Men’s Rights Redditors agree: it’s tough to be a man. Well, a cis man, in any case. And those silly trans people are making it worse.
On the Men’s Rights subreddit, one concerned fellow has discovered a possibly insurmountable obstacle standing in the way of true gender equality: A “Women’s Room” at the University of Queensland that, as a sign on its door notes, is open to “trans*, intersex and genderqueer people as well as cis-females.” The horror!
The title of his post: It’s hard to call for equality between genders when stuff like this is so openly accepted by places like Universities.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, his post received more than a thousand upvotes, and inspired more than 300 comments. This will give you some of the flavor of the discussion:
![Does cis not mean straight? I can't keep up with the bullshit they make up. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]lanternkeeper 40 points 1 day ago It means a person who identifies as the sex they were born; i.e. a man who is biologically male or a women who is biologically female aka regular people. I kind of feel dirty writing that. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Endless_Summer 44 points 1 day ago So I was born with a penis, but I can identify as a lesbian woman and be free to use this bathroom? permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]ThePunHunter 43 points 1 day ago Sure you can, and if people tell you otherwise, just tell 'em to check their privileges (because you have it really bad)! This world, man. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]AlphaBetaOmegaGamma 2 points 1 day ago So what are you telling me is that SJWs and feminists make up shit to do whatever they want with no consequences? Damn, I'm impressed. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]pepe_le_pewpewpewpew 30 points 1 day ago Sure, up until you saw this room, your gender was a social construct forced upon you by society, once you saw this sign you realized you were actually a woman all along. As soon as you left, evil social conditioning got the better of you again and you were socially obligated to identify as a man again. Damn you patriarchy! permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Odz2427 1 point 1 day ago Fuckin' cissy permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]krudler5 6 points 1 day ago Isn't "cis" a recently-coined term? I can't recall having heard anyone use the term "cis-gender" before the last 3 or 4 years... permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Elvick 11 points 1 day ago As the "opposite" of transgendered, it certainly is. I learned about Transgendered people in my early teens, I'm 26 now and I only started to hear "cisgendered" because feminists were using it to dismiss and insult men with it. lol The term should die, it serves no purpose other than to shame people.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cis1.png?ssl=1)
The lovely DavidByron2 — one of the subreddit’s most, er, colorful commenters — gets nearly 300 upvotes for suggesting that the poor beleaguered cis man who posted the picture should sue the school for sexual harassment. Naturally, this brilliant legal mind doesn’t actually know what cis means; he thinks it means “straight.”
Elsewhere in the comments, one fellow suggests that a cis man should make a point of going into the room and telling anyone who wants him to leave that they’re not allowed to discriminate against their gender identity.
Naturally, others are enthusiastic about this idea.
![jimmywiddle 13 points 2 days ago Me too, I would real world troll the shit out of that room. I would turn up in an elf costume once and claim I identify as elf kind and therefore don't even qualify as human. permalinksaveparentgive gold [–]mariners77 -3 points 1 day ago And that's why people like you shouldn't be allowed. Nothing wrong with what the parent comment suggested. Go in there, be quiet, and tell people not to assume gender. But trolling just creates more hostilities between sides and makes things worse.](https://i0.wp.com/www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cistroll.png?ssl=1)
Yes, that’s right: the person suggesting that it might not be such a good idea to put on an elf costume and crash a room intended as a “safer space” for women, trans, intersex and genderqueer folks is the one that’s voted down — though even he thinks that invading the safer space would be just peachy.
Yet another commenter tells someone who identifies as a “gender fluid male,” that he “should go and see a doctor if your genitals are leaking fluid.” The jokester gets upvotes; the gender fluid male, who says he goes to UQ and that he “understands why [the room] exists,” gets downvoted below zero.
And Men’s Rights activists wonder why so many people think of their little movement as a hate movement.
H/T — r/againstmensrights
@DGL
Well, I never said it was 100% awesome and great portrayal, but I also didn’t I describe every moment with Greg and Terry (because there’s a lot) and I also didn’t explain the whole episodes because the show concentrates most on Stan learning a lesson but I’ll explain the episodes in more detail because they aren’t as bad as you probably think they are maybe.
After the Republican Convention refuses to pick Stan he is actually approved by the Log Cabin Republicans to speak at the convention on their behalf (because they thought he was gay after accidentally depicting Lincoln and his bodyguard pretty much in love). However, they soon find out that Stan actually hosted several “gay people are the devil” types of fundraisers thingies and they kick them out. Stan decides that the only way he’s going to be able to speak for the Log Cabin Republicans is if he turns gay. Since Terry and Greg are on a break, Stan decides to take Terry on a date but for some reason Stan isn’t into it. Then Stan figures out that being gay isn’t a choice; he then crashes the Republican Convention, which was barring the Log Cabin Republicans out, and gives a speech that explains that Stan tried being gay but he just couldn’t do it, so he convinces the Republican Convention to actually let the Log Cabin Republicans in by saying (paraphrasing) “gay people don’t choose to be gay, but they did choose to be Republican, even though Republicans are awful to gay people; besides, all this hate towards gay people can be directed at Democrats!” There was cheering. The episode aired back in 2006.
Then the baby episode. When Stan figures out that Greg and Terry are going to have a baby, Stan freaks out because he doesn’t believe that gay couples should have kids. Once the baby is born, he kidnaps their daughter and decides to go to Nebraska to give the child up to adoption. Stan, being chased by pretty much everyone because he fucking kidnaps a baby, takes refuge at a farm which turns out to be run by a lesbian couple with two kids. Stan also kidnaps those kids, saying they’d never grow up normal, which the kids of course argue with him about. After several questions asking what they would do without a dad (“where will you learn how to throw a football?””my football coach“”who’s going to lift you onto their shoulders so you can see the parade?””my mom is 6’2 in heels” that schtick), Stan figures out that children raised by gay couples are normal, so he returns the children and Greg and Terry get their baby back. They also get a restraining order against Stan. The episode aired in 2007.
Then the dad episode. Terry is still hasn’t told his dad he’s gay, and once Stan gets tired of Greg (who is irritable since he was kicked out of his own home and shit), Stan gets drunk and outs Terry to his father. Terry and Terry’s father aren’t happy and Stan tries to make it up by destroying all the wisdom he’s learned about gay people to him with no success (character growth, woo). Near the end, Stan tries to guilt trip Terry’s father into accepting him by saying he was gay at an awards assembly for Terry’s dad’s achievement. Terry finally stands up and states that he’s gay, he has a family, and he’d like his father to be apart of it, but his father refuses, saying he can’t accept it. It didn’t work and Terry is rightfully upset about it being public. It ends with Francine trying to defend Stan but Greg and Terry take none of it. The episode aired in 2009.
They aren’t perfect, yeah, but at least American Dad gets some sort of positive message out there in a better way than Family Guy. There are definitely still problems, with Rodger happening to be a big, constant offender, however.
Oh, one thing I forgot. Greg tries to convince Terry to come out to his father, but Terry chickens out at the last second, which is another reason why Greg was rather upset about the situation,
“Cis” “Cisgender” are sexist and not feminist terms in my opinion
They naturalize and erase the gender system by which males maintain domination of females in patriarchy.
… The hell does “Not-trans” have to do with erasing patriarchy? o_O
OK, I learnt the term ‘cis’ or ‘cisgendered’ here. And I find it a handy shortcut to say what I am. Even though I am not feminine by most standards, I am cis female.
If it is truly offensive, I will use another term, if one is suggested.
I like “cisgendered” for the same reasons that M, spindrift and tes identified. I have linguistic issues with the abbreviation “cis”, but I accept that other people’s gender identities come ahead of my desire to preserve Latin prefixes.
Radfems: Straight men will use trans issues to enter women’s safe spaces!
Trans: Oh that’s never gonna happen!
Straight dudes: Hey look! Loophole to go into women’s spaces and be an asshole! Sweet!
We need gender neutral bathrooms in addition to women’s rooms. Personally, I’d like to see them also be family rooms so that dads have a place to deal with diapers, sticky little hands and whatnot.
As in… cisgender? Isn’t it necessary that a gender system exists in the first place for someone to be trans- or cisgender? How is it erasing the gender system?
@talbotfish
Um, no? Expanding society’s idea of what gender is can only help feminism. Breaking down gender roles includes breaking down the idea that genitals determine gender.
@may
Indeed, there are dudebros who would use it as an excuse, and that doesn’t mean that transgender people should be denied the right to use the restroom of/enter safe spaces for their gender. If someone just goes in, doesn’t make a disruption, and leaves, then it doesn’t actually matter what gender they identify as or what genitals they have. If someone goes in and makes a disruption… guess what! It also doesn’t matter, because they’re being disruptive either way.
Also, there are two reasons dudebros could have for going in:
1) Make a big deal about being a cis guy (which would get them kicked out.)
2) applies only to bathrooms, changing rooms, and such: spy on women in states of undress. If the issue is “they might want to see naked women” then you’ll have to ban lesbians, bi women, pan women, et cetera. If the issue is “they might attempt to hit on naked women” then see #1 about them being kicked out.
Personally, I do find gender norms and gender expectations of our cultures to be generally pretty toxic, and I would like it if gender stopped being a big part of society as a whole. That said, I think appropriate gender labels are important for a lot of people to come to terms with their identity. Having vocabulary for the gender identities that people have beyond ‘normal’ and ‘abnormal’, is incredibly important in challenging some of the current and toxic gender expectations in our society and allowing marginalized people a better voice with which to communicate and express themselves. It allows for better understanding and less dehumanization, which is a goal that feminism should absolutely be behind.
Working to dismantle the system of gender expectations is well and good, but telling people who are most disadvantaged by the current system that they cannot make any changes themselves isn’t progressive at all. And it’s easy for people who have privilege and are seen as the default to talk about how labels shouldn’t matter, we don’t need to talk about this any more (see: White people who claim to not see colour).
It’s like how I view marriage (as it stands as currently as government-sanctioned and religious thing) as a kind of outdated and problematic thing on account of it allowing the government to make calls on and give special legitimacy to certain individual and interpersonal relationships. It places great importance on monogamous, generally heterosexual, romantic and sexual relationships and minimizes any platonic or non-monogamous relationships as lesser or undesirable. But I absolutely support marriage equality, because marriage isn’t going to go away any time soon and denying it to only select and already marginalized people will do absolutely nothing to make the institution less problematic, and is purely an act of discrimination, not protest against a flawed system.
AFAIK, it’s pretty much a non-problem that cis men go into women’s restrooms, changing rooms and so on claiming to be trans women. I’m not saying it has never ever happened, only it’s not really something that happens on a regular basis.
On the other hand, it does happen on a regular basis that trans people get harassed simply because they wanna use public rest rooms.
Even if it was a big problem with cis men going into women’s restrooms claiming to be trans women, saying that everyone must use the restroom corresponding to the gender they were assigned at birth wouldn’t solve this problem. Said cis dudes could then keep going into women’s restroom claiming to be trans men (it’s not like the women there are gonna be able to check these dudes birth certificates or anything).
Personally, I think gender neutral restrooms are the best. I’ve done a fair bit of flying during the last year, and I noticed that in much of Arlanda Airport there are only gender neutral restrooms (obvs stalls only, no urinars (urinar? Is that the word in English? Hope you know what I mean, the place where dudes are supposed to stand next to each other and take a piss)). I never saw this leading to any kind of problem. People just go in there and do their business, end of story.
@Dvärghundspossen
We call them “urinals”.
@Pandapool
You mean, the cis men?
http://i58.tinypic.com/2z9baqe.gif
I think it’s important to point out, that just because a woman is not trans, does not necessarily means she is cis. If a woman is repudiating society’s gender roles, AND fighting them with every ounce of her being, AND she is telling you on no uncertain terms that she is not cisgendered, AND she is telling you that calling her cisgendered is a blatant disregard for who she is as a person; then she is not cisgendered.
Perhaps she’s agendered, ambigendered, or gender neutral; and she may even want to discuss it and keep it to herself. The point is, it’s never a good idea to call someone something that they are not, and keep calling them that without regard to her human right to define herself.
That’s why gender fluidity needs to have distinctions. Just like not everyone is either gay or straight, not everyone is trans or cis.
@gilshalos:
I don’t know if it’s offensive, if it fits who you are and you feel comfortable using it, it’s ultimately your decision.
If you don’t feel it quite describes you, then you could look into words that fall under the umbrella of genderqueer.
But I don’t see how that makes cis an offensive or problematic term. Nobody was saying that trans and cis are the only possible states of being, we’re all aware that gender and sex aren’t actually binaries, but the people complaining about being called cis generaly do so because they don’t like the idea of their “default” status being treated like “others.” There still hasn’t been an argument for why “normal” (ugh) people shouldn’t have a term to describe their gender expression.
Good point.
@tresformers:
I don’t know, I certainly don’t feel comfortable with being called “cis” and this doesn’t have anything to do with not liking the idea of losing a “default status”.
it’s more like, I really have a problem with society’s gender roles and even though I perform femininity in a few ways I do not do so because I somehow have a sort of connection with “being a woman” but because I have limited energy and feel like I have to pick my battles. Being a woman is of course an important part of my identity because being read as a woman influences how people treat me and so on, but it does not mean more than that to me.
You are right that nobod was saying that trans and cis are the only possible states of being but I think that in most cases when those words are used it is assumed that you are either trans or cis. And being automatically sorted into the “cis” box because I am not trans just doesn’t feel right to me.
Please let me know if there was anything offensive in my comment, by the way! I know that I am not perfectly informed about trans issues and I don’t want to offend or hurt anyone.
See, shit like this is why I just wish there were more gender-neutral bathrooms. Except apparently people flip their shit about that too. I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO FUCKING PISS.
RE: talbotfish
“Cis” “Cisgender” are sexist and not feminist terms in my opinion
They naturalize and erase the gender system by which males maintain domination of females in patriarchy.
Ah, good to see you’re one of those assholes who think trans people enforce gender oppression. Go fuck yourself.
RE: Tyra Lith
Being a woman is of course an important part of my identity because being read as a woman influences how people treat me and so on, but it does not mean more than that to me.
Yes, but the thing is… you get cis privilege, even so. You don’t get harassed in bathrooms–or have to agonize about where you’re going to go and plan it out ahead of time. You aren’t afraid of someone calling you transphobic slurs and attacking or killing you because of that. You aren’t afraid of losing your job and or housing because someone finds out you’re not entirely comfortable with gender.
I do. I know trans people who’ve been pushed into sex work, unemployement, disownment, and homelessness because they’re trans. If being forced under a label like ‘cis’ makes you uncomfortable, how do you think I feel being tagged with ‘trans’ for life? It’s not exactly a label I CHOSE. It’s what society has forced upon me, and makes me pay for.
@LBT:
I know. I know I do have privilege because I am not trans. I hate that people have to go through all of what you listed just because a huge part of society thinks there is no problem with making them suffer or even killing them – just because they are who they are. it is awful and it should not be like that.
I just wanted to voice my personal feelings concerning the “cis” label. I didn’t mean to downplay any of what you/trans people are going through because of their identity and I apologize if it did come across that way.
I disagree. I see the treatment of gender variant women as a lot like how people treat asexuality or pansexuality in the discussion of sexual orientation. It’s almost non-existent. People acknowledge that there’s more than just trans/cis but political dialogue almost always completely excludes it.
Even your comment defaults back to “women who say they aren’t cis actually are, they just don’t want to lose their default status.” That’s exactly the problem here – you’re labeling someone despite her telling you who she is.
Again: if a woman says she’s not cisgendered, and she’s doing obvious stuff that doesn’t conform to gender roles, then she’s not cisgendered. We can debate back and forth with this for hours, but the fact remains – it’s up to her to decide who she is, not us.
@Tyra Lith, you’re fine. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to be called something that doesn’t apply to you.
There is also a term I’ve heard of, called “passing privilege” or “person of passing privilege.” This has been used for race as well as gender status.
@Nameless Wonder
But Tyra Lith says she’s comfortable being a woman and was born a woman, isn’t that, like, what cisgendered is? It’s like the Honey Badgers saying they’re transgendered because they aren’t super feminine. Is it okay for them to identify as transgender if they say they aren’t cisgendered?
There’s a difference between being uncomfortable with a label because it doesn’t describe who you are and just not like a label because it involves “gendered” things. Being a ciswoman has nothing to do with being feminine, which is what Tyra Lith is saying having the label “cis” is.
It sounds like she’s comfortable being a woman and was a born a woman thus she is cis. That doesn’t mean she has to “perform femininity”, it just means she’s fine with having a vagina and being labeled a woman.
I always understood it like this: does your gender match your body? If not, then you aren’t cisgendered.
Examples: cross dressers are gender variant, but they have no problem with the bodies they are born into. Therefore, they are not trans. Does that make them cisgendered or immune to the problems trans people face? Nope.