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Men’s Rights Redditors agree: Trans, intersex and genderqueer folks are silly and annoying and hinder true equality

Men's Rights Activists agree: This room oppresses them
This sign oppresses Men’s Rights Activists

Men’s Rights Redditors agree: it’s tough to be a man. Well, a cis man, in any case. And those silly trans people are making it worse.

On the Men’s Rights subreddit, one concerned fellow has discovered a possibly insurmountable obstacle standing in the way of true gender equality: A “Women’s Room” at the University of Queensland that, as a sign on its door notes, is open to “trans*, intersex and genderqueer people as well as cis-females.” The horror! 

The title of his post: It’s hard to call for equality between genders when stuff like this is so openly accepted by places like Universities.

Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, his post received more than a thousand upvotes, and inspired more than 300 comments. This will give you some of the flavor of the discussion:

Does cis not mean straight? I can't keep up with the bullshit they make up. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]lanternkeeper 40 points 1 day ago  It means a person who identifies as the sex they were born; i.e. a man who is biologically male or a women who is biologically female aka regular people. I kind of feel dirty writing that. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Endless_Summer 44 points 1 day ago  So I was born with a penis, but I can identify as a lesbian woman and be free to use this bathroom? permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]ThePunHunter 43 points 1 day ago  Sure you can, and if people tell you otherwise, just tell 'em to check their privileges (because you have it really bad)! This world, man. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]AlphaBetaOmegaGamma 2 points 1 day ago  So what are you telling me is that SJWs and feminists make up shit to do whatever they want with no consequences? Damn, I'm impressed. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]pepe_le_pewpewpewpew 30 points 1 day ago  Sure, up until you saw this room, your gender was a social construct forced upon you by society, once you saw this sign you realized you were actually a woman all along. As soon as you left, evil social conditioning got the better of you again and you were socially obligated to identify as a man again. Damn you patriarchy! permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Odz2427 1 point 1 day ago  Fuckin' cissy permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]krudler5 6 points 1 day ago  Isn't "cis" a recently-coined term? I can't recall having heard anyone use the term "cis-gender" before the last 3 or 4 years... permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Elvick 11 points 1 day ago  As the "opposite" of transgendered, it certainly is. I learned about Transgendered people in my early teens, I'm 26 now and I only started to hear "cisgendered" because feminists were using it to dismiss and insult men with it. lol The term should die, it serves no purpose other than to shame people. cis2

The lovely DavidByron2 — one of the subreddit’s most, er, colorful commenters — gets nearly 300 upvotes for suggesting that the poor beleaguered cis man who posted the picture should sue the school for sexual harassment. Naturally, this brilliant legal mind doesn’t actually know what cis means; he thinks it means “straight.”

cisbyron

Elsewhere in the comments, one fellow suggests that a cis man should make a point of going into the room and telling anyone who wants him to leave that they’re not allowed to discriminate against their gender identity.

Naturally, others are enthusiastic about this idea.

jimmywiddle 13 points 2 days ago  Me too, I would real world troll the shit out of that room. I would turn up in an elf costume once and claim I identify as elf kind and therefore don't even qualify as human. permalinksaveparentgive gold [–]mariners77 -3 points 1 day ago  And that's why people like you shouldn't be allowed. Nothing wrong with what the parent comment suggested. Go in there, be quiet, and tell people not to assume gender. But trolling just creates more hostilities between sides and makes things worse.

Yes, that’s right: the person suggesting that it might not be such a good idea to put on an elf costume and crash a room intended as a “safer space” for women, trans, intersex and genderqueer folks is the one that’s voted down — though even he thinks that invading the safer space would be just peachy.

Yet another commenter tells someone who identifies as a “gender fluid male,” that he “should go and see a doctor if your genitals are leaking fluid.” The jokester gets upvotes; the gender fluid male, who says he goes to UQ and that he “understands why [the room] exists,” gets downvoted below zero.

And Men’s Rights activists wonder why so many people think of their little movement as a hate movement.

H/T — r/againstmensrights

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cupisnique
5 years ago

I don’t see how it would matter at all to share a bathroom with the gender you are attracted to. I mean, especially for public washrooms where I imagine most people aren’t trying to pick up any dates . . . they’re just doing their business and getting out and will likely never see any of those strangers again.

Mezza
Mezza
5 years ago

I don’t post here as often as I should, but I wanted to mention in response to Pandapool:

“Admittedly, I don’t know if I’m really a cis-ciswoman, you know? Sometimes I just don’t feel like any gender at all (sometimes even a little more masculine), but I’m alright being labeled as a ciswoman just because i was born with a vagina. Genderfluid doesn’t feel right to me but I know “cis’ isn’t absolutely perfect either, it’s just the one I’m most comfortable with that I know of.”

I’m actually happy to see someone who feels the same way as myself! I was assigned female at birth, I’m comfortable in my body, I present as female and I don’t feel uncomfortable with she/her pronouns.

But I don’t know if I ‘feel’ female, if that makes sense? As in, when I ask myself the question “am I a woman?” I feel really uncomfortable. I don’t feel as if I know the answer; I can’t confidently say I’m a woman.
I don’t think I’m agender, but I don’t know if I’m under the genderfluid umbrella either. I also don’t think cis fits me completely either, though I am fully aware that I still get passing privilege so long as I present as a cis woman.

Sorry, I don’t have anything useful to add to the conversation. I just wanted to share my experience.
Thanks to Nameless Wonder for the link to the genderqueer Wikipedia article as well. I’ve looked at it but I’m not really any more confident about my gender identity as I was before.

mildlymagnificent
5 years ago

We need gender neutral bathrooms in addition to women’s rooms. Personally, I’d like to see them also be family rooms so that dads have a place to deal with diapers, sticky little hands and whatnot.

The solution to all these obvious problems, and some less obvious ones, is pretty good where I live. We have men’s, women’s and “disabled” toilets. However, what’s happened over the last couple of decades is that people have realised that disabled toilets take up a lot of space – which matters a lot when you’re talking about commercial premises.

The solution? They’ve made them even bigger. There are no separate disabled cubicles for men or for women in the (wo)men’s toilets. There are no separate facilities for changing babies. The change tables are in the much larger space of a disabled toilet. Works a charm when you have one parent with an infant needing to be changed and a couple of toddlers who may or may not need to use the toilet. The whole family plus pram or shopping trolley (in a shopping centre) can use the toilets without mum or dad needing to find someone trustworthy to watch the kid/s or being crammed up together in an ordinary stall.

Less obvious? Costs. Once again these are commercial facilities. If you provide unisex facilities for a large group, you will have to provide additional containers for disposal of tampons, pads, nappies. At the moment, owners only have to provide enough for the stalls in the women’s and the disabled toilets. Adding in all the men’s facilities as well, with no increase in the number of clients or customers or employees or whoever, means that they will have to pay extra for disposal. (Here the containers are delivered and taken away by contractors. That might not matter in places where the costs have been gradually incurred/ increased. Arguing for it here would be an additional cost all in one hit that doesn’t provide anything more or better than what we already have.)

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

My grandmother once complained about gender neutral bathrooms because she said it ruined a first date for her. I supposed taking a dump next to someone ruins the mystique, but couldn’t they have just taken turns?
For some women it is mortifying that men might find out they poop. I’m sure it is a shock for some men too but can’t we get over that silliness?
Meanwhile I’m like:
http://cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/5172013005731.jpg

emilygoddess - WHTM Mod
emilygoddess - WHTM Mod
5 years ago

If the issue is “they might want to see naked women” then you’ll have to ban lesbians, bi women, pan women, et cetera.

Hey, queer woman here, and me looking at women is nothing like the male gaze or the predatory creeping that men are far more likely than women to engage in. This is a hair’s breadth from that “all genders do it equally” MRA bullshit.

I was in a co-ed dorm in college, where my hall shared a bathroom; toilet and shower. Somehow we survived this horrendously awkward situation.

OK, but aren’t you a guy? How did the women feel about the situation? Because as a woman I would feel incredibly vulnerable having to be naked with men around unless I knew those men really, really well.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

I’m actually happy to see someone who feels the same way as myself! I was assigned female at birth, I’m comfortable in my body, I present as female and I don’t feel uncomfortable with she/her pronouns.

But I don’t know if I ‘feel’ female, if that makes sense?

I don’t really “feel like a woman” either. I actually think this is fairly common among AFAB:s.
I don’t think we should include “really feel like a woman/man” in the definition of “cis” though. In order to have the privilegies typically associated with being cis, it’s perfectly sufficient that you’re okay with having a vagina, a female name and being called “she” as an AFAB (and analogously for an AMAB). You don’t need to have any strong feeling of “this is absolutely, totally right for me, I’m so totally a woman”.

BabbyFem
BabbyFem
5 years ago

You aren’t afraid of someone calling you transphobic slurs and attacking or killing you because of that. You aren’t afraid of losing your job and or housing because someone finds out you’re not entirely comfortable with gender.

And this is where I get confused about applying the idea of cis privelege to cis women. Because all these things happen to cis women, too. The fact that our gender tends to match what we were assigned doesn’t insulate us from discrimination, systemic oppression, and violence based on that gender. I don’t think gender maps neatly onto a privilege-oppression scale, but where it does, it seems more likely to me that it’s cis men everyone else. But IDK I could be completely off base here?

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

I agree with you. Ciswoman may not be the exact label, but I am cis. That part I can’t deny.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

@ BabbyFem – obviously, I can’t speak for trans folk, but basically Patriarchy “rewards” men and women who conform to their designated genders and perform their genders sufficiently… there’s a certain kind of person (who is really invested in there being a distinct binary), who gets really uncomfortable with the idea of someone not conforming to being a masculine man, or a feminine woman… and may react violently (the “Gay Panic” defense, which is no longer admissible in more and more courts these days).

Basically, Trans folk are at much, much higher risk of being the victim of a hate crime, or being made homeless than any cis person, because of certain people’s squick factor, and stigma surrounding their identities.

Like, trans folk even have a website devoted to helping them find and recommend houses where the other tenants will be cool about their gender and stuff, because ending up living with vicious transphobes would put them in danger.

TL;DR, whatever discrimination and misogyny cis-women face, trans folk get it worse, on account of being seen as “abnormal” or especially “icky” by people who reserve a special kind of intolerance for gender non-conformity, which is, like, almost everyone, unfortunately.

a_mari_usque_ad_mare
a_mari_usque_ad_mare
5 years ago

I think cis is a misleading label for two reasons:

1) People generally don’t self-apply the label, which is important for something that’s a matter of identity and internal experience. For example, a woman in a relationship with another woman may consider herself a lesbian, gay, bi, queer, etc. If someone does feel cis applies to them I have no issue.

2) I don’t think cis is a mirror of trans in the same way homesexual/heterosexual mirror each other. Heterosexual and homosexual are both based on attraction. A trans person feels a gender identity that is the opposite of their sex (as much as male and female are opposites, which is another discussion), whereas a cis person (like some of the posters above) may feel no gender identity, or may reject the idea of gender as meaningless.

I think people use cis when they really mean ‘not trans’, but they want to avoid making trans seeming like something abnormal.

While this is laudable, I think the ideas have become confused. You don’t need to pretend that ‘not collecting stamps’ is just as much of a hobby as collecting is to be cool with people regardless of their stamp collection.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

Oh ‘cis’ is just a shorthand way of saying that someone ‘where their internally identified gender is the same as their birth gender’ as a way of distinguishing from those ‘who don’t identify with their birth gender’ (ie mostly ‘trans’).

I must admit I tend not to use it talking to ‘normal’ people, because it confuses them, but I do it when talking to other trans (etc) people, as a shorthand expression.

The vast majority are ‘cis’ of course. A percentage are trans (of one degree or another) and a percentage are ‘gender fluid’. ‘Cis’ can be a bit of a problematic term with intersexed people.

Gender fluid people can be that way all their lives, or it can be a stage of self exploration after which they settle into a particular gender. Probably a larger than normally understood percentage go through a stage of gender fluidity, particularly during childhood, before working out what they are comfortable with.

Note that I am keeping sexuality out of this, because all the various types can have any sexuality whatsoever.

Personally I see the rise of acceptance of gender fluidity as a positive thing, if for no other reason than it provides a ‘safe place’ for people to self explore and work themselves out.

This can all get a bit confusing to an outsider, especially when some people in the various sub-groups ‘go a bit over the top’ as to the relative superiority of one or the other.

Naturally there is a lot of pressure and ‘policing’ by parents, schools, peers,overall society etc to push people into a particular gender role. This one of the very few areas where males mostly get it worse than females. Not all by any means, but many females are allowed a bit more freedom in their gender expression, eg the tolerance for ‘tomboys’ and that sort of thing. Males (usually) are allowed very little tolerance in gender expression variance.

It is a sad thing to note that many parents (teachers, many ‘experts’, etc) would be far more tolerant of the son being a bit of a thug and a bully than if they wanted to play with girls and dolls……..

This is where ‘toxic masculinity’ starts, a tolerance of ‘bad behaviour’ because it is an acceptable form of male behaviour and preferable to any expression of ‘femininity’. People with this mindset train their sons right from the beginning into a very narrow set of allowable traits. A boy that wants to play with girls (for example) is very quickly corrected into conforming with the virtual ‘apartheid’, where interactions with girls is only allowed to be negative (eg bullying). But there will be greater tolerance of ‘bad behaviour’ that is within the accepted range of male expressions, ‘boys will be boys’ after all.

At the extreme end ‘rape culture’ and violence toward women are tolerated, even tacitly encouraged, male behaviours. With extreme ‘policing’ (up to and including violence and murder) of males who deviate from this model also being acceptable.

This can be (albeit to a lesser extent now) be bolstered by ‘experts’, if the parents become concerned enough. Note that parental concern will usually (but not always of course) be much more for males acting ‘female’ than females acting ‘male’ (but not too much though).

For example from: Cisgenderism in psychology: pathologising and misgendering children from 1999 to 2008. Y. Gavriel Ansara and Peter Hegarty
“One example of Zucker and Bradley’s (1995) method involved restricting the gender expression of a five-year-old self-designated girl:
Bradley would no longer be allowed to spend time with girls. She would no longer be allowed to play with girlish toys or pretend that she was a female character [. . .] As her pile of toys dwindled, [Bradley’s mother] realized Bradley was hoarding. She would find female action figures stashed between couch pillows. Rainbow unicorns were hidden in the back of Bradley’s closet. Bradley seemed at a loss, she said. They gave her male toys, but she chose not to play at all [. . .] Bradley would populate her pictures with the toys and interests she no longer had access to — princesses with long flowing hair, fairies in elaborate dresses, rainbows of pink and purple and pale yellow. So, under Zucker’s direction, [Bradley’s mother] and her husband sought to change this as well. (Spiegel, 2008; misgendering pronouns corrected)”

The question that has to be asked is: would Zucker be so concerned and prescribe such a major effort at behaviour modification for a boy that was a nasty bully towards girls…… I suspect not.

So in our society men do get a ‘free pass’ or at least tolerance, for bad behaviour, but only if it is within that allowable range. In the very truest sense, our society gets the male behaviour it wants.

Tyra Lith
Tyra Lith
5 years ago

This thread has been really insightful this far and I want to thank all of you, reading about different perspectives on this is very valuable for me.

Pandapool: We’re cool 🙂

katz
5 years ago

I think people use cis when they really mean ‘not trans’, but they want to avoid making trans seeming like something abnormal.

While this is laudable, I think the ideas have become confused. You don’t need to pretend that ‘not collecting stamps’ is just as much of a hobby as collecting is to be cool with people regardless of their stamp collection.

But to some extent binaries are just how we use language, though; when we talk about what’s in a category, we also need to talk about what’s not in the category, and we need a term for it. There are many examples of this: Jew/Gentile, theist/atheist, even “person of color.”

Anyway, surely you can settle the whole issue if you just allow for “genderqueer” and other identifiers for people who don’t fit neatly into a binary. Then cis and trans can be strictly defined terms and one is not defined as “anyone who isn’t the other.”

A trans person feels a gender identity that is the opposite of their sex (as much as male and female are opposites, which is another discussion), whereas a cis person (like some of the posters above) may feel no gender identity, or may reject the idea of gender as meaningless.

This strikes me as a bit beside the point. Regardless of whether you think the idea of gender is meaningless or whatever, if you were identified as female at birth and accept the term “female” as an identifier, then you’re cis, because that’s just what it means. You still share the social experience of being cis, just as, say, a white person still shares the social experience of being white even if they reject the concept of race.

Annie Danks
5 years ago

^What happens when you’re uni makes it onto reddit. The UQ Women’s Collective is responding via photo petition. Check it out and signal boost please!

https://www.facebook.com/UQWomensCollective

Annie Danks
5 years ago

^What happens when your uni makes it onto reddit. The UQ Women’s Collective is responding via photo petition. Check it out and signal boost please!

https://www.facebook.com/UQWomensCollective

CorporalCharming
CorporalCharming
5 years ago

“You are male a student there, in the USA and there’s no equivalent for men?” QUEENSLAND IS IN AUSTRALIA! GEOGRAPHY IS NOT THAT HARD!

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

I’ve seen some feminists object to ‘cis’, because ‘cis’ is sometimes defined in a way that makes it sound as if cis people are completely perfectly comfortable with everything gender-related, and feminists make a point of the fact that today’s expectations for the different genders are a shitty deal for women. I think that’s a misunderstanding of what ‘cis’ is supposed to be, but I can see how people object to being labelled ‘cis’ if they had the term explained for them in that way, like “cis people are completely comfortable with being the gender that they were assigned at birth…” or the like.

Also, some people seem to make it a condition for being a cis woman that you really, deeply feel yourself to be a woman, and analogously for being a cis man. But that’s false for a lot of cis people. Not for all, but for a lot. A lot of cis people are what Ozy once labelled “cis by default” – you’re assigned female at birth, you have a vagina, a female name, people use ‘she’ as a pronoun for you and you’re okay with that. Not necessarily embracing it in a “Wow, this is so totally me, I’m so totally a woman, that’s what I really am”-way, but you’re okay with it (and the same for many cis men of course).

@AltoFronto

I take “cis” to mean that I was born with female sex characteristics, feel “womanly” on an intuitive level, was raised within the social framework of being “a girl”, and I present myself as generally feminine, without really giving a second thought to my gender identity.

If I go by AltoFronto’s definition then I’m not cis. I, like a lot of people who grew up gay, struggled what felt like gender failure, but now tend to be called gender nonconforming. I still consider myself a cis woman because I don’t like limiting cis women or men to some sort narrow cast stereotypes who’ve always had a cozy relationship with gender identity. I can be the only woman not in a dress at a formal event and still be a cis woman. I can feel alienated by the portrayal of how women’s gender performance is portrayed in media and still be a cis woman.

I agree with Dvärghundspossen (if I’m reading what she wrote correctly), that it’s too restrictive to have “cis” only applies to people totally comfortable with their gender. It defines cis women and men into a group of cartoonishly conforming people who are, in a sense, proponents of gender conformity. It ironically also defines trans women and men into a group of cartoonishly conforming people who are, in a sense, proponents of gender conformity.

I think women and men, both cis and trans, can be uncomfortable with and fight against the rigid socialization that enforces the binary gender segregation. I feel like a lot of gender experiences are forced on people, so I get people fighting to find an authentic life and feel alienated from the gender binary. I just don’t think throwing every gender stereotype onto people who identify as men and women if fair, helpful or realistic.

BUT…
@Lisa

Probably a larger than normally understood percentage go through a stage of gender fluidity, particularly during childhood, before working out what they are comfortable with.

This was close to my personal experience and I’m well aware that it shapes how I view gender; I do my best to limit projection, but projection often seems to be the main ingredients of gender discussions.

@AltoFronto

I can’t speak for trans folk, but basically Patriarchy “rewards” men and women who conform to their designated genders and perform their genders sufficiently… there’s a certain kind of person (who is really invested in there being a distinct binary), who gets really uncomfortable with the idea of someone not conforming to being a masculine man, or a feminine woman… and may react violently (the “Gay Panic” defense, which is no longer admissible in more and more courts these days).

Some of the worst things I’ve ever heard an adult say about butch lesbians and effeminate gay men, including some really hateful things, were said by gays and lesbians. A lot of the the shit talk involves the oldie but goodie, “if you’re attracted to women/men why are you going out with someone who looks and acts like a man/woman”, and some of it is just complaining how unattractive they are. The fun gay twist is when they complain butch lesbians and effeminate gay men ruin everything for normal gay people.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

@ BabbyFem – obviously, I can’t speak for trans folk, but basically Patriarchy “rewards” men and women who conform to their designated genders and perform their genders sufficiently… there’s a certain kind of person (who is really invested in there being a distinct binary), who gets really uncomfortable with the idea of someone not conforming to being a masculine man, or a feminine woman… and may react violently (the “Gay Panic” defense, which is no longer admissible in more and more courts these days).

Adding to this that privilege is often not about being rewarded for something, but about not being punished for something.
I’m not a very feminine woman; I usually wear men’s clothes, for instance, and have more muscle than the average woman due to doing a fair amount of “lifting”. I don’t have what you might call traditional female interests. I work in a male-dominated field. And so on. No patriarchy is gonna “reward” me for being so feminine.

BUT. As a cis woman, I’ve never been coerced into sterilization (which was still done to transsexuals in Sweden until a few years ago!). I can go to, say, the doctor, and the doctor is not gonna be all like “uh, your body doesn’t match your ID number, what’s up with that!?”. I can use public restrooms without fear of being harassed by people who suppose I don’t belong there. I can go the gym, and it’s quite obvious where I’m supposed to change; it’s in the lady’s changing room. No one questions that. If I weren’t married already, I could go on a date with a guy, and I wouldn’t have the problem of “when am I gonna tell him that I’m trans, when, when…? Must wait until I know I can trust him, but mustn’t wait too long or I become the sneaky deceiver…” I just don’t have that problem. I’m not a victim of trans hate crimes. AND SO ON AND SO ON.

There’s a lot of shit that I don’t have to take. These are my cis privileges, and I have them regardless of whether I wake up every morning and feel “I’m so totally a WOMAN!” and to some extent also regardless of how traditionally feminine I am.. And we shouldn’t pretend like they don’t exist.

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

Great, I’ve got to redo my teal deer thanks to you know who.

@Dvärghundspossen

I’ve seen some feminists object to ‘cis’, because ‘cis’ is sometimes defined in a way that makes it sound as if cis people are completely perfectly comfortable with everything gender-related, and feminists make a point of the fact that today’s expectations for the different genders are a shitty deal for women. I think that’s a misunderstanding of what ‘cis’ is supposed to be, but I can see how people object to being labelled ‘cis’ if they had the term explained for them in that way, like “cis people are completely comfortable with being the gender that they were assigned at birth…” or the like.

Also, some people seem to make it a condition for being a cis woman that you really, deeply feel yourself to be a woman, and analogously for being a cis man. But that’s false for a lot of cis people. Not for all, but for a lot. A lot of cis people are what Ozy once labelled “cis by default” – you’re assigned female at birth, you have a vagina, a female name, people use ‘she’ as a pronoun for you and you’re okay with that. Not necessarily embracing it in a “Wow, this is so totally me, I’m so totally a woman, that’s what I really am”-way, but you’re okay with it (and the same for many cis men of course).

@AltoFronto

I take “cis” to mean that I was born with female sex characteristics, feel “womanly” on an intuitive level, was raised within the social framework of being “a girl”, and I present myself as generally feminine, without really giving a second thought to my gender identity.

If I go by AltoFronto’s definition then I’m not cis. I, like a lot of people who grew up gay, struggled what felt like gender failure, but now tend to be called gender nonconforming. I still consider myself a cis woman because I don’t like limiting cis women or men to some sort narrow cast stereotypes who’ve always had a cozy relationship with gender identity. I can be the only woman not in a dress at a formal event and still be a cis woman. I can feel alienated by the portrayal of how women’s gender performance is portrayed in media and still be a cis woman.

I agree with Dvärghundspossen (if I’m reading what she wrote correctly), that it’s too restrictive to have “cis” only applies to people totally comfortable with their gender. It defines cis women and men into a group of cartoonishly conforming people who are, in a sense, proponents of gender conformity. It ironically also defines trans women and men into a group of cartoonishly conforming people who are, in a sense, proponents of gender conformity.

I think women and men, both cis and trans, can be uncomfortable with and fight against the rigid socialization that enforces the binary gender segregation. I feel like a lot of gender experiences are forced on people, so I get people fighting to find an authentic life and feel alienated from the gender binary. I just don’t think throwing every gender stereotype onto people who identify as men and women if fair, helpful or realistic.

BUT…
@Lisa

Probably a larger than normally understood percentage go through a stage of gender fluidity, particularly during childhood, before working out what they are comfortable with.

This was close to my personal experience and I’m well aware that it shapes how I view gender; I do my best to limit projection, but projection often seems to be the main ingredients of gender discussions.

@AltoFronto

I can’t speak for trans folk, but basically Patriarchy “rewards” men and women who conform to their designated genders and perform their genders sufficiently… there’s a certain kind of person (who is really invested in there being a distinct binary), who gets really uncomfortable with the idea of someone not conforming to being a masculine man, or a feminine woman… and may react violently (the “Gay Panic” defense, which is no longer admissible in more and more courts these days).

Some of the worst things I’ve ever heard an adult say about butch lesbians and effeminate gay men, including some really hateful things, were said by gays and lesbians. A lot of the the shit talk involves the oldie but goodie, “if you’re attracted to women/men why are you going out with someone who looks and acts like a man/woman”, and some of it is just complaining how unattractive they are. The fun gay twist is when they complain butch lesbians and effeminate gay men ruin everything for normal gay people.

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

Adding to this that privilege is often not about being rewarded for something, but about not being punished for something.

I find this comes up in discussions of white privilege after someone tries to disprove the existence of racism by saying “I’m white and my life sucks”. Nope, racism doesn’t exist in order to markedly improve every individual white person’s life.

Nicky
5 years ago

In my opinion, cisgender dose not exist. It’s a Trans & gender queer word used to slut shame and guilt trip people into playing along with the trans and genderqueer politics. It’s why I don’t believe in cisgender or cisprivilege concept. People who fall for the cisgender crap are deluding themselves and kidding themselves.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Slut shaming? What? How are the two connected?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

@Nicky

Bullshit. Just… Bullshit, and gross transphobic bullshit at that. I’m cis. I was assigned female at birth, I feel entirely female, being female is central to who I am, I’m cis. Discovering the word “Cis” was like discovering the word “Gay” – nothing changed, but hey, I have a nice short word to use for it now, awesome! There’s nothing “Political” about it, I haven’t been “GuiIted” into anything (I’m for trans rights not because of any “Guilting” but because I’m not a bigoted piece of shit); as I said before, I just like having a word that isn’t clunky or inherently transphobic to describe how I identify.

Where the fuck is the “Deluding myself” in that?

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Uggh. Sorry if this is getting a little Thread Of Doom-ish.

gilshalos
5 years ago

*high-5’s Scented Fucking Hard Chairs*
I might not feel feminine but I am happy to accept ‘cis’, as a nice short word to use.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

Sorry for not making myself totally clear, and maybe being an imperfect instructor. Like I say, i as a cis person am not in to best position to be an information source on trans issues.

Ok, so you don’t have to be totally “into” your cis gender identity, but you have to at least be ok with your body, and pronouns, and not experience body dysmorphia. Like, I don’t experience what it that makes people “know” that they are trans, but I have to guess that on an instinctive level people must also “know” that they are cis? Maybe without ever really putting any thought into it, it’s just a thing you are?

@Dvarghundpossen – You are totally right, there. That’s what I should have been saying.
Obviously cis-privilege protects people from transphobic violence and a lot of other unpleasant shit, because people like to socially reinforce what is considered “normal” by patriarchal standards – no, I don’t really get “rewarded” for being a cis woman so much as I don’t get nearly as much shit heaped on me. It’s more of a negative reinforcement.
Like Patriarchy tells us “I could make life very unpleasant for you if you don’t fit yourself into my boxes”.

Ok, so throwing in gendered stuff like wearing dresses, etc is confusing, because obviously it doesn’t make me any less of a cis woman if I wear a tux and do “masculine” stuff like putting up shelves, or whatever arbitrary stuff is considered appropriate for manly men.
But performing the gender that one feels is kind of important to how other people sees one, which is what I was trying to get at. Like, we all decide when to play up our “maculine” aspects (being “one of the guys” at work) or be more feminine (maybe when dressing for a date) – there is a lot of context-driven gender performance involved in simply walking down the street, even for cis-folk.

Also – trans people are not just people who were assigned one gender at birth and identify as the opposite – there are many ways to express gender and many gender identites.

A trans person may identify as a woman, but still present in a very masculine way, or identify as no gender at all, but tend towards appearing feminine, as a conscious choice. And that may vary depending on mood, who’s in the room, or what is expected for the context.
Dressing and acting in accordance with one’s gender identity is important, but it wouldn’t make someone not-trans if they didn’t/ couldn’t do this (for reasons of safety).

You don’t have to be “cartoonishly” conforming to any gender to be that gender (or all women would look like Barbie), but a lot of people seem to think it’s their business to police how we look, or how we act, whatever our identities – my dad tells me I should wear more dresses and keep my hair long because it’s “just nicer”. Young boys get dolls snatched away from them and sent to play sports… and sometimes these genders are policed with violence.
And as brooked says, even the LGBTQ communities police gender/sexuality with comments like that. Trans folk are constantly having to justify their existence to people who want to ask intrusive questions about surgery, or bathrooms.

@ Nicky – No, “cis” was coined because there was a need for a word to mean “not-trans”, or “someone whose gender identity agrees with their body”, that was succinct and didn’t alienate trans folk or imply that they were “trans” in opposition to “normal”, which sounds gross and dehumanzing.
Like being “heterosexual” doesn’t shame anyone, nor should “cis”. And I have no problem letting a marginalized group define terms that apply to a system that would otherwise render them invisible or “abnormal” – it doesn’t affect me in any way that the term “cis” comes from the Trans & Genderqueer community. I think it’s only fair that they should be the ones to decide how we should use language to shape the social narrative around our collective existence – otherwise, we might never even have considered it.

Anyway, I hope this post helps clarify a few things. I want to be doing allyship properly, but I guess the best thing is always to look for resources from Trans advocates and let Trans folk be the arbiters of their own experiences. And please do correct me if anything I’ve said rings false, or could be improved upon.

Ellesar
Ellesar
5 years ago

I couldn’t get back to the thread until now – I knew that my comment would get people going! I will explain further.

I identify as lesbian/bi, and came out as lesbian when I was 19. I believe that my perception of gender as a lesbian woman was VERY different to how hetero and many bisexual women perceive their ‘femininity’. I have not read Butler – or other queer theorists, and I am not at all coming from an academic viewpoint when I say that the term cis is not OK for me. It just doesn’t feel right – I don’t find it insulting or anti feminist – but I just do not wish to use the term.

I don’t appreciate whoever it was having a go about the way I said ‘I am trans positive but’. I work with trans people so on a day to day level I know trans people. One of my colleagues left her previous work (to work with us) because that organisation would not work with trans people. This is more relevant than using the ‘right’ words – actually communicating with and supporting – which is what my organisation does.

sevenofmine
5 years ago

Ellesar:

I don’t appreciate whoever it was having a go about the way I said ‘I am trans positive but’. I work with trans people so on a day to day level I know trans people. One of my colleagues left her previous work (to work with us) because that organisation would not work with trans people. This is more relevant than using the ‘right’ words – actually communicating with and supporting – which is what my organisation does.

It was far from clear in your previous post that you were only talking about what was comfortable for you personally. A fact which you seem to be completely aware of as evidenced by you saying you knew it’d get people going. So, ask me how many fucks I give about whether you appreciate me having a go at your wording.

mariana Pedroso
mariana Pedroso
5 years ago

“And Men’s Rights activists wonder why so many people think of their little movement as a hate movement.”

And they are. That’s why they upgraded their name to MHRA/M, which in reality means Men’s Hate Rights Activists/Movement.

Ellesar
Ellesar
5 years ago

sevenofmine – by getting people going I just meant that it would start a discussion, and I knew some would disagree with me.

I don’t need you to give a fuck as I do not have anything invested in your approval, I just wanted to put it in as you immediately interpreted my comment as ‘I am saying I am trans positive, but actually am not’. But whether you personally accept that is not important to me.

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

I identify as lesbian/bi

I could point out that many lesbians disagree with people identifying both as lesbian and bi, but, hey, I’m not the identity police.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

Shut up, Nicky. We’re cis. Deal with it. We are not the standard from which everyone else deviates.

You know how when white people talk about people of color they tend to say things like, “That black guy” yet when they talk about white folks it’s just, “That guy”? You know how straight people will say, “That gay guy”, but when talking about straight people it’s just, “That guy”?

That’s privilege. That’s what you are displaying here. Check it.

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 years ago

I’d be interested in learning more about people who are incorrectly assigned privilege, though, since the subject came up earlier.

Can anyone suggest any texts or sites on it? I have known a few people who do not identify as white but are often “mistaken” for white and assigned privileges thereof and I’d love some insights into their situation.

And I’m sure plenty of trans people out there are in similar situations as well.

Emilygoddess - WHTM mod
Emilygoddess - WHTM mod
5 years ago

Jarnsaxa, it’s called “passing privilege”, and IDK any specific sites/essays but there’s always Google (super helpful, I know).

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

You could try Googling “passing privilege” maybe? I think there’s some element of passing privilege for atheists and agnostics who are culturally Christian too.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

I’ve seen some pretty hot discussions about “passing privilege”. Basically, there are those who say that it’s no privilege at all to be seen as cis when you’re actually not, because then people don’t see you as who you really are. Others argue that it’s obviously a privilege, since if people assume you’re cis unless you tell them, you won’t face the same kind of discrimination and risk of violence and so on as people who are always perceived as trans by others.
The same thing could be extended to lots of other groups.

I’m bi but passes as straight until I tell people that I’m bi, since I’m married to a man. I’m squarely in the “it’s a privilege” camp. To be blunt, it seems to me that people who deny that it is a privilege to pass as a member of the majority group tend to be pretty young – people who are perceived as “normal young girls” but identify as pansexual and genderqueer. If you’re really young, it might seem more important to you to “be seen as you really are” than to, say, get that job you’re looking for. The older you get, the more mundane stuff becomes important, like getting that job, getting that apartment, and, well, not getting beaten up (I mean, that’s important to everyone, but I think people often become more risk aware as they grow older, while young people sometimes feel invincible unless it’s happened to them personally). And then you appreciate being perceived as “normal”.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Transphobes aren’t welcome here. Fuck off until you stop being a vomitous bigot and read a Goddamn dictionary.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

What many people don’t realize is that Transgenderism is like creationism: inventing false facts that don’t stand up to scrutiny, claiming that science is hateful toward your beliefs, claiming to be persecuted when you can’t force your beliefs on other people, and attempts to silence and destroy non-believers. Transgenderism is a religious cult and in fact that transgender activists are usually pro-prostitution and anti women, lesbian and society.

You know, no matter how hard people like you try to frame your bigotry in terms of “logic” and “science,” the bigotry always eventually bursts out like a hideous moth. There’s no point trying to engage with you or refute anything you say – you’re beyond logic and reason, and also beyond empathy and basic human decency.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Emailing David

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 years ago

Eh. I’m generally averse to blind googles, given the vasty depths of incorrect, bad information out there. But thanks anyway!

I also think anyone who isn’t support of trans folks should find somewhere else to chill.

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

In my opinion cisgender is a slur because it slut shames people who know biology exist and biology is real.

I’m still failing to see how slutshaming gets involved, how’re people being judged/shamed for some percieved sexual immorality by being called cisgender?

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 years ago

SupportIVE. Sorry.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Transgenderism is a religious cult and in fact that transgender activists are usually pro-prostitution and anti women, lesbian and society.

Fuck this and fuck you.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

The fuck is Nicky even trying to say?

“I have no idea about gender theory and I’m trying to pass on my narrow views I made up myself onto you guys? Also trans people are the devil.”

Yes, that sounds right.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

Nicky, everything you just said is total garbage.

Appeal to biology, despite the fact that sex =/= gender
Conspiracy theorism – There is no Trans/Genderqueer cabal.
Trying to be the decider of what is “Normal”, implying that trans folk are not.
Appeal to “common sense”, which is actually not common sense at all, but ignorance.
Misuse of slut-shaming -> words mean things, learn what they are.
Strawmanning – Being Trans is nothing like creationism at all; that is a ridiculous false comparison. Also, Trans activists are not anti-women/lesbian/society. (Many of them ARE women/ lesbians/ members of society.)

Go sit in a corner far away from here and educate yourself. I’ll lend you a torch if it’s too dark inside your ass to read. But most importantly your bigotry is not welcome here.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

The fuck is Nicky even trying to say?

What I mainly got out of it was “trans people creep me out, and I need a sciency-sounding smokescreen to convince myself that this means there is something wrong with them, and not with me.”

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

My husband identifies as queer/bi. I am sure that many people assume that he’s gay, because of the being married to a man situation. If he’d married a woman, they’d probably assume he was straight. Bisexual invisibility – one of the more useless superpowers.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

The key thing to remember is that the term ‘cis’ says nothing about sexuality, it is purely a gender term. It also says nothing about gender expression, whether you express yourself as masculine, feminine, androgenous, etc in public, whatever your ‘real’ gender is.

It is just simply if your mental gender matches your preferred (however you want to express it) gender. Another way of looking at it is; you don’t suffer from any dysphoria and the physical/visual signals you have about your body match your ‘mental map’ of your body.

In my case (and TG people vary greatly of course) my gender dysphoia expresses as a constant mismatch between parts of my body that I feel shouldn’t be there (they just feel wrong) and a constant feeling of missing parts that should be there (for example as a young child I kept searching for a vagina that wasn’t there and couldn’t undertand why I didn’t have one and why I had this ‘thing’).

So no one should over state the term ‘cis’ and load too many meanings into it, as I said just a simple shorthand term that has a very specific meaning. It is useful sometimes because of that, other times not so, such as it is useless when talking about sexuality, because any gender can have any sexuality.