The news out of Charleston is horrifying: 9 people have been shot and killed at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina, including state senator Clementa Pinckney, the pastor at the church. As I write this, police are still looking for the suspected shooter, described as “a clean-shaven white male about 21-years-old with sandy blond hair.”
It seems rather likely that the shooting was a racist hate crime.
Please use this thread to discuss the news as well as to post any updates or additional information you find.
I know some commenters here have also been discussing another horrifying story in the news: On Tuesday, as NJ.com reports, “a recently divorced … police officer shot and killed his former wife in broad daylight … in front of their daughter on an Asbury Park [New Jersey] street, authorities said.” Please use this thread to discuss this story as well.
Chris Hayes did a short interview with gov. Nikki Haley and he asked her about that confederate flag. Her silly answer was something along the lines of she had spoken to a lot of CEOs looking to relocate to SC and none of *them* saw fit to complain about it. Not a word about the law concerning the flag.
CEOs. Overwhelmingly privileged rich white dudes. Who didn’t specifically complain about the confederate flag.
You don’t say?
O.o
@the other EJ
Yep. They have a light on it. Turns out, from further research, that it is impossible to lower it. It is attached to the top of the flagpole and can’t be lowered. You have to climb up there with a ladder and take it all the way down to get it down.
I’m not saying this excuses anything. It ought to be taken down, permanently, and it’s a slap in the face to black Americans that it is still flying even today. And I’m not saying that respect for the law is so sacred that nobody should defy it and go take it down illegally. I would applaud anyone who decided that civil disobedience in this case is warranted.
What I am saying is that it’s not realistic to expect the state governor to order that kind of civil disobedience. The governor’s office is just not an appropriate place from which to declare that we shouldn’t obey certain laws. The governor absolutely should do everything in her power to get the law changed, but ultimately the chief executive of any government is required to uphold the law, even bad ones, and therefore circumventing bad laws has to be done in a quiet and circumspect way.
How telling. The true constituents of the GOP are the super wealthy/big business. No one else.
Scribbles,
You attempt at trolling is inappropriate. This isn’t the time or place. The gotcha you wanted isn’t here.
EJ,
We are not supposed to leave the flag out in the rain or up at night unless lit by a spotlight. We’re also not supposed to fly a tattered flag, but it’s done all the time.
The 4th is near and once again I will not be able to take part in the cheering and flag waving. I doubt I ever will again. I am, however considering flying the flag upside down. It means someone is in dire distress and we are.
I’m with Monae. Burn it. It’s just a piece of cloth, but what it stands for needs to burn. I think some civil disobedience is called for.
I also think the Faux News propaganda machine needs to be disallowed from calling what it produces “news”. It isn’t.
Not sure if this has been linked to yet, but news is reporting that the Dept. of Justice is going to investigate the shooting as an act of domestic terrorism.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/the-us-justice-department-will-investigate-the-charleston-shooting-as-an-act-of-domestic-terrorism-10333270.html
If this is how these people build their flagpoles, small wonder they lost the Civil War.
@the other EJ
I’m certain to a reasonable degree that this particular flagpole is made that way specifically to deter the kind of civil disobedience that would be called for in this circumstance. You literally can’t get the flag down without a ladder and a bolt cutter, which would draw a ton of attention even at night.
You know, living in England and everything I don’t often get a chance to say this, but fuck the confederacy. I wrote them a nice letter and everything, and now I find out that they specifically thought of that and tied their hands to prevent themselves from acting morally.
How tall is the flagpole? One of us must be a reasonable archer with a fire arrow.
Governor has said the Confederate flag “needs to be addressed” after the shooting. That’s a pretty lukewarm response, but better than nothing I guess.
https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/611963405176598529
I don’t know. Is this actually better than nothing?
From the Reuter’s website.
I reckon I’ll withhold judgement until I see more of what she said, but “I think the state will start talking about it again” is just a hopeful observation, not a statement of leadership or a statement of intent to begin and sustain that conversation.
When was the last time this happened?
I agree it should not be ignored
If the shooting represents a bigger issue, then isn’t the ‘much bigger issue’ the same as the largest incident of a particular crime?
““We have victims — nine of them. But we also have victims on the other side,” said Charleston County Magistrate James (Skip) Gosnell Jr. as he opened the hearing.”
From: http://nydn.us/1Bt4jtv
Funny how he counts the family of the shooter as victims, but not the family of the murdered in his tally. Fucking *sigh*
Regarding the Charleston shooter, I read this exchange on another website:
This in response to the fact that photos from his facebook page showing him with Rhodesian and apartheid-era South African symbols. It’s a pretty good guess that somebody (not just society in general) was “educating” and encouraging him in his hatred.
Re: Confederate flag
“Any dipshit that flies a confederate flag is not American because they don’t believe in the USA.” That’s what I want to say to every fuckwit who proudly brandishes that stupid ass flag. “That flag is NOT the United States, that flag is the ANTITHESIS of the United States.
“Anyone who flies that flag is NOT a true American.
“Anyone who flies that flag does NOT hold true American values.
“Anyone who flies that flag does NOT want to live in America and are NOT a patriot.”
I want to say all these fucking things because I know those assholes would get so riled up by the truth. They’re glorifying a very short time in the past where they were NOT a part of the United States, but they’re the SAME ASSHOLES who act so goddamn patriotic it’s sickening.
“You can’t be a true United States patriot and salute the confederate flag.”
Tell that to EVERY asshole with a confederate flag. All the time. Everywhere. Put it into forum signatures, let it be known that they are fucking sure as hell not what America is.
It’s RED, white and blue, not ORANGE, white and blue.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/freedom.gif
@Grumpy
Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if they find KKK pamphlets on the coffee table of his house, quite frankly, or a copy of Mein Kampf, or the original reels of The Birth of a Nation, or an urn filled with the ashes of a dozen burned copies of To Kill a Mockingbird.
People will always look for things they want to learn about. A quick google search about white supremacy will probably net you something about apartheid, and there’s websites all over you can order shit from. I wouldn’t be surprised if the patches on his coat came from a website ran by some neonazis.
@Pandapol: The key thing, though, is Rhodesia. You hardly ever hear about it nowadays, but it was a big thing in the news for people my age and a little older. It seems to me that he had to have contact with someone or some group oi some website that had a thing about Rhodesia specifically.
This sort of thing requires two elements:
(1) an angry (usually white, often young) man who is looking for someone to vent his rage on
(2) and a source to tell him who to blame for his plight. I know it’s there in the culture, but he could have just as easily ended up at PUAHate and shot up a sorority like Eliot Rodger, or at a muslim-hater site and shot up a Sikh temple thinking they were muslims like Wade Michael Page, or at a black-helicopter site and shot up a Congressperson’s rally like Jared Loughner, or an anti-secular-humanist/liberal site and shot up a Unitarian meetinghouse like Jim David Adkisson, or a holocaust denial/white supremacist site and shot up the Holocaust Museum like James W. von Brunn. Of course he was from South Carolina, where racism is in the water and the flag of slavery flies at the state capitol. But the Rhodesia reference tends to argue for a specific source.
Ever since they published some information about the shooter, I’ve been convinced he was indoctrinated by some specific group or site. Perhaps Stormfront, although there are many other possibilities.
I wonder if it could be the League of the South? The LoS has a lot of political influence and tries to present a bland face to the media, but they aren’t a bunch of cheerful Civil War reinactors. (They recently thanked John Wilkes Booth for his “service to the South.”) I’m pretty sure Rhodesia has come up in their rantings.
I haven’t read anything to confirm this, but I won’t apologize for speculating the LoS could have influenced Roof. Anything that draws attention to their real agenda is fine by me.
You’re right. It hadn’t occurred to me, but you’d expect the people most familiar with the idea of Rhodesia would be from Commonwealth countries rather than the US. Even then, I doubt many citizens of Roof’s age in Commonwealth countries could tell you much, if anything, about Rhodesia.
This is something you have to look for.
the shooters family are not victims. Hurting? I should hope so. I would be furiouslt angry and sad and feel guilty. but that wouldnt make me a victim, because I wasnt fucking shot.
I did think that was odd too. To be honest, I didn’t imagine anyone outside Southern Africa would know anything about Rhodesia except us Brits.
Maybe though in white supremacist circles UDI represents the white man’s struggle against the barbaric hordes?
Alan,
That is exactly what it represents to many of them.
reposting just in case ppl didnt see this:
http://motheremanuelhopefund.com
Folks please consider donating: “This city’s fund will provide direct financial support for the funeral and burial expenses of the nine victims of the senseless tragedy. Any funds remaining after the funeral and burial expenses are paid will be donated directly to the Emanuel AME Church for use as determined by its governance board.”
No amount of money can bring back a loved one.
but we can show love in the face of hate at least.
@ Mari
Those white supremacists do like to be on the wrong side of history don’t they?
But, Alan, if the UK and the US hadn’t handed Rhodesia over to those black Communists, it would be a paradise today! It wasn’t the fault of the poor racists who were just trying to live their lives and properly oppress the lesser people. They were betrayed.
Which is why groups like LoS want to secede from the Union. Yeah, they think that will work out better for them the second time around. And what’s really scary is that some pretty prominent politicians court them and speak at their conferences.
In slightly better news, an Alabama police department is finally getting rid of two members who joined LoS. The department initially claimed it had no power to forbid its officers to join “civic organizations.” I can’t think of many civic organizations whose purpose is to plot treason.
Tywanza Sanders was so fucking brave.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/19/hero-charleston-church-shooting-mother-shielding-others?CMP=share_btn_fb
The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry. ~ Ernest Hemingway
Hi folks. It’s been a long time since I’ve commented on here, but I heard about this not long after it happened.
My god…..this is just plain horrifying, that a person this young could get sucked into such extreme hatred, and, even worse, act on that hatred by murdering nine completely innocent people in cold blood, simply because of their background. It’s just tragic, to say the least.
R.I.P. to all the victims of this senseless, horrific act. =(