Categories
a voice for men all about the menz antifeminism big daddy government drama kings entitled babies evil ex-wives evil wives hetsplaining homophobia men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA oppressed men patronizing as heck paul elam

On this most epic of Pride Weekends, MRA Paul Elam welcomes gays “to the gallows”

Jim Obergefell, the named plaintiff in the Supreme Court case that legalized gay marriage nationwide, celebrates yesterday in Cincinnati with his attorney
Jim Obergefell, the named plaintiff in the Supreme Court case that legalized gay marriage nationwide, celebrates yesterday in Cincinnati with his attorney (not Dr. Gonzo)

Pride parades are a bit more fabulous than usual this Pride Weekend, on the heels of the Supreme Court ruling making gay marriage legal across the United States.

A Voice for Men “CEO” Paul Elam is using the occasion as an opportunity to “warn” unwary gay marriers that they may be embarking on “a trip to the gallows.”

Elam, you see, considers himself a bit of an expert on marriages — possibly because he’s had so many of them himself — and wants gays to know that marriage is terrible and that their celebrations this weekend will ring hollow once they end up in divorce court.

After acknowledging that, sure, laws should apply equally to gays and non-gays alike, he offers up this disconcerting toast to all the potential new marriers:

I will say congratulations to the gay community.

And welcome to the governmental tyranny over your lives with the rest of us.

NOTE TO ALL POTENTIAL BRIDES AND GROOMS: Whether you are gay or straight or something else, don’t invite Paul Elam to your wedding.

Elam delivers up a patronizing lecture to “the gay community,” complete with a nasty little aside suggesting that adopted children are all “damaged.”

Instead of less government intrusion in their private lives, the gay community has just seen the floodgates open. They will start figuring it out when the divorces start rolling in, especially for couples with adopted children and one crazy spouse. It will be even worse for gay parents. Adopted children are already damaged from some form of abandonment. A follow-up of dose parental alientation is hardly what they need.

It is exactly what many of them will get.

Elam predicts that gay men — he seems to have forgotten about lesbians — will end up joining him in his “foxhole” once they realize just how right he is and how thoughtless “their cause” has been.

I support the right of every gay man to be treated no differently by society or under the law than anyone else. So in a system that sucks, and laws that suck, and the beatings they and their children will take I will be happy to make room in the foxhole right alongside the rest of us.

Perhaps a generation or two in the trenches of family law will convince them a little more thought should be put into their cause.

Somehow I doubt it. After all, more than a few in the Men’s Rights movement have trouble understanding just why gay people get together at all. In their minds, after all, most relationships between men and women are all about “privileged females” extracting resources from their own private “disposable males.”

But what if both of them are dudes?

Dun dun DUUUUUUH!
Dun dun DUUUUUUH!

In the comments to Elam’s article, regular AVFM contributor Tom Golden — described in his bio on the site as “a psychotherapist specializing in men and boys’ issues [and] a member of Warren Farrell’s proposed White House Council on Boys and Men” — asks a classic ignorant question:

So who will play the role of the male? How will the family court hyenas decide who will get the shaft? Maybe money will be the factor? The lawyers will favor he who has more wampum? Then again maybe since they are both males they will both get the shaft?

Someone calling himself Clear Thinker offered up a wall of text, which I’ve taken the liberty of breaking into paragraphs, with especially, er, “clear” thinking bolded.

The only solution to Gay Marriage IS Gay Divorce.

In Ontario it has been a bit of a(trigger alert) sniggering disgrace, the activities of the Gay community, but now they are finding out what it is to be truly miserable. No longer will they be able to trade one boy toy for another, once they put a ring on his finger, or other appendage.

The rich old Queen’s of Toronto will now face what heterosexual men have known for 30 years in our Province … You will pay alimony to your husband or wife or whatever it is you call it. If you have adopted children, which is all the rage these days, the courts will hand over the children to the mentally ill partner, as this is what they do today and yesterday to the men of real marriage.

Now you will have real marriage, and you will be toast.

Imagine our jails filled with gay deadbeat dads who wont pay the court ordered baksheesh demanded by the boy toy. Guys you have been warned, Lesbian women, no one cares, you don’t have any money, and if a judge can figure out which one of you is the most crazy, then that one will win.

Welcome to the real world of family law, and if you are in a fight, YOU WILL DO all that you can, to crush the one you said you loved. Call me in 5 years and tell me how right I was/am. America, read, learn, then laugh. This disaster for gay men is on its’ way to them right now.

Yeah, I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before gay men flock to you guys for answers.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

111 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
samantha
samantha
5 years ago

I have rarely been so disgusted. These “men” need a quick, and powerful, lesson in compassion and reality.

To the gay community across this nation, I say a happy YAY!!!!! May you all find joy in your marriages, in yourselves and in each other.

And please ignore the stupids of this world. They have nothing better to do with their lives then try to make all of ours unhappy.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

MRAs hate marriage because feeemales, but there aren’t any feeemales in a same-sex male couple… Huh?

theladyzombie
5 years ago

I used to say smart-assed things like “I support gay marriage because everyone deserves the right to be miserable. Har har.

I stopped saying that a while ago because it just wasn’t funny, it was gross, and it stemmed from my heteronormative privilege. So yeah, don’t do that.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

Holy moly. Fuck you, Elam and “Clear Thinker”. Go eat a mountain of dicks, each.

Danny Chameleon
Danny Chameleon
5 years ago

@sunnysombrera
How is eating a mountain of dicks insulting (as, I’m assuming, was your intention)?

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

Lesbian women, no one cares, you don’t have any money, and if a judge can figure out which one of you is the most crazy, then that one will win.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/bluahh.gif

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Do they really think courts go out of their way to give the kids to the mentally ill parent? I would think that it would be the opposite and the mentally ill are probably discriminated against in family court.

Besides, I thought only men could be for real mentally ill and feeemales are just making it up for attention.

Anne
Anne
5 years ago

We had same sex marriage in Denmark for ages. And same sex divorce. The World hasnt come to an end – go check reality, Lame Paul…

Danny Chameleon
Danny Chameleon
5 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

sooooo not true. “Real men” NEVER have mental illness, only womenz have “the crazys”. Hence the stigma attached to mental illness, and the reason that so few actually seek treatment.

Jubal
5 years ago

Huh. Canada had marriage equality for the last ten years, doesn’t Clear Thinker know that?

sn0rkmaiden
5 years ago

‘Adopted children are already damaged from some form of abandonment. A follow-up of dose parental alientation is hardly what they need.’

Abandoned and alienated children? At least this is an area in which Elam has some first hand experience.

spacelawn
5 years ago

This is dumb and wrong on so many levels.

A) They assume that all marriages end in divorce.

B) They seem to think all gay men are raging sex addicts that wants to bang every man in sight.

C) These guys always seem to think that a divorce happens because the wife/husband is “crazy” Elem, your ex-wives aren’t crazy, they are the sane ones here.

Also, HST is Dr. Gonzo. His attorney is just that.

My. Attorney.

The action never stops in this town.

Rosemary
Rosemary
5 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

MRAs love e-diagnosing women with personality disorders. According to Red Pillers in particular, 99% of women have Borderline Personality Disorder.

Misha
Misha
5 years ago

If MRA’s hate marriage so much then … don’t get married?

Oh fuck it, I don’t understand what they want anymore. Is this an anti-government thing? Did feminists do it? Why does Elam want the gay community to climb into a foxhole with him? Did the feminists marry the foxes? What’s even happening???

http://memecrunch.com/meme/69EXX/i-dont-know-whats-going-on/image.jpg

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

@Danny
I had a feeling someone might pick me up on that. Sorry, it just tumbled out.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

MRAs just have no consistency. When it’s convenient, women are crazy. But when they’re talking about male suicide, only men really get depression. Women only attempt suicide for attention.

NicolaLuna
NicolaLuna
5 years ago

Yeah, “clear thinker” clearly knows fuck-all about family court. Both myself and my sister have been dragged though awful custody battles by our exes. In my case, my son’s dad (who had been in and out of my son’s life since he was a baby and who I had relentlessly tried to maintain contact with for my son) decided that he wanted 100% custody.

In both my case and my sister’s case, our exes pulled the predictable bullshit move of screeching “she’s crazy!!” in order to make themselves seem like the better parent. I had to undergo a mental health assessment which was fucking horrible knowing what was at stake. I had to explain to court social workers how long I’ve been on antidepressants and how I cope with living with depression. I had to prove that I manage my depression well enough to not effect my son.

The entire case I was offering him 50-50 custody and he was adamant that he was getting 100%. We were awarded 50-50 and the judge remarked that I had been balanced and fair throughout, refusing to sling accusations back despite having an array thrown at me. He said that the investigation into my parenting had been a waste of court resources.

Once again an MRA spouting lies to suit their agenda. This has seriously pissed me off.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

There’s no logic in this.

So who will play the role of the male? How will the family court hyenas decide who will get the shaft?

Tom Golden is groping toward some kind of reason here, but doesn’t find it. If you go by MRA calculus, divorce ends 100% of the time in the man getting screwed. However, in a gay male divorce, only 50% of the men will be screwed (MRAs don’t acknowledge the possibility of divorce without someone getting the shaft, so work with me on that one). This is a win for 50% of gay men! They should be happy!

Except that Elam and the other MRAs here are clearly speaking to only a particular subset of men. The “butch” gay man, the guy who is a Real Man ™. They’re not talking to effeminate gay men (who are not “really” men), and they are assuming that all gay marriages will be 1 butch man and 1 effeminate man.

In other words, they are speaking from a heteronormative perspective, and showing no awareness of a world outside that perspective. Surprise! MRAs are homophobic even when they are trying not to be!

Hoosier X
5 years ago

Is anyone surprised that there was nothing from the MRAs that was stupider than most of the “judicial” “reasoning” in Scalia’s dissent?

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Nequam

The bottom one is awesome, but Metalocalypse trumps all.

TRUMPS. ALL.

Binjabreel
5 years ago

“Lesbians don’t have any money”
But the wage gap is a myth, eh MRA’s?

Eitan
Eitan
5 years ago

Last time I checked gay marriage was already legal in a few states, New York included since the 2010s at least. Somehow I dont see rioting near my house.

scarlettpipstrelle
5 years ago

Where does he get the idea that all lesbians are poor? Several of the ones I know are professionals, property owners, business owners, and a few I’ve known live in posh gated communities.

Binjabreel
5 years ago

Honestly? Not really. Thomas and Scalia are so intensely stupid that I’ve given up all hope.

Anyone else hoping that Scalia dies before Thomas does? I desperately want to see him deflate once Scalia pulls his hand out of him.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@scarlettpipstrelle

Because they’re whole schtick is that women are screaming, money-sucking harpies who latch onto betas to suck them dry while popping out babies from alphas. Lesbians or anyone who isn’t in a relationship with a man kinda throw a wrench in the machine.

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 years ago

All lesbians are poor because if they’re together, the wage gap which doesn’t exist affects them twice as much. But there is no wage gap, either.

MRA “logic.”

Film Runner
5 years ago

See this is what happens when your entire view of human relationships is based on trying to dominate the other sex to make yourself feel big. Plus an ungodly amount of projection.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Once again, a poignant and timely reminder of why LGBT+ people don’t need a “Men’s HUMAN Rights” bowel movement to help them get equality, freedom and respect:

I will say congratulations to the gay community.

And welcome to the governmental tyranny over your lives with the rest of us.

And the LGBT+ community will say: “I’m sorry, who are you? And what is this ‘governmental tyranny’ you speak of? We just got a couple dozen state governments off our necks here. Kindly fuck off and let us get on with our lives, because we still have plenty of work to do to make sure none of us can still get legally fired from our jobs, thrown out of housing, etc., and all just for being different from the cis-het rest. Oak hay?”

Instead of less government intrusion in their private lives, the gay community has just seen the floodgates open. They will start figuring it out when the divorces start rolling in, especially for couples with adopted children and one crazy spouse. It will be even worse for gay parents. Adopted children are already damaged from some form of abandonment. A follow-up of dose parental alientation is hardly what they need.

It is exactly what many of them will get.

Coming from a proud deadbeat dad, who deliberately and purposefully alienated himself from his own kids to avoid paying for their food, shelter, and clothing (not to mention education), this means a lot, I’m sure.

Meanwhile, my best friend and his hubby have been together for over 25 years, and legally married for almost 10 of those. I attended their “holy union” ceremony, which was the first same-sex wedding (unofficially) performed by the chaplain of our university. Their two adopted sons are almost grown, and no alienation in sight. And no “crazy spouse” (no doubt Paulie pictures that one in the role of “wife”), either. They’re both stable and happy, AND prosperous. Oh dears!

I support the right of every gay man to be treated no differently by society or under the law than anyone else. So in a system that sucks, and laws that suck, and the beatings they and their children will take I will be happy to make room in the foxhole right alongside the rest of us.

Perhaps a generation or two in the trenches of family law will convince them a little more thought should be put into their cause.

They won’t be joining you in your shithole anytime, soon, Paulie…because for one thing, unlike you, they get along great with women. A solid majority of them are staunch feminists as well as LGBT+ rights activists. And they’ve put a helluva lot more thought into their causes than you have with yours…because for one thing, their movement is DECADES older. So, in fact, they know a boatload more about law (including family law) than you.

Again, my best friend and his hubby know what it’s like to have to jump through hoops for years just to be able to adopt…and one of the first things they had to demonstrate was that theirs was a stable and happy home, capable of keeping two kids who’d been through the foster-care system stable and happy, too. So they’ve already been through their “beatings”, and passed the test with flying colors.

So who will play the role of the male?

Both of them! Unless they’re both women, in which case both will play the role of the female, duh. And the gender-variant ones will work their own things out too, I’m sure.

See, this is one of the things I sincerely envy my LGBT+ friends: They can actually disregard those outmoded gender roles, and divide their domestic tasks more equitably along the lines of who prefers what, or who’s better at what, or just take turns at them if there are no clear preferences or aptitude differences. There’s no “man’s work” and “woman’s work” for them; it’s just WORK, period. Marriage equality, in their case, doesn’t just mean an equal right for gays and straights to marry, but also an equality in the same-sex relationship that’s damn hard for heterosexual couples to find. We could all learn so much from them!

Of course, that’s not what these gender-role enforcers want to hear, is it?

The only solution to Gay Marriage IS Gay Divorce.

In Ontario it has been a bit of a(trigger alert) sniggering disgrace, the activities of the Gay community, but now they are finding out what it is to be truly miserable. No longer will they be able to trade one boy toy for another, once they put a ring on his finger, or other appendage.

(waving) Hi, proud Ontarian here! And my gay best friend and his hubby are also proud Ontarians. You may be interested to know that most gay guys of my acquaintance aren’t the sort that go chasing after “toy boys” (what are those, dildoes?)…they’re regular joe-types who love their partners and their jobs and their kids, cats, and dogs. They’re stable and healthy and happy. If you knew them, you would envy them. Alas, Clearly A Dinker, you don’t know them. And your life is the poorer for it. Because through them, I know a bit about what it means to have to fight for years just to gain any legal recognition for your relationship at all…even though it’s more committed than most straight people have ever been. This never-married cis-het woman wishes that she had a love that was as great as their love.

Figures, though, that guys like these know nothing of love, not even vicariously. No wonder they spend all their time spinning and stewing in their inane little world of hate.

A.A. Wils
5 years ago

I just…what in the world?…I can’t…what the…I…oh fuck it. I can’t even get an insult out for what I just read. I can’t even “can’t even.”

@Nequam: thanks for those macros. They said in so few words what is in my heart.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Aaaand I just got eaten by the Blockquote Mammoth and the Moderation Mammoth both. Could someone please fix my first blockquote before you put me through? It got mangled. Thanks muchly.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Film Runner | June 28, 2015 at 5:16 pm
See this is what happens when your entire view of human relationships is based on trying to dominate the other sex to make yourself feel big. Plus an ungodly amount of projection.

Yup.

megpie71
5 years ago

I don’t think they’ve thought this through. They do realise the legal changes mean gay men are now allowed to marry other gay men, rather than women, right? The ones who are more likely to be joining them in their foxhole over “teh wimmins iz crazeee” are lesbian women! Who will, of course, bring their girl cooties with them when they do.

But seriously – I have no doubt there will be homosexual and bisexual people marrying partners of the same gender identity as themselves for exactly the same sorts of daft reasons that heterosexual people have used down through the ages (we thought we were in love; they wouldn’t say yes to sex without marriage; our parents arranged it for us; we thought it would bring us together; etc etc etc) and getting divorced as a result when it turns out marriage isn’t the magic cure-all for relationships people treat it as. There will be non-heterosexual couples marrying in haste and repenting at leisure, and about the only positive thing which can be said for it in this case is there’s less likely to be a pregnancy driving things (unless we have a couple who are very much innocent of the truths of biology, very much addicted to slash or yaoi fic, and very much hooked on the “magical pregnancy” subgenre – I’ve no doubt there’ll be one some day!). There will be gold-digging non-heterosexual people attempting to latch onto a sugar daddy or sugar mama, and so on. People are people, regardless of their sexual orientation, and some people get married for the strangest reasons.

There will also be a majority of couples who work hard to have a successful relationship with each other, and who truly care about their partners. There will be marriages which work, marriages which last long enough to get into the silver and golden wedding territory. There will be marriages which break up simply because the partners discover they still love each other, but they genuinely can’t live with each other (and there will be marriages where the partners come to this conclusion but remain married, each living in their separate domiciles). There will be couples, both heterosexual and non-heterosexual, who decide they don’t want to bother with the hassle of marriage, but who remain together for multiple decades none the less (My partner and I are up to about seventeen years together so far, and counting). Again, people are people. For some of us, it works.

frances
frances
5 years ago

Ah, good old Paul, always putting a positive spin on things. I bet he’s real fun at parties.

megpie71
5 years ago

Bina: the big difference between the LGBTQIA+ activists and the Men’s Rights “activists” is that the LGBTQIA+ activists are actually, y’know, active. They’ve managed the cognitive leap from “we want X” to “what shall we do about it”, and have realised that one of the sure-fire not-gonna-work strategies is “sit in chatrooms on the internet whining about how nobody’s given us X yet”. So they get out there and do things.

Unlike the MRAs, who appear to believe if they just whine for long enough, people will do what they want in order to shut them up or something.

steampunked (@steampunked)

Yes, indeed, disaster is most certainly a bad day in divorce court compared to not having the full human rights of heterosexual people.

dudeinthewoods
dudeinthewoods
5 years ago

What the fuck is he talking about re: Ontario? Canada has had marriage equality for 10 years.

History Nerd
5 years ago

The stories I’ve heard from people mostly involve stuff like the court giving 50-50 custody even when the father was an abusive jerk. It seems like it’s really difficult to prove any type of abuse accusation in family court since “clear and convincing evidence” is usually the standard of proof in child custody cases (i.e., it doesn’t matter if the woman has hospital records showing she was beaten).

leftwingfox
5 years ago

Holy shit, I nearly laughed a waffle out of my nose, Miss Andry.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ History Nerd

The thing to remember about family law, certainly in the UK, and in some US jurisdictions is that whilst parents have some procedural rights (e.g. to give evidence etc) they have no substantive rights; only the child does.

Courts will always strive to ensure that a child has access to both parents (note: not the other way round) unless there’s a threat to the child.

The fact one parent may be a violent asshole to the other is irrelevant if they’re not violent to the child. Courts don’t remove access to children as a punishment for bad behaviour.

Obviously that can be hard on the battered parent, especially when they are told to cooperate with the abuser by say, updating on school reports etc. But parents are expected to put their own issues aside and do what’s best for the child.

PatrickC
PatrickC
5 years ago

I guess Paul Elam doesn’t realize that by arguing that gay folks now face the ‘tyranny’ of family law and divorce courts it, it really undermines the MRA contention that being on the short stick of those courts is something peculiar to men.

Tessa
5 years ago

Jubal:

Huh. Canada had marriage equality for the last ten years, doesn’t Clear Thinker know that?

I know right? And since he apparently didn’t know that, obviously it hasn’t affected his life at all… And 10 years of those “hard truths” that Clear Thinker was spouting hasn’t driven gay men to demand that “real marriage” be left to straight people. So I can say with authority that “Clear Thinker” is filled with a metric fuckton of shit.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Bina: the big difference between the LGBTQIA+ activists and the Men’s Rights “activists” is that the LGBTQIA+ activists are actually, y’know, active. They’ve managed the cognitive leap from “we want X” to “what shall we do about it”, and have realised that one of the sure-fire not-gonna-work strategies is “sit in chatrooms on the internet whining about how nobody’s given us X yet”. So they get out there and do things.

Unlike the MRAs, who appear to believe if they just whine for long enough, people will do what they want in order to shut them up or something.

Yuppers.

Plus there’s the salient fact that queer activists are activists because they’re actually oppressed just for being queer. These guys, much as they may fondly imagine otherwise, are NOT oppressed just for being men. Much less by women…who very often ARE oppressed just for being women!

Orion
5 years ago

The entire MRA spiel is based on the idea that divorce is painful for men because of evil women and femsupremacist judges. If they’ve discovered that divorce still hurts if no women are in the room, they should rethink their entire philosophy. Could it be that love and family are inherently high-stakes endeavors that will end badly for many people, even if there is no villain and no oppressive government?

Also: gay divorce isn’t some kind of gotcha. It’s one of the best things about gay marriage. If they think family court sucks now, they should see what it’s like if you’re not legally related to your kids.

History Nerd
5 years ago

@Alan

Yes, that whole issue has been in the news (so to speak) lately.

katz
katz
5 years ago

I see MRAs are the last people in the universe who are still going “But if a dude marries another dude, who wears the pants?”

DonVoyage
5 years ago

So gay people getting married will make gsy people get divorced and adopting emotionally damaged kids will make them emotionally damaged.

This is almost as bad as all of that “Gay marriage will make God turn into a raccoon and destroy the world in 18 seconds!” stuff from those presidential candidates.

baroncognito
5 years ago

I haven’t done any research on this, but I’m pretty sure that anyone who uses the word “Wampum” is probably a racist of some fashion. I do admit, I could be wrong, and will accept correction if I am.

baroncognito
5 years ago

This is probably because the word wampum brings exactly one image to mind: Bugs Bunny in red face.

1 2 3