Less than 24 hours after an apparent white supremacist murdered nine black churchgoers in cold blood during a prayer meeting in a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina, one prominent MRA is trying to put the blame on feminism, because of a remark the killer reportedly made about rape.
One of the survivors of the church killings reported that, before he began shooting, the killer told those in the prayer group that “you rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go.”
Dylann Storm Roof, the accused killer, wore his racism on his sleeve, almost literally: a former classmate tells the press that Roof “made a lot of racist jokes”; his license plate featured the Confederate flag; his Facebook profile picture shows him in a jacket with patches representing the flags of Rhodesia and apartheid-era South Africa.
But Dean Esmay, the second-in-command at A Voice for Men, probably the most influential Men’s Rights site, thinks that Roof’s killing spree may be the result of too much feminism. Earlier today, he posted a link to an article on the shooting to the Men’s Rights subreddit with this headline:
To their credit, the Men’s Rights subreddit regulars voted his comment down; one told him “[n]ot everything is about us, man. This is distasteful.”
Two hours later, apparently undaunted by the criticism and oblivious to irony, Esmay returned to the Men’s Rights subreddit to make another accusation:
No one has declared the shooter to be an MRA. The little we know about Roof right now suggests that he was a garden-variety old-school racist. The paranoid notion of black men raping “our” white women is one of the oldest racist tropes out there; as Jessica Valenti noted on Twitter, Roof’s language is “the language of white supremacist patriarchy.”
The alleged threat to “our women” was used for generations as an excuse to lynch black men and terrorize the black community as a whole. In the case of Roof’s shootings, it’s an even more transparent ruse. As Rebecca Carroll notes in The Guardian, it’s hard to argue that these killings had anything to do with real fears or even paranoid fantasies about the rape of white women when most of the victims were not black men — the symbolic “rapists” in the equation — but black women:
There is something inconsistent with the Charleston shooter’s alleged evocation of the historical myth of black man as beast and rapist of white women, and the fact that he killed mostly black women. Did he only shoot black women because there were no more black men to kill? Because black women birth, care for and love black men? Or because he didn’t see black women as women at all …
The idea that white women’s bodies represent that which is inviolable while black women’s are disposable hasn’t changed enough since it was first articulated by white men; but again, aimed at black men on Wednesday night, it was predominately black women who suffered by their invocation.
We will find out more about Root’s twisted beliefs in days to come. But it is clear already that they had nothing whatsoever to do with feminism.
H/T — r/againstmensrights
EDIT: I’m making this a NO TROLL, no-derailing-with-idiotic-MRA-or-incel-talking-points thread.
I’m banning Divided Line and making this a no-troll/no-using-Emmett-Till-to-make-an-offensive-dig-at-feminism-while-people-here-are-trying-to-discuss-the-racist-murder-of-9-people thread
Troll says ‘I’m bored with this’ it always means ‘You guys are saying things I don’t know how to address but I won’t consider the idea that I might be wrong!’
@proxieme
So true. I feel like this is a result of them only listening to the same anti-feminist idiots until confirmation bias took over their sense of logic.
@proxieme:
Does that mean he was hitting on us?
…
@ Moocow
You raise some interesting points; and they’re ones that resonate with me for various reasons.
Firstly I should say I don’t see anything wrong with stepping in (physically) to help out a woman *if she wants/needs that help*. On the rare occasions I’ve had to use non-consensual violence it’s been in those circumstances.
I think this does become a problem though if men assume women are just hapless creatures incapable of sorting anything for themselves. I’m not a big fan of the “Step aside ladies; let me handle this” attitude; whether that’s in the physical sense or generally. That’s one of the reasons I identify as, at best, a pro-feminist rather than a feminist.
As men we have to accept that part of our privilege is that *on average* we may be more physically capable of that sort of thing than women. Of course there’s also the fact that other men may ‘respect’ a man’s intervention where a woman standing up for herself or another woman just risks further abuse/violence. The classic example of having to pretend to be a woman’s boyfriend to stop someone hitting on her demonstrates that. The wannabe Lethario won’t accept a woman has agency or the right to say ‘no’ but will respect another man’s ‘ownership’ (“Sorry mate, didn’t know she was taken”).
The best thing we can do as men is to try to help create an environment where women don’t need our help; hence my support for the goals of the people on this site and feminists generally.
In the interim I do my bit in teaching women’s self defence. Of course that’s an area that brings up loads of issues (empowerment v victim blaming; diversion as crime prevention etc.) but I can live with that.
One of the things I like about feminism is that it promotes the idea that people can be who they want to be; rather than have to conform to traditional stereotypes. A woman should be allowed to pursue traditionally male pursuits without it being assumed she’s a lesbian (not that there’s anything wrong with being a lesbian of course) and a man should be allowed to express his feelings with out some homophobic innuendo (again with the same proviso). In my experience people don’t fall into such easily compartmentalised categories anyway.
As it happened I probably do fall into a lot of the old ‘masculine’ type behaviour and one of my policies is “Be the guy a woman in danger can run to, not from”. I appreciate that that could be an issue for some, but I’m not coming from a place where I think women are incapable of looking after themselves; I know from experience that they can.
I have the privilege though where I can live my blokey lifestyle and still blub at films (seems I get a pass for that for various reasons). Feminism aims for a world where everyone gets that freedom. That’s the irony of the MRA position; it’s the feminists that are actually trying to address all the issues they profess to care about.
@Alan
I definitely see your point. I think the correct policy is ‘everyone has a right to be helped or sheltered or rescued, regardless of gender’. It is unfortunate that women face dangers that men don’t ever worry about. This does mean there will be more scenarios where a woman needs help than when a man needs help but as long as your policy remains, “help anyone in need” then I don’t see a problem.
What is a problem is when assholes like Divided Line see all women as “the trembling women folk” (literally those are his words) as opposed to human beings. And of course, he needs to save women so they can repay him with sex, because let’s be serious, that’s his end goal. The act of a man helping a woman is not inherently sexist (although in movies and video games it is because it’s an overused trope) and it certainly shouldn’t be the basis for one’s gender identity.
It really is… Feminism has done more for men than MRAs ever have. And it’s so sad to see guys have legitimate grieviences as a result of patriarchy…. and somehow just blame women/feminism for those things. That’s the part I never understand!
I’ve actually got a story to share on the topic of protecting others (try to imagine the responses I would get if I posted this on a Red Pill or MRA site). A few months ago, I was having a great time chatting with a woman I met at a party. Although my initial flirtations were not reciprocated, we chatted for a long time and I really enjoyed connecting with her. As we left with my friends, this belligerent guy came up to her and tapped her on the shoulder. She ignored him, and he started saying “Hey, I’m trying to talk to you!”. She did her best to ignore him, and I said “No, we’re not interested”.*
He walks away and SMASHES a bottle. This is also where her stop is and I was just scared and really worried about her**. She was about to leave but I asked “Can I go with you until you get on that train? I just want to make sure you’re safe”. She was cool with it and we walked together until the train at which point we parted ways.
I don’t even know what I would have done had there been an actual confrontation, but I felt compelled to be there as she got to the train.
*- I spoke up because I’m well aware that sexist creepers will not listen to women but will often listen to another man.
**- In the past I wouldn’t have been as worried for her because I was blissfully ignorant of the very real dangers that women face.
“Obviously Im not trolling, Im debating with you.” When multiple people have repeatedly asked you to stop posting disgusting crap, and you keep talking AT them until you get banned, that isnt a “debate”. A debate or conversation happens with enthusiastic Consent from the other person. Sorry, Just needed to get that off my chest. Thank you David for modding as always.
PS: sad that someone considers hugging after a tragedy to be a bad thing.
I thought that got called off cause the woman just wanted his corpse so she could put it on display and charge people money or something like that. Did the marriage go through after all?
White women didnt ask white men to make them tools against black men. Women didnt choose to be treated like property by men.
I know from prior research that the most at risk group of people when it comes to sexual assault in the US is Native women and that the majority of their attackers are white men, and I know that most white women are raped by white men, and I know that white men enslaved black women and raped them. It seems to me like black women have more to fear from white men than white women should fear black men.
I dont know what motivated the killer to use that trope, but when he did, he was shooting up a room full of older women.
Thanks, David. Anyone who would utter the following, decrying some pretty mild criticism directed at his derailing white penis feelings, in a thread about 9 black people actually being murdered by a white supremacist has earned a thorough banning.
@ Moocow
That’s the thing, how many guys actually care or, more importantly, do something about the male suicide rate, or prison rape, or perceived injustices in the family court system? None that I know of, and I have some reasonably activist mates.
The only people I know who are involved in trying to redress these issues are women with an interest in social justice generally. Yup, that’s right guys, it’s the dreaded ‘social justice warriors’ who are the real men’s rights advocates.
Good for you. Shame we do have to make those sorts of offers but it’s nice that people are willing to; and without expecting anything in return.
Yeah, it’s a sad state of affairs that “Hey bro, stop cock-blocking!” might actually have been the one thing that would have made him back off.
Hmm, saying “defend against a broken bottle in the same way as you would defend against a knife but also a stick” probably doesn’t help much does it?
Well, there’s a reason the “Men fear….Women fear….” quote is a truism
Oops, you’re right. Per Wikipedia they had a marriage license but it expired back in February. There are conflicting stories about why the wedding didn’t take place. I started to do more research, but then I saw the part about how his fiancee is 26 and has been visiting him in prison for 9 years, and now I’m too creeped-out to think about it anymore.
Of course, as admitting they’re just parroting talking points would mean they aren’t the most distinctive human being on the planet.
It’s why I think individuality, as a concept, is heavily abused. Rather than as a way to accept the personal decisions and lifestyle of another person, that they have a right to their identity as much as our own, and not subjecting them to arbitrarily established social standards – it’s become a way in which self-absorbed and -obsessed people assuage their massive-yet-fragile egos.
I mean, why else do you see all these white cis-hetero guys turn issues like this into how they “feel”? They can’t put that aside for incidents like the one in Charleston – because everything needs to connect to them in some way.
Just saying, as a 5″3′, 100 pound woman, I have on occasion needed the assistance of someone taller and more muscly than me. I`m very grateful to people like Moocow and Alan who can step in to help without making it about ‘women being weak and needing men’ and without expecting a favor in return.
@Dividing Line
I know David banned you for this but I just want to add that you attempted to strip Emmett Till’s murder of it’s historical context. You wanted to remove race from a discussion about a 1955 lynching of African American teenager in Mississippi in order to complain about your dating struggles. You wanted to do this in a thread about a white supremacist slaughtering people in a prominent activist black church.
You are perhaps the most self-absorbed troll I’ve ever seen here, which is quite an achievement. You view the entire world in terms of your frustrated personal desires to the point that all women are to blame for your problems, that homelessness and male suicide only function as a symbol for your suffering, and that America’s monstrous economic inequality only matters because it hurts your dating prospects.
You’re a narcissistic man child incapable of recognizing the needs and worth of anyone other than yourself. You voice concerns for men you believe are exactly like you because it creates the illusion that you aren’t supremely self-obsessed.
You are a complete asshole.
@ apeculiarpersonage
I lost a wisdom tooth to a 5’3″ woman; so don’t underestimate what you’re capable of!
This lass….
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11783191.York_mum_heading_to_India_to_teach_self_defence_to_victims_of_abuse_and_trafficking/
She also broke my nose on another occasion (she’s quite nice really)
@Alan . . . now I’m looking up various self defense classes in my area. 🙂
NicknameNick,
It really does seem to be white cishet men with tired ass MRA, libertarian or evo psych talking points that always claim to be an individual the most. It’s like they think saying they’re unique is enough to make it so and enough that their talking points are unassailable.
It seems we’ve had a rash of them lately.
I think you’re right about it being an ego thing. But I also think it’s a way of denying that certain demographics are marginalized. I think now that people have caught on to “I’m an egalitarian” being code for opposition to social justice, they have to try a new tack.
People sign up to self defence lessons for all sorts of reasons: because something happened to them previously, because they’re concerned to ensure that nothing happens to them in future, to get fit etc. but the best reason is because it’s fun!
You’ll love it.
@Alan
I typically don’t respond to MRA trolls who parrot mushy statistics about male homelessness because at this point I can’t deal with them using homelessness to bash feminism WHEN NONE OF THESE ASSHOLES KNOW A GOD DAMN SINGLE THING ABOUT HOMELESSNESS.
There are tons of resources if they want to learn about the subject. There are plenty of organizations if they want to volunteer, donate or help raise awareness.
Of course, they don’t actually give a shit about homelessness, so they don’t do anything.
It’s really fucking annoying. I know they do a wide variety of annoying shit, but their homelessness gotcha particularly pisses me off. Non-MRA “big daddy government”-bashing libertarians generally don’t care about the homeless either, but at least they aren’t constantly bringing it up only in order to blame it on chivalry, the Gynocracy or male disposability.
Here’s the thing: just because someone was the victim of injustice doesn’t mean they were perfect. Yes, what Emmett Till was doing was, in fact, street harassment. But that doesn’t justify his murder. And, in fact, the men who lynched Till were displaying patriarchal attitudes as well as racist ones — they were protecting “their” women, i.e., treating women as property.
To put it in perspective, consider the more recent civil rights case of Michael Brown. I think everyone would agree that Brown’s robbery of a convenience store — the thing that triggered the whole mess — was wrong and illegal. But recognizing that he’d done something wrong doesn’t mean the police were justified in killing him. Just because he wasn’t a saint doesn’t mean he can’t be a martyr.
So, yes, someone should’ve sat Emmett Till down and given him a lecture on the proper respect for women, regardless of race. No feminist would say that the Klan was justified in killing him, though.
I came back and the other stuff seems over. So I’m gonna comment. Just not about the other thing.
I can tell you of a 2 times recently I was relieved to hear men speaking up against misogyny. (That’s not speaking up for women. That’s speaking up for what’s right and everybody should do it.)
Both happened a couple Fridays ago at a coffee shop.
1. I walked in the door and a poet was slamming down a poem about women killed by men for being women. He finished by pointing out how black men get stopped and frisked for weed, but we can’t seem to do anything about the rapists and abusers killing women. I clapped so hard for that guy. That guy I will be going out to hear again tonight.
2. I stepped outside and overheard a guy back in the dark complain to his friends that there were too many feeeemales in atendence and his gf was going to get suspicious. Another guy told him (clearly irritated) it wasn’t like they could keep women away. (They were sitting at a table of mixed gendered people.) The first guy said, (as if he thought he was the funniest comedian ever) “You could if you had a gun!” The second dude’s voice sounded like he was holding back a few thousand “FUCK YOU”s He said something along the lines of, “It’s not their fault your gf can’t trust you. You’re a cheating asshole”.
Until he said something, I was regretting going out that night, poem or no. I’d rather he’d have said something about the gun comment, especially considering the poem that had just finished inside (They hadn’t been in to hear it. I wish they had.) but I know how he felt. It caught him off guard. He was stunned. He sounded slightly strangled in the dark and I know how I feel when I sound like that. Your throat tries to close up on you. It feels like your brain is on fire and making words come out of your mouth instead of screaming noises is hard. He did good. If he’d have stayed silent every woman on the terrace and the sexist shithead would have assumed he agreed with the sexist shithead. Anything at all was better than saying nothing.
Those guys have no idea how much their voices meant to me.
zblongladder,
I think it turned out that Mike had not stolen anything and that the stop had nothing to do with anything other than walking while black.