lot of weird little errors in my posts. Hopefully the gist is still clear.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

I don’t have a dog in this particular fight but I think it’s nice that there’s at least one place that people who are hurt by those words can hang around and know that such words won’t be casually tossed around.

For people who do like to use those words in a colloquial sense then there’s a space for them too; it’s called ‘everywhere else’.

katz
katz
5 years ago

I’m fine with a simple copy pasta for first offenders if
1) there is no tone policing or whining about boredom with regards to the way we deal with repeat offenders.

2) this only applies to the newbies who make a relatively innocuous post. Not anyone who claims to be a mental health professional, as they should really know better. Not anyone who makes a particularly horrible comment, like using the r word or saying that somebody should be forcibly locked away. Not obvious trolls.

3) If this is something we agree on eventually, people should recognize that it will take time for the news to filter down to all the sporadic posters. My only real concern with a policy designed to be a little more patient with new posters who don’t know the community standards is that this could be used to constantly troll police regulars. I’d hate to see the people who pop up from time to time to scold us about being mean to ableist posters look for and take any excuse to excessively tone police everyone.

Naturally. The goal is that we have a standard way of dealing with this stuff so no one will have a reason to drop thread filibusters about how we deal with this stuff. Anyone who does will obviously be themselves the derailer.

Katherine XII
Katherine XII
5 years ago

Another lurker-ish poster chiming in: the comments sections of We Hunted The Mammoth are among the only ones I’ve ever felt safe/healthy reading. A bit part of that is the strict policing of casual ableism.

That’s all. Those that contribute to the safety of this space for the mentally divergent have my sincerest thanks.

Imperator Kahlo
Imperator Kahlo
5 years ago

As a recent delurker I’ve been a little hesitant about posting in this thread, but I do want to contribute my thanks to those who push back against ableism. I learned about it lurking here, at a time when I was beginning to struggle with mental health issues myself. It was incredibly comforting to realise that there were people actively fighting to reduce stigma, and that was part of what kept me reading here. Thank you.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I read this post just now and oh boy is it relevant to the subject at hand.
https://feministaspie.wordpress.com/2015/07/18/the-illusion-of-neutral/

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
5 years ago

I have a question for those who think we dogpile on ableist comments too much. Are the comfort, well being and feelings of these posters, most of whom are likely either not mentally ill at all or have mental ill issues that are mild enough to not be deemed crazy very often (I’d include myself in this group) more important than the comfort, well being and feelings of either the people with mental illness who are fighting constantly to make the space safer for those with mental illness or for those lurkers or regulars who are not up for the fight but benefit those efforts? If so, why?

To be clear, dogpiling doesn’t only occur when ableist comments are made. For example, I saw it happen when someone with a quirky way of communicating raised suspicion even though he said nothing objectionable. It still bothers me that he slunk away wounded. (IIRC, his name was Jared.) I was dogpiled, it wasn’t about ableism, and it was very hurtful. There are lots of situations where dogpiling occurs (obvious trolls excluded) yet every time someone complains about it, the resulting invective is too defensive and too aggressive. It’s been like that for years.

To answer the question, I disagree with the assumption that people who complain about dogpiling are not mentally ill. Being dogpiled feels like group rejection and it’s worse for those of us who are depressed, anxious, or have low self-esteem. Don’t you think that makes people feel at least as unsafe as being exposed to ableism?

I’m not defending ableism AT ALL and don’t appreciate having my opinions written off as that.

NothingClever
NothingClever
5 years ago

I don’t think any of this disagreement is about the *right* to use ableist language. As a sufferer of mental illness myself, I really appreciate the push-back on casual ableist language. I’ve learned a great deal from the comment sections here.

That being said, as a human being who makes mistakes, I sometimes find the overly harsh treatment of people who slip up to be…well, not really helping. Chasing someone off isn’t spreading a message. It’s missing an opportunity to change a person’s worldview.

kupo
kupo
5 years ago

@EJ

As a reminder, humans feeling happy or sad is literally the only thing that matters. It is not a minor matter.

Thank you so much for putting into words why it makes me so angry when people argue about how they should be allowed to hurt other people’s feelings because it’s just words. That attitude seems to have only gotten worse with the internet, as now the interaction is not face-to-face, but for people like me who live very much in their heads and don’t do as well in the physical space, the internet is the best means we have to reach out to others, and the toxicity has just been growing. Grown damn adults play bully because they think it’s funny and they don’t give a shit what it does to anyone until it affects them somehow.

Joe E
Joe E
5 years ago

I think I should explain something here. I’m severely disabled. It’s not something I can hide. I not only have to walk with a cane, I have a substantial spinal deformity that you just can’t NOT notice. I’m sometimes told I look “100% like” other people, which considering how rare my condition is has to mean I have a similar condition and that’s it. Oh, and every case is different in a lot of ways so no two of us really look the same. It’s called kyphoscoliosis and you can look that up if you want. There are many pictures online. I used to live in a neighborhood where someone else with a vaguely similar condition worked and we were constantly mistaken for one another even though he was bald, at least 20 years older than me, had a big bushy mustache, and dressed nothing like me. He didn’t even use a cane out of some misplaced since of pride. And yet… So many people just saw someone who was disabled and that’s it.

I’m constantly told I have it easy because I don’t have to get a job or wait in line. The fact that I get a very, VERY modest check is apparently some luxury I don’t deserve to millions of people in this country. I’ve been attacked for no reason, ignored at bars, been asked to leave public places, and in school when cameras were going to film (it was one of the only private schools in the state so we got some TV coverage) I was always kept far away from the cameras. Oh, and I have suffered from chronic severe anxiety and depression my whole life, as well as bouts of OCD and PTSD from a variety of traumas including spending my childhood in a hospital bed and surviving years of child abuse.

A casual perhaps outdated expression or even a joke in no way resembles the very real and very hostile treatment I along with many, many other disabled people experience constantly. I’ve been accused of “ableism” on this site too. I can tell you about ableism. I can tell you about ableism all day long. I have to tell you, it is very disheartening to see people spending all their time unnecessarily piling onto someone who really did nothing wrong when I KNOW most of you, if not all, will just go about your lives and not give any thought to these things except when you happen to run across a comment you don’t like. I see it everyday. I see how uncomfortable the most self-described “liberal” and “tolerant” people get. There is just as much uncomfortable staring and snickering at Whole Foods as there is at Five Guys or Home Depot or anywhere else.

I get that your intentions are good. I appreciate that. But you are missing the point. Changing attitudes and making people understand that I am just as human as you, that is the point. The point is not to treat me like some kind of walking disease while at the same time resenting me for getting a pass to cut in line at the DMV. Language is important, yeah, but when 99% of the outrage I see both on the internet and out in the real world is about someone saying “I get a little OCD” or “Wow, you’re nuts” or something like that and when I try to tell people about how I’m treated in my daily life and people say “Wow, I had no idea things like that happened” and honestly mean it, I have to think something is missing here. When we see deformed people as horror movie monsters we describe as “nightmarish” I have to think something is missing here.

The point, dear readers, is this. There is a LOT more wrong with the way we treat disabilities than casual language that may or may not reflect certain passe societal norms. There are thousands of people who are barely even seen as human. When someone shoots up a church or theater we bend over backward to avoid talking about the red flags that were ignored because we ignored them and didn’t help. We have homeless shelters full of people using wheelchairs, walkers, and canes to get around and even more suffering from everything from depression to schizophrenia. We throw them away and arrest them for being in one place too long where we might have to see them.

This, what we’re doing here, this does not solve any problems. When we have a rash of mass shootings and seemingly no way to tell when they might be coming, thousands of disabled men, women, and children on the streets, people who can’t get SSI benefits because they’re directed to approve as few applications as possible, and people who can barely keep a roof over our heads when we finally do get our checks because apparently we need to live in poverty for the sin of being injured or, even worse, born this way, there are more important things to deal with. There are real pressing concerns here. Self-righteous railing against perhaps outmoded vernacular does not change the fact that people panic and grab their kids and run off when I get close on the street.

These things are real, they’re not exaggerated, and they’re real problems. Maybe you should give that some thought the next time you pat yourself on the back for your takedown of that obviously evil person who happened to use an expression that could use an update. I’m predicting many of you will reflexively try to defend yourselves and tell me I’m being unfair and that you’re on my side. I get that you’re on my side in spirit and I appreciate it. I do. But before you type up some comment telling me of all people that I don’t get it or don’t understand or something I hope you take a deep breath and instead consider that maybe the fact that I can’t avoid it and deal with it every single time I leave my apartment every day of my life means the thing to do might be not to argue but to listen. Because every time I’ve ever tried to get anyone to listen it turns out the same way. They don’t. Let’s hope this time turns out differently.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

NothingClever | July 20, 2015 at 8:14 pm
That being said, as a human being who makes mistakes, I sometimes find the overly harsh treatment of people who slip up to be…well, not really helping. Chasing someone off isn’t spreading a message. It’s missing an opportunity to change a person’s worldview.

But that’s not our job. That’s not why we’re here.

We’re not obligated to take every opportunity to “change a person’s worldview”. We’re not obligated to be educators because someone made a mistake. We are not obligated to make people who are in a privileged class understand what we go through. Some of us just want to live our lives without having to deal with this shit. If someone wants me to spend time “educating them”, then it needs to be on my terms (either pay me or talk about something I’m interested in), not theirs. They don’t get to expect or demand me to do so.

If someone gets pissy because they said something objectionable and were called out for it, and there’s always at least one kind call-out with some not-so-kind ones on occasion (they aren’t even really nasty, just an “I’m so done with this shit”), then as my grandma says: “They can get happy in the same britches they got mad in.”

No one should have to put aside their feelings so they can make sure that someone else is comfortable or volunteer time to “change someone’s worldview”.

No one is saying you can’t make mistakes, but when people here have been more than kind when dealing with people who do occasionally say ableist things, and we only get upset when they double down or try to ‘splain to us why they should be able to use those words, I don’t think you have a leg to stand on to say that we’re “chasing people out” over “slip ups”.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I was dogpiled, it wasn’t about ableism, and it was very hurtful. There are lots of situations where dogpiling occurs (obvious trolls excluded) yet every time someone complains about it, the resulting invective is too defensive and too aggressive. It’s been like that for years.

It’s kind of hard to respond to this without knowing the context. Did you say something harmful? Because the issue to me, is that people keep putting their wish not to be criticized above all else. I guess I just don’t see why it matters if one or half a dozen people criticize a fucked up thing you say. What matters is how you respond to it.

I was “dogpiled” I guess my first month or two here. I made an oppression Olympics style comment. Instead of getting a martyrdom complex about it, I reflected on my comment and why it was criticized. I apologized sincerely and we all moved on. I’m glad it happened because it helped me to think more about the way I spoke. It made me a better person and a better ally. I can’t understand why that’s supposed to be a bad thing,

I really can’t fathom why people hold a grudge for months or years because some people objected to a post. Auntie Alias, I keep up with the ongoing threads very well and I don’t remember either me or anyone else having an issue with you. I pretty clearly remember all the big arguments that have occurred since I’ve been here and I don’t remember a big blow out centering around you. Are you sure people were really that horrible to you?

Maybe some of this stuff is like an embarrassing moment. You remember it really clearly and it becomes bigger and bigger in your head over time even though it wasn’t a big deal and nobody else remembers it. Not to trying to gaslight, btw. Everybody does this. I do it too. I’ll bet if you dig up whatever thread this supposed dog piling occurred in, it was fewer than five people objecting to whatever is you said and it probably wasn’t all that cruel.

I think people are just going to have to get over themselves a little bit. This is a place full of smart and opinionated people the majority of who belong to one or more groups that is frequently silenced and looked down upon by the culture at large. I just don’t see this ever becoming a place where everybody is demure and apologetic about their opinions. It would be dreadful if it did.

I’ll copy past my favorite part of that post I linked above and then I’ll stop teal dearing. For now anyway.

Yeah, I know. Conflict is always unpleasant, and it’s sad and frustrating that these conflicts keep cropping up. But the solution isn’t to simply suppress the conflict; the solution is to tackle the oppression that’s causing the conflict. To reiterate: the oppression causes the conflict. People seem to have this idea that marginalised groups just love arguments and get angry all by themselves. Unless you just happen to be a white, straight, cis, abled, financially comfortable man who also has whichever other privileges I’ve forgotten to list, you’ll know that’s not true in terms of your own marginalisation(s) – so why do we have such difficulty in transferring that knowledge to situations where our group is the oppressor?

To be told that your words or your actions are harmful is uncomfortable, but it’s nowhere near as uncomfortable as actually being on the receiving end of that harm time and time again, every day, everywhere, even in supposedly “safe” spaces because many people think that “safe” means “neutral” and argument-free. Safe spaces should be safe for all the people they aim to support, including those who are marginalised within that group. This means that structural oppression has to be addressed, and that can mean conflict. It might seem theoretical and pointless to you, but for others, it’s the first steps towards making a space safe and positive again.

Marisa
5 years ago

David, I just wanted to let you know how much I love and appreciate this blog. You are performing a very important public service. I also wanted to let you know that this post has inspired my own blog post today. http://thetimothycareyexperience.com/2015/07/20/pic-of-the-day-tracks-revisited-7/

NothingClever
NothingClever
5 years ago

I’m not saying you have to educate ignorant people. I just think it does a lot more good in the long run. And I know intent isn’t some magical cloak, but it is a factor. Someone who’s not *trying* to hurt anyone’s feelings can be taught. And yelling “fuck” at them when calling them out is not gentle. It just isn’t. It makes the OP defensive and more likely to double down. Which is just going to make everyone else angrier. It escalates things.

Attacks get very personal and nasty the longer these threads go on. I’ve read some stuff here that has personally made me feel very unsafe and unwelcome in this space (as a woman, as a rape survivor, as a sufferer of mental illness), which is a shame because I really love this site. And I generally like the camaraderie in the comments section, even though I so seldom take part in it. I hate to see it devolving the way it has over the last few days.

marinerachel
marinerachel
5 years ago

It’s posts like the one Auntie Alias has quoted that it get really boring having to respond to. Once again I have to respond to the accusation I obvs don’t suffer with mental illness and just don’t understand! Yesterday I had an appointment with my family, a friend and two shrinks to determine whether I need to be admitted to the psych ward for an unspecified period of time again during which my father argued mental illness isn’t real and I just need to achieve a lower body fat %! Instead of hospitalisation, for the time being, I’m trying experimental ketamine therapy and my dad has cut contact with me. Fuck yeah!

I’m really uncomfortable with the fact I just shared that because to me my health is personal and quite painful to discuss, not something I chitchat about on the internet with any regularity – I have to be twisted and tied in fucking knots before, without provocation, I share a WORD of my medical history because it SUCKS – but what the hell am I supposed to say when dumb shit like “You obvs don’t understand the struggle” is repeatedly expressed with reference to me?

But, oh yeah, assumptions I don’t understand or experience mental illness and associated stigma – totes valid. Gosh, it must be difficult, being privy to such knowledge about people you don’t know. I can’t imagine how overwhelming clairvoyance must be. I actually had to study to obtain knowledge. What a chump!

I sure as shit haven’t defended ableism nor have I seen anyone else do so. I’ve had my concerns written off as such though! So, who’s the abuser?

I’m quite pleased with the discussion I’ve precipitated! As we can see, it’s something that’s been of concern to MANY people and, in their opinions, harming the comments section of this blog. I wish it wasn’t happening in the comments section of a post to which it has no relevance. I haven’t participated in the discussion beyond, like, four posts though so I can hardly be considered responsible for the immense response it’s received! Even if I were as avid a participant as many of those villifying me for calling out narcissistic and often unfair behaviour, I can’t physically move any posts from one comment section to another.

So, to all the miserable posters who have participated bountifully in this discussion and are blaming me for the fact they and many others are still participating in a derail I planted the seeds of, take some responsibility for your actions. Be a grown-up. You’re the ones who made the derail happen just as you’re the ones who reroute the discussion, making it about your personal struggle with mental illness and the associated stigma all the goddamn time, whether someone actually committed a heinous act of ableism or not. I don’t have time to do what you guys do! I have another degree underway, a job, a family, a borderline-addiction to working out, a failed musical career I continue to pursue and my own mental health to take care of. This derail is your baby. The most I did was donate an ovum. I had nothing to do with fertilization or gestation or delivery. Seriously, own your shit (and that’s a James Boileau of Vancouver reference, not one to any honey badger(s)s. I’m not allowing them to appropriate that expression.)

The fact you have rerouted discussions, making them about yourselves repeatedly and unfairly attacked or disproportionately responded to posters and made the comments section anything from a dull to profoundly hurtful place for people who would seek to empower you under the vast majority of circumstances is your fault. You’re just engaging in garden variety bullying which, outside a setting in which you possess a great deal of influence, you wouldn’t be able to do. It’s hard to admit you’re privileged when in most respects you’re not but, in this setting, that’s exactly what you are and it’s what empowers and enables you to go WAY beyond the call of duty and hurt people.

I am happy to be your punching bag though as it appears to be the case many are determined to pretend I’m the only person to whom my feelings of dissatisfaction with the comments section are relevant and no one else has piped up and said “Yeah, I feel it would benefit the comments section if you guys toned it the fuck down”. Years ago, when I was twenty-five-ish, I stopped taking anything personally. The fact some people lash out when confronted about being self-righteous, hurtful and monopolising discussions with their pet issues has everything to do with them and nothing to do with me. I just grew tired enough of some of behaviours that I opted to sacrifice myself at the alter of “Some of you guys have gotten away with acting like jerks and making this place miserable for many for a long time”. Not taking shit personally though is intimately linked to getting over yourself which constitutes not thinking everything is about you and that takes time and learning which clearly some regulars here haven’t accrued yet! I can’t even hold that against anyone. You need life experience, a lot of which is getting kicked around, to learn that.

I get that I’m persona non grata. I’m not delusional (at least not on this issue) and I get that my feelings of “Holy shit, it’s NOT ABOUT YOU and it’s ALREADY BEEN ADRESSED – MOVE ALONG” aren’t welcome to some regulars who think that’s appropriate conduct. I wouldn’t be a very good scientist if I didn’t notice something so obvious! I’m OK with that. I’m just glad the sentiment some of the regulars have monopolised the comments section, making it miserable for many others, is out there and others feel sufficiently empowered to pipe up and express the same or similar, even tangential feelings.

Again, there are posters here I really like and value and I love David and his blog. There are people here, including David, who have demonstrated so much concern for my well-being when I’ve been in crisis that it’s brought me to tears, literally. My frustration is SO not with the blog or most of the commentors on it! I just don’t like some of the trends taken by the comments section with respect to some regular posters to the extent I think it’s significantly hindered discussion and many people’s enjoyment of the place. These trends haven taken over enough discussions to push away great people who would make great contributions to discussion but won’t because they’ve been treated so disproportionately badly and received support for it.

marinerachel
marinerachel
5 years ago

Wow, talk about a WOT!

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I’m not saying you have to educate ignorant people. I just think it does a lot more good in the long run. And I know intent isn’t some magical cloak, but it is a factor. Someone who’s not *trying* to hurt anyone’s feelings can be taught.

That’s all well and good. If someone is in the mood to do some social justice 101 educating, great! But expecting people to always do it, especially when the topic is an oppression that effects them personally, is a problem.

I’ll let geek feminism explain way. Partially to show that we’re not some especially vile place full of meanies, that this is actually a problem many have noticed.
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Feminism_101_discussions

This is specifically about feminism, but it actually works for any topic in social justice if you change some of the identifying words like “women” around.

This.

Because of the potential for education of allies, feminism 101 discussions are not always harmful. However, continual insistence on receiving Feminism 101 education has these problems:
◾ it frustrates detailed specific discussion of issues between feminists
◾ it continually centres the discussion around the experiences, perspectives and beliefs of men
◾ it plays into a sexist societal pattern of women needing to educate everyone around them on morality and etiquette on demand as a matter of thankless duty
◾ it plays into a sexist societal pattern of ignoring the existing hard work of women (who have written more feminist-perspective resources for men than one could get through in a lifetime)
◾ it allows concern trolls to take over a discussion space

All of the above can be exhausting and demoralising for feminists and allies. Some feminist discussions limit Feminism 101 discussions to particular threads or boards, or ban it altogether. There are some dedicated Feminism 101 resources which are designed to act as a magnet for this kind of discussion to stop it taking over all feminist discussions.

And also this

The concept is equivalent in, for example, anti-racism and anti-homophobia activism. Someone who has (or believes they have) mastered feminism 101 has not necessarily ‘graduated’ from 101 in other anti-oppression discussions, especially if they are relatively privileged.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

NothingClever | July 20, 2015 at 9:52 pm
I’m not saying you have to educate ignorant people. I just think it does a lot more good in the long run.

That comes off to me as “I’m not saying you have to educate people, I’m saying I think it’s a better idea than being frustrated, so you should teach them because it’s better in the long run.”

Then you can go and educate people then and not try and tone police other people who are having valid feelings about seeing this shit over and over again.

I know you’re not trying to do this intentionally, but your posts are coming across as you not giving a shit how other mentally ill people (including myself), feel about this situation, and asking us to put aside our valid feelings to cater to the feelings of other people who were just being ableist, and that feels kind of shitty.

And I know intent isn’t some magical cloak, but it is a factor. Someone who’s not *trying* to hurt anyone’s feelings can be taught.

And we do try to be kind to them at first. I have yet to see anyone who has posted here in good faith be only responded to with any modicum of rudeness. Hell, even I bite my tongue in a lot of situations and just say “Hey, can you not do this please?”

Even the “rude” comments are pretty fucking tame. The angriest I’ve seen is someone say “not this shit again” and/or some sarcastic/snarky comment. That’s it.

However, a lot of people are just frustrated that they have this conversation for the billionth time this week, and they deserve to feel that way too.

Still not obligated to teach anyone anything though.

And yelling “fuck” at them when calling them out is not gentle. It just isn’t. It makes the OP defensive and more likely to double down. Which is just going to make everyone else angrier. It escalates things.

I get it, you have mental illnesses too, but not everyone is going to respond the same way you are to this stuff. Some of us are damn tired of dealing with it, and we do lash out due to frustration or even anger.

However, again, I have yet to see anyone posting here in good faith (who haven’t insisted that they’re a mental health professional and then go on to be horribly ableist, who aren’t known trolls, or who haven’t doubled down) be only responded to with shitty comments, and even the comments that are shitty are either not directed at them, and/or they’re really, really mild.

There’s been a lot of exasperation, and yeah, that can be frustrating to deal with if you’re new and don’t know what’s going on, but there’s also lots of people who do try to respond in good faith to ask them to stop.

You’re acting like we’re just tearing into innocent people who have done nothing wrong with reckless abandon, and I haven’t seen that happen. Ever.

If you know where it did happen, please feel free to point me in that direction.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Going back a page or so, because I fell asleep:

Y’know, for all the trolls and idiots accuse us of being THE WORLD’S MEANEST MEANIES, if we ever have an international IRL meetup, it’ll really just be a big ol’ hugfest.

http://i.imgur.com/C3j69eT.jpg

NothingClever
NothingClever
5 years ago

Let me answer back with this. It has always been a pet peeve of mine when people say “innocent women.” As in “this guy is threatening to harm innocent women” or “that guy is advocating raping innocent women.” It implies that if the woman is *not* innocent, then she deserves whatever treatment she gets. Whenever I see it used in the comments section, I grit my teeth a little bit. But I don’t call it out because I know that that’s not how it’s meant to come across. If I were a bolder person, I would simply explain it as I just explained it to you now. I wouldn’t go, “Sigh, eyeroll, this again, hope you’re here in good faith, you troll.”

I think a banner next to the comments section is best, with an explanation as to why a word most people use in a colloquial sense is not tolerated here. That way, the first time someone’s tongue slips, the commenters can point them to that, ask if they read it, etc. Simple. No one gets told to “fuck off,” nobody gets assumptions thrown at them. If they come back after that, have at them. But the post that set this whole thing off used the term “no sane person.” That’s not malicious. That’s not trolling. That’s using a common English phrase with negative connotations. That’s easily corrected and certainly didn’t need to be escalated into this whole argument.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Aaaand marinemichael comes back in with another wall of text that’s all “me me me, you’re all boring, you keep derailing the thread, I have important things to do, blah, blah, blah.”

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

NothingClever | July 20, 2015 at 10:52 pm
Let me answer back with this. It has always been a pet peeve of mine when people say “innocent women.” As in “this guy is threatening to harm innocent women” or “that guy is advocating raping innocent women.” It implies that if the woman is *not* innocent, then she deserves whatever treatment she gets. Whenever I see it used in the comments section, I grit my teeth a little bit. But I don’t call it out because I know that that’s not how it’s meant to come across. If I were a bolder person, I would simply explain it as I just explained it to you now. I wouldn’t go, “Sigh, eyeroll, this again, hope you’re here in good faith, you troll.”

There’s a difference between going “innocent people” and “this terrible person MUST be insane to do [insert terrible thing here]!” though, isn’t there?

If it does bother you that much, I fail to see how calling it out would be a bad thing, regardless of how it comes out. Talking about changing how we word things could lead to a valuable discussion.

However, I would like to point out (again) that not everyone is going to respond to everything the same way you do. Some people get frustrated, other people have bad days, some people are nice, and some people say nothing at all.

I would prefer if you’d stop trying to police everyone’s emotions, or at the very least, stop insisting that our emotions have to be set aside to cater to everyone else. It’s really getting tiresome.

I think a banner next to the comments section is best, with an explanation as to why a word most people use in a colloquial sense is not tolerated here. That way, the first time someone’s tongue slips, the commenters can point them to that, ask if they read it, etc. Simple. No one gets told to “fuck off,” nobody gets assumptions thrown at them. If they come back after that, have at them. But the post that set this whole thing off used the term “no sane person.” That’s not malicious. That’s not trolling. That’s using a common English phrase with negative connotations. That’s easily corrected and certainly didn’t need to be escalated into this whole argument.

That’s what we’re already doing? We’re being nice for the first time, pointing towards the comments policy and welcome package, and then the claws come out if they double down.

Again, it feels like you’re throwing the feelings of everyone else under the bus with tone policing, and asking that we stop getting upset when we have every right to be, and have every right to express that frustration.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

It’s posts like the one Auntie Alias has quoted that it get really boring having to respond to. Once again I have to respond to the accusation I obvs don’t suffer with mental illness and just don’t understand!

Talk about making everything about yourself. I don’t recall anyone saying to you specifically that you don’t have any mental illness and couldn’t possibly understand. If a post wasn’t addressed specifically to you, and my post that Auntie Alias was responding to wasn’t, then it’s not about you.

I was one of those people who showed concern for you when you were going through that crisis last year, in fact. So no, I wasn’t saying you don’t understand mental health issues. But having experience with mental illness really doesn’t mean you get dictate how others here, especially other posters who also suffer from mental health issues, respond to ableism. Anymore than JudgyBitch gets to tell us we can’t smack down misogyny because after all, she’s a woman too.

I think you thought that when Ally S (who you’re still bringing up for some strange reason) left, you would be able to remake the comments section into what you wanted it to be and when that happened you didn’t like it very much. So now you’re trying to get rid of whoever else it is that you don’t like. But this time it’s not one person you can point to as the perceived problem, so it’s a little harder, isn’t it? So, I guess all you can do is resort to popping up and making a few hostile comments once in awhile.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago
NothingClever
NothingClever
5 years ago

I’m not asking you to not get upset. I’m not trying to tone police, so I’m really sorry if it came off that way. Of course your feelings are valid. But so are mine. And so are the poster’s. And a lot of the time, the posters who double down do so because they’re bewildered and baffled. They can’t be expected to correct their behavior if they don’t know what they’ve done wrong. It comes off as bullying. It really does.

Not that anyone here has said anything nasty to me (thanks for being so civil, I’m really a non-confrontive person, mostly because I spent practically every day of my life being told to keep quiet because I had “nothing clever” to say), but I’m going to take a break from this site. It’s just bringing back lots of horrible triggers for me. I’m crying as I type this, and that’s just not worth it for me.

Again, sorry if I said anything really offensive or if anyone felt marginalized by anything I said. I really do respect the work you’re doing here by calling out ableist language. Really, you have no idea how your work has helped me to put a new lens on my childhood and upbringing.

nightmarelyre
5 years ago

@marinerachel, so you are telling people to not make it about themselves by… making it all about yourself? Personally I think it’s a good thing to be able to share experiences, feelings, etc. with others so I am not gonna tell you it’s a bad thing that is what you are doing right now because it’s not, however it is bad that you are essentially trying to tell other people they are not allowed to do so and need to “grow a thicker skin” or whatever.

As someone once said, a thick skin is just that: thick, not invincible, it get grounded down and it’s a good thing to be able to get “emotional skin care” to take care of yourself. It’s not a juvenile thing you grow out of, though acting like emotions are for babies and beneath oneself is indeed a phase one should grow out of while still being able to keep the thick skin one have left ready for when one might need it if possible.

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
5 years ago

@WWTH

When you disparage me with “martyrdom complex”, tell me to get over myself, and guess how few people piled on me, you are arguing in bad faith. The fact that you don’t remember the incident doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. In fact, you were part of it.

Once again, stop making this about ableism. I made it clear that wasn’t part of my complaint. It’s certainly convenient to use it as a shield when someone complains about the bullying in here but I call BS on that.

@NothingClever

Thanks for speaking up and here’s a bear hug if you want one. :bear:

Auntie Alias
Auntie Alias
5 years ago

Sorry, David. I didn’t refresh before posting.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

I would love for the people concerned about dogpiling to actually point towards specific examples. Like, with a link if at all possible, or enough detail so that people might be able to find the thread with google. Because I’m not sure if folks are using different definitions of “dogpiling,” or if someone’s memory is fuzzy and isn’t remembering the details (either remembering it as better or worse), or if stories are being passed around off-site, or what.

It’s hard for us folks accused of dogpiling to defend ourselves against something we don’t remember (or remember happening differently), and vague accusations that the community is terrible because of some unspecified behavior doesn’t exactly promote useful discussion.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

Same, David. Didn’t refresh.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

This thread will remain open for discussions of Janet Bloomfield, kitties, and other topics not related to the comments policy and/or ableism.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/9eb2160b9cbbf22f56c06ca2b3c56715/tumblr_nihmspc8Rp1sxxwbno1_1280.gif