Men’s Rights Redditors agree: it’s tough to be a man. Well, a cis man, in any case. And those silly trans people are making it worse.
On the Men’s Rights subreddit, one concerned fellow has discovered a possibly insurmountable obstacle standing in the way of true gender equality: A “Women’s Room” at the University of Queensland that, as a sign on its door notes, is open to “trans*, intersex and genderqueer people as well as cis-females.” The horror!
The title of his post: It’s hard to call for equality between genders when stuff like this is so openly accepted by places like Universities.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, his post received more than a thousand upvotes, and inspired more than 300 comments. This will give you some of the flavor of the discussion:
![Does cis not mean straight? I can't keep up with the bullshit they make up. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]lanternkeeper 40 points 1 day ago It means a person who identifies as the sex they were born; i.e. a man who is biologically male or a women who is biologically female aka regular people. I kind of feel dirty writing that. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Endless_Summer 44 points 1 day ago So I was born with a penis, but I can identify as a lesbian woman and be free to use this bathroom? permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]ThePunHunter 43 points 1 day ago Sure you can, and if people tell you otherwise, just tell 'em to check their privileges (because you have it really bad)! This world, man. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]AlphaBetaOmegaGamma 2 points 1 day ago So what are you telling me is that SJWs and feminists make up shit to do whatever they want with no consequences? Damn, I'm impressed. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]pepe_le_pewpewpewpew 30 points 1 day ago Sure, up until you saw this room, your gender was a social construct forced upon you by society, once you saw this sign you realized you were actually a woman all along. As soon as you left, evil social conditioning got the better of you again and you were socially obligated to identify as a man again. Damn you patriarchy! permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Odz2427 1 point 1 day ago Fuckin' cissy permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]krudler5 6 points 1 day ago Isn't "cis" a recently-coined term? I can't recall having heard anyone use the term "cis-gender" before the last 3 or 4 years... permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Elvick 11 points 1 day ago As the "opposite" of transgendered, it certainly is. I learned about Transgendered people in my early teens, I'm 26 now and I only started to hear "cisgendered" because feminists were using it to dismiss and insult men with it. lol The term should die, it serves no purpose other than to shame people.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cis1.png?ssl=1)
The lovely DavidByron2 — one of the subreddit’s most, er, colorful commenters — gets nearly 300 upvotes for suggesting that the poor beleaguered cis man who posted the picture should sue the school for sexual harassment. Naturally, this brilliant legal mind doesn’t actually know what cis means; he thinks it means “straight.”
Elsewhere in the comments, one fellow suggests that a cis man should make a point of going into the room and telling anyone who wants him to leave that they’re not allowed to discriminate against their gender identity.
Naturally, others are enthusiastic about this idea.
![jimmywiddle 13 points 2 days ago Me too, I would real world troll the shit out of that room. I would turn up in an elf costume once and claim I identify as elf kind and therefore don't even qualify as human. permalinksaveparentgive gold [–]mariners77 -3 points 1 day ago And that's why people like you shouldn't be allowed. Nothing wrong with what the parent comment suggested. Go in there, be quiet, and tell people not to assume gender. But trolling just creates more hostilities between sides and makes things worse.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cistroll.png?ssl=1)
Yes, that’s right: the person suggesting that it might not be such a good idea to put on an elf costume and crash a room intended as a “safer space” for women, trans, intersex and genderqueer folks is the one that’s voted down — though even he thinks that invading the safer space would be just peachy.
Yet another commenter tells someone who identifies as a “gender fluid male,” that he “should go and see a doctor if your genitals are leaking fluid.” The jokester gets upvotes; the gender fluid male, who says he goes to UQ and that he “understands why [the room] exists,” gets downvoted below zero.
And Men’s Rights activists wonder why so many people think of their little movement as a hate movement.
H/T — r/againstmensrights
I know there a lot of people who claim that “tumblr types” actually call people “cis-scum”.. I don’t see how that would make any sense, and it makes me wonder if these people even know what it means.
I certain it was meant to be parody by ignorant people, then other ignorant people came to think it was fact. Generally when people complain about “tumblr types” and “tumblr feminism” it’s just shorthand for something like “progressive people I don’t like.”
@Nameless Wonder
I always figured it was this way:
Cisgendered – You were born with a set of genitals and are okay being labeled by them; a cisman is a man born with a penis and is okay being called a man, a ciswoman is a woman born with a vagina and is okay being called a woman.
Transgendered – You were born with a set of genitals but not okay being labeled by those genitals; a transwoman is a woman that wasn’t born with a vagina; a transman is a man born without a penis.
Genderfluid – You were born with a set of genitals but sometimes don’t being labeled by them. Genderfluid peeps can be a man, woman, neither, both, whatever.
Agendered (I think it’s called?) – You were born with a set of genitals but you don’t feel like any gender. You may have a penis, but you don’t identify as a man and you don’t want to be called a woman or whatever.
Annnnd that’s really all the labels I know.
These labels have nothing to do with society’s standards on what femininity is or what masculinity is, because if that were the case, we wouldn’t have all these labels. I’m about as unfeminine as a person can get but I’m still a ciswoman.
@Nameless Wonder: Thank you.
@Pandapool:
Maybe I didn’t express myself very well. I didn’t mean to say that the term “woman” only applies to people who are born a woman and who are everything considered feminine.
Yes, I am fine with the sex of the body I was born into. I am pretty sure I would also be fine with having a penis. I was brought up as a girl/woman and this means that I have learnt what is generally expected of women. I go along with some of it because I have to in order not to face the social consequences because I am not (yet) ready for them.
Being labeled a woman is not something that is important to me and with society’s gender roles it means I have to adapt certain behaviours, but at the moment it is easier for me to just conform as far as I have to than face the consequences of not doing so.
In your last comment, what exactly did you mean by “don’t identify as a man[/woman]”? what does not identifying as a man or woman mean if it doesn’t have anything to do with society’s standards?
I guess I have a lot of reading up to do on some topics…
RE: RedFox
Oh god, the cis scum thing. *sighs, rubs forehead* Okay, so here’s the story about the infamous ‘die cis scum’ thing.
There was a trans person on tumblr named charthebutcher. From what little I recall, pretty hardcore, had been assaulted multiple times due to being trans in the past, etc. They started the whole ‘die cis scum’ thing because when cis people were like, “That makes me really uncomfortable,” they could respond, “Good. Now you know how I feel ALL THE FUCKING TIME. The only difference is: I’m way more likely to be the one who actually gets killed by the person screaming it at me.”
It then blew up into this big fucking thing where a bunch of people took this to mean that all trans people hated cis people and this was terrible, and a bunch of angry trans people started using it as a slogan, and I just watched the whole thing and felt my head ache.
So yes, the cis scum thing is actually a thing, and I’ve personally witnessed it online. The way I figure, bullies are bullies, and they just LOVE the idea of being able to use something to hurt others and claim they’re justified in it. And on tumblr, it has become fairly infamous of people using social justice rhetoric to justify any shitty thing they ever do.
A quote that I think is relevant to highlight from Tyra Lith:
As someone with health problems, I completely understand this.
Our appearance is how we share ourselves with the world. All gender variant people at one time or another, have to choose whether it’s worth the cost to present as who we are, or fly under the radar. Arguably, trans people have it the worst; but does that mean people with passing privilege are cisgendered? I don’t think so.
Feminising a little to avoid conflict is not the same as being comfortable with one’s assigned gender. It’s a coping mechanism.
RE: Tyra Lith
what does not identifying as a man or woman mean if it doesn’t have anything to do with society’s standards?
That’s the hilarious thing: it’s entirely up to you.
For instance, being male is a totally meaningless identifier to me… but it’s still MASSIVELY IMPORTANT. I’ve tried to talk myself out of being male for years, and have always failed. It has nothing to do with the body I’m in, nothing to do with social role or presentation… it’s a totally meaningless, empty category, which I still feel absolutely assured that I belong in. *spreads hands* Gender is WEIRD.
You just don’t feel like either. It has nothing really to do with society’s standards, you just don’t feel like you’re either man or woman. The labels I mentioned aren’t just something for western standards but any cultural standard.
For instance, in one culture perhaps the feminine people are expected to stay home but in another the feminine people are expected to be the breadwinner. However, four transwoman, two from each culture, handle this expectation differently. One transwoman embraces staying at home with a family, another rallies against staying home; one transwoman loves being able to do what society expects of her, another would rather spend time with her family. Just because they’re going with or going against a society standard doesn’t detract from the fact that they are transwomen.
It’s pretty much the same for any label. Just because you may or may not conform to some standard in society doesn’t mean you are that. Is a plumber a man by default, no matter the actual gender the plumber identifies as? No. There are ciswoman, transwoman, transman, cisman, whoever plumbers even if the profession is considered “masculine”.
Labels like this don’t “conform” to any sort of standard society wants from them, it’s just a way to define ourselves and help other define us. The labels don’t hurt us, it’s the standard society puts on those labels that do. Embracing a label and doing whatever you want because you personally want to do it and not because it’s what society expects is about a gender-role breaking as you can get.
Indeed.
@pandapool, if you identify as a cis than I respect that as I would someone who identifies as trans. All I’m asking is for the same respect to be granted to gender variant people who do not identify as cis. If they don’t identify as cis, there’s probably a good reason for it just as someone who identifies as trans.
Also, I am in total agreement that being cis should not be viewed as the default person, and it’s part of the reason I’m not comfortable defaulting people with passing privilege as cis.
Gender is fluid, and it is a spectrum. Yes, it is weird and absolutely worth trying to find out how it defines us as people.
@Nameless Wonder
What other label is there for someone who is born with a vagina but is okay being called a woman?
Admittedly, I don’t know if I’m really a cis-ciswoman, you know? Sometimes I just don’t feel like any gender at all (sometimes even a little more masculine), but I’m alright being labeled as a ciswoman just because i was born with a vagina. Genderfluid doesn’t feel right to me but I know “cis’ isn’t absolutely perfect either, it’s just the one I’m most comfortable with that I know of.
It might be under the umbrella of genderqueer. Also, if your gender tends to change you might be ambigendered, like being ambidextrous able to use both hands, but with gender you are able to utilize all gendered traits or don’t need any at all. Bigendered would be identifying both male and female at any time or at the same time. Then there’s pangendered, third gendered ect.
I knew a gay man who was technically bisexual, but because he preferred male partners, he identified as gay. So it could be you feel mostly cis, instinctively identify as cis, but have elements of gender variance as well. If you feel something is not quite right, then I’d definitely take some time to understand why.
I think gender and sexuality are visceral – they are something you instinctively know, more or less. It can be a lifelong process, and it might even change. Only you can know for sure, though.
As an Intersex person I can attest to the fact that many Intersex people and those who have Intersex conditions really do get pissed off and hate it when Trans and genderqueer people try to use Intersex people to justify their arguments to people. I have see many Trans & genderqueers who try to use intersex as a gotcha in an argument. It’s nothing more than a red herring. It’s why Intersex people are not happy with the fact that their community is being used to justify another community, which has nothing to do with them.
I’m sure this comment will be torn apart, but I doubt unisex bathrooms will ever become widespread, for the simple reason that sharing facilities with members of the group you’re attracted to isn’t appealing – not because the opposite sex is gross or alien or anything, but in terms of the context in which we are seen, by them. It’s an issue of privacy. I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing a no.2 while women walk in and out.
I’ve no idea how gay men feel, but I’d hazard a guess they’re also a stage more uneasy than the rest of us.
Just realized how quaint and unintentionally funny that sounds, given how people have been discussing the semantics of gender terms and at length.
I was in a co-ed dorm in college, where my hall shared a bathroom; toilet and shower. Somehow we survived this horrendously awkward situation.
It’s all a matter of what you’re used to. One year of unisex bathrooms and nobody will be thinking twice about it.
@Nameless Wonder
Thanks you for the link. It lead me to androgyny. And, whoa, there a whole lot of androgyny specs out there.
When I look in the mirror, sometimes I see a rather androgynous face, nothing too feminine or too masculine about it, although sometimes I see a woman. I very, very rarely see a man even though I feel a little masculine sometimes. But I don’t necessarily “feel” more, I just am more? It’s not that I feel more masculine or feminine at times, I just am? Like, it not something that changing, per se, but always there. Like how a beetle shell is always iridescent no matter the angle or amount of light. It sounds a little weird but it’s the right way to describe it.
So I googled “androgyny” and I found gender.wikia.com.
Under androgyny, they have femandrogyne, which is when you’re androgynous but you feel slightly more feminine. I feel feminine more often than I feel non-gendered or masculine. This sounds like a much better label for me than ciswoman, but I rather like the ciswoman more because I am a woman, but I am more than that sometimes. Maybe, something more like androgynous ciswoman.
I’m not exactly sure about this though. It feels like I’m co-opting something. I really need to mull this around a little more.
But I really appreciate this. It opened my eyes to something I wasn’t quite sure was there.
I’m also really sorry to Tyra Lith.
Eh, unisex bathrooms wouldn’t bother me. Though if there were urinals instead of just stalls I might be a little uncomfortable, I’ll be honest. And the dudes might be confused by the weird little boxes they strap to the walls of the stalls.
…On that topic, damn, what do trans men do with their menstrual stuff? I suppose it’s only really a problem for the ones who aren’t on testosterone, which I believe stops all that nasty business, but still. Not having that available has got to suck.
One more reason for unisex washrooms I suppose.
Damn, my comment got lost (or maybe it will be repeated). I say I am cis but I only ever felt female when I was in bed with a guy. 90% of the time I feel gender neutral. And I haven’t slept with anyone for about 10 years. Does that make me something other than cis ? I don’t want to claim a gender identity if I don’t belong to it.
Anywhere that has only one toilet/ bathroom has a unisex bathroom. Like most small cafes, or my house. I don’t know why people get weirded out by this – everyone queues outside, the stall itself is totally closed off… it’s just… the easiest arrangement in the world. And there’s no opportunity for anything “untoward”, so that counter-argument is utter bullshit.
Interesting about the discussion on the word “cis”.
I’m personally comfortable being described as a cis woman. I can understand the pitfall of applying the “cis” label to people without checking if they’re cool with it, but I have come across quite a few people getting angry about it being “a slur”, which is just not true.
(Beloved next to me argues that anything is a slur if the recipient takes it as one, but I think to be a slur, historical context has to taken into account, so I will never consider “cis” to be a slur).
I take “cis” to mean that I was born with female sex characteristics, feel “womanly” on an intuitive level, was raised within the social framework of being “a girl”, and I present myself as generally feminine, without really giving a second thought to my gender identity.
Like, if I was one of those toys where you twist the blocks to jumble up the picture, my head (socialisation), torso (intuitive gender “feeling”), crotch (sex organs), and legs (trousers/ skirt – i.e. gender presentation) would all match up. Nobody would think anything was incongruent about my gender.
Is that a good analogy, or no? It’s probably not perfect, but I hope it makes sense.
I think being able to define oneself outside, or in relation to the gender binary is a positive step towards dismantling the binary altogether. So I see any discussion of what it means to be genderqueer, or trans, or neutrois or any gender identity to be generally A Good Thing for Feminism. But most of all, it’s a good thing for the people who want to define their own identities, and who need and deserve liberation just like everyone marginalised by the Kyriarchy.
I think Tes was talking only about people who do identify as “Not-trans” but don’t like the word “Cis” because [insert transphobic crap here], not people who identify as nonbinary/variant or people who are questioning their identity, since the conversation was only about the former at the time. ^^;
@gilshalos
Think I’ve heard of something called “situational genderfluid”, someone who’s gender shifts based on environment and circumstances, or something like that. That might fit if you feel agender most of the time but feel female when in bed with a man. Hope that was helpful, I’m not an expert on any of this stuff. Ultimately it’s your call what lable you feel fits you best.
@AltoFronto
As you say, that’s a single, closed off toilet/bathroom, not something that’s practical for large office building, for example.
A gender-neutral multi-stall bathroom would be pretty much the same deal – closed stalls that can be used by anyone. I don’t see why it’s any different if there is a shared sink area, as long as everyone is doing their business in a closed stall anyway.
It would just look like a women’s bathroom.
I’ve never understood why urinals even exist, to be honest. *shrug*
But all bathrooms might as well already be gender-neutral, in the strictly practical sense, in that each binary toilet gets used by people of various genders at some point anyway, because folk have to pee somewhere.
I think it’s not always up to the person the label is applied to to decide whether it’s a slur or not, and I don’t think that people always without exception has the right to decide which words apply to them. Because at the end of the day, words mean things. If you’re a woman who was born with a vagina and assigned female at birth, then you’re a cis woman by definition. Sure, it’s you’re right to say “wait! I’m not actually a woman. I’m an agender person” or whatever. But you can’t say “Yep, I’m a woman, born with a vagina, have always been a woman legally speaking, but I’m not cis!” – because that’s just what cis means. It’s just like you can’t say “yep, I’m hired by this coffee shop to ask people what they want to order and then bring their coffee and cakes to their tables, but I’m not a waitress!” – because that’s just what waitress means.
Furthermore, I’ve come across female feminists who go on and on about how much they hate men, I’ve come across homosexuals who go on about how much they hate straights, and trans people who go on about how much they hate cis people and so on. It’s a trend among a certain segment (usually pretty young) of the social justice group right now – if you really hate the group that is privileged over your own group, that goes to show that you’re a really passionate social justice person, and that you don’t try to “suck up” to the oppressors. So people end up almost boasting about how much they hate men/straight people/cis people/etc. I really, really dislike this trend. But it doesn’t mean that we should do away with terms like “cis”, “hetero” or “man” for that matter, or that these terms have now become slurs.
That’s the arrangement at Arlanda airport that I talked about further up the thread. For most of the airport there are only gender neutral restrooms, a long row of stalls and then a shared sink area.
Also, I just remember they have the same arrangement at Stockholm Central Station.
It’s no problem, really.