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Men’s Rights Redditors agree: Trans, intersex and genderqueer folks are silly and annoying and hinder true equality

Men's Rights Activists agree: This room oppresses them
This sign oppresses Men’s Rights Activists

Men’s Rights Redditors agree: it’s tough to be a man. Well, a cis man, in any case. And those silly trans people are making it worse.

On the Men’s Rights subreddit, one concerned fellow has discovered a possibly insurmountable obstacle standing in the way of true gender equality: A “Women’s Room” at the University of Queensland that, as a sign on its door notes, is open to “trans*, intersex and genderqueer people as well as cis-females.” The horror! 

The title of his post: It’s hard to call for equality between genders when stuff like this is so openly accepted by places like Universities.

Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, his post received more than a thousand upvotes, and inspired more than 300 comments. This will give you some of the flavor of the discussion:

Does cis not mean straight? I can't keep up with the bullshit they make up. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]lanternkeeper 40 points 1 day ago  It means a person who identifies as the sex they were born; i.e. a man who is biologically male or a women who is biologically female aka regular people. I kind of feel dirty writing that. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Endless_Summer 44 points 1 day ago  So I was born with a penis, but I can identify as a lesbian woman and be free to use this bathroom? permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]ThePunHunter 43 points 1 day ago  Sure you can, and if people tell you otherwise, just tell 'em to check their privileges (because you have it really bad)! This world, man. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]AlphaBetaOmegaGamma 2 points 1 day ago  So what are you telling me is that SJWs and feminists make up shit to do whatever they want with no consequences? Damn, I'm impressed. permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]pepe_le_pewpewpewpew 30 points 1 day ago  Sure, up until you saw this room, your gender was a social construct forced upon you by society, once you saw this sign you realized you were actually a woman all along. As soon as you left, evil social conditioning got the better of you again and you were socially obligated to identify as a man again. Damn you patriarchy! permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Odz2427 1 point 1 day ago  Fuckin' cissy permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]krudler5 6 points 1 day ago  Isn't "cis" a recently-coined term? I can't recall having heard anyone use the term "cis-gender" before the last 3 or 4 years... permalinkembedsaveparentgive gold [–]Elvick 11 points 1 day ago  As the "opposite" of transgendered, it certainly is. I learned about Transgendered people in my early teens, I'm 26 now and I only started to hear "cisgendered" because feminists were using it to dismiss and insult men with it. lol The term should die, it serves no purpose other than to shame people. cis2

The lovely DavidByron2 — one of the subreddit’s most, er, colorful commenters — gets nearly 300 upvotes for suggesting that the poor beleaguered cis man who posted the picture should sue the school for sexual harassment. Naturally, this brilliant legal mind doesn’t actually know what cis means; he thinks it means “straight.”

cisbyron

Elsewhere in the comments, one fellow suggests that a cis man should make a point of going into the room and telling anyone who wants him to leave that they’re not allowed to discriminate against their gender identity.

Naturally, others are enthusiastic about this idea.

jimmywiddle 13 points 2 days ago  Me too, I would real world troll the shit out of that room. I would turn up in an elf costume once and claim I identify as elf kind and therefore don't even qualify as human. permalinksaveparentgive gold [–]mariners77 -3 points 1 day ago  And that's why people like you shouldn't be allowed. Nothing wrong with what the parent comment suggested. Go in there, be quiet, and tell people not to assume gender. But trolling just creates more hostilities between sides and makes things worse.

Yes, that’s right: the person suggesting that it might not be such a good idea to put on an elf costume and crash a room intended as a “safer space” for women, trans, intersex and genderqueer folks is the one that’s voted down — though even he thinks that invading the safer space would be just peachy.

Yet another commenter tells someone who identifies as a “gender fluid male,” that he “should go and see a doctor if your genitals are leaking fluid.” The jokester gets upvotes; the gender fluid male, who says he goes to UQ and that he “understands why [the room] exists,” gets downvoted below zero.

And Men’s Rights activists wonder why so many people think of their little movement as a hate movement.

H/T — r/againstmensrights

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Crip Dyke
5 years ago

@Sarity:

To forget the important parts of evolutionary theory, redneckCryonicist would have to have learned the important parts of evolutionary theory in the first place. I was wondering if this was likely ever to have happened for RNC…

…But my Magic 8-Ball said, “Are you fucking kidding me?”

megpie71
5 years ago

If they’re going to be protesting against the women’s room as not being a space they’re allowed into, then surely they’ve also reason to protest against things like staff rooms, student common rooms reserved to students of certain disciplines and so on? I mean, they’re being excluded from those spaces too – by reason of not being staff at the university, or not being a student in a particular discipline. Heck, they could get all upset because they’re being excluded from the student spaces at UQ by virtue of not being students there or not even being on the same damn continent and it’d have the same amount of moral force and justification.

Again, guys, what is it you want, and why do you think this particular tantrum is going to get it for you?

(Oh, and some Australian translations for our USAlien friends:

Toilet: room with stalls and sinks (and in the male version, urinals) designed for the purpose of elimination of bodily wastes.

Women’s Room: a space (usually peculiar to university settings) set aside as a “safe space” for women. Definition of “women” varies depending on how TERF-infested the women’s (student) collective at the university is this year. I have seen some where it’s “wombyn born wombyn only”. (Yes, it’s possible to lack a dick and yet be a dick).

Does this clear up the issue for our American friends?)

Johanna Roberts
5 years ago

@RNC “organic sexual hierarchy” is one of the bullshit reasons assholes like to think my son isn’t a real man so please take that attitude and shove it. Who knows, it may dislodge your head from your ass in the process but I’m not holding my breath.

misseb47
misseb47
5 years ago

Crip Dyke-“When you complain that George fucking Miller doesn’t know anything about Mad Max, you’ve hit the mantle: even if you wanted to dig yourself a deeper hole, it’s just not possible.”

Yep, they have really hit rock bottom there. The ignorance of these people is astounding. Anyone else would have at least done a quick qoogle search on the background of this film to get the basic facts straight before spouting such crap. But this is way too difficult for them.

“the First Amendment in US jurisprudence doesn’t protect you from being fired by your private employer.”

Exactly. Even if this did happen in America, they still would have been fired. The First Amendment does not give people the right to behave like misogynistic arseholes with impunity. And it sure as hell does not protect people from being fired by their employer. Especially when something like this is caught on camera. I mean, it is just as incriminating as DNA and fingerprints. They were not fired for exercising free speech as part of some governmental conspiracy. They were fired because they were being drunk, misogynistic bunch of douchecanoes harassing a woman just trying to do her job. Their actions reflected badly on the company and their behavior indicated that they could not be trusted to work along side female colleagues (or anyone for that matter). As you know, many/most (if not all) companies and business have anti-harassment and anti-bullying regulations that (at least in theory) protect employees from being the victims of sexual, religious, racial, homophobic and transphobic harassment/bullying. It makes me wonder if these MRAs consider this an affront on the right to free speech. Probably.

“It’s not like they think US law applies everywhere…

…because they don’t even know US law. They think that What They Want For Themselves is protected by the constitution, because isn’t that what constitutions are for?

Nothing to do with the law, everything to do with entitlement.”

Absolutely.

Bryce
Bryce
5 years ago

There was a women’s space on campus – apparently it was empty most of the time, but was kept open by the student union for the sake of women who had experienced past or ongoing harassment, sexual assault etc. Got to wonder about the kind of people who would begrudge others that.

Lady Mondegreen
5 years ago

I hate to break it to redneckcryonicist, but claiming that we evolved to do something does not mean that we should do it. That would be the fallacious Appeal to Nature.

I further hate (wink) to be the one to tell him, but he’s (surprise!) just wrong.

Science says women and men apparently evolved to be equals, RNC. Cry me a river.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/14/early-men-women-equal-scientists

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

RNC, you seem to have forgotten the part about evolution where things CHANGE. And where things continue to change, and adapt with changing environments.

No, no, no, you’re getting it all wrong. Evolution means that the way things are right now (or were previously, at least in the fevered imaginings of ignorant misogynistic pissbabies) are the way that things should always and have always been, because they were made perfect and are thus ‘natural’.

Just like how ‘freedom of speech’ means that these dudebros are allowed to say and do literally anything without facing any consequences from the public or private spheres of society, but minorities and marginalized groups and people they disagree with need to shut the fuck up or be subject to a vitriolic barrage of harassment. /sarcasm

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

Evolution means that the way things are right now (or were previously, at least in the fevered imaginings of ignorant misogynistic pissbabies) are the way that things should always and have always been, because they were made perfect and are thus ‘natural’.

I know you’re being sarcastic, but that sounds exactly like Creationism.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

Ahaha yes, pretty much, t’was my intention to draw that comparison. That’s basically how badly these idiots misunderstand the concepts and vocabularly they like to throw around like water, that their interpretation is much closer to the polar opposite of the things they claim to stand for.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Catalpa

I read that in Morrigan’s voice from DA.

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
5 years ago

“Fuckin’ cissy”?

Of course these shitlords would get all their knowledge of social issues from South Park. Of course they would.

Don’t get me wrong, South Park can be really funny and on point at times (the episode where Stan had to encounter the various dynamics regarding Facebook was hilarious IMO), but they should either educate themselves about social justice issues or shut up about them.

While the show may not always actively be mean-spirited towards specific minorities, a lot of it feels like “waah, it’s so haaaard to navigate the culture of equality as a cishet white man and take into consideration that people different from me exist” sometimes. I still cringe at the episode where “I don’t see race” was presented as some kind of an epiphany for Chef, a black character who would likely have heard that very same racist argument a thousand times over had the writers not been fairly clueless white guys.

@redneckcryonicist:

I don’t want “indoor plumbing” which can’t possibly exist any way because it lacks a basis in reality. I want organic shitting in the woods, the system that evolved through evolution and got us here.

For some reason crapping progressives who insist that they believe in evolution think they can just throw it away and apply creationist defecation principles to the human mind, where they can shape shit arbitrarily like clay.

FIFY. Now your argument makes more sense. It’s still stupid, though.

I just recently had a huge fight over this “the majority should call all the shots in society because they can arbitrarily decide that their way is ‘natural’ and therefore ‘right’, despite not making logical sense” bullshit. No more, thank you very much.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Anarchonist

I found that particular episode troubling because of Mr. Garrison and Cartman explaining trans* and cis stuff. Mr. Garrison is (or was?) racist, he decided to become a women then changes back to a man, he petitioned against gay rights while he was a woman because Mr. Slave, his boyfriend while he was a man, broke up with him because Mr. Slave is a gay man and isn’t attracted to women. And I don’t think I need to explain why it’s wrong that Cartman is explaining shit either.

I will say, I think this is the same episode, that Randy’s story that he’s actually Lorde was actually well-handled considering. (Although I wouldn’t know truly since I’m cisgendered myself.) Stan was a little douche about it, though, but that’s more about his character than actually expositional and story problems.

I will say that at least the terminology is out there, although it could have been handled waaaay better. It’s probably because each episode is done pretty quickly–there was a special about the creation of the Human Centipad episode that showed they write, voice and animate each episode in a week–so they don’t really get to mull over the exact implications or ways to express plot points better than they should.

At least it was better than what Family Guy did.

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
5 years ago

@Pandapool

Mr. Mackey calling “cis” “normal” and Mr. Garrison reacting to this with some kind of mixed horror and panic doubtlessly gave dudebros more fuel to their “the PC police is everywhere!” paranoia. It wasn’t an overall terrible episode, but Cheetos, get a clue, guys.

Family Guy I can’t say anything about. I’ve seen probably three or four episodes of that show, and each and every one of them had a rape joke in it. I don’t know if I just had bad luck in choosing episodes, but that put me off, probably for life. On top of that, I just find the show unfunny in general.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Anarchonist

Family Guy has a shit ton of rape jokes in it. I’d say a good 95% of the episodes have at least one.

And if you feel like getting angry, here is a summary of the infamous Family Guy episode Quagmire’s Dad.

Of course, the summary doesn’t tell all the horrible shit that goes down, like the conversation that Quagmire has with Peter and Lois about Ida, the transgender woman the episode is about, and them calling Ida “a really gay man” because she transitioned, or Lois throwing out the dish Ida brought to dinner because she’s transgender, or how much of a freak out Brian did when he figured out he slept with a transgender woman.

The worst part is that Ida gets so little time to explain shit and there’s no counter argument to the whole “yeah, transexuals are weird”. And not a single episode afterwards corrects this, either. It only gets worst.

Not only does Ida barely get mentioned again, during a Thanksgiving episode, Brian calls her “a big dumb drag queen” and in another episode, Quagmire sleeps with Ida, his own mother, on a dare.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/omg.gif

I MEAN WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK, PEOPLE?

mildlymagnificent
5 years ago

Okay. For all the fed up people here’s a nice big barrel of hugs and soft cuddly toys and flowers and candles and choccies’n’stuff.

For those who’re left speechless in the face of the bullshit avalanche, WHTM now has — courtesy of me — our very own ‘stationery’ cupboard. It’s unique. It’s full of evens and wuts and WTFs and oh my giddy aunts for everyone who finds they’ve run out of these essentials. Enjoy.

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

Family Guy has a shit ton of rape jokes in it

Family Guy is unoriginal, not funny, boring, reactionary, pretends cultural references are inherently funny, has sub-standard voice acting, not funny, has terribly structured scripts, recycles it’s own shitty jokes, pretends it’s outrageous without taking any actual risks, made Seth MacFarlane undeservedly popular and not funny.

The only decent thing to come from Family Guy is the withering and dead on South Park two-part mockery of it.

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
5 years ago

@Pandapool

Thanks for that link, and that info. I knew I despised Family Guy for a reason.

Anyways, I’ll be postponing my getting angry at asshole show writers for a few days. I’ll be attending the World Village Festival in Helsinki this weekend, listening to speakers and great music from around the world. And getting info and meeting interesting people. And getting outraged at capitalist imperialism in Third World countries, probably, but hey, nothing new there.

Anarchonist
Anarchonist
5 years ago

@brooked

Did you mention it’s not funny either?

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@brooked

A lot of its jokes are just ripped directly from the thing they’re “parodying”, like the episode in which they “parody” Tootsie. They put in the whole joke about what’s his name trying to hail a taxi in his falsetto voice, but then yells in his normal voice and gets a taxi straight away. They put that entire joke in there line for line, beat for beat. I’m thinking since Tootsie is an old movie they think the younger kids who watch the show wouldn’t notice.

I’d say the best thing that came out of Family Guy was American Dad. It’s more original stories and handles subject matter 10000000000x better, not that that’s saying much. Cleveland Show is a close second, since it also handles subject matter and is more original stories as well. But it has some recycled shit from Family Guy and the main character, Cleveland’s, personality is completely different to what he used to be in Family Guy.They basically made Cleveland into a Peter clone.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@Anarchonist

Oh, I forgot to say I hope you have a good trip! 😀

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

I haven’t watch American Dad or Cleveland Show because I’ve had such a adverse reaction to Family Guy. I haven’t watched that much Family Guy, but I watched a few episodes with people who really like it and I didn’t see one positive aspect to it. I wouldn’t debate a fan over it, I don’t care or know enough about it. They can love it even if it sucks, to each their own.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

I’m pretty sure I’ve shared public washrooms with trans women, but never given the matter much thought, because they’re women, and women don’t “real world troll” each other regarding toilet rights. We just get in there, do our business, wash our hands, run a mirror check, and leave.

I just had to make a comment here… Yes, some ciswomen “real-world-troll” transwomen and harass them for using women’s restrooms. Unfortunately it’s a thing that happens.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

@brooked

I’d say give at least American Dad a shot but you don’t have to. I can at least say there has never been an episode that has made me go “THE FUCK ARE YOU GUYS DOING?” yet like Family Guy has a billion times.

For instance, there’s a gay couple, Terry Bates and Greg Corbin, across the street from where the Smiths, the main character family, live. They’re stereotypical, admittedly. They happen to both be news reporters and are frequently on the show as such but also out of the context of news. For instance, there was a whole episode in which Stan Smith, the father, wants to speak at the speaker at the Republican Convention but he gets rejected. Soon he finds the Log Cabin Republicans and finds out they’re gay and there’s predictable reactions to it – however, Greg happens to be Republican, which Terry freaks out about.

There’s also an episode where Terry and Greg decide to have a baby and Francine, Stan’s wife, volunteers to be the surrogate, although Stan doesn’t know this. Greg is shown being extremely apprehensive about becoming a father, but Terry is rather level headed about it and is rather annoyed at Greg’s reaction – which lasts until Greg holds his daughter in his arms for the first time. It’s funny and cute.

Then there’s the episode where Terry’s father comes to visit and Terry pretends that he had a baby out of wedlock with Francine as his girlfriend because his father is extremely homophobic. In the end, Terry’s father doesn’t change his mind about it. Through many episodes before and after, you can tell that this rather upsets Terry, though Greg comforts him.

But I think the best part is while they may be a little flamboyant, their relationship is depicted as normal, and as you can see, they fleshed out characters despite being secondary characters. There’s no sexual kinks mentioned, no jokes about pedophilia, just honestly a normal couple with a baby.

Really the only time sexual kinks come up is between Hailey and her husband Jeff are using sex swings and this one episode that involved spicing up their sex life. And then there’s the episode in which Stan and Francine decide to try some kink stuff because it turns out Francine has a thing for spankings.

But then there’s also Rodger. He’s a hedonistic, lazy, alcoholic, abusive, pansexual space alien. He’s actually where I first heard of pansexuality. And he actually describes himself as pansexual on the show…not that’s, you know, super great in a way, but, you know, how many characters on TV can you say have outright said they’re pansexual? He happens to have a million disguises and personas and shit I won’t get into making him rather complex but, yeah.

I gone a little off topic. Let me get back to gay guys.

Every story about homophobia, a lesson is learned and it’s rather positive, which the exception of Terry’s dad where we learn that no matter if someone knows that being gay isn’t a choice and stuff, some people will just hate gay people for being gay. It’s a sad lesson, but true.

It’s just so fucking amazing that Family Guy can so fuck up spectacularly but then we have Terry and Greg on American Dad! It’s just so fucking weird! But also amazing! Exclamation!

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

Oh, did you guys catch wind of this controversy: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/as-a-white-man-im-surprised-more-women-arent-tweeting-the-hashtag-killallwhitemen-10266952.html ?

Goldsmith’s Diversity Officer, Bahar Mustafa, is being accused of Racism and Sexism for
A) Excluding white cis-men from a Queer BME conference event.
B) Tweeting #KillAllWhiteMen.
There’s a big petition to get her removed from her role as Diversity Officer, and I’m really frustrated at how many people are throwing a tantrum over how she’s apparently “inciting genocide”, whilst bombarding her with slurs.

This is at least the third or fourth instance of the position of Diversity Officer being attacked at a university in the last couple of years that I’ve been aware of.

University of Birmingham’s Women’s Association faced backlash for banning Robin Thicke’s music from being played in the student union, as part of their zero-tolerence policy on sexual harassment and “Lad culture”.

I forget which university it was (might have been Loughborough) that had a cis-man running for Women’s Officer because he had “identified as a woman ever since he realised he could get into the women’s changing rooms”, and promised to make sure there was plenty of “gash” at Freshers club nights.
He was deliberately mocking the position of WO and calling for its abolition, by being a sexist, transphobic jerk-wad. I think he was eventually removed from the election and disciplined, thank goodness.

And then there was Tasmanian University, where a cis-man was elected to Women’s Officer, perhaps with good intentions, but clearly didn’t understand why he was not the best candidate for the job. http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/james-ritchie-resigns-as-womens-officer-at-tuu/story-fnjbnts7-1227297386040

There seems to be quite a few of these instances, where Women’s spaces at universities are being challenged and threatened by the student bodies they represent, the media and other outraged individuals who are opposed to progress.

It seems to be part of the backlash against Feminism in general, but it’s really frustrating just how many people (even certified commies among my friends) buy into this shit that it’s ok to call a woman a “stupid c**t” for enforcing a safe-space policy. >_<

RedFox
RedFox
5 years ago

I saw this a while ago on imgur actually. A terrible post titled “Tumblr leaked into my real life- I had to highlight their hypocrisy”. Predictably the comments were mostly a mix of shit and hateful shit. But one of them had a link to this thing, which is great:comment image:

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Literally every comment on Alto’s first link was posted by a literal neo-Nazi (including at least one call to “Gas the [k-words]”). That must be some kind of record.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

@Pandapool: Fellow fan of American Dad here. 😀 I’ve watched volumes 1-6 on DVD, so I can’t speak for the show any later than that, but yeah, it’s great.

A show that I liked at first but eventually got fed up with, though, is South Park. In earlier seasons it mostly felt as if they were just making fun of everyone indiscriminately, but around like seasons 7 and 8 they had begun, more and more, to preach their own ideologies to the viewers, and pretty nasty ideologies at that. Like, there’s this whole episode about how Paris Hilton is a dirty fucking whore for drinking alcohol and sleeping around, and we should all hate women who are dirty fucking whores, right? It was just so incredibly misogynistic from start to finish. Also, they had this episode called Goobacks about people coming from the future via time travel to work minimum wage jobs, and… that ep was funny in a lot of ways, had a lot of funny jokes, but it also preached the message that things like labour unions and minimum wages are silly and everyone should just freely compete on the free market and yada yada. There was this entire ep about how schools should absolutely not teach children anything about sex. And I’ve heard that in later seasons, there is some terribly, terribly transphobic shit when Mr Garisson comes out as a woman. Anyway, that misogynistic-as-fuck Paris Hilton ep was like the last straw for me anyway. I just said that I’m giving up on South Park from now on.

sevenofmine
5 years ago

Ya know I sort of agree that there is probably a way to word that sign that doesn’t come off as saying “everyone is welcome here except members of this very specific group”. I think it’s possible to convey what the room is for without singling out cis-dudes as being specifically unwelcome/unsafe there. Cis-women can obviously be every bit as bigoted and hostile toward gender minorities as cis-men can. I think you can convey that the environment past this point is intended to be a place where women and gender minorities can be safe from all forms of bigotry and harassment without singling out any one group.

But that’s a minor quibble which does nothing to invalidate the need for this room.

This is such a perfect illustration of how there is a legit conversation that could be had here about how you present the concept of this room to the rest of the world. But these guys aren’t interested in having that conversation. They just want to pitch a fit that someone has something they don’t have.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

@ Scented Fucking Hard Chairs

Oh, dang. D:
I can’t even see the comment section on the Independent’s website, since I have so many ad-block filters installed. I guess it’s a small mercy for me, but yeah Lewis’ Law in action there.
I’m actually pretty alarmed that the neo-nazis haven’t been moderated.

Chiming in with everyone who says Family Guy sucks. I don’t really see American Dad as being a whole lot better, since they make light of killing sex workers, and women in general, all the time. Haven’t watched the Cleveland Show, but I wouldn’t trust Seth McFarlane to write black characters without resorting to lazily justified racism.

Can’t express how appalling the Simpsons/ Family Guy crossover episode was, both in terms of being unfunny, and all the jarringly inappropriate violence that seemed totally at odds with the ultimately pro-social Simpsons ethos. I feel sad that they ever thought that episode would be a good idea.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

Ack. Family Guy. I have issues with that, mostly because I really enjoy unexplained cutaway gags, Big Lipped Alligator Moments, brick jokes and absurdist metahumour, all of which Family Guy does really well; but the constant mean spiritness and horrible social values of it make it deeply uncomfortable viewing. It’s why I was so grateful for The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. If someone managed to make something that had the same style of comedy but without the awfulness then I would watch it to death.

Looking back on it, I can see Family Guy as a yardstick of my own improvement as a human being. When I first encountered it I saw it as hilarious and loved how transgressive and “edgy” it was. Thankfully I’m not that person any more, and it’s a useful reminder of how far I’ve come.

Ellesar
Ellesar
5 years ago

Cis isn’t a feminist term, I do not use that term, I expect plenty of feminists do not. I know radfems do not use that term. I work in an LGBT community centre and NO ONE has ever used that term. We have loads of trans volunteers and service users. I am trans positive, but the term cis is just not OK for me.

isidore13
isidore13
5 years ago

Ellesar, why is that?

tesformes
5 years ago

Yeah, Ellesar, what word would you use to refer to people who aren’t cis?

tesformes
5 years ago

I mean aren’t trans.

andiexist
andiexist
5 years ago
Reply to  Ellesar

@Ellesar

There’s nothing unfeminist about having a term for when one’s biological sex matches one’s gender. That’s all that being cis is, and its existence helps show that being cis or trans are both equally valid. It’s hard to do that without a label. I understand that that might not be the prevailing notion at your LGBT center, but that argument somewhat smacks of “I have a friend who is X, and xe says…”

Teal deer version: Gender can match sex, gender can not match sex, both are fine, and there’s nothing wrong with both having labels.

tesformes
5 years ago

It also smacks of “I’m not cis, I’m NORMAL.”

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Personally, I’m glad that somebody coined the word “Cis.” “Not-trans” has always been kinda clunky, and I’m sure I don’t have to explain why the most common word for it back in the ’90s and ’00s, “Normal,” is just awful and gross and wrong.

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

Ninja’d by Tes while I was trying to find a way to word it. =P

DJG
DJG
5 years ago

@Pandapool – I don’t think I’d heard of American Dad. From your description, it sounds like (given the context) a fairly realistic portrayal of what accepting or positive straight people want to think gay men and their relationships are like. It doesn’t sound as if they got the political episode or the baby episode all that right, and I don’t have any even to start can’ting about the father’s visit episode.

A major improvement – sure, but that’s a low bar. A step forward – probably. But that’s about it.

sevenofmine
5 years ago

I’ve yet to see anyone make an argument against “cis” that doesn’t involve claiming that there doesn’t need to be a word for “not-trans” which, as others have pointed out, has some really gross implications i.e. not-trans = normal while trans* = abnormal.

Also from Ellesar’s post: “I’m trans positive, but…”

Yeah. About that…

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

Yeah, gotta agree, there needs to be a word for it. Cis is fine as far as I’m concerned, certainly beats “normal”.

Quiet Wolf
Quiet Wolf
5 years ago

A trans woman once suggested that maybe “cis” experiences the backlash it does because trans folk were the ones who came up with it. I think there’s a lot of truth there, as “allosexual/alloromantic” also experiences some backlash (to a much lesser degree) because asexual and aromantic people came up with them. The minority naming the majority tends to get the majority’s backs up.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

Chiming in to say that I do like American Dad myself, even though I don’t like Seth McFarlane in general. Family Guy is problematic as hell but AD I can see the humour in, most times. As for South Park, I have mixed feelings as sometimes it’s eyebrow raising and sometimes it’s actually brilliant. I loved the episode that was a parody of Game of Thrones.

Dvärghundspossen
5 years ago

I’ve seen some feminists object to ‘cis’, because ‘cis’ is sometimes defined in a way that makes it sound as if cis people are completely perfectly comfortable with everything gender-related, and feminists make a point of the fact that today’s expectations for the different genders are a shitty deal for women. I think that’s a misunderstanding of what ‘cis’ is supposed to be, but I can see how people object to being labelled ‘cis’ if they had the term explained for them in that way, like “cis people are completely comfortable with being the gender that they were assigned at birth…” or the like.
Also, some people seem to make it a condition for being a cis woman that you really, deeply feel yourself to be a woman, and analogously for being a cis man. But that’s false for a lot of cis people. Not for all, but for a lot. A lot of cis people are what Ozy once labelled “cis by default” – you’re assigned female at birth, you have a vagina, a female name, people use ‘she’ as a pronoun for you and you’re okay with that. Not necessarily embracing it in a “Wow, this is so totally me, I’m so totally a woman, that’s what I really am”-way, but you’re okay with it (and the same for many cis men of course).
So a lot of people who dislike the word ‘cis’ do so because they feel that we don’t need a word for the normal ones, but sometimes it’s because they’ve had ‘cis’ explained in a fairly weird way to them, one that they couldn’t recognize themselves in.

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

I will say that as a cis gay man, I have no problem with being identified as or referred to as cis. It just doesn’t bother me. I do not get the impression that it’s used as an insult, and have never seen a convincing explanation of how it is one.

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

My first husband was in a gay Asian organization for a few years. It had meetings that were not open to non-Asians, which meant that he could attend and I couldn’t. I did not have a problem with that; the idea of objecting to a safe space for people of color seemed supremely obnoxious, in fact. I was actually glad that he had that opportunity.

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 years ago

I don’t have a problem with being labelled “cis” either.

I wish our society was more open about gender in general. I used to wonder if I was trans or lesbian just because my personality isn’t nurturing or “feminine.” Turns out I’m a plain old boring cis hetero white girl who just isn’t terribly nurturing.

Cis is a good shorthand, I think, but it’s probably best not to assume cis people haven’t struggled a bit with gender issues either.

Though obviously it’s not at all the same sort of struggle, in kind or in magnitude. It must be terrible to not feel like you fit in your own skin; I wish our society was helpful instead of being so very awful about it. People should be able to be who they are.

Mij
Mij
5 years ago

Some people may object to “cis”, because trans*ness is often portrayed in the dominant culture it’s still often through the (wo)man-trapped-in-a-(wo)man’s body, which is rather narrow and gender essentialist. However, it is also not really a problem with the term itself but how people use it and most probably can be fixed by a little education on how the term is properly used.

epitome of incomprehensibility

As for the sign itself, I think it might’ve been better just to list who the room includes and not who it excludes, but I don’t know the history of the place. It could be that cis men were trying to get in and say “Hey, look at me, why can’t I be a woman too if I say I’m a woman right now?” and such, and then wouldn’t listen when people tried to explain stuff to them.

What I like about the sign is that they’re calling it a “safer” space (I know it’s a small distinction, but I think it’s more realistic than saying “safe” space, because nothing is totally safe.)

Anyway, it’s hypocritical of the MRAs to say they’re pointing out the “hypocrisy” of the sign, since what they’re really saying is that non-cis people can’t, or shouldn’t, exist. That’s what they mean, and yeah, I kind of feel dirty writing that.

epitome of incomprehensibility

(The last line should’ve been in italics, by the way. I was trying to quote from one of the comments.)