Less than 24 hours after an apparent white supremacist murdered nine black churchgoers in cold blood during a prayer meeting in a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina, one prominent MRA is trying to put the blame on feminism, because of a remark the killer reportedly made about rape.
One of the survivors of the church killings reported that, before he began shooting, the killer told those in the prayer group that “you rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.”
Dylann Storm Roof, the accused killer, wore his racism on his sleeve, almost literally: a former classmate tells the press that Roof “made a lot of racist jokes”; his license plate featured the Confederate flag; his Facebook profile picture shows him in a jacket with patches representing the flags of Rhodesia and apartheid-era South Africa.
But Dean Esmay, the second-in-command at A Voice for Men, probably the most influential Men’s Rights site, thinks that Roof’s killing spree may be the result of too much feminism. Earlier today, he posted a link to an article on the shooting to the Men’s Rights subreddit with this headline:
To their credit, the Men’s Rights subreddit regulars voted his comment down; one told him “[n]ot everything is about us, man. This is distasteful.”
Two hours later, apparently undaunted by the criticism and oblivious to irony, Esmay returned to the Men’s Rights subreddit to make another accusation:
No one has declared the shooter to be an MRA. The little we know about Roof right now suggests that he was a garden-variety old-school racist. The paranoid notion of black men raping “our” white women is one of the oldest racist tropes out there; as Jessica Valenti noted on Twitter, Roof’s language is “the language of white supremacist patriarchy.”
The alleged threat to “our women” was used for generations as an excuse to lynch black men and terrorize the black community as a whole. In the case of Roof’s shootings, it’s an even more transparent ruse. As Rebecca Carroll notes in The Guardian, it’s hard to argue that these killings had anything to do with real fears or even paranoid fantasies about the rape of white women when most of the victims were not black men — the symbolic “rapists” in the equation — but black women:
There is something inconsistent with the Charleston shooter’s alleged evocation of the historical myth of black man as beast and rapist of white women, and the fact that he killed mostly black women. Did he only shoot black women because there were no more black men to kill? Because black women birth, care for and love black men? Or because he didn’t see black women as women at all …
The idea that white women’s bodies represent that which is inviolable while black women’s are disposable hasn’t changed enough since it was first articulated by white men; but again, aimed at black men on Wednesday night, it was predominately black women who suffered by their invocation.
We will find out more about Root’s twisted beliefs in days to come. But it is clear already that they had nothing whatsoever to do with feminism.
H/T — r/againstmensrights
EDIT: I’m making this a NO TROLL, no-derailing-with-idiotic-MRA-or-incel-talking-points thread.
Wow, that’s impossibly wrong, it’s wrongness in it’s purest form. During Jim Crow, Black churches were often the only institutions owned and run by black people. Churches were the only reasonably safe places for activists to meet. They also provided the movement with numerous respectable educated leaders who didn’t have to answer to a white employer and were pretty darn good at public speaking.
None of this is new info for people who were awake during their US history courses. I’m mostly commenting because I can’t even think of any place where activists could safely meet other than black churches. Under Jim Crow laws, it was illegal for blacks to assemble in public places and holding meeting in houses is a good way to get houses burnt down. I can’t picture how a black church free Civil Rights movement could have even functioned.
@PussyPowerTantrum:
Re antitheism: in the interests of not diverting the thread any further (apologies all), I’m not going to argue that further.
Re helplessness: Yeah, I agree entirely. It makes me terrified. There’s nothing that one can do except wait for it to be too late; and by then it’s too late and people are insisting that it was just a rogue individual and we can’t draw any conclusions from it.
The only solutions I can think of are long term ones, and that’s useless when it’s happening right now. Western society fetishises powerful individuals who act without restraint by those around them; when we add our perception of violence as a power fantasy and the inherent humiliation of living in a capitalist society, add easy access to firearms and intersect it with a belief in racial superiority, I can’t see that this isn’t going to keep happening.
@mm – they report that they DID do that. Did they do it enough? No, probably not. If they’d done it more would it have made a difference? Probably not.
Are his friends racist? Yeah, probably – at least somewhat. I don’t know and neither do you. I doubt very much that these lads were capable of dealing with the situation. I’m twice their age and I really don’t know what I would have done. I wouldn’t have tolerated language like that, I would have said how utterly fucked-up it was, but mostly I would have simply ceased association with him. That would have made me feel better, but it wouldn’t have helped matters. Go to his parents? Daddy Roof gave Dylann Roof the gun. I think it’s also very hard for people to go to someone’s parents when they’re that age – it stinks of childish tattle-tale – I think that’s a wrong judgement, but I think that’s how a lot of people think. I’m not saying they shouldn’t have tried that. But that it’s hard and it still might not have made a difference. If they’d called him out on social media who’s to say he wouldn’t have acted sooner or killed them? He’s proven himself capable. By the time someone has intent to kill, pointing out that this is no good probably isn’t going to make a difference.
The guys I referred to – my brother’s friends – the ones with the gun-collecting, hating roommate were scared for their own lives. They knew he was a threat to others, but there was no authority who could help them. He hadn’t done anything yet. Without gun registration that can get people’s licenses removed if they start acting in a way that makes them seem dangerous and unstable, there’s nothing they can do. Any ineffective action (e.g. calling the parents who might think the behaviour is A-OK because of denial or whatever) might only serve to enrage. You get to a point where avoidance and staying quiet seems like the best solution (even if it’s not). I live with someone who rages easily and you better believe I don’t point out his racist, sexist nonsense all the time. I know what happens when I do.
Long-time lurker here to post a comment that has nothing to do with the topic.
Ran into this on a Finnish news site earlier today:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33187011
I think I’ve heard here that some MRA or other likewise-minded person thinks that Sweden is one of the countries that are most hostile to men. I wonder how this fits into that. (Not that I know how many other countries offer these services to men.)
I’m an antitheist before I’m an atheist (though both terms apply to me) but I’m not a shit stain. I think theism does more harm than good.
That’s a far-ass cry from being someone who treats religious people like they’re all idiots and thinks they’re a fucking genius because they can make creationists look stupid.
I know a lot of antitheists are fucking miserable and some are definitely dickfaces towards religious people. Being an asshole to religious people isn’t the definition of antitheism though. It’s opposition to theism, which is an idea and a group of practices, not a group of individual people.
While some antitheists will be total pricks who mistreat theists that’s not what defines their antitheism. Lots of antitheists oppose ideas and practices, not the dignity of people who feel otherwise and it doesn’t make them any less antitheist. Just like characterising atheists as a bunch of assholes is inaccurate so is portraying antithesits as they bad type of atheists. There are good and bad antitheists too. The world just isn’t that black and white.
Maybe this place would benefit from going through growing pains with regards to some people making it very unwelcoming to people who don’t dig on faith.
You might be barking up the wrong tree there. Both PPT and I are nonreligious as well. =P
You’re perfectly allowed to not dig on faith. As long as you agree that people shouldn’t be shitheads about it and sure as hell shouldn’t make this tragedy about themselves and their atheism, then we’re all on the same page.
Didn’t take them long I say. Note how nicely he was treated.
The question has to be asked, if a black man had done the same in a white church …would he be alive?
The other queston is: if he was Mulim wouldn’t the whole ‘terrorism’ thing come up and the whole town be in lockdown’ with tanks (etc) running aorund (as per Boston)?
A cynic would ask “how many pats on the back did he get from the white cops”?
This is just US race war, nothing to do with religion.
@Lisa
Yeah, ALL this evidence points to this being racially motivated. For Faux News to still insist that it’s an “attack on Christianity” is just…I can’t even. It’s so wrong.
I don’t know why American right wingers are always going on about “help Christians are being oppressed in this country” when nothing could be further from the truth.
Actually there is such thing as a religious antitheist… sort of. It’s called “misotheist”. People like that believe that there are one or more deities and those being(s) are evil or unworthy of worship. Not surprisingly, this is probably the rarest possible religious position.
Reblogged this on iheariseeilearn.
i know its been a while since i last commented. hello again!
back when my ex and i broke up, he started calling me all the time and threatening suicide. we had been together for a year and a half by that point, so i knew his parents pretty well, and they me. and i told them. he basically said i was crazy and they let it go. a month later, he did attempt (and failed). trying to engage someones support system isnt magic. should i have called the police too? i dont know. he didnt have a gun or anything obvious. i didnt have any documentation.
This whole ‘attack on Christianity’ as @sunnysombrera points out is complete and utter bollocks. There are some people who don’t like Christians, sure, but I’d be willing to bet money that Dylann Roof self-identifies as Christian even if he doesn’t act like one should.
Maybe there’s a point about attacks on predominantly black churches because of their role as social and political organisers?? They’ve certainly been attacked plenty in the past. Heck, part of the Emanuel AME congregation’s proud history is how it stayed extant despite physical and legal attacks. But not because they were Christian, but because they were black Christians who wished to worship in a way that celebrated their own culture and humanity.
Hope this works. Some interesting points about the history of this particular church and why it may have been targeted.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charleston-shooting-black-and-muslim-killers-are-terrorists-and-thugs-why-are-white-shooters-called-mentally-ill-10330714.html
I’m sorry but feminism has nothing to do with what this kid did. If anything, I don’t think he acted alone in this and I personally believe he could be a member of some underground KKK group. They are still around and though many claim they aren’t violent, I’m sure it couldn’t be further from the truth.
What other motives would this kid have? His father or mother are probably members themselves. This kind of racist attitude doesn’t just come from no where, there is always some kind of influence.
Um, WTF does “antitheism” have to do with any of this? Let alone feminism or gender politics? This was an act of racist terrorism. Plain and simple. I’m surprised that you, Mr Futrelle, didn’t notice the vile racist comments on this Chateau Heartist blogpost:
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2015/06/18/predictions-about-dylann-storm-roof/#comment-679940
Makes me sick. The thing about these kinds of racists is that they are beyond help. [rest of comment removed for violent language –DF]
Only tangentially related (re: rape/ rape culture / MRAs only giving lip service to helping male rape victims):
http://m.newser.com/story/208543/rape-capital-of-the-west-to-open-rape-center-for-men.html
Aw, reading the comments.
NINJA’D BY MASSE!
Please don’t knee-jerk blame the parents. I mean, it’s quite likely that this is the case, but even so, sometimes no matter what the parents do, you end up with someone who doesn’t share their values. My brother, for example, is pretty sexist and ableist (though *not* racist or homophobic) despite the fact that our parents definitely did not raise us to be either of those things.
@EJ – In fairness, there are also a bunch of asshole theists.
There are a bunch of asshole people, really.
The fun part is the different flavors they take according to their particular doctrines.
Not-assholes, on the other hand, seem to tend to all be chill in almost the same way.
@Snowberry
Ain’t that the truth. My parents (while not racist – my grandparents fill that quota =P) are LOUDLY homophobic economic right-wingers who didn’t believe in autism until very recently. On the one hand, my sister is just like them, but on the other hand, I’m an autistic, lesbian LGBT+ rights activist who thinks both Australia and the US could really do with a little more socialism.
@Snowberry – That’s very true.
*brings out stand-by example, the husband*
(He’s an awesome person who’s overcome quite a lot, so, yeah.)
If you were to look at my husband’s parents, for example, he’d be a racist, sexist homophobe (and an abusive drug addict), but other life experiences (growing up in largely black subsidized housing; an early girlfriend with lesbian parents; another early girlfriend with professor parents who indulged him in late-into-the-night discussions about music, film, literature, culture, social issues, etc – I really do have many thanks to give to his teenage girlfriends) helped him to grow past his childhood influences.
He’s the first to say that he may have turned out very differently if he hadn’t spent his most formative years in a progressive and relatively diverse University town.
Similarly, if most of the people around you are awful, it can be difficult for even the most well-intentioned parents to make much of a difference.
That’s not to say that it’s ever cut and dry, but 1-to-1 correlations blossoming into causations can be hard to find when talking about individual development.
@berdache: C’mon, man! Mental illness is not defined as “has no empathy.” Everyday people withhold empathy for others, dehumanize others, depersonalize others. Think of wartime, when we define “the enemy” as a monster, and willfully ignore the humanity of “the enemy.” We refuse to think of “the enemy” as a group of human beings that are sons and daughters of mothers and fathers, just like us. People who like certain foods, people who enjoy a sunset as much as we do, people who like a comfortable place to sleep just like us. We relegate them to “the enemy” status, and deny the whole story.
(That’s not to say that there is the reality of a “just war” at times, however, it is a sad and tragic reality)
It is also quite easy for everyday people to find themselves radicalized into some sort of ideology. Take the Red-Pillians. A lot of them were vulnerable to this sort of radicalization because they went through some relationship issues, break-ups, divorces, heartache, etc. Their jangled emotions became that soft spot that allowed them to fall into this sort of belief system. They were told “it’s not your fault, it’s just that women are sluts and ‘hypergamous’ (tl;dr–“gold-diggers”), so they can’t help themselves.” They have their own cheerleading section of hatred. And, before long, they’re adopting ever darker and more detestable beliefs–where “Philosophy of Rape” is the only logical end-point. Everyday guys, becoming more and more radicalized, until they’ve dehumanized women to the point of thinking rape is not only fine, but actually a good thing. Guys who think that the Duluth Wheel of Abuse is actually good advice. It happens all the time.
tl;dr–I’m considered neurotypical, but I hate the stereotyping and stigmatizing of the mentally ill. There’s enough of a burden that these folks bear, without adding the additional social burdens. It’s hard enough, for Pete’s sake, so please knock it off.
*Looks at thread*
Oh shit. We’re discussing religion.
*prepares to flee*
*Looks again*
Oh. That wasn’t too bad.
*sigh of relief*
Another atheist antitheist who thinks people making jokes about the victims’ religion are complete assholes, here. What a lot of shitheads. The liars on Faux News trying to make these shootings about persecution of the religious majority rather than racism are shitheads as well. The two groups should be made to have lunch together everyday for as punishment for being so awful. Though, with American Atheists courting favor with the far right, the asshole atheists would probably love it. They’d do anything to sit at the popular kids’ table and get a taste of the power the religious right weilds, including throw minority atheists under the bus. Organized atheism is a toxic mess. I wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.
Yeah, I hate religious arguments. I shouldn’t have butted into that one, but I was confused as to what EJ meant. ^^; No hard feelings, EJ?
@proxieme:
I find that it’s almost exactly the opposite: asshole feminists, asshole religionists and asshole atheists are almost identical once you strip off the cosmetic features. On the contrary, happy people tend to be really interesting and unique individuals.
Some people like Nintendo games. I don’t. Some people like Jesus. I don’t. Happy Nintendoers and happy Christians tend to be interesting and unique people and you can see each taking their own pleasures in their own ways. Unhappy, miserable, spiteful Nintendoers and Christians tend to be unhappy, miserable and spiteful in the same basic human ways that we’re all unhappy, miserable and spiteful.
@Lea:
It’s a solid point and there are days where I feel like that too. But every time I do, I think: there’s teenagers out there who read Hitchens and Christina and Dennett, and who agree with it, and who go out seeking others like them. If that person they find is me, I can influence them in a positive way. If the person they find is a Sam Harris fanboy, then that becomes harder. That’s why I stick in the movement.
You’ve chosen to leave. I don’t blame you. We both know what the movement is like.
@M:
You are always welcome to ask me to tell you about stuff. I like spreading knowledge.
No hard feelings, unless you bastards beat us in the rugby, in which case it is of course war.