Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
9 years ago
@Ladt Mondegreen
I agree with you, but I think the point she was trying to make is that the movie is centered around violence, not as a way to say violence as bad, but simply for entertainment purposes. A passing line that states violence is wrong, pretty much, is antithesis in a movie that centers around violence being the answer to freedom. A better way to get that theme across is to not have the main characters fight, only let the bad guys do violence.
That being said, it is a Mad Max movie. You can’t really expect it not to have the main character do violence. But because the movie is framed with violence in mind, it glorifies it, and uses the story elements to justify glorifying violence.
But, like I said, I don’t agree with her. It’s an action movie set in a post-apocalyptic world. It’s a Mad Max movie. And any feminist movie can be any genre, including violent action films.
In the bad news front, I ran out of packing tape and newspapers so I can’t finish packing before my dad gets here with the truck tomorrow. Oh well. There’s not too much left and I don’t have to be out till Tuesday morning.
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
9 years ago
@katz
Urgh. Um, I think she’s thinking that because we have a heavily patriarchal society that some choices women make are colored by it. Only when we live in a truly egalitarian state can women exercise true choice because it won’t possibly be colored by what men want from us.
I also completely disagree with her with that. A housewife that enjoys being a housewife–or a stripper, or a waitress, or whatever–and supports other women not becoming housewives (or whatever) but construction workers and such is ideal and real feminism. Her own personal choices could be painted by patriarchy, but as long as she is encouraging other women and men to pursue what they want to do, regardless of stereotypes, I see no problem with it.
‘Sokay, I’d make a damn stupid ninja if I ever tried to become one!
Lady Mondegreen
9 years ago
A passing line that states violence is wrong, pretty much, is antithesis in a movie that centers around violence being the answer to freedom
It’s more than a passing line. Mad Max is set in a post-apocalyptic world. That’s–the whole movie. And it explicitly places the blame for that state of affairs on toxic masculinity and patriarchy.
Whether or not it would be possible to rebel and make change in such a society without violence is another question, one for another time…
Lady Mondegreen
9 years ago
But, like I said, I don’t agree with her. It’s an action movie set in a post-apocalyptic world. It’s a Mad Max movie. And any feminist movie can be any genre, including violent action films
It’s not that I even think her positions are particularly wrong, it’s just that once you start defining what women should and shouldn’t be doing, we’re back where we started, no matter how correct your opinions are.
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
9 years ago
@Lady Mondegreen
Like I said, I agree with you, I’m just trying to explain why I think Anita would say it’s not feminist. And, like I said before, she’s a pacifist and ties it into feminism, so it explains a bit.
Lady Mondegreen
9 years ago
Funny how the MRAs complain having women in such roles is “unrealistic.” DO THEY THINK THE MALE CHARACTERS ARE REALISTIC?
MRAs, reality. Reality, MRAs.
Seriously, (SPOILER) after losing all that blood and being trussed up like that for god knows how long and Max could still fight like that? Suspendin ma disbeliefs.
And now I must stop being a threadhog, and stop arguing with Anita Sarkeesian in my head, and go to bed.
Seriously, (SPOILER) after losing all that blood and being trussed up like that for god knows how long and Max could still fight like that? Suspendin ma disbeliefs.
Nux is the one who really impresses me, particularly surviving his car crash. For a character who’s supposed to be dying, he’s damn near immortal.
Lam
9 years ago
Happy (belated?) birthday WWTH!!
I’m in a depressed state lately. The most important person in the world to me has gone. Not dead. Just dropped off the face of the Earth. I know he’s ok. I’ve seen him playing games on steam. He just suddenly wouldn’t say anything to me anymore and actively hides from me. I’ve tried everything to get him to speak to me but he just ignores me. The abandonment destroying my mind.
We had come to depend on each other so I just dont understand. He was the one person I thought would never leave. He convinced me to trust him. The worst part is the lack of closure keeps this tiny flicker of hope that breaks me with every text, call, email I hope is his. I keep switching between feeling completely numb and utterly distraught.
Also, I found out tht I have dissociative identity disorder (which is actually a bit relieving as there’s finally an explanation for some things)
Lam
9 years ago
That pic is so wtf. What’s up with that woman’s ponytail? Where’s her other arm? And is she caressing that guy’s butt???
His face reminds me of a mix between the “if you know what I mean” and “I see what you did there” meme faces
I agree with you, but I think the point she was trying to make is that the movie is centered around violence, not as a way to say violence as bad, but simply for entertainment purposes. A passing line that states violence is wrong, pretty much, is antithesis in a movie that centers around violence being the answer to freedom. A better way to get that theme across is to not have the main characters fight, only let the bad guys do violence.
That being said, it is a Mad Max movie. You can’t really expect it not to have the main character do violence. But because the movie is framed with violence in mind, it glorifies it, and uses the story elements to justify glorifying violence.
She’s for the most part correct, I’ve enjoyed action movies all my life but they do glorify violence and often feed simplistic power fantasies where heroic violence vanquishes evil with no real sense of any true cost. I don’t personally associate it with feminism, I see it more as a product of bellicose jingoism and adolescent fantasies of empowering violence without consequences.
As mentioned in another thread, I’ve enjoyed the last two Hunger Game movies. Collins and/or the filmmakers have made a point to show how the government responds to every action taken by the rebellion with violent retaliations against civilians. It echoes how the Nazis would slaughter civilians when German soldiers were killed by occupied countries’ resistance fighters, the worst instances involving the slaughter of the entire villages such as Oradour-sur-Glane in France and Lidice in the Czech Republic. (It happened in other wars of course, but I’ve been watching WW2 docs that run every Memorial weekend and got WW2 on my brain.) The main characters are wrestling with moral dilemmas typically absent from fantasy action blockbusters.
I’ve only seen one big budget action movie that completely avoids glorifying violence, last year’s Dawn of the Planet of the Apes. That movie was far from perfect, but it’s a genuine anti-war film, which makes it unique and kind of amazing. The human and ape leads do their best to avoid a war that they know will be disastrous for both sides; all the violence is filmed as horrific chaos with no heroes, only misguided blood thirsty factions butchering each other out of fear, paranoia and distrust. There is not one single instance where someone righteously kicks ass and every act of violence in the film only makes things worse.
Bit of a spoiler:
The film’s heroes, the human leader Malcolm and ape leader Caesar both desperately try to stop the growing conflict turning into war. At the end, they realize their efforts have failed and they mourn how both sides wasted multiple chances for peace. It’s a fitting homage to the downbeat ending of so common in 1970s and the original films.
It is from Game of Thrones, it’s a Weirwood tree on a cake. I thought it’s fitting for weirwoodtreehugger’s Nameday.
EJ (The Other One)
9 years ago
@Khane’s Mom:
Welcome! Have a scented fucking candle. Pull up a hard chair and Katy will be along shortly (All hail Katy!)
@WWTH:
Happy birthday!
@katz:
I saw that and felt the same way, which confused me. I don’t like to disagree with Sarkeesian, particularly given how formative she was in my feminist development and how influential she continues to be; but in this case I felt she was very much out of step with the rest of the hive mind.
A lot of Sarkeesian’s positions (for example her dislike of violence, or referring to sex workers as ‘prostituted women’) seems to hearken back to second-wave feminism rather than a more modern flavour. Perhaps she does take a more second-wave position on these things; or perhaps it’s that she comes from a background of academic feminism rather than the pop-culture strain.
I don’t know enough to debate it usefully, but I’ve definitely noticed it before and I’m not sure what to make of it. When I discuss feminism in male geek spaces I tend to dig in my heels and defend Sarkeesian to the bitter end, but it’s awkward when she’s out of step with everybody else.
EJ (The Other One)
9 years ago
@Lam:
That sucks. I’ve been there, I’ve been broken up with like that, and it’s awful. Please accept my internet hugs unless you dislike touching, in which case please accept my internet best wishes instead.
@Pandapool:
@brooked:
It’s interesting to come at this from the position that Sarkeesian is conflating her pacifism with her feminism. Certainly one can be one or the other without being both. It makes me wonder if there are specifically pacifist cultural critics out there, who have taken pop culture apart and analysed the tropes from a pacifist standpoint, not necessarily a feminist one. I’d enjoy that greatly.
If not, maybe I should do it. I don’t have time or energy, but whining that someone else should do things for me is something I dislike doing.
Not a personal thing, but did everyone hear about the Duggars?
I’d gloat, but then I feel really sorry for all the girls involved. I wonder if Dalrock and the other trad/con/anti-feminists will address the current revelations? Somehow I doubt it.
@EJ
I recommend you check out Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, I stand by my claim that it’s a truly anti-war film. It’s anti-war not just plot wise. The battle sequences are horrifying and tragic, and we see them from the POV of characters, mostly apes against the war, who are helpless, frightened and devastated by what they witness.
I recommend both movies from the latest Planet of the Ape reboot. This new series is pretty great. I know some people were wary of them, partly because they unfortunately were subjected to the abysmal 2001 Tim Burton remake. It has nothing to do with that, but there are references to the original 1970s movie.
Here’s an online preview of the a film crit anthology called “Screening Violence”. I recommend the essay “Violence: The Strong and the Weak” by Devin McKinney, but there a several excellent essays in the book.
My news is that 2 weeks ago I broke up with my partner. It was an unhealthy relationship that I allowed to drag on for 5 years. He’s moving out on Monday and I’m a little scared of being solely responsible for rent and bills. However, I’m also excited at the prospect of freedom. My kids were so happy when I told them he’s moving out. They actually cried with happiness and thanked me. He’s never been physically abusive but he just constantly complains at us about every little thing we do.
In happier news, I have a date on Tuesday. I’ve told the man I’m going on a date with that I’m not ready for anything serious and he said he just really likes me and wants to take me on lots of dates and make me smile.
Wish me luck for both moving day and my date.
Spindrift
9 years ago
@WWTH Hope you had a nice birthday!
@NicolaLuna Good luck with the move and your date!
Hugs to everyone going through a rough time.
As for dancing, I’m not much of a dancer (I embarrass easily), closest I come is knowing most of the lyrics to the time warp. Here’s my donation to the dance video pool, some comedic interpretive dance.
guest
9 years ago
OK, that Sam Seder clip was hilarious; I’m glad I spent that 20 minutes. Best line:
‘I’m recording all this and will put it online!’
‘You realise this is a radio show, right?’
We Hunted The Mammoth
@Ladt Mondegreen
I agree with you, but I think the point she was trying to make is that the movie is centered around violence, not as a way to say violence as bad, but simply for entertainment purposes. A passing line that states violence is wrong, pretty much, is antithesis in a movie that centers around violence being the answer to freedom. A better way to get that theme across is to not have the main characters fight, only let the bad guys do violence.
That being said, it is a Mad Max movie. You can’t really expect it not to have the main character do violence. But because the movie is framed with violence in mind, it glorifies it, and uses the story elements to justify glorifying violence.
But, like I said, I don’t agree with her. It’s an action movie set in a post-apocalyptic world. It’s a Mad Max movie. And any feminist movie can be any genre, including violent action films.
A weirwood cake! Awesome!
In the bad news front, I ran out of packing tape and newspapers so I can’t finish packing before my dad gets here with the truck tomorrow. Oh well. There’s not too much left and I don’t have to be out till Tuesday morning.
@katz
Urgh. Um, I think she’s thinking that because we have a heavily patriarchal society that some choices women make are colored by it. Only when we live in a truly egalitarian state can women exercise true choice because it won’t possibly be colored by what men want from us.
I also completely disagree with her with that. A housewife that enjoys being a housewife–or a stripper, or a waitress, or whatever–and supports other women not becoming housewives (or whatever) but construction workers and such is ideal and real feminism. Her own personal choices could be painted by patriarchy, but as long as she is encouraging other women and men to pursue what they want to do, regardless of stereotypes, I see no problem with it.
@Pandapool
‘Sokay, I’d make a damn stupid ninja if I ever tried to become one!
It’s more than a passing line. Mad Max is set in a post-apocalyptic world. That’s–the whole movie. And it explicitly places the blame for that state of affairs on toxic masculinity and patriarchy.
Whether or not it would be possible to rebel and make change in such a society without violence is another question, one for another time…
Agreed!
I do lurves me some kick-ass action movie womenz.
It’s not that I even think her positions are particularly wrong, it’s just that once you start defining what women should and shouldn’t be doing, we’re back where we started, no matter how correct your opinions are.
@Lady Mondegreen
Like I said, I agree with you, I’m just trying to explain why I think Anita would say it’s not feminist. And, like I said before, she’s a pacifist and ties it into feminism, so it explains a bit.
Funny how the MRAs complain having women in such roles is “unrealistic.” DO THEY THINK THE MALE CHARACTERS ARE REALISTIC?
MRAs, reality. Reality, MRAs.
Seriously, (SPOILER) after losing all that blood and being trussed up like that for god knows how long and Max could still fight like that? Suspendin ma disbeliefs.
And now I must stop being a threadhog, and stop arguing with Anita Sarkeesian in my head, and go to bed.
Night, all. Don’t stay up too late dancing, now.
Nux is the one who really impresses me, particularly surviving his car crash. For a character who’s supposed to be dying, he’s damn near immortal.
Happy (belated?) birthday WWTH!!
I’m in a depressed state lately. The most important person in the world to me has gone. Not dead. Just dropped off the face of the Earth. I know he’s ok. I’ve seen him playing games on steam. He just suddenly wouldn’t say anything to me anymore and actively hides from me. I’ve tried everything to get him to speak to me but he just ignores me. The abandonment destroying my mind.
We had come to depend on each other so I just dont understand. He was the one person I thought would never leave. He convinced me to trust him. The worst part is the lack of closure keeps this tiny flicker of hope that breaks me with every text, call, email I hope is his. I keep switching between feeling completely numb and utterly distraught.
Also, I found out tht I have dissociative identity disorder (which is actually a bit relieving as there’s finally an explanation for some things)
That pic is so wtf. What’s up with that woman’s ponytail? Where’s her other arm? And is she caressing that guy’s butt???
His face reminds me of a mix between the “if you know what I mean” and “I see what you did there” meme faces
Oh hey, did anyone give Khane’s Mom the welcome package?
@Pandapool
She’s for the most part correct, I’ve enjoyed action movies all my life but they do glorify violence and often feed simplistic power fantasies where heroic violence vanquishes evil with no real sense of any true cost. I don’t personally associate it with feminism, I see it more as a product of bellicose jingoism and adolescent fantasies of empowering violence without consequences.
As mentioned in another thread, I’ve enjoyed the last two Hunger Game movies. Collins and/or the filmmakers have made a point to show how the government responds to every action taken by the rebellion with violent retaliations against civilians. It echoes how the Nazis would slaughter civilians when German soldiers were killed by occupied countries’ resistance fighters, the worst instances involving the slaughter of the entire villages such as Oradour-sur-Glane in France and Lidice in the Czech Republic. (It happened in other wars of course, but I’ve been watching WW2 docs that run every Memorial weekend and got WW2 on my brain.) The main characters are wrestling with moral dilemmas typically absent from fantasy action blockbusters.
I’ve only seen one big budget action movie that completely avoids glorifying violence, last year’s Dawn of the Planet of the Apes. That movie was far from perfect, but it’s a genuine anti-war film, which makes it unique and kind of amazing. The human and ape leads do their best to avoid a war that they know will be disastrous for both sides; all the violence is filmed as horrific chaos with no heroes, only misguided blood thirsty factions butchering each other out of fear, paranoia and distrust. There is not one single instance where someone righteously kicks ass and every act of violence in the film only makes things worse.
Bit of a spoiler:
The film’s heroes, the human leader Malcolm and ape leader Caesar both desperately try to stop the growing conflict turning into war. At the end, they realize their efforts have failed and they mourn how both sides wasted multiple chances for peace. It’s a fitting homage to the downbeat ending of so common in 1970s and the original films.
@Fruitloopsie and Pandapool
It is from Game of Thrones, it’s a Weirwood tree on a cake. I thought it’s fitting for weirwoodtreehugger’s Nameday.
@Khane’s Mom:
Welcome! Have a scented fucking candle. Pull up a hard chair and Katy will be along shortly (All hail Katy!)
@WWTH:
Happy birthday!
@katz:
I saw that and felt the same way, which confused me. I don’t like to disagree with Sarkeesian, particularly given how formative she was in my feminist development and how influential she continues to be; but in this case I felt she was very much out of step with the rest of the hive mind.
A lot of Sarkeesian’s positions (for example her dislike of violence, or referring to sex workers as ‘prostituted women’) seems to hearken back to second-wave feminism rather than a more modern flavour. Perhaps she does take a more second-wave position on these things; or perhaps it’s that she comes from a background of academic feminism rather than the pop-culture strain.
I don’t know enough to debate it usefully, but I’ve definitely noticed it before and I’m not sure what to make of it. When I discuss feminism in male geek spaces I tend to dig in my heels and defend Sarkeesian to the bitter end, but it’s awkward when she’s out of step with everybody else.
@Lam:
That sucks. I’ve been there, I’ve been broken up with like that, and it’s awful. Please accept my internet hugs unless you dislike touching, in which case please accept my internet best wishes instead.
@Pandapool:
@brooked:
It’s interesting to come at this from the position that Sarkeesian is conflating her pacifism with her feminism. Certainly one can be one or the other without being both. It makes me wonder if there are specifically pacifist cultural critics out there, who have taken pop culture apart and analysed the tropes from a pacifist standpoint, not necessarily a feminist one. I’d enjoy that greatly.
If not, maybe I should do it. I don’t have time or energy, but whining that someone else should do things for me is something I dislike doing.
Hi Khane’s Mom! *waves*
Also sending Internet hugs/wishes (please mark the correct box) to Lam. P&P is on me.
Not a personal thing, but did everyone hear about the Duggars?
I’d gloat, but then I feel really sorry for all the girls involved. I wonder if Dalrock and the other trad/con/anti-feminists will address the current revelations? Somehow I doubt it.
@EJ
I recommend you check out Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, I stand by my claim that it’s a truly anti-war film. It’s anti-war not just plot wise. The battle sequences are horrifying and tragic, and we see them from the POV of characters, mostly apes against the war, who are helpless, frightened and devastated by what they witness.
I recommend both movies from the latest Planet of the Ape reboot. This new series is pretty great. I know some people were wary of them, partly because they unfortunately were subjected to the abysmal 2001 Tim Burton remake. It has nothing to do with that, but there are references to the original 1970s movie.
Here’s an online preview of the a film crit anthology called “Screening Violence”. I recommend the essay “Violence: The Strong and the Weak” by Devin McKinney, but there a several excellent essays in the book.
https://books.google.com/books?id=z-TulGTd5nAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=screening+violence&hl=en&sa=X&ei=N1FgVa_TNNKdygTI4oCoCw&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=screening%20violence&f=false
WWTH I hope your birthday was awesome!
My news is that 2 weeks ago I broke up with my partner. It was an unhealthy relationship that I allowed to drag on for 5 years. He’s moving out on Monday and I’m a little scared of being solely responsible for rent and bills. However, I’m also excited at the prospect of freedom. My kids were so happy when I told them he’s moving out. They actually cried with happiness and thanked me. He’s never been physically abusive but he just constantly complains at us about every little thing we do.
In happier news, I have a date on Tuesday. I’ve told the man I’m going on a date with that I’m not ready for anything serious and he said he just really likes me and wants to take me on lots of dates and make me smile.
Wish me luck for both moving day and my date.
@WWTH Hope you had a nice birthday!
@NicolaLuna Good luck with the move and your date!
Hugs to everyone going through a rough time.
As for dancing, I’m not much of a dancer (I embarrass easily), closest I come is knowing most of the lyrics to the time warp. Here’s my donation to the dance video pool, some comedic interpretive dance.
OK, that Sam Seder clip was hilarious; I’m glad I spent that 20 minutes. Best line:
‘I’m recording all this and will put it online!’
‘You realise this is a radio show, right?’
Gonna leave this here