On this most epic of Pride Weekends, MRA Paul Elam welcomes gays “to the gallows”

All lesbians are poor because if they’re together, the wage gap which doesn’t exist affects them twice as much. But there is no wage gap, either.

MRA “logic.”

Once again, a poignant and timely reminder of why LGBT+ people don’t need a “Men’s HUMAN Rights” bowel movement to help them get equality, freedom and respect:

I will say congratulations to the gay community.

And welcome to the governmental tyranny over your lives with the rest of us.

And the LGBT+ community will say: “I’m sorry, who are you? And what is this ‘governmental tyranny’ you speak of? We just got a couple dozen state governments off our necks here. Kindly fuck off and let us get on with our lives, because we still have plenty of work to do to make sure none of us can still get legally fired from our jobs, thrown out of housing, etc., and all just for being different from the cis-het rest. Oak hay?”

Instead of less government intrusion in their private lives, the gay community has just seen the floodgates open. They will start figuring it out when the divorces start rolling in, especially for couples with adopted children and one crazy spouse. It will be even worse for gay parents. Adopted children are already damaged from some form of abandonment. A follow-up of dose parental alientation is hardly what they need.

It is exactly what many of them will get.

Coming from a proud deadbeat dad, who deliberately and purposefully alienated himself from his own kids to avoid paying for their food, shelter, and clothing (not to mention education), this means a lot, I’m sure.

Meanwhile, my best friend and his hubby have been together for over 25 years, and legally married for almost 10 of those. I attended their “holy union” ceremony, which was the first same-sex wedding (unofficially) performed by the chaplain of our university. Their two adopted sons are almost grown, and no alienation in sight. And no “crazy spouse” (no doubt Paulie pictures that one in the role of “wife”), either. They’re both stable and happy, AND prosperous. Oh dears!

I support the right of every gay man to be treated no differently by society or under the law than anyone else. So in a system that sucks, and laws that suck, and the beatings they and their children will take I will be happy to make room in the foxhole right alongside the rest of us.

Perhaps a generation or two in the trenches of family law will convince them a little more thought should be put into their cause.

They won’t be joining you in your shithole anytime, soon, Paulie…because for one thing, unlike you, they get along great with women. A solid majority of them are staunch feminists as well as LGBT+ rights activists. And they’ve put a helluva lot more thought into their causes than you have with yours…because for one thing, their movement is DECADES older. So, in fact, they know a boatload more about law (including family law) than you.

Again, my best friend and his hubby know what it’s like to have to jump through hoops for years just to be able to adopt…and one of the first things they had to demonstrate was that theirs was a stable and happy home, capable of keeping two kids who’d been through the foster-care system stable and happy, too. So they’ve already been through their “beatings”, and passed the test with flying colors.

So who will play the role of the male?

Both of them! Unless they’re both women, in which case both will play the role of the female, duh. And the gender-variant ones will work their own things out too, I’m sure.

See, this is one of the things I sincerely envy my LGBT+ friends: They can actually disregard those outmoded gender roles, and divide their domestic tasks more equitably along the lines of who prefers what, or who’s better at what, or just take turns at them if there are no clear preferences or aptitude differences. There’s no “man’s work” and “woman’s work” for them; it’s just WORK, period. Marriage equality, in their case, doesn’t just mean an equal right for gays and straights to marry, but also an equality in the same-sex relationship that’s damn hard for heterosexual couples to find. We could all learn so much from them!

Of course, that’s not what these gender-role enforcers want to hear, is it?

The only solution to Gay Marriage IS Gay Divorce.

In Ontario it has been a bit of a(trigger alert) sniggering disgrace, the activities of the Gay community, but now they are finding out what it is to be truly miserable. No longer will they be able to trade one boy toy for another, once they put a ring on his finger, or other appendage.

(waving) Hi, proud Ontarian here! And my gay best friend and his hubby are also proud Ontarians. You may be interested to know that most gay guys of my acquaintance aren’t the sort that go chasing after “toy boys” (what are those, dildoes?)…they’re regular joe-types who love their partners and their jobs and their kids, cats, and dogs. They’re stable and healthy and happy. If you knew them, you would envy them. Alas, Clearly A Dinker, you don’t know them. And your life is the poorer for it. Because through them, I know a bit about what it means to have to fight for years just to gain any legal recognition for your relationship at all…even though it’s more committed than most straight people have ever been. This never-married cis-het woman wishes that she had a love that was as great as their love.

Figures, though, that guys like these know nothing of love, not even vicariously. No wonder they spend all their time spinning and stewing in their inane little world of hate.

Aaaand I just got eaten by the Blockquote Mammoth and the Moderation Mammoth both. Could someone please fix my first blockquote before you put me through? It got mangled. Thanks muchly.

I don’t think they’ve thought this through. They do realise the legal changes mean gay men are now allowed to marry other gay men, rather than women, right? The ones who are more likely to be joining them in their foxhole over “teh wimmins iz crazeee” are lesbian women! Who will, of course, bring their girl cooties with them when they do.

But seriously – I have no doubt there will be homosexual and bisexual people marrying partners of the same gender identity as themselves for exactly the same sorts of daft reasons that heterosexual people have used down through the ages (we thought we were in love; they wouldn’t say yes to sex without marriage; our parents arranged it for us; we thought it would bring us together; etc etc etc) and getting divorced as a result when it turns out marriage isn’t the magic cure-all for relationships people treat it as. There will be non-heterosexual couples marrying in haste and repenting at leisure, and about the only positive thing which can be said for it in this case is there’s less likely to be a pregnancy driving things (unless we have a couple who are very much innocent of the truths of biology, very much addicted to slash or yaoi fic, and very much hooked on the “magical pregnancy” subgenre – I’ve no doubt there’ll be one some day!). There will be gold-digging non-heterosexual people attempting to latch onto a sugar daddy or sugar mama, and so on. People are people, regardless of their sexual orientation, and some people get married for the strangest reasons.

There will also be a majority of couples who work hard to have a successful relationship with each other, and who truly care about their partners. There will be marriages which work, marriages which last long enough to get into the silver and golden wedding territory. There will be marriages which break up simply because the partners discover they still love each other, but they genuinely can’t live with each other (and there will be marriages where the partners come to this conclusion but remain married, each living in their separate domiciles). There will be couples, both heterosexual and non-heterosexual, who decide they don’t want to bother with the hassle of marriage, but who remain together for multiple decades none the less (My partner and I are up to about seventeen years together so far, and counting). Again, people are people. For some of us, it works.

Bina: the big difference between the LGBTQIA+ activists and the Men’s Rights “activists” is that the LGBTQIA+ activists are actually, y’know, active. They’ve managed the cognitive leap from “we want X” to “what shall we do about it”, and have realised that one of the sure-fire not-gonna-work strategies is “sit in chatrooms on the internet whining about how nobody’s given us X yet”. So they get out there and do things.

Unlike the MRAs, who appear to believe if they just whine for long enough, people will do what they want in order to shut them up or something.

What the fuck is he talking about re: Ontario? Canada has had marriage equality for 10 years.

The stories I’ve heard from people mostly involve stuff like the court giving 50-50 custody even when the father was an abusive jerk. It seems like it’s really difficult to prove any type of abuse accusation in family court since “clear and convincing evidence” is usually the standard of proof in child custody cases (i.e., it doesn’t matter if the woman has hospital records showing she was beaten).

@ History Nerd

The thing to remember about family law, certainly in the UK, and in some US jurisdictions is that whilst parents have some procedural rights (e.g. to give evidence etc) they have no substantive rights; only the child does.

Courts will always strive to ensure that a child has access to both parents (note: not the other way round) unless there’s a threat to the child.

The fact one parent may be a violent asshole to the other is irrelevant if they’re not violent to the child. Courts don’t remove access to children as a punishment for bad behaviour.

Obviously that can be hard on the battered parent, especially when they are told to cooperate with the abuser by say, updating on school reports etc. But parents are expected to put their own issues aside and do what’s best for the child.

Jubal:

Huh. Canada had marriage equality for the last ten years, doesn’t Clear Thinker know that?

I know right? And since he apparently didn’t know that, obviously it hasn’t affected his life at all… And 10 years of those “hard truths” that Clear Thinker was spouting hasn’t driven gay men to demand that “real marriage” be left to straight people. So I can say with authority that “Clear Thinker” is filled with a metric fuckton of shit.

The entire MRA spiel is based on the idea that divorce is painful for men because of evil women and femsupremacist judges. If they’ve discovered that divorce still hurts if no women are in the room, they should rethink their entire philosophy. Could it be that love and family are inherently high-stakes endeavors that will end badly for many people, even if there is no villain and no oppressive government?

Also: gay divorce isn’t some kind of gotcha. It’s one of the best things about gay marriage. If they think family court sucks now, they should see what it’s like if you’re not legally related to your kids.

I see MRAs are the last people in the universe who are still going “But if a dude marries another dude, who wears the pants?”

I haven’t done any research on this, but I’m pretty sure that anyone who uses the word “Wampum” is probably a racist of some fashion. I do admit, I could be wrong, and will accept correction if I am.