Over on Boing Boing, Mark Frauenfelder has posted the excerpt below from A Love That Multiplies: An Up-Close View of How They Make It Work by Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar — yes, those Duggars — explaining how women “defraud” men when they dress in a way that men find exciting (in their pants).
This, sadly, is not exactly an original or even unusual notion in reactionary religious circles.
Indeed, a couple of years back, I found a rather scary post on a radically pro-patriarchal site called the CoAlpha Brotherhood in which one young man calling himself Drealm lamented that, as a man living “in a university town that’s overrun with young girls” he was literally “forced to stare at hundreds if not thousands of women a day, all of whom bring sluttiness to all new pinnacle”
Like the Duggars, Drealm thought that “a woman dressing provocatively and leaving a man in an unfinished state of excitement … is an assault on men’s sexuality.”
When women dress like this, he argued, he and other men couldn’t help but want to rape them.
[T]he only thing I want to do to a slut is rape them. … dressing like sluts brings out murders, rapists and sadists in men. … A society based on sluts, might as well be a pro-rapist society.
Reading back over this now, it’s all a bit too reminiscent of the thinking of Elliot Rodger. Indeed, after Rodger went on his misogyny-driven murder spree, one CoAlpha Forum member wrote that Rodger “would have been a true hero” had he only killed more sorority women; the site now adorns its front page with an homage to Rodger.
But it isn’t just those on the margins of the manosphere who think this way. In The Myth of Male Power, the 1993 book that essentially provided the ideological blueprint for the Men’s Rights movement today, Warren Farrell famously wrote of the “miniskirt power” secretaries allegedly had over their male bosses.
Farrell is a couple of decades older now, and apparently it takes more than a miniskirt to render him powerless these days. And by “more than a miniskirt” I mean less. As in no clothing at all. When Farrell put out a new eBook edition of The Myth of Male Power last year, he had his publisher put a rear-view shot of a nude woman on the cover, “to illustrate,” as he explained in an appearance on Reddit,
that the heterosexual man’s attraction to the naked body of a beautiful woman takes the power out of our upper brain and transports it into our lower brain
This sort of logic, like that of the Duggars and of “Drealm” from the CoAlpha Brotherhood, also conveniently takes the blame for (heterosexual) male behavior and transports it into the bodies of women. With the Duggars, we’ve seen exactly where this sort of logic can lead.
Farrell, much like the Duggars and the excerable “Drealm,” also seems to think that women commit a kind of fraud against men when they “stir up sensual desires” that they don’t intend to fulfill. As Farrell wrote in The Myth of Male Power, when a man pays good money to take a woman out, and she doesn’t repay him, as it were, with sex, she is in his estimation committing a kind of “date fraud” or “date robbery.”
Or even a sort of date rape. Farrell wrote that
dating can feel to a man like robbery by social custom – the social custom of him taking money out of his pocket, giving it to her, and calling it a date. … Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male version of date rape.
Emphasis mine, because holy fuck.
This is what happens when your ideology makes women responsible for (heterosexual) men’s desires. Hell, it’s what happens when you make anyone responsible for the desires of someone else, regardless of gender or sexual orientation.
Your pants feelings are your responsibility. Not anyone else’s. Full stop.
This sort of thing:
http://www.thevintageknittinglady.co.uk/images/23aug11/patonsR14-2a.jpg
Alan, that is a sweater vest in the US
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Do you think we live in an environment where it would be possible for men to talk publicly about their feelings regarding women’s clothing, if their ‘pants feels’ were bothering them?
@Mark you’ve already said you have no issues with the standards of dress where you live, so what’s the point?
A not-comprehensive list of questions Mark hasn’t give a straight answer to yet:
Are you claiming that “biological” means “uncontrollable,” and/or that male sexuality has an uncontrollably-rapey part to it?
Are you saying that biology makes all men rapists?
Are you saying that rape is sexuality? If so, why despite how common rape is, why are the majority of men not actually rapists?
Do you really think women (the ones who find men attractive anyway) don’t experience strong feeling of sexual desire when they see a hot guy?
what’s an example of women’s clothing that would prevent extreme feelings of lust in men?
But what are you trying to say? That this is okay, or normal (ie: biological)? You are defending this, correct? You are saying that these men who do think like this shouldn’t change, but that all of society and all women (including children) should accommodate them (by changing their dress, actions, activities, etc) and then take the blame if they don’t do so ‘sufficiently’ (ie: getting raped anyway), correct? If you aren’t saying that, please clarify your point.
So whose sensitivities should we all give thought to? And why do those people’s sensitivities get special treatment above the sensitivities of people who feel the exact opposite?
Now, would you mind explaining to me why you came to this topic in particular to talk about how ‘women need to dress modest!’, if you think that what women are wearing is never grounds for sexual assault?
Why are you defending these fuckfaces, Mark, if you actually disagree with them?
So women shouldnt wear a bikini then? Or a sexy dress at a party?
Are the feeling of rapists extreme and abnormal Mark or are they natural to every man and sex from women is a necessity men need to survive? Which is it to be?
Why should I be uncomfortable in Victorian style clothing to appease someone who has a hang up about cleavage or arms? Why should I get heat stroke? Can’t the dude just deal with his hang up? Or go live on a religious compound?
You want a “conservative” dress code, mandated by law, for all citizens? Really? Who gets to decide what is acceptable in this dress code? What are the penalties for violating it? Are you seriously advocating fines and jail time for someone wearing short shorts? Really?
As for you, Mark, here’s how you can stop what you believe are misunderstandings. Three step process, simple.
1. Define what you mean by “uncomfortable.” Who is uncomfortable, how uncomfortable are they, what are they specifically uncomfortable about? What is the discomfort that you are trying to prevent?
2. Define what you think should be at the limit of female and male dress. Show an example, and explain what that clothing prevents in terms of causes of discomfort listed at 1.
3. Explain why the flying fuck you thought it’d be a great idea to use rapists and men who are describe how they want to rape as a good framing for this conversation. What do those people, who you have labeled as unreasonable, have to do with your list at 1? If nothing, then who specifically in this OP were you trying to use as framing and how are they related to 1? If no-one, then explain why this particular post, which contains men arguing that women should be dressing less like sluts, was a great opportunity for you to describe your own feelings on how women should be dressing a certain way, and why you thought that nobody would draw a comparison between your argument and the argument in the op.
Tell me again why I should care about the feelings of a rapist who can’t handle women wearing shorts and tank tops?
What do you mean by “uncomfortable?” What specifically are you worried about preventing? The statement “people should avoid wearing clothing that makes other people uncomfortable” as a wide range of interpretations, some of which everyone here would agree with and others where everyone here would vehemently disagree. What degree of uncomfortableness do you feel necessitates other people accommodate? What specifically on the topic of clothing are you talking about when you say “makes people uncomfortable?” What specific pieces of clothing do you think are the “problem” and what pieces are the “solution?”
Is it really too much trouble to ask men to deal with their feelings (bonerfeels or otherwise) when women are wearing or not wearing clothes?
Why should it be the responsibility of women (as individuals) to cater to the impossible, contradictory demands of men (as a monolithic whole) when it comes to what they wear, rather than the responsibility of men to deal with their feelings in a way that doesn’t involve raping, assaulting, or harassing a woman?
Why in the world should it make you feel uncomfortable to be sexually attracted to someone? Furthermore, why should it make you want to rape someone? Why should it do more than make you somewhat intersted in having consensual sex with them, and why should it make you angry if you can’t have sex with them unless you feel entitled to that person’s body?
If there’s no problem with how people are dressed now, why doesn’t that put the onus on guys like the OP to just suck it up if they’re offended by people’s garments? Why must everyone tiptoe around his sensitivities when they’re usually appropriately dressed?
So, why do we need to cater to people like the guy in the OP, or anybody who doesn’t want to have to deal with their feelings? Why does their admittedly unreasonable need to never feel an inconvenient urge or emotion trump other people’s need to just get on with life?
So how about you explain what it is that’s so personally distracting to you that makes you think you have a right to dictate the clothes of others. Or, better yet, explain why previous commenters’ points about men in suits being sexy and whether they’d also be affected by this dress code are going unanswered.
We’re also trying to pin you down on whether men should feel obligated to moderate their dress lest they inspire inappropriate desires in someone else.
Some white people are racist and are uncomfortable seeing people of color. Should POC consider the sensitivities of racists and avoid white neighborhoods? If no, why is that different from misogynist men dictating what women do for their personal comfort?
What. Do. You. Want?
——
May I propose a troll challenge for Mark to answer at least, say, 5 of these before he can say anything else? Is that allowed?
U.S. version of tank top (at least in my part of the U.S.)
http://www.jiyyaintl.com/adminpanel/limg/urban-classics-ladies-tanktop-top-grey-9320_l1.jpg
Some variations occur in back design and width of straps.
@Mark, do you understand and agree that my personal lady-feelings about men’s clothing have absolutely no bearing, nor should they, on what you choose to wear today? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.
The specifics of the dress code for you, Mark, should be a lead box entirely encasing your head because anything that dense has to have some kind of radioactive half life.
And for everyone else there should not be a dress code because we are mature adults who can make decisions about our own bodies and clothing, thanks.
Dang, that was a big tank top.
@ Ghilie and Flying Mouse
Ah, thank you. That all makes more sense now. Ironically it’s the second one that we’d probably call a ‘vest top’ over here.
“Two nations divided by a common language” indeed 🙂
ETA: @Mark, do you understand and agree that my personal lady-feelings about men’s clothing and bodies have absolutely no bearing, nor should they, on what you choose to wear today? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.
@Tracy
No.
So why isn’t it the same with genders reversed?
Everyone remember, by Mark’s own admission, he should be in jail right now for having this conversation.
But for some reason, when he’s the one making people uncomfortable, it can all get worked out on a person-to-person basis. It’s only when women do something that makes him uncomfortable that we suddenly need national legislation.
Are you claiming that “biological” means “uncontrollable,” and/or that male sexuality has an uncontrollably-rapey part to it?
No
Are you saying that biology makes all men rapists?
No
Are you saying that rape is sexuality? If so, why despite how common rape is, why are the majority of men not actually rapists?
No.
Do you really think women (the ones who find men attractive anyway) don’t experience strong feeling of sexual desire when they see a hot guy?
No, but my impression is that men probably experience stronger feelings.
It is the same, Alan. I’m saying I don’t agree with her that her feelings have no bearing on what I should wear.
@Mark, you are under that impression because why? Your reasoning for thinking men have stronger sexual feelings is what?
Ah gotcha, my bad.
OK, so what should be the dress code for men then?
I used to be like you, Mark. I used to say things like “Man, I can’t wait for longer shorts to be fashionable because I am so tired of looking at other people’s legs!” I used to say, “Leggings are not pants!” I felt uncomfortable because of other people’s dress because I felt inadequate. Because I was raised in a toxic culture that says a woman’s value is based on her beauty and there is only one way to be beautiful.
I no longer say those things, because instead of knee-jerk supporting toxic culture, I learned–from this blog and from others like it–that the problem wasn’t with the shorts or the leggings. The problem wasn’t with women who conform or don’t conform to the standards. The problem was the toxicity of the culture that we swim in.
The solution to toxic culture is to change the culture, not conform to it. Mark, you have acknowledged that the culture is toxic. But then you advocate conforming to the culture via dress codes, not dismantling the culture via education. Why is that?
Your impression is wrong. The things that make strength of sexual desire vary from person to person do not include gender. It is a separate spectrum (on which asexual is one end).
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Oh good! Then I propose forbidding men from wearing pants that are too shapeless in the rear. Not being able to decide from afar (heh) whether a guy has a nice shapely ass or not offends me. It makes me uncomfortable to think that I could be talking to a guy with a flat or saggy bottom and never know it.
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@isiodore13
Well, I read that female to male transsexuals (sorry I don’t know if that is the correct terminology) often say that the sex drive and interest they have in sex when they are on male hormones is entirely different and more intense than the way they felt as women.
Also, comments I’ve read before from women about how women’s dress might effect men, has led me to suspect that they might have a less intense experience of sexuality, at least on the visual level.
But, it is just an impression, I may be wrong.