Categories
antifeminism empathy deficit entitled babies gender policing MRA reddit transphobia

Men’s Rights Redditors agree: Trans, intersex and genderqueer folks are silly and annoying and hinder true equality

Men's Rights Activists agree: This room oppresses them
This sign oppresses Men’s Rights Activists

Men’s Rights Redditors agree: it’s tough to be a man. Well, a cis man, in any case. And those silly trans people are making it worse.

On the Men’s Rights subreddit, one concerned fellow has discovered a possibly insurmountable obstacle standing in the way of true gender equality: A “Women’s Room” at the University of Queensland that, as a sign on its door notes, is open to “trans*, intersex and genderqueer people as well as cis-females.” The horror! 

The title of his post: It’s hard to call for equality between genders when stuff like this is so openly accepted by places like Universities.

Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, his post received more than a thousand upvotes, and inspired more than 300 comments. This will give you some of the flavor of the discussion:

Does cis not mean straight? I can't keep up with the bullshit they make up. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]lanternkeeper 40 points 1 day ago  It means a person who identifies as the sex they were born; i.e. a man who is biologically male or a women who is biologically female aka regular people. I kind of feel dirty writing that. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Endless_Summer 44 points 1 day ago  So I was born with a penis, but I can identify as a lesbian woman and be free to use this bathroom? permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]ThePunHunter 43 points 1 day ago  Sure you can, and if people tell you otherwise, just tell 'em to check their privileges (because you have it really bad)! This world, man. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]AlphaBetaOmegaGamma 2 points 1 day ago  So what are you telling me is that SJWs and feminists make up shit to do whatever they want with no consequences? Damn, I'm impressed. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]pepe_le_pewpewpewpew 30 points 1 day ago  Sure, up until you saw this room, your gender was a social construct forced upon you by society, once you saw this sign you realized you were actually a woman all along. As soon as you left, evil social conditioning got the better of you again and you were socially obligated to identify as a man again. Damn you patriarchy! permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Odz2427 1 point 1 day ago  Fuckin' cissy permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]krudler5 6 points 1 day ago  Isn't "cis" a recently-coined term? I can't recall having heard anyone use the term "cis-gender" before the last 3 or 4 years... permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Elvick 11 points 1 day ago  As the "opposite" of transgendered, it certainly is. I learned about Transgendered people in my early teens, I'm 26 now and I only started to hear "cisgendered" because feminists were using it to dismiss and insult men with it. lol The term should die, it serves no purpose other than to shame people. cis2

The lovely DavidByron2 — one of the subreddit’s most, er, colorful commenters — gets nearly 300 upvotes for suggesting that the poor beleaguered cis man who posted the picture should sue the school for sexual harassment. Naturally, this brilliant legal mind doesn’t actually know what cis means; he thinks it means “straight.”

cisbyron

Elsewhere in the comments, one fellow suggests that a cis man should make a point of going into the room and telling anyone who wants him to leave that they’re not allowed to discriminate against their gender identity.

Naturally, others are enthusiastic about this idea.

jimmywiddle 13 points 2 days ago  Me too, I would real world troll the shit out of that room. I would turn up in an elf costume once and claim I identify as elf kind and therefore don't even qualify as human. permalinksaveparentgive gold [–]mariners77 -3 points 1 day ago  And that's why people like you shouldn't be allowed. Nothing wrong with what the parent comment suggested. Go in there, be quiet, and tell people not to assume gender. But trolling just creates more hostilities between sides and makes things worse.

Yes, that’s right: the person suggesting that it might not be such a good idea to put on an elf costume and crash a room intended as a “safer space” for women, trans, intersex and genderqueer folks is the one that’s voted down — though even he thinks that invading the safer space would be just peachy.

Yet another commenter tells someone who identifies as a “gender fluid male,” that he “should go and see a doctor if your genitals are leaking fluid.” The jokester gets upvotes; the gender fluid male, who says he goes to UQ and that he “understands why [the room] exists,” gets downvoted below zero.

And Men’s Rights activists wonder why so many people think of their little movement as a hate movement.

H/T — r/againstmensrights

Subscribe
Notify of
guest

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

231 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@DGL

Well, I never said it was 100% awesome and great portrayal, but I also didn’t I describe every moment with Greg and Terry (because there’s a lot) and I also didn’t explain the whole episodes because the show concentrates most on Stan learning a lesson but I’ll explain the episodes in more detail because they aren’t as bad as you probably think they are maybe.

After the Republican Convention refuses to pick Stan he is actually approved by the Log Cabin Republicans to speak at the convention on their behalf (because they thought he was gay after accidentally depicting Lincoln and his bodyguard pretty much in love). However, they soon find out that Stan actually hosted several “gay people are the devil” types of fundraisers thingies and they kick them out. Stan decides that the only way he’s going to be able to speak for the Log Cabin Republicans is if he turns gay. Since Terry and Greg are on a break, Stan decides to take Terry on a date but for some reason Stan isn’t into it. Then Stan figures out that being gay isn’t a choice; he then crashes the Republican Convention, which was barring the Log Cabin Republicans out, and gives a speech that explains that Stan tried being gay but he just couldn’t do it, so he convinces the Republican Convention to actually let the Log Cabin Republicans in by saying (paraphrasing) “gay people don’t choose to be gay, but they did choose to be Republican, even though Republicans are awful to gay people; besides, all this hate towards gay people can be directed at Democrats!” There was cheering. The episode aired back in 2006.

Then the baby episode. When Stan figures out that Greg and Terry are going to have a baby, Stan freaks out because he doesn’t believe that gay couples should have kids. Once the baby is born, he kidnaps their daughter and decides to go to Nebraska to give the child up to adoption. Stan, being chased by pretty much everyone because he fucking kidnaps a baby, takes refuge at a farm which turns out to be run by a lesbian couple with two kids. Stan also kidnaps those kids, saying they’d never grow up normal, which the kids of course argue with him about. After several questions asking what they would do without a dad (“where will you learn how to throw a football?””my football coach“”who’s going to lift you onto their shoulders so you can see the parade?””my mom is 6’2 in heels” that schtick), Stan figures out that children raised by gay couples are normal, so he returns the children and Greg and Terry get their baby back. They also get a restraining order against Stan. The episode aired in 2007.

Then the dad episode. Terry is still hasn’t told his dad he’s gay, and once Stan gets tired of Greg (who is irritable since he was kicked out of his own home and shit), Stan gets drunk and outs Terry to his father. Terry and Terry’s father aren’t happy and Stan tries to make it up by destroying all the wisdom he’s learned about gay people to him with no success (character growth, woo). Near the end, Stan tries to guilt trip Terry’s father into accepting him by saying he was gay at an awards assembly for Terry’s dad’s achievement. Terry finally stands up and states that he’s gay, he has a family, and he’d like his father to be apart of it, but his father refuses, saying he can’t accept it. It didn’t work and Terry is rightfully upset about it being public. It ends with Francine trying to defend Stan but Greg and Terry take none of it. The episode aired in 2009.

They aren’t perfect, yeah, but at least American Dad gets some sort of positive message out there in a better way than Family Guy. There are definitely still problems, with Rodger happening to be a big, constant offender, however.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

Oh, one thing I forgot. Greg tries to convince Terry to come out to his father, but Terry chickens out at the last second, which is another reason why Greg was rather upset about the situation,

talbotfish
talbotfish
5 years ago

“Cis” “Cisgender” are sexist and not feminist terms in my opinion
They naturalize and erase the gender system by which males maintain domination of females in patriarchy.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

… The hell does “Not-trans” have to do with erasing patriarchy? o_O

gilshalos
5 years ago

OK, I learnt the term ‘cis’ or ‘cisgendered’ here. And I find it a handy shortcut to say what I am. Even though I am not feminine by most standards, I am cis female.
If it is truly offensive, I will use another term, if one is suggested.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

I like “cisgendered” for the same reasons that M, spindrift and tes identified. I have linguistic issues with the abbreviation “cis”, but I accept that other people’s gender identities come ahead of my desire to preserve Latin prefixes.

mayimoktoo
mayimoktoo
5 years ago

Radfems: Straight men will use trans issues to enter women’s safe spaces!
Trans: Oh that’s never gonna happen!
Straight dudes: Hey look! Loophole to go into women’s spaces and be an asshole! Sweet!

We need gender neutral bathrooms in addition to women’s rooms. Personally, I’d like to see them also be family rooms so that dads have a place to deal with diapers, sticky little hands and whatnot.

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

“Cis” “Cisgender” are sexist and not feminist terms in my opinion
They naturalize and erase the gender system

As in… cisgender? Isn’t it necessary that a gender system exists in the first place for someone to be trans- or cisgender? How is it erasing the gender system?

andiexist
andiexist
5 years ago

@talbotfish

Um, no? Expanding society’s idea of what gender is can only help feminism. Breaking down gender roles includes breaking down the idea that genitals determine gender.

@may

Indeed, there are dudebros who would use it as an excuse, and that doesn’t mean that transgender people should be denied the right to use the restroom of/enter safe spaces for their gender. If someone just goes in, doesn’t make a disruption, and leaves, then it doesn’t actually matter what gender they identify as or what genitals they have. If someone goes in and makes a disruption… guess what! It also doesn’t matter, because they’re being disruptive either way.

Also, there are two reasons dudebros could have for going in:

1) Make a big deal about being a cis guy (which would get them kicked out.)

2) applies only to bathrooms, changing rooms, and such: spy on women in states of undress. If the issue is “they might want to see naked women” then you’ll have to ban lesbians, bi women, pan women, et cetera. If the issue is “they might attempt to hit on naked women” then see #1 about them being kicked out.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

Personally, I do find gender norms and gender expectations of our cultures to be generally pretty toxic, and I would like it if gender stopped being a big part of society as a whole. That said, I think appropriate gender labels are important for a lot of people to come to terms with their identity. Having vocabulary for the gender identities that people have beyond ‘normal’ and ‘abnormal’, is incredibly important in challenging some of the current and toxic gender expectations in our society and allowing marginalized people a better voice with which to communicate and express themselves. It allows for better understanding and less dehumanization, which is a goal that feminism should absolutely be behind.

Working to dismantle the system of gender expectations is well and good, but telling people who are most disadvantaged by the current system that they cannot make any changes themselves isn’t progressive at all. And it’s easy for people who have privilege and are seen as the default to talk about how labels shouldn’t matter, we don’t need to talk about this any more (see: White people who claim to not see colour).

It’s like how I view marriage (as it stands as currently as government-sanctioned and religious thing) as a kind of outdated and problematic thing on account of it allowing the government to make calls on and give special legitimacy to certain individual and interpersonal relationships. It places great importance on monogamous, generally heterosexual, romantic and sexual relationships and minimizes any platonic or non-monogamous relationships as lesser or undesirable. But I absolutely support marriage equality, because marriage isn’t going to go away any time soon and denying it to only select and already marginalized people will do absolutely nothing to make the institution less problematic, and is purely an act of discrimination, not protest against a flawed system.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

AFAIK, it’s pretty much a non-problem that cis men go into women’s restrooms, changing rooms and so on claiming to be trans women. I’m not saying it has never ever happened, only it’s not really something that happens on a regular basis.
On the other hand, it does happen on a regular basis that trans people get harassed simply because they wanna use public rest rooms.

Even if it was a big problem with cis men going into women’s restrooms claiming to be trans women, saying that everyone must use the restroom corresponding to the gender they were assigned at birth wouldn’t solve this problem. Said cis dudes could then keep going into women’s restroom claiming to be trans men (it’s not like the women there are gonna be able to check these dudes birth certificates or anything).

Personally, I think gender neutral restrooms are the best. I’ve done a fair bit of flying during the last year, and I noticed that in much of Arlanda Airport there are only gender neutral restrooms (obvs stalls only, no urinars (urinar? Is that the word in English? Hope you know what I mean, the place where dudes are supposed to stand next to each other and take a piss)). I never saw this leading to any kind of problem. People just go in there and do their business, end of story.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Dvärghundspossen

We call them “urinals”.

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

@Pandapool

You mean, the cis men?

http://i58.tinypic.com/2z9baqe.gif

katz
5 years ago

You mean, the cis men?

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

I think it’s important to point out, that just because a woman is not trans, does not necessarily means she is cis. If a woman is repudiating society’s gender roles, AND fighting them with every ounce of her being, AND she is telling you on no uncertain terms that she is not cisgendered, AND she is telling you that calling her cisgendered is a blatant disregard for who she is as a person; then she is not cisgendered.

Perhaps she’s agendered, ambigendered, or gender neutral; and she may even want to discuss it and keep it to herself. The point is, it’s never a good idea to call someone something that they are not, and keep calling them that without regard to her human right to define herself.

That’s why gender fluidity needs to have distinctions. Just like not everyone is either gay or straight, not everyone is trans or cis.

@gilshalos:

OK, I learnt the term ‘cis’ or ‘cisgendered’ here. And I find it a handy shortcut to say what I am. Even though I am not feminine by most standards, I am cis female.
If it is truly offensive, I will use another term, if one is suggested.

I don’t know if it’s offensive, if it fits who you are and you feel comfortable using it, it’s ultimately your decision.

If you don’t feel it quite describes you, then you could look into words that fall under the umbrella of genderqueer.

tesformes
5 years ago

But I don’t see how that makes cis an offensive or problematic term. Nobody was saying that trans and cis are the only possible states of being, we’re all aware that gender and sex aren’t actually binaries, but the people complaining about being called cis generaly do so because they don’t like the idea of their “default” status being treated like “others.” There still hasn’t been an argument for why “normal” (ugh) people shouldn’t have a term to describe their gender expression.

epitome of incomprehensibility

Even if it was a big problem with cis men going into women’s restrooms claiming to be trans women, saying that everyone must use the restroom corresponding to the gender they were assigned at birth wouldn’t solve this problem. Said cis dudes could then keep going into women’s restroom claiming to be trans men (it’s not like the women there are gonna be able to check these dudes birth certificates or anything).

Good point.

Tyra Lith
Tyra Lith
5 years ago

@tresformers:
I don’t know, I certainly don’t feel comfortable with being called “cis” and this doesn’t have anything to do with not liking the idea of losing a “default status”.
it’s more like, I really have a problem with society’s gender roles and even though I perform femininity in a few ways I do not do so because I somehow have a sort of connection with “being a woman” but because I have limited energy and feel like I have to pick my battles. Being a woman is of course an important part of my identity because being read as a woman influences how people treat me and so on, but it does not mean more than that to me.
You are right that nobod was saying that trans and cis are the only possible states of being but I think that in most cases when those words are used it is assumed that you are either trans or cis. And being automatically sorted into the “cis” box because I am not trans just doesn’t feel right to me.

Tyra Lith
Tyra Lith
5 years ago

Please let me know if there was anything offensive in my comment, by the way! I know that I am not perfectly informed about trans issues and I don’t want to offend or hurt anyone.

LBT
LBT
5 years ago

See, shit like this is why I just wish there were more gender-neutral bathrooms. Except apparently people flip their shit about that too. I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO FUCKING PISS.

RE: talbotfish

“Cis” “Cisgender” are sexist and not feminist terms in my opinion
They naturalize and erase the gender system by which males maintain domination of females in patriarchy.

Ah, good to see you’re one of those assholes who think trans people enforce gender oppression. Go fuck yourself.

RE: Tyra Lith

Being a woman is of course an important part of my identity because being read as a woman influences how people treat me and so on, but it does not mean more than that to me.

Yes, but the thing is… you get cis privilege, even so. You don’t get harassed in bathrooms–or have to agonize about where you’re going to go and plan it out ahead of time. You aren’t afraid of someone calling you transphobic slurs and attacking or killing you because of that. You aren’t afraid of losing your job and or housing because someone finds out you’re not entirely comfortable with gender.

I do. I know trans people who’ve been pushed into sex work, unemployement, disownment, and homelessness because they’re trans. If being forced under a label like ‘cis’ makes you uncomfortable, how do you think I feel being tagged with ‘trans’ for life? It’s not exactly a label I CHOSE. It’s what society has forced upon me, and makes me pay for.

Tyra Lith
Tyra Lith
5 years ago

@LBT:
I know. I know I do have privilege because I am not trans. I hate that people have to go through all of what you listed just because a huge part of society thinks there is no problem with making them suffer or even killing them – just because they are who they are. it is awful and it should not be like that.
I just wanted to voice my personal feelings concerning the “cis” label. I didn’t mean to downplay any of what you/trans people are going through because of their identity and I apologize if it did come across that way.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

we’re all aware that gender and sex aren’t actually binaries, but the people complaining about being called cis generaly do so because they don’t like the idea of their “default” status being treated like “others.”

I disagree. I see the treatment of gender variant women as a lot like how people treat asexuality or pansexuality in the discussion of sexual orientation. It’s almost non-existent. People acknowledge that there’s more than just trans/cis but political dialogue almost always completely excludes it.

Even your comment defaults back to “women who say they aren’t cis actually are, they just don’t want to lose their default status.” That’s exactly the problem here – you’re labeling someone despite her telling you who she is.

Again: if a woman says she’s not cisgendered, and she’s doing obvious stuff that doesn’t conform to gender roles, then she’s not cisgendered. We can debate back and forth with this for hours, but the fact remains – it’s up to her to decide who she is, not us.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

@Tyra Lith, you’re fine. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to be called something that doesn’t apply to you.

There is also a term I’ve heard of, called “passing privilege” or “person of passing privilege.” This has been used for race as well as gender status.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Nameless Wonder

But Tyra Lith says she’s comfortable being a woman and was born a woman, isn’t that, like, what cisgendered is? It’s like the Honey Badgers saying they’re transgendered because they aren’t super feminine. Is it okay for them to identify as transgender if they say they aren’t cisgendered?

There’s a difference between being uncomfortable with a label because it doesn’t describe who you are and just not like a label because it involves “gendered” things. Being a ciswoman has nothing to do with being feminine, which is what Tyra Lith is saying having the label “cis” is.

it’s more like, I really have a problem with society’s gender roles and even though I perform femininity in a few ways I do not do so because I somehow have a sort of connection with “being a woman” but because I have limited energy and feel like I have to pick my battles. Being a woman is of course an important part of my identity because being read as a woman influences how people treat me and so on, but it does not mean more than that to me.

It sounds like she’s comfortable being a woman and was a born a woman thus she is cis. That doesn’t mean she has to “perform femininity”, it just means she’s fine with having a vagina and being labeled a woman.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

I always understood it like this: does your gender match your body? If not, then you aren’t cisgendered.

Examples: cross dressers are gender variant, but they have no problem with the bodies they are born into. Therefore, they are not trans. Does that make them cisgendered or immune to the problems trans people face? Nope.

RedFox
RedFox
5 years ago

I know there a lot of people who claim that “tumblr types” actually call people “cis-scum”.. I don’t see how that would make any sense, and it makes me wonder if these people even know what it means.

I certain it was meant to be parody by ignorant people, then other ignorant people came to think it was fact. Generally when people complain about “tumblr types” and “tumblr feminism” it’s just shorthand for something like “progressive people I don’t like.”

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Nameless Wonder

I always figured it was this way:

Cisgendered – You were born with a set of genitals and are okay being labeled by them; a cisman is a man born with a penis and is okay being called a man, a ciswoman is a woman born with a vagina and is okay being called a woman.

Transgendered – You were born with a set of genitals but not okay being labeled by those genitals; a transwoman is a woman that wasn’t born with a vagina; a transman is a man born without a penis.

Genderfluid – You were born with a set of genitals but sometimes don’t being labeled by them. Genderfluid peeps can be a man, woman, neither, both, whatever.

Agendered (I think it’s called?) – You were born with a set of genitals but you don’t feel like any gender. You may have a penis, but you don’t identify as a man and you don’t want to be called a woman or whatever.

Annnnd that’s really all the labels I know.

These labels have nothing to do with society’s standards on what femininity is or what masculinity is, because if that were the case, we wouldn’t have all these labels. I’m about as unfeminine as a person can get but I’m still a ciswoman.

Tyra Lith
Tyra Lith
5 years ago

@Nameless Wonder: Thank you.

@Pandapool:
Maybe I didn’t express myself very well. I didn’t mean to say that the term “woman” only applies to people who are born a woman and who are everything considered feminine.
Yes, I am fine with the sex of the body I was born into. I am pretty sure I would also be fine with having a penis. I was brought up as a girl/woman and this means that I have learnt what is generally expected of women. I go along with some of it because I have to in order not to face the social consequences because I am not (yet) ready for them.
Being labeled a woman is not something that is important to me and with society’s gender roles it means I have to adapt certain behaviours, but at the moment it is easier for me to just conform as far as I have to than face the consequences of not doing so.
In your last comment, what exactly did you mean by “don’t identify as a man[/woman]”? what does not identifying as a man or woman mean if it doesn’t have anything to do with society’s standards?

I guess I have a lot of reading up to do on some topics…

LBT
LBT
5 years ago

RE: RedFox

Oh god, the cis scum thing. *sighs, rubs forehead* Okay, so here’s the story about the infamous ‘die cis scum’ thing.

There was a trans person on tumblr named charthebutcher. From what little I recall, pretty hardcore, had been assaulted multiple times due to being trans in the past, etc. They started the whole ‘die cis scum’ thing because when cis people were like, “That makes me really uncomfortable,” they could respond, “Good. Now you know how I feel ALL THE FUCKING TIME. The only difference is: I’m way more likely to be the one who actually gets killed by the person screaming it at me.”

It then blew up into this big fucking thing where a bunch of people took this to mean that all trans people hated cis people and this was terrible, and a bunch of angry trans people started using it as a slogan, and I just watched the whole thing and felt my head ache.

So yes, the cis scum thing is actually a thing, and I’ve personally witnessed it online. The way I figure, bullies are bullies, and they just LOVE the idea of being able to use something to hurt others and claim they’re justified in it. And on tumblr, it has become fairly infamous of people using social justice rhetoric to justify any shitty thing they ever do.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

A quote that I think is relevant to highlight from Tyra Lith:

I do not do so because I somehow have a sort of connection with “being a woman” but because I have limited energy and feel like I have to pick my battles.

As someone with health problems, I completely understand this.

Our appearance is how we share ourselves with the world. All gender variant people at one time or another, have to choose whether it’s worth the cost to present as who we are, or fly under the radar. Arguably, trans people have it the worst; but does that mean people with passing privilege are cisgendered? I don’t think so.

Feminising a little to avoid conflict is not the same as being comfortable with one’s assigned gender. It’s a coping mechanism.

LBT
LBT
5 years ago

RE: Tyra Lith

what does not identifying as a man or woman mean if it doesn’t have anything to do with society’s standards?

That’s the hilarious thing: it’s entirely up to you.

For instance, being male is a totally meaningless identifier to me… but it’s still MASSIVELY IMPORTANT. I’ve tried to talk myself out of being male for years, and have always failed. It has nothing to do with the body I’m in, nothing to do with social role or presentation… it’s a totally meaningless, empty category, which I still feel absolutely assured that I belong in. *spreads hands* Gender is WEIRD.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

In your last comment, what exactly did you mean by “don’t identify as a man[/woman]”? what does not identifying as a man or woman mean if it doesn’t have anything to do with society’s standards?

You just don’t feel like either. It has nothing really to do with society’s standards, you just don’t feel like you’re either man or woman. The labels I mentioned aren’t just something for western standards but any cultural standard.

For instance, in one culture perhaps the feminine people are expected to stay home but in another the feminine people are expected to be the breadwinner. However, four transwoman, two from each culture, handle this expectation differently. One transwoman embraces staying at home with a family, another rallies against staying home; one transwoman loves being able to do what society expects of her, another would rather spend time with her family. Just because they’re going with or going against a society standard doesn’t detract from the fact that they are transwomen.

It’s pretty much the same for any label. Just because you may or may not conform to some standard in society doesn’t mean you are that. Is a plumber a man by default, no matter the actual gender the plumber identifies as? No. There are ciswoman, transwoman, transman, cisman, whoever plumbers even if the profession is considered “masculine”.

Labels like this don’t “conform” to any sort of standard society wants from them, it’s just a way to define ourselves and help other define us. The labels don’t hurt us, it’s the standard society puts on those labels that do. Embracing a label and doing whatever you want because you personally want to do it and not because it’s what society expects is about a gender-role breaking as you can get.

Luzbelitx
5 years ago

Gender is WEIRD.

Indeed.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

@pandapool, if you identify as a cis than I respect that as I would someone who identifies as trans. All I’m asking is for the same respect to be granted to gender variant people who do not identify as cis. If they don’t identify as cis, there’s probably a good reason for it just as someone who identifies as trans.

Also, I am in total agreement that being cis should not be viewed as the default person, and it’s part of the reason I’m not comfortable defaulting people with passing privilege as cis.

Gender is fluid, and it is a spectrum. Yes, it is weird and absolutely worth trying to find out how it defines us as people.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Nameless Wonder

What other label is there for someone who is born with a vagina but is okay being called a woman?

Admittedly, I don’t know if I’m really a cis-ciswoman, you know? Sometimes I just don’t feel like any gender at all (sometimes even a little more masculine), but I’m alright being labeled as a ciswoman just because i was born with a vagina. Genderfluid doesn’t feel right to me but I know “cis’ isn’t absolutely perfect either, it’s just the one I’m most comfortable with that I know of.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

It might be under the umbrella of genderqueer. Also, if your gender tends to change you might be ambigendered, like being ambidextrous able to use both hands, but with gender you are able to utilize all gendered traits or don’t need any at all. Bigendered would be identifying both male and female at any time or at the same time. Then there’s pangendered, third gendered ect.

I knew a gay man who was technically bisexual, but because he preferred male partners, he identified as gay. So it could be you feel mostly cis, instinctively identify as cis, but have elements of gender variance as well. If you feel something is not quite right, then I’d definitely take some time to understand why.

I think gender and sexuality are visceral – they are something you instinctively know, more or less. It can be a lifelong process, and it might even change. Only you can know for sure, though.

Nicky
5 years ago

As an Intersex person I can attest to the fact that many Intersex people and those who have Intersex conditions really do get pissed off and hate it when Trans and genderqueer people try to use Intersex people to justify their arguments to people. I have see many Trans & genderqueers who try to use intersex as a gotcha in an argument. It’s nothing more than a red herring. It’s why Intersex people are not happy with the fact that their community is being used to justify another community, which has nothing to do with them.

Bryce
Bryce
5 years ago

I’m sure this comment will be torn apart, but I doubt unisex bathrooms will ever become widespread, for the simple reason that sharing facilities with members of the group you’re attracted to isn’t appealing – not because the opposite sex is gross or alien or anything, but in terms of the context in which we are seen, by them. It’s an issue of privacy. I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing a no.2 while women walk in and out.

I’ve no idea how gay men feel, but I’d hazard a guess they’re also a stage more uneasy than the rest of us.

Bryce
Bryce
5 years ago

Just realized how quaint and unintentionally funny that sounds, given how people have been discussing the semantics of gender terms and at length.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
5 years ago

I was in a co-ed dorm in college, where my hall shared a bathroom; toilet and shower. Somehow we survived this horrendously awkward situation.

It’s all a matter of what you’re used to. One year of unisex bathrooms and nobody will be thinking twice about it.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Nameless Wonder

Thanks you for the link. It lead me to androgyny. And, whoa, there a whole lot of androgyny specs out there.

When I look in the mirror, sometimes I see a rather androgynous face, nothing too feminine or too masculine about it, although sometimes I see a woman. I very, very rarely see a man even though I feel a little masculine sometimes. But I don’t necessarily “feel” more, I just am more? It’s not that I feel more masculine or feminine at times, I just am? Like, it not something that changing, per se, but always there. Like how a beetle shell is always iridescent no matter the angle or amount of light. It sounds a little weird but it’s the right way to describe it.

So I googled “androgyny” and I found gender.wikia.com.

Under androgyny, they have femandrogyne, which is when you’re androgynous but you feel slightly more feminine. I feel feminine more often than I feel non-gendered or masculine. This sounds like a much better label for me than ciswoman, but I rather like the ciswoman more because I am a woman, but I am more than that sometimes. Maybe, something more like androgynous ciswoman.

I’m not exactly sure about this though. It feels like I’m co-opting something. I really need to mull this around a little more.

But I really appreciate this. It opened my eyes to something I wasn’t quite sure was there.

I’m also really sorry to Tyra Lith.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

Eh, unisex bathrooms wouldn’t bother me. Though if there were urinals instead of just stalls I might be a little uncomfortable, I’ll be honest. And the dudes might be confused by the weird little boxes they strap to the walls of the stalls.

…On that topic, damn, what do trans men do with their menstrual stuff? I suppose it’s only really a problem for the ones who aren’t on testosterone, which I believe stops all that nasty business, but still. Not having that available has got to suck.

One more reason for unisex washrooms I suppose.

gilshalos
5 years ago

Damn, my comment got lost (or maybe it will be repeated). I say I am cis but I only ever felt female when I was in bed with a guy. 90% of the time I feel gender neutral. And I haven’t slept with anyone for about 10 years. Does that make me something other than cis ? I don’t want to claim a gender identity if I don’t belong to it.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

Anywhere that has only one toilet/ bathroom has a unisex bathroom. Like most small cafes, or my house. I don’t know why people get weirded out by this – everyone queues outside, the stall itself is totally closed off… it’s just… the easiest arrangement in the world. And there’s no opportunity for anything “untoward”, so that counter-argument is utter bullshit.

Interesting about the discussion on the word “cis”.
I’m personally comfortable being described as a cis woman. I can understand the pitfall of applying the “cis” label to people without checking if they’re cool with it, but I have come across quite a few people getting angry about it being “a slur”, which is just not true.

(Beloved next to me argues that anything is a slur if the recipient takes it as one, but I think to be a slur, historical context has to taken into account, so I will never consider “cis” to be a slur).

I take “cis” to mean that I was born with female sex characteristics, feel “womanly” on an intuitive level, was raised within the social framework of being “a girl”, and I present myself as generally feminine, without really giving a second thought to my gender identity.
Like, if I was one of those toys where you twist the blocks to jumble up the picture, my head (socialisation), torso (intuitive gender “feeling”), crotch (sex organs), and legs (trousers/ skirt – i.e. gender presentation) would all match up. Nobody would think anything was incongruent about my gender.

Is that a good analogy, or no? It’s probably not perfect, but I hope it makes sense.

I think being able to define oneself outside, or in relation to the gender binary is a positive step towards dismantling the binary altogether. So I see any discussion of what it means to be genderqueer, or trans, or neutrois or any gender identity to be generally A Good Thing for Feminism. But most of all, it’s a good thing for the people who want to define their own identities, and who need and deserve liberation just like everyone marginalised by the Kyriarchy.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Even your comment defaults back to “women who say they aren’t cis actually are, they just don’t want to lose their default status.” That’s exactly the problem here – you’re labeling someone despite her telling you who she is.

Again: if a woman says she’s not cisgendered, and she’s doing obvious stuff that doesn’t conform to gender roles, then she’s not cisgendered. We can debate back and forth with this for hours, but the fact remains – it’s up to her to decide who she is, not us.

I think Tes was talking only about people who do identify as “Not-trans” but don’t like the word “Cis” because [insert transphobic crap here], not people who identify as nonbinary/variant or people who are questioning their identity, since the conversation was only about the former at the time. ^^;

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

@gilshalos

Damn, my comment got lost (or maybe it will be repeated). I say I am cis but I only ever felt female when I was in bed with a guy. 90% of the time I feel gender neutral. And I haven’t slept with anyone for about 10 years. Does that make me something other than cis ? I don’t want to claim a gender identity if I don’t belong to it.

Think I’ve heard of something called “situational genderfluid”, someone who’s gender shifts based on environment and circumstances, or something like that. That might fit if you feel agender most of the time but feel female when in bed with a man. Hope that was helpful, I’m not an expert on any of this stuff. Ultimately it’s your call what lable you feel fits you best.

Bryce
Bryce
5 years ago

@AltoFronto

As you say, that’s a single, closed off toilet/bathroom, not something that’s practical for large office building, for example.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

A gender-neutral multi-stall bathroom would be pretty much the same deal – closed stalls that can be used by anyone. I don’t see why it’s any different if there is a shared sink area, as long as everyone is doing their business in a closed stall anyway.

It would just look like a women’s bathroom.
I’ve never understood why urinals even exist, to be honest. *shrug*

But all bathrooms might as well already be gender-neutral, in the strictly practical sense, in that each binary toilet gets used by people of various genders at some point anyway, because folk have to pee somewhere.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

I think it’s not always up to the person the label is applied to to decide whether it’s a slur or not, and I don’t think that people always without exception has the right to decide which words apply to them. Because at the end of the day, words mean things. If you’re a woman who was born with a vagina and assigned female at birth, then you’re a cis woman by definition. Sure, it’s you’re right to say “wait! I’m not actually a woman. I’m an agender person” or whatever. But you can’t say “Yep, I’m a woman, born with a vagina, have always been a woman legally speaking, but I’m not cis!” – because that’s just what cis means. It’s just like you can’t say “yep, I’m hired by this coffee shop to ask people what they want to order and then bring their coffee and cakes to their tables, but I’m not a waitress!” – because that’s just what waitress means.

Furthermore, I’ve come across female feminists who go on and on about how much they hate men, I’ve come across homosexuals who go on about how much they hate straights, and trans people who go on about how much they hate cis people and so on. It’s a trend among a certain segment (usually pretty young) of the social justice group right now – if you really hate the group that is privileged over your own group, that goes to show that you’re a really passionate social justice person, and that you don’t try to “suck up” to the oppressors. So people end up almost boasting about how much they hate men/straight people/cis people/etc. I really, really dislike this trend. But it doesn’t mean that we should do away with terms like “cis”, “hetero” or “man” for that matter, or that these terms have now become slurs.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

A gender-neutral multi-stall bathroom would be pretty much the same deal – closed stalls that can be used by anyone. I don’t see why it’s any different if there is a shared sink area, as long as everyone is doing their business in a closed stall anyway.

That’s the arrangement at Arlanda airport that I talked about further up the thread. For most of the airport there are only gender neutral restrooms, a long row of stalls and then a shared sink area.

Also, I just remember they have the same arrangement at Stockholm Central Station.

It’s no problem, really.