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4chan antifeminism men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny racism rape rape culture

“Did you know that there is no proof that punishing rape is actually beneficial for a society?” 4Channer asks

sideeye

It’s amazing just how quickly a visit to 4chan’s /pol/ board can strip you of any lingering faith in humanity.

 

Consider the following 4chan “infographic” posted recently on Twitter:

profowlrape

A quick Google search of the language in this graphic led me to an archived 4chan thread, where this particular “argument,” and the graphic itself, seem to have originated, making it exceedingly unlikely that (as per the small print on the graphic) “Prof. Owl” is actually a “married father of four daughters and three sons” and exceedingly likely that he is instead an overgrown adolescent nursing a giant grudge against women.

The good news is that not everyone in /pol/ agreed with Prof. Owl’s reprehensible views; the not-so-good news is that their views on rape were often just as reprehensible.

So let’s take a look at some of the, er, highlights of /pol/’s debate on the proposition that rape is “nowhere near as bad as people make it out to be.”

1) Prof. Owl’s contribution

But is rape rally all THAT bad?  1. Rape is not only exaggerated 2. but rape legislation is unproven to be beneficial. There is no proof that harsh rape punishment outweighs the detrimental effects of false rape allegations.

2) “The true male equivalent of rape is not rape, but rather paternity fraud.”

>So why do feminists, see rape as the worst thing that can ever happen to woman and we aren't even talking about the obvious bullshit ''rape'' as in ''he stared at me in the elevator, it's like I was just raped!''.   Sexual selection. Rape means losing the authority over who you mate with, meaning possible shit offspring. That's why rape is so traumatic for women and not so much for men.   The true male equivalent of rape is not rape, but rather paternity fraud.

3) “We live in a cunt overglorification culture thus it’s blown completely out of proportion.”

>Yeah, but why exactly? Why is rape such a horrible thing to most people?  Women love to pull the victim card.   A woman being penetrated by a man is the same as a man being circumcluded by a woman.   Not a big deal.  but we live in a cunt overglorification culture thus it's blown completely out of proportion.

In case you’re wondering, here’s what this fella’s graphic says:

1402726333586

4) “It is actually more traumatic for men … Getting forced to accept a dick in the anus shows that that man is not able to protect anything. Which makes him unqualified for mating.”

not so traumatic for men  Are you fucking kidding me? It is actually more traumatic for men, the reason is simple. Men have believed that they are conquerers, that they are the stable income of the household and are the commander of their family. Getting forced to accept a dick in the anus shows that that man is not able to protect anything. Which makes him unqualified for mating.  Rape is equally shit for both sides.

5) “Rape is significantly less traumatic than being jumped by a gang of nigs.”

Rape is significantly less traumatic than being jumped by a gang of nigs

6) “The violence should be punished of course. But the heterosexual rape itself only minimally.”

The violence should be punished of course. But the heterosexual rape itself only minimally.  So if a man hits a woman and breaks her arm and then rapes her then then hitting and fracture should be punished, the rape itself only minimally.

7) “If people just stopped their victim privilege and lend a help to someone who is raping them and just went with the flow. There wouldn’t be any rape incidents.”

I know right, if people just stopped their victim privilege and lend a help to someone who is raping them and just went with the flow. There wouldn't be any rape incidents.

(I’m really hoping that this guy is being sarcastic, but sadly I think he probably isn’t.)

8) “My female friend told me it was a complete turn off for her if someone asked her directly if she wanted to have sex, which … feminazis completely ignore.”

Ironically OP, most men and women are engaged in what would be called rape in any legal sense every time they meet at a bar and go home afterwards and have sex, because consent is never explicit, it is always implied.  Even my female friend told me it was a complete turn off for her if someone asked her directly if she wanted to have sex, which I agree with, and feminazis completely ignore.

9) “Maybe I’m just an old fashioned guy with a sense of historical perspective. Rape may not be so bad.”

Long ago rape was considered bad by men because they considered women to be property. Rape has never been uncommon. Sadly cunts get equally wet through the gentle loving touch of a cherished partner and through the panty ripping, slam the cock in, sex act we associate with rape. In days gone by either way was considered good.  Maybe I'm just an old fashioned guy with a sense of historical perspective. Rape may not be so bad  pic related. a few nice Scandinavian chaps here to introduce themselves to your ancesters cunt

 

10) “I was raped once, and it was really unpleasant when it started. But then after I let myself go and loosened up it actually felt quite good.”

I was raped once, and it was really unpleasant when it started. But then after I let myself go and loosened up it actually felt quite good.

11) “There is no such thing as rape. … There is only the fair and equal redistribution of pussy.”

Females make up half of the population, but they control 100% of the vaginas. This vagina inequality is wrong. We need social ownership of the means of reproduction.  There is no such thing as rape. Rape is just a feminist construct. There is only the fair and equal redistribution of pussy. I am the 50%.

12) “I’d be mad if I were raped, but as long as I wasn’t injured or infected I’d get over it pretty quick”

I'd be mad if I were raped, but as long as I wasn't injured or infected I'd get over it pretty quick. I mean, I was sexually abused as a kid and I don't lose any sleep over it.  Every organism on Earth suffers from the sinister urge. How can you blame someone for wanting to mash their flesh against you. They're designed for it. Their very being compels them to do it. People grossly overestimate their will. And really, rape isn't personal. It's not like they want to psychologically scar you. They just wanna fuck.  Most of the trauma of rape has to due with social implications - perceived emasculation, promiscuity, etc. Which is the fault of the victim for tying their head in a knot over absolutely nothing. It's stupid. "What will they think of me?!" They'll think you're over-reactive and histrionic.

13) “When a woman is raped her entire identity (her vagina) is being stolen for free, when usually you’d have to buy her shit, date her, marry her or whatever.”

Because as much as they might not like it, vaginas are a commodity.. a good to be traded, sold, given etc.  when a woman is raped her entire identity (her vagina) is being stolen for free, when usually you'd have to buy her shit, date her, marry her or whatever.

14) “It undercuts their princess status.”

Women know that their entire worth as a human being lies on their ability to offer vagina. >This is why they are TERRIFIED by sexbots, male contraception, etc, and this is also why they are TERRIFIED by rape, because it means someone "stole" their "ware" for free, lowering the value of pussy on the market if it becomes "accepted" practice.  This!!  It undercuts their princess status in two ways:  1. Their usage of beauty to achieve what they want failed (i.e. they could not make a man stop)  2. Their main asset (pussy) is taken without pay.  It's a double bummer and therefore it's so humiliating.  You can EMULATE rape by telling cunts to imagine that they have to pay to get sex. It's not as drastic as rape, but it's a very similar feeling in their head.  Women are parasites and as such are not used to pay for something.

15) “Who /rapist/ here? I’ve raped 7 girls”

Who /rapist/ here?  I've raped 7 girls

Please, please, please let this asshole be trolling.

H/T — r/againstmensrights

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artsmyth
artsmyth
6 years ago

Such humanitarians. I’m sure they’re also hard at work on such arguments as:

Did you know that there is no proof that punishing murder is actually beneficial for a society, especially when compared to the harm that false murder accusations do:

Innocent men jailed, emotional harm, financial harm, prison rape, waste of resources of police and courts, ruined businesses (e.g. if the accused is a company owner), destroyed families, suicides, ..

Yeah, I can already see all those dedicated MRAs hard at work to ally themselves with groups like the Innocence Project to address these injustices. I mean, this is about justice and equality, and not just about their penises, right..?

Falconer
6 years ago

(They’re called puggles, apparently.)

All baby monotremes are called puggles! That’s not a large group, it’s generally only platypuses and echidnas. They are all adorably cute!

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

It was calculated in the late 90s that a single non-child, non-fatal rape cost society in the United States $87,000. That’s equivalent to $143,000 today.

In aggregate, non-child, non-fatal rape in the United States was calculated to cost $127 billion, equivalent to $209 billion today. It was by far the most costly category, topping fatal crime (mainly because fatal crimes are far less prevalent).

But sure, let’s pretend that there is no benefit to society to reducing these numbers. Sure. Right.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

OMG! Platypi! And pandas! And pookies, oh my!

Ze brain, she is a-bleached.

Alice Sanguinaria
6 years ago

autosoma: Hm, okay, I kind of see the auburn color. I don’t really see the hazel though. Hazel has more green in it.

autosoma
6 years ago

Alice
Sorry, I’m a bit useless at colours

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
6 years ago
Aerinea
Aerinea
6 years ago

I think we need some baby lynx cuteness too.

https://instagram.com/p/44kUWHTGs4/

sn0rkmaiden
6 years ago

Loving the puggles 🙂

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ POM

It clearly would benefit society as a whole to reduce those numbers. However imprisoning people doesn’t actually have an effect (other than some rapists are temporarily removed from society).

Generally speaking sexual and violent offending isn’t affected by either conviction rate or sentence length. So where for instance the police have been removed from a society the level of acquisitive crime goes up (more thefts and burglaries) but sexual and violent offending stays the same.

Don’t get me wrong, I do think rapists should be locked up (in fact I’d go further) but the penal system can’t address the underlying problem.

autosoma
6 years ago
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

@Alan

Most rapes are committed by serial rapists. Are you seriously going to claim that removing them from society after their first rape would have no effect on total numbers? Imprisonment is about more than just deterrence. It’s also about removing an offender’s ability to re-offend, which is actually important in cases where re-offence is likely.

Also:

So where for instance the police have been removed from a society the level of acquisitive crime goes up (more thefts and burglaries) but sexual and violent offending stays the same.

This is kind of bullshit. In conflict zones and failed states, the rate of sexual and violent offense goes through the roof. I have no idea what context you’re talking about here, but a situation where no law exists is not one that sees only an increase in theft.

ColeYote
ColeYote
6 years ago

And cue comments saying nothing on /pol/ is serious. Y’know, like A) aren’t people who legitimately believe this shit and 2) these being “jokes” would be much of an improvement.

Alais
6 years ago

With regards to people who’ve actually gone to jail after being falsely accused of rape, aren’t most of those people whose alleged victims actually were raped but by someone whom they did not know, which meant that the police had to try to track down a perp who was a stranger to the victim and use other means to identify him? In other words, it was a case where both side ended up being victims. I ask this because most of the cases that MRAs present where innocent people accused of rape went to jail are cases where the alleged victim actually was raped, was telling the truth, and was convinced by the police that the defendant was his or her rapist.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

As a father if two daughters and a husband if a rape survivor, I’d love to meet professor owl and have a little face time with him. Just sit there, have him look me in the eyes and ask him to repeat all this verbatim to me. I’d cheerfully show him pictures of my family ask to see his and get him to repeat it very very slowly and outline his key points to my face.

I’d ask him to explain to me his rhetoric and try to convince me to belive his world view with the understanding that I am diametrically opposed to his way of thinking. I’m not the kind of guy to be trifled and I seriously promise not to be violent in any way. But I would just like to explain to him just what it’s like to love, care for and support a rape survivor and the difficulties that a rape survivor undergoes.

I’d be quite happy to take other thoughts and opinions along and discuss them with him.

I really, REALLY hate to say this autosoma, but he probably wouldn’t care about your wife and her struggles. At all. He’d most likely just look at the picture of her and see a vagina with a female-shaped body attached. That would be the root of his argument and chances are he’d spent his entire time with you trying to convince you a) why it was surely her fault she got raped b) she’s probably lying for attention, bro c) what are you doing married to a rape survivor anyway? Don’t you know they’re just broken worthless whores? d) caring for a rape survivor makes you SUCH a mangina.

I also don’t encourage violence, but if you were able to spend more than ten minutes with him before punching him in the face I’d give you a trophy.

Guh, just thinking about the kind of stuff he’d say makes me feel ill.

autosoma
6 years ago

I think I’d have to agree with Alan, prison and detention centres aren’t much of a deterrent. The first time I spent a weekend in a police detention centre as a teenager it was scary and boring, several times later you get used to the routine and the attitude. My father spent a long time in prison and was a habitual reoffender his take was that the first month was shit and then you got used to the routine.

From having met plenty of old lags in my time, prison us chokka with “innocent” cons, so I’ve got no time for these MRA and channer idiots wanting a project innocence about rape. I’m not that sympathetic to any of their notions

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ POM

Yeah, obviously the incapacitation effect takes some rapists out of commission, for a while, but so few rapes are even reported it makes little difference.

A lot of the research about the absence of law comes from conflict zones. There can be more opportunity for rape. For many ‘soldiers’ this is the first time they’ve got to leave there local area, so there are more potential rapists, but the number of rapes per man is roughly constant. Women were being raped even when there was a legal system in place, there just weren’t as many men.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

Alan and autosoma, I’m assuming you aren’t trying to say that anti-rape laws at all, or punishment for rape at all, aren’t effective, right? Because I’ve seen sources that have talked about how the massive upswing in US incarceration rates over the last few decades haven’t been correlated much with the recent decrease in crime across the board, but go on to say that other types of measures are more effective.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/inc_iandc_complex.pdf

This pdf is the source I looked at recently, and page 6 does talk about how, because of the way the incarceration cycle works, increased incarceration alone doesn’t have nearly as strong effects one would think even against serial offenders. But I think the key is that “alone” bit; I would think that a form of incarceration that did more than just throw someone behind bars for a period of time would have a much greater impact.

Unfortunately, the context of this discussion was set by Professor Rapist, who I think is obliquely referencing studies like the above in order to claim that any punishment whatsoever for rape is ineffective…

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

No, prison isn’t a deterrent to crime. But as POM said, most rapists offend more than once.
https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

Of the 120 rapists in the sample, 44 reported only one assault. The remaining 76 were repeat offenders. These 76 men, 63% of the rapists, committed 439 rapes or attempted rapes, an average of 5.8 each (median of 3, so there were some super-repeat offenders in this group). Just 4% of the men surveyed committed over 400 attempted or completed rapes.

Locking up a rapist after one offense would stop on average, 4.8 attempted or completed rapes then.

I’m possibly doing statistics wrong here because I’m really academically rusty. But the point still stands.

I don’t really understand why this conversation is even happening right now. It’s really veering too close to agreeing with the rape apologists/rapists for comfort.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Yeah, obviously the incapacitation effect takes some rapists out of commission, for a while, but so few rapes are even reported it makes little difference.

Few rapes are reported because the legal systems revictimizes. If the police actually investigated rape and the courts actually locked rapists up all without treating the victim like a criminal, a liar, or a slut, the rate of reporting would certainly go up.

I don’t think shrugging your shoulders and saying “meh, prison isn’t a deterrent, why bother?” is actually going to do anything to change rape culture.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ Kirkby

Cheers, I’ll have a look at that when I’m not on my phone.

Certainly not suggesting rape shouldn’t be a crime or that it shouldn’t be severely punished, just that there is little to no deterrent effect, either individually or collectively. If consequences of offending had any deterrent effect then places with the death penalty would have significantly lower violent crime rates.

There have been some modest successes with rehabilitation programmes but that’s mainly been with paedophiles, and in any event there isn’t much opportunity for such programmes in most prisons.

Catching and locking up rapists stops those individuals, for a bit, but has little influence on others.

autosoma
6 years ago

Sunny.., I wasn’t really thinking of it as an active discussion, I’ve had plenty of chats with rightwing fucknuts to know that it’s just blah blah blah. The thing is this type if guy does realise when he over steps the mark saying derogatory disrespectful shite they suddenly realise they are close to a hiding.

It’s not the best way to deal with people like them and violence is never a real solution, but sometimes just sometimes it’s fun. Thing is a lot of these guys use a threat if violence without any understanding of what it is really like.

See what these guys don’t realise its bloody hard work being a better man

Luzbelitx
6 years ago

Catching and locking up rapists stops those individuals, for a bit, but has little influence on others.

This sounds fair enough, except that there hasn’t been a lot of “catching and locking up rapists” going on in the past decades.

It’s obviously veeeeery slowly changing thanks to the efforts of mainly brave women. But we haven’t experienced a society in which rapists are actually being caught and locked up yet.

I am convinced a real change in rape convictions, as in, it working at least as effectively as convictions of other crimes, will in fact have influence in society.

Not only will rapists face consequences, but victims will not be afraid to come forward, and to denounce early steps of violence which eventually lead to rape (and murder in the case of violent partners).

When considering this, we must take into account that the main source of impunity for rapists is the stigma placed on the victim, and the extremely low rate of accusations due to said stigma (and police and institutions acting based on a stigma instead of a law).

autosoma
6 years ago
Reply to  kirbywarp

Sorry if I didn’t explain myself properly, I was talking about my general experiences of incarceration. I’m probable going to louse up what I would like to get across. I cannot comprehend what drives a man to rape. Their mindset is alien to me. I also don’t know what works to make a rapist be accountable for his crime. I married someone who was massively affected by the brutality of her own experience, all I’ve ever tried to do is to listen when she wants to talk and presume/say nothing in response. I have no expertise in this area and if I’ve said wrong stuff, I apologise and am happy to be corrected.

NicolaLuna
NicolaLuna
6 years ago

This is all I can muster right now.

http://i.imgur.com/4V0Q2rm.gif

Ellesar
Ellesar
6 years ago

Even if a rapist rapes again after he leaves prison I still want him to go there. Prison is punishment first, rehabilitation second. Most prisons fail at the rehab bit, so removal from society is the best thing previous and potential victims can hope for.

Their idea that women just shouldn’t make such a fuss about it – well that already exists. It is called not telling anyone, and is very common. Then there is not going to the police – you have told someone close to you, but it doesn’t go further. That is also very common.

I tried to find any evidence that the rape in marriage law in the UK (1991) had led to any convictions, and I couldn’t find any. I read that if you are not separated and living apart from your husband it just is not worth reporting. Somehow I don’t think that the law being brought in acted as a huge deterrent for rapist husbands.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Just one more reason women don’t report.
http://jezebel.com/nypd-sergeant-suspended-after-throwing-semen-on-woman-h-1716509600

The cops are just as bad as the rapists and often are the rapists.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

My experience in the (civilian) criminal justice system doesn’t give me much faith in rehabilitation. I think prison is only effective in terms of incapacitation. The only way to use prison to reduce rapes is to lock up rapists (who, as has been pointed out tend to be repeat offenders) for longer.

I’ve had many discussions with friends who specialise in rape cases (defending and prosecuting). The defenders tend to be women so they have a particular interest in seeing the incidence of rape reduced. The general consensus is that there’s little that can be done to improve conviction rates. There have been some efforts, for instance judges now direct juries about rape “myths” e.g. they explain why it’s common for women to not go to the police immediately. . But in most cases the issue is consent and the parties are known to each other so the burden and standard of proof will always mean that where there’s even the slightest possibility that the defendant may be telling the truth there has to be an acquittal. Remember, it’s not enough to prove lack of consent; they just must be *sure* that the defendant knew there was no consent.

There have been some efforts to change the law to shift the burden of proof in some circumstances (where the complainant lacks capacity, where there is evidence of violent coercion etc.) but that doesn’t seem to have made a lot of difference.

So the only way to incarcerate more rapists is for more women to come forward. The main two inhibitors against this though are stigma and the horribleness of the court process. I do some training for people who will be giving evidence (not necessarily as a victim/complainant) and even the most robust of people are terrified at the prospect. Sometimes they can be reassured when the process is explained to them but rape victims rarely get this training. It is permissible to give them some advance indications of what to expect but prosecutors have to be careful to avoid anything that can lead to suggestions of ‘coaching’.

Essentially we need a societal change so that rape victims are seen as unblameworthy as any other crime victim. Not sure how we bring that about though.

Chaos-Engineer
Chaos-Engineer
6 years ago

#3 is the worst coffee cup *ever*.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

@autosoma
Ah now I get you.

Belladonna993
6 years ago

So, false rape accusations harm society, because they cause emotional harm. But rape doesn’t cause emotional harm, so prosecuting it isn’t beneficial to society. I guess you have to be considered a real person for your emotional harm to matter to the wellbeing of “society.”

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
6 years ago

I’ve made myself read the entire post on the second try. And it’s as sickening, if not more, as it was when I tried it in the morning. There are not enough “I can’t even”s.

But let’s remember that these are not just some few profoundly empathy- and humanity-deficient 4Channers who subscribe to this… ideology — this is the reigning paradigm on rape in the whole manuresphere and beyond.

Any public conversation on the subject is proof of that. From the continuing staunch denials of Cosby’s culpability to the wrong wingers’ attempts to re-define rape via semantic maneuvers (“legitimate rape,” etc.), we can see how easy it is for so many men (and some women) to dismiss the suffering of rape victims. The breathtaking callousness with which they do so makes one despair for humanity.

The quote bounced around under one of the previous posts (and I don’t remember the author now, sorry) about women not really knowing how much men hate them is very apropos here, I’d say.

If it offends any tender Misogynist Rape Apologists’ sensibilities, they can always refer to this post and thousands like it littering the web (and/or look in the mirror).

The prevailing societal approach to rape, if nothing else, is what makes feminism urgently necessary still.

Luzbelitx
6 years ago

So the only way to incarcerate more rapists is for more women to come forward.

I believe leaving victims as the “only” people who can fix it, is not something that helps victims. Like, at all.

You are admitting yourself that victims already have enough of an ordeal for a very slim chance of justice.

I don’t mean to be rude, but this type of statements, even among a very reasonable exposition, are essentially harmful.

How about social protest to have judges who make excuses for rape removed from their offices?

I know this isn’t necessarily easy to achieve, but hey, it’s an option different from placing all responsibility on the shoulders of victims.

How about civil society pushing for accountability of police who mishandle rape victims and their cases?

Again, it’s easier to point and the victims and tell them to fight harder, than to mess with the trained armed guys…

But who has the power to change and is using it to make things worse instead?

Certainly not rape victims, whether they came forward or not.

If the change actually comes from more victims coming forward, then the job at hand is to make it safer for victims to come forward, and THAT’s what I’d like to hear about.

PS: apologies in advance if I was extra-snarky, not the best day for me -.-

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
6 years ago

@Alan:

You intimated in an earlier comment that you’d be in favor of more drastic punishments for rapists — is that correct?

I happen to believe that if rape was punished swiftly (key word) and severely (with a loss of limb or life, for example), we would see a change; although I admit I don’t know what the data on the relationship between the severity of punishment and rates of recidivism says. One can dream, though, even against the whispers of angels of one’s better nature.

We are too nice to rapists, is the bottom line, IMO. That’s a price to pay, one of too many, for living in the male-normative society.

Luzbelitx
6 years ago

We are too nice to rapists, is the bottom line, IMO. That’s a price to pay, one of too many, for living in the male-normative society.

I used to believe this.

Now, I think it’s not the price but the cause.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ Aunt Edna

You intimated in an earlier comment that you’d be in favor of more drastic punishments for rapists — is that correct?

It’s not a punishment thing; I’m not a particularly vengeful type, just a practical solution. I’d be quite happy to see rapists removed from society. I know theoretically prison does that, but it costs over £30K a year for each prisoner (money that could be better spent) and I know that their victims face ongoing torture themselves just knowing the rapist still exists and one day will be released.

Similarly, I don’t have any problem with violence or the threat of violence being used as a deterrent. Again, it’s not a vengeance thing or even some sort of machismo, but I have on occasion had to make it clear to people that if they try to hurt someone I care about there will be consequences. Not as a punishment; just as a practical measure.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ Luz

No need for apologies, I see your point.

We should obviously do what we can to help people who want to come forward, but our options are limited. What really can we do?

We can not stigmatise victims; that seems to be the main one. There’s a lot of work to be done there though.

Remove judges who excuse rape? Well, in the UK rape trials are handled by juries so there’s not too much scope for judges to interfere. There have been one or two isolated instances of judges *saying* stupid things; and they have been removed from future trials, but fortunately that was a rare thing and judges who have their “ticket” to do sex cases have special training and are usually pretty on the ball.

Improve police practice? Certainly. There have been some steps in that direction and now there are special sex offence teams. It’s always going to be a horrible experience though for any victim as, by the very nature of investigating a crime, they have to relive the experience.

Unfortunately the key witness in a rape case is almost always going to be the victim so the issue is how to help them come forward. For the reasons above that’s always going to be hard.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

Let me say something about deterrence.

Deterrence is a weird legal concept. If our goal is deterrence, and deterrence only, then for some crimes it makes no sense to lock up anyone, or even have a law against it, and for others it would make sense to lock up the first plausible suspect we can find and not waste our time and money worrying about whether or not we have the right person. If deterrence works, and deterrence is our only goal, then it will work so long as the general public believes we have locked up the right person, whether or not that person is actually guilty. If deterrence doesn’t work, and deterrence is our only goal, then there’s no point locking up anyone and we might as well not even criminalize whatever behavior we’re talking about.

In any case, we don’t really need a system of justice to determine who is guilty and who isn’t. Just lock up whoever we can pin the blame on for any crime where deterrence works, and don’t even bother investigating any crime for which deterrence doesn’t work.

I hope everyone can see the moral problems with this scenario. I really give a side-eye to anyone who hammers on about deterrence-deterrence-deterrence (I’m side-eying you in particular, Alan) without considering any other goal of the criminal justice system. The criminal justice system cares about more than merely deterrence, and society cares about more than merely deterrence. Deterrence is great, and if we can deter crime, that’s awesome, but to shrug a big ol’ shrug when deterrence isn’t working properly is ridiculously nearsighted.

However:

Punishing crime does have a deterrent effect. What the fuck kind of information are you using to say it doesn’t? I have a journal article in front of me that says that the entire premise upon which you are arguing is bullshit.

autosoma
6 years ago
Reply to  sunnysombrera

Actually, I just googled better man and the first page looked a bit PUA/RSD, do that’s not what I meant… Maybe I should get myself a T-shirt saying

100% Mangina fancy a go

I could definitely pull it off, wearing it that is

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

Hi POM

I do take your points. I’m certainly not arguing that we shouldn’t lock up rapists (or take other steps to remove their capacity for offending).

Traditionally imprisonment has been justified for 5 main reasons:

Individual deterrence (i.e. puts the actual offender off re-offending)
Collective deterrence (i.e. puts anyone else thinking of committing a crime off)
Public retribution
Rehabilitation
Containment

It’s generally accepted though that violent and sexual offending is less affected by deterrence (as opposed to say acquisitive offending). There are plenty of studies demonstrating this; and whilst anecdotal evidence isn’t worth much from my own experience of speaking to clients it’s clear that they didn’t give any thought to the consequences of their actions.

As I’ve re-iterated, I’m quite in favour of locking rapists up, in my experience containment is the only thing prison is good for and that is one way of incapacitating rapists; but that only deals with the miniscule number who are caught and convicted. We need other solutions for the rest.

ryohji
ryohji
6 years ago

Sorry to say that but I just want to meet one of these scum who dare to vomit that on 4chan and beat some sens in them, until my hands get numbs. I’m just angry at that shit!

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
6 years ago

I’m not vengeful either; I just happen to think that if we removed the rapists’ penises or arms or heads, or maybe all four, we’d see a dramatic drop in the rates of rape. Also save monies on housing rapists, their appeals, etc.

Not being venegful, but also purely practical. Seriously.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

Remove judges who excuse rape? Well, in the UK rape trials are handled by juries so there’s not too much scope for judges to interfere. There have been one or two isolated instances of judges *saying* stupid things; and they have been removed from future trials, but fortunately that was a rare thing and judges who have their “ticket” to do sex cases have special training and are usually pretty on the ball.

Judges however can give lenient sentences with a hand wave of “well she looked older than her years” or “she led you on” or some other bullshit.

Also, regarding deterrence: as much as I’d like to see more rehabilitation in prisons I’ve always felt that the main purpose of jail for criminals like rapists is, as someone else said above, to prevent them from being able to commit crimes. Which is also why I DEEPLY wish UK sentences for rape were longer than a few years. Most rapists are serial ones and five-ish years is just not enough – when they get out they’re going to rape again. No doubt.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
6 years ago

You know, this:

It’s generally accepted though that violent and sexual offending is less affected by deterrence (as opposed to say acquisitive offending).

and this:

there is little to no deterrent effect, either individually or collectively.

are not equivalent statements. The first one is true, the second one is complete nonsense.

Arrest rates have been found to have roughly twice the impact on property crime vs. violent crime. That does not mean that violent crime is not deterred or that we should just brush off any deterrent effect it has.

whilst anecdotal evidence isn’t worth much from my own experience of speaking to clients it’s clear that they didn’t give any thought to the consequences of their actions.

Have you noticed that your anecdote set doesn’t include the people who were actually deterred from committing a crime, and therefore never ended up in front of you? This is a sterling example of why anecdotes are not a substitute for data. Your selection is extremely biased.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ sunnysombrera

“well she looked older than her years”

Actually, if a woman is over 13 that would be an actual defence rather than mitigation, lovely huh?

Sentencing for rape is low. The starting point for a ‘standard’ rape is 5 years on conviction; and of course offenders only serve half that. Judges have been getting better at dealing with (known) recidivists though. They’re handing out much longer sentences and using the life sentence provisions more freely. Obviously life doesn’t mean life in the immediate sense, a person will serve a fixed number of years. However they will be on life licence so if they breach their licence conditions they can be hauled back off to prison fairly easily without the necessity of another trial.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@POM

the second one is complete nonsense.

I have to disagree with you there; study after study shows that to be the case. It’s one of the major issues in penal policy in England so it crops up a lot in the literature as you can imagine.

You’re right as to anecdotal evidence which is why I qualified my remarks. However the data still has some value. It can be compared against that from non violent/sexual offenders (for whom the consequences rom part of the cost/benefit analysis).

As I have said repeatedly though I’m not arguing rapists should not be sent to prison; just that, as the conviction rate is so low, something else will need to be done *in addition* to deal with the vast majority of rapists.

GiJoel
GiJoel
6 years ago

I need a cat chaser stat

Ellesar
Ellesar
6 years ago

autosoma – love that t-shirt idea!

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

@Alan
Low conviction rate, low sentencing, gee I wonder why rape victims don’t usually come forward? Sigh. This is the kind of thing Luz was talking about. Why would victims come forward to be dragged over hot coals in court, for their rapists to either get off scot free or be out again in a couple of years (and in either case, the victim risks retaliation from said rapist as well)?

This isn’t at you Alan of course, it’s just frustrating that there is so little out there to help stop rape.