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Red Pill Redditor angry that people think “any attempt to coerce a woman into sex is automatically ‘abuse.'”

The Red Pill: A Choking Hazard
The Red Pill: A Choking Hazard

A lot of Men’s Rights Activists, would-be pickup artists, and other so-called “Red Pillers” like to complain that feminists have so muddied up the issue of sexual consent that men today can never really be sure if the sex they’re having is actual consensual sex or some newfangled variety of rape.

But in fact the ones doing most of the muddying are them — in some cases because they would like to roll back the progress we’ve made on the issue of consent over the last several decades and return to a world in which pressuring and manipulating and even directly coercing a woman into saying “yes” to sex they don’t want was considered an appropriate “technique” in a man’s dating playbook. 

Most of them would prefer not to state this outright, and instead talk endlessly about the evils of “regret rape” and an alleged epidemic of “false rape accusations.” But once in a while they let slip what they really mean.

Case in point: a highly revealing, and heavily upvoted, post from the Red Pill subreddit in which one aspiring “game” master calling himself Archwinger expresses his dismay that so many people think “any attempt to coerce a woman into sex is automatically ‘abuse.'”

He goes on to argue, remarkably, that his refusal to see coerced sex as rape or even abuse is a sign of just how deeply Red Pillers like him respect women.

Our detractors assume women are idiots, and therefore, it should be a federal offence to ever attempt to coerce a woman into sex, because women that agree to be with such men are apparently, by definition, mentally impaired. 

In his mind, caring about abused women, and trying to understand the many complicated reasons they may choose to stay with abusers, is a sign that feminists “assume women are idiots.”

The occasion for Archwinger’s little rant was a post elsewhere on Reddit — he doesn’t link to it —

telling the tale of a 17-year-old girl and her controlling, manipulative, abusive 23-year-old boyfriend who took great pains to isolate her from her friends and family, demand sex on every occasion they would meet (and threaten to dump her or kick her out of his house if she didn’t comply), and some other really shitty behaviors, like physical violence and driving off and leaving her in another state.  

The kicker: the abusive boyfriend in the story was said to be a big fan of, you guessed it, The Red Pill subreddit.

Archwinger quickly tries to distance The Red Pill from this douchebag, declaring him to be

a sniveling loser who had to resort to insecure, jealous, and controlling behavior because he didn’t have options with other women, wasn’t an attractive or valuable man, and was desperately afraid of losing this girl.

In other words, as Archwinger writes, “this guy isn’t the ‘alpha male’ a Red Pill guy strives to be.”

Archwinger seems to have forgotten that various “Red Pill” and “game” gurus regularly recommend “gaslighting” and other forms of emotional abuse in order to keep wives and girlfriends, as they see it, in line. Indeed, you may recall the time that the repellent “pickup guru” Heartiste actually suggested that a number of the abusive behaviors listed on the Duluth “Power and Control Wheel” — a tool used by anti-domestic violence counselors — were great ways to get the upper hand with women.

Even more ironically, after dismissing the “sniveling loser” of a boyfriend who is so un-alpha he regularly threatened to break up with his girlfriend if she wouldn’t have sex with him right then and there, Archwinger turns around and suggests that this kind of manipulative abuse isn’t abuse at all.

Assuming there’s “no perceived power disparity or significant age difference or anything like that,” Archwinger argues, telling a woman to “[h]ave sex with me or we’re through” isn’t abusive; it’s just a simple question a woman can say “yes” or “no” to. He complains that

The modern, anti-Red-Pill viewpoint is that no woman would ever put up with that garbage. The only correct choice is for that woman to dump the “abusive” shithead she’s dating (because any attempt to coerce a woman into sex is automatically “abuse.” You’re supposed to buy her jewelry every weekend, not say a word about sex, and hope she fucks you out of the goodness of her heart).

Well, no. No one needs to buy anyone any jewelry. And no one is required to pity-fuck anyone “out of the goodness of [their] heart[s].” If your girlfriend has sex with you, it should be because she wants to have sex with you (as you do, with her).

It’s kind of amazing that Archwinger — at least as he frames things here — seems to see no third option between a direct demand for sex in the form of manipulative ultimatum and a creepy, passively aggressive “Nice Guy” attempt to guilt trip women into having sex by buying them expensive presents.

There is another way, guys: you could just fucking ask her. Not out of the blue with someone you don’t know, and not rudely, but in some appropriate manner, at an appropriate time and place when there’s some evidence that she might be interested in having sex with you as well. The exact wording of your question isn’t really terribly important; just ask.

Naturally, the assembled Red Pillers largely agreed with Archwinger’s creepy, rapey analysis.

A few had quibbles. Redpillschool, a moderator of the subreddit, argued —  in a comment that won more than a hundred upvotes — that Archwinger was too quick to assume that older men have more power in relationships with younger women. Because women have tits, and tits are power. No, really:

[W]omen are naturally turned on by and attracted to older, established, successful men. But if a man takes advantage of this — he’s wrong. He’s bad.

It becomes politically incorrect to use your advantages to attract women. You should date somebody your own age.

What about beauty? If age and status boost men’s SMV, then beauty and youth are women’s equivalent. Feminists don’t seem to care that a young beautiful woman has such an enormous amount of power, they can make a living off of just having tits, control men, get men to buy them things, and a variety of other things.

This is what Warren Farrell infamously (and a little anachronistically) has called women’s “miniskirt power.”

Another commenter had a more, well, fundamental issue with Archwinger’s analysis.

One issue I have with this post that is causing some dissonance within me is your assumption that women are logical and can think with reason. Though often written with snark, many posts here assume exactly the opposite. Therefore it is often suggested that men treat women as they would children (amused mastery) and take the lead in making final decisions.

Archwinger — you know, the great respecter of women — replied that women aren’t inherently stupid and illogical; society makes them that way.

Women aren’t stupid or incapable of reason. We just happen to live in a society where narcissistic bitches are lavished with attention and praised, and women never have to grow up, so the odds are that one or more women you date during your lifetime will behave in a manner that’s frankly kind of childish, and that you don’t want to validate. (insert obligatory “not all women” and “men too sometimes” language here so that nobody bothers replying with that idiocy)

Contrast that with feminism, which is advocating for a complete removal of all agency and responsibility from women, just not using those words because then it sounds stupid. …

Feminism seeks laws that remove agency from women. Did she have any alcohol in her system, then later regret sex? Rape. Man’s fault. Did she say yes, but not clearly and enthusiastically? Rape. Man’s fault. In a few years, you’ll probably see them push for expanding the definition of statutory rape to include an age difference of more than a certain amount (because a 35 year old man with a steady job dating a 21-year-old in college is clearly all about power and manipulation, because young women definitely aren’t attracted to good looks and social status and financial stability.)

There’s a lot of nonsense in his reply, but it’s that last bit that’s the most revealing: Archwinger understands perfectly that there’s a power differential between a thirtysomething man and a college-aged woman; he just wants to pretend it doesn’t matter.

Archwinger’s post, and the responses it generated, suggest that most Red Pillers are aware, as well, that when women end up “regretting” a sexual encounter that the man allegedly thought was consensual, it’s not because women are flighty and irresponsible and vindictive monsters out to punish innocent men. It’s because the woman in question was being coerced into it. And that isn’t “regret rape.” It’s just plain rape.

Red Pillers, or at least a significant number of them, are well aware that coerced sexual consent is no more valid than a “forced confession.” They just don’t want to remove coercion from their “seduction” toolkit.

H/T — r/againstmensrights

EDIT: A few additions and changes in the penultimate paragraph  to make the point clearer.

 

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strivingally
5 years ago

rape (noun)

unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.

Emphasis mine. If you’re coercing or manipulating someone into sexual acts, that’s sexual assault. It’s pretty straightforward, really. And as with pretty much any other situation, coerced “consent” isn’t really consent at all.

wordsp1nner
5 years ago

It is interesting that Redpillers see obsessed with logic, because they don’t really seem to understand what it is useful for. Redpill ethics seem to suggest that since domestic abuse “works” in getting the abuser what they want that makes it ethically correct and a good idea.

I honestly don’t know how to address that in any logical manner. Logical argument is all well and good, but not if you don’t have similar values. Am I supposed to argue logically for “tormenting your partner is bad, even if it gets you sex?” How?

Also, the redpiller goes from “No True Scotsman” to “But his behavior was actually a perfectly fine way to keep your woman in line” in the space of a paragraph break. Again, not a situation amenable to logic on my part.

brokensea
5 years ago

The tea analogy is perfect to explain consent.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Feminists say.

“We want the option to have a career without being held back because of our gender.”

“We want to only have sex when we’ve actively consented to it.”

“We want bodily autonomy. When we’re pregnant, we get final say over whether we carry the pregnancy to term because the pregnancy is happening in our own bodies.”

Red pillers interpret that as “feminists want women to be free of agency and responsibility!”

???

Real logical, guys. We’re literally demanding the opposite. Agency is what feminists have always fought for.

Clearly to them, women being responsible means accepting rape and abuse if we step out of line, say no or fail to boner please.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

Wait. The only options these men see are rape her or buy her jewelry in hopes of sex?

So, just asking someone if they’d fancy a tumble never occurred to this witless turd?

These “redpillers” really seem to believe that no woman anywhere ever wanted sex. What happened to us all being “hypergamous”? If he’s so “alpha” shouldn’t women be begging him for his “liquid gold”?

What must these men’s love lives be like? Yikes.

Feminists don’t seem to care that a young beautiful woman has such an enormous amount of power,

Assholes wanting to put their dicks in you is not power.

I’m betting these guys are all more aware than they pretend. They are rapists and want other men to believe the only reason a woman would “regret” having been raped by them has to do with how much jewelry he had not bought her. Yeah, I bet nearly every woman this man “had sex with” regretted his decision to rape her. They are so bitter toward men women seek to have sex with. They hate that women can sleep with who they like and they do not like rapist fuckwads.

wordsp1nner
5 years ago

I think to misogynists, “agency” and “responsibility” and “consequences” means “women should be forced to deal with whatever men do to them in the way men choose, because if they didn’t want that man to do that, they shouldn’t have [insert specific man’s bugaboo here].”

Like I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a misogynist argue that anti-rape activism denies women agency because women should be able to prevent rape, and that “agency” someone implies 100% control over the environment. Somehow.

I know I’ve seen arguments that abortion allows women do escape the “consequences” of pregnancy and that isn’t “taking responsibility”. It’s like, dude, getting an abortion is a fucking hassle. She’s taking responsibility. Just not in the way you care about, but when the fetus is in your uterus, then you can decide how to “take responsibility” for it.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

a sniveling loser who had to resort to insecure, jealous, and controlling behavior because he didn’t have options with other women, wasn’t an attractive or valuable man, and was desperately afraid of losing this girl.

Project much?
Here Ms. Autumn sings about a “red pill” marriage.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

They just don’t want to remove coercion from their “seduction” toolkit.

Of course not. That’s why endless posts are written by them on dealing with LMR (Last Minute Resistance, a.k.a no means yes), ASD (Anti-Slut Defenses), “false” rape accusations, and other manifestations of their boner-driven and depraved misperceptions of women’s behavior.

@wordsp1nner:

Yes, redpillian “logic” is something to, um, behold. There are holes in it the size of War Rigs, but this very same “logic,” warped beyond recognition by narcissistic projections and other cognitive biases, makes it impossible for them to notice that. It is hard to respond to something that perversely irrational, especially knowing that one will encounter more of the same in return. What remains is to marvel at those fellas’ willful (?) blindness and inhumanity.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

@Lea:

They are rapists

Yes; bottom line.

katelynjecmen
katelynjecmen
5 years ago

Considering this is the very reason I suffer every day, I am going to have to disagree with them that coercion isn’t a bad thing, if it wasn’t I wouldn’t have nightmares because of it, it wouldn’t cause me anxiety and panic attacks. and it certainly wouldn’t leave me depressed and suicidal at times either. So fuck their “logic” its utter rapey bullshit!

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

@wordsp1nner:

Lemme fill in the blanks there:

I think to misogynists, “agency” and “responsibility” and “consequences” means “women should be forced to deal with whatever men do to them in the way men choose, because if they didn’t want that man to do that, they shouldn’t have existed.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

This is very off topic, but is there anyone online who is could a,t speaking with someone who is feeling suicidal and who either has a Gawker account or is willing to make one really quick? There’s a comment thread with someone who is having a crisis and I’ve tried to be helpful but don’t know that I am. This person (I don’t their gender) is apparently trans and was triggered by a transphobic tweet, so someone who is trans also might be especially helpful. It’s been a awhile since they’ve posted (a couple hours) so I don’t know if they’re still online or even physically okay, but here’s the link http://gawker.com/last-night-i-was-so-close-to-killing-myself-then-readi-1705904796

Tanya Nguyen
5 years ago

Sometimes it is hard, especially for teens new to the whole sex thing, to understand consent. There’s that whole “I really like him, but dad says to save myself for god” voice, and the “good girls say no” that mom tells daughters. and boys are told “she will say no at first, this is ok, just get her to say yes”.

but the issue isn’t that CONSENT is grey, it’s that we don’t f’ing teach our kids how to ask for, gain, and accept the answer given in relation to consent in sex. We spend so much time teaching them these nonsense sterotypes, and very little doing things like “yes means yes, son. It’s ok to try to get a yes, but without one, it’s always NO”. etc.

Until we are honest and open with all our kids, we will continue this “I don’t understand what consent is” or “it was a grey area” sillyness.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Our detractors assume women are idiots, and therefore, it should be a federal offence to ever attempt to coerce a woman into sex, because women that agree to be with such men are apparently, by definition, mentally impaired.

No, dude, that’s not how it is. Your detractors see YOU as idiots, because you ARE. You seriously think that no-consent sex with an unwilling person is a good idea? You’re an idiot.

And while I would certainly question why a woman would “agree” (under duress) to be with a guy like you, that doesn’t mean I think that she is “apparently, by definition, mentally impaired”. She’s not the one deserving of harsh judgment. The onus is still on YOU, the would-be coercive sex-haver, to respect the word NO. It is YOU whom we will judge.

And we will judge the motherfucking hell out of you.

The modern, anti-Red-Pill viewpoint is that no woman would ever put up with that garbage. The only correct choice is for that woman to dump the “abusive” shithead she’s dating (because any attempt to coerce a woman into sex is automatically “abuse.” You’re supposed to buy her jewelry every weekend, not say a word about sex, and hope she fucks you out of the goodness of her heart).

Well, the first sentence is almost true, but it’s missing a few words. No woman SHOULD ever HAVE to put up with your garbage. That’s not merely a “modern, anti-Red-Pill viewpoint”, though, that’s FACT. And yes, dumping an abusive shithead is an excellent idea, one that I’d heartily endorse any time. Men simply must learn not to be abusive shitheads. If he’s at all intelligent, he will learn that lesson without having to be dumped for abusive shitheadery first.

But that last bit? Um, nowhere does it say that you have to “buy her jewelry every weekend”. You made that shit up! Likewise, “not say a word about sex”? What do you think we are, prudes? We won’t wilt at the mere mention of it, you moron. If you want it, you can ask. If we don’t want it, we can say no. And if we say no, you respect that no. And don’t try to weasel it into a “yes” on the basis of “the goodness of her heart”, because pity is not sexy, and whining is not foreplay!

W]omen are naturally turned on by and attracted to older, established, successful men. But if a man takes advantage of this — he’s wrong. He’s bad.

Wrong again. Women are not naturally attracted to older men just because they’re older (and supposedly more established and successful). I talked about this on another thread, but it bears repeating: Most young women do not want to sleep with a man who reminds them too much of Dad or Grandpa. And yes, it IS wrong and bad to take advantage of this ludicrous myth, which is media-manufactured and awfully long of life. Taking advantage of a young woman’s impressionability and confusion is a downright shitty thing to do. If you’re old enough to try that, you are old enough to know better. And if you know better and do it anyway, you’re an evil old fuck.

It becomes politically incorrect to use your advantages to attract women. You should date somebody your own age.

Wrong again. See above. Add to this that it’s not “politically correct” to date within your own age group; it’s merely commonplace, because people of similar ages tend to find that their viewpoints and interests coincide more readily than those with large age gaps between them. And it tends to put them on a more equal footing, too. If that’s “politically correct”, then so what? What’s so sexy about inequality, anyway? Last time an older man tried to push his luck with me, I was not attracted — I was actively repulsed! And I made good and sure never to be alone with him again.

What about beauty? If age and status boost men’s SMV, then beauty and youth are women’s equivalent. Feminists don’t seem to care that a young beautiful woman has such an enormous amount of power, they can make a living off of just having tits, control men, get men to buy them things, and a variety of other things.

Wrong, wrong again. Dude, quit wanking over Anna Nicole Smith. She’s long dead, and she’s a damn poor example of whatever idiotic point you’re trying to make. She did not have a lot of power; she merely married an elderly man with a lot of money. She spent years in and out of court trying to get her share of it from his other heirs (i.e., his grown children) after the old coot died. And she herself died tragically young, as a result of drug addiction, which all that money didn’t exactly help her with. She was certainly not an empowered individual, no matter how big her breast implants were.

Women aren’t stupid or incapable of reason.

Well, that’s the one true thing this idiot has actually said. Stopped clock, two whole seconds out of every 24 hours. Whoopee!

Unfortunately, he doesn’t leave it there:

We just happen to live in a society where narcissistic bitches are lavished with attention and praised, and women never have to grow up, so the odds are that one or more women you date during your lifetime will behave in a manner that’s frankly kind of childish, and that you don’t want to validate. (insert obligatory “not all women” and “men too sometimes” language here so that nobody bothers replying with that idiocy)

Dude, stop wanking over Kim Kardashian. PLEASE. She’s only “lavished with attention and praised” because that’s what tabloids do…they devote reams of paper to boring-ass celebrities who are famous for no good reason, in order to make idiots like you grind your gears with envy and buy all kinds of useless shit in the vain hope that somehow it will get you laid.

Contrast that with feminism, which is advocating for a complete removal of all agency and responsibility from women, just not using those words because then it sounds stupid.

Well, yeah, it sounds stupid. But that’s because we’re not actually doing that. YOU are. You’re the ones advocating taking advantage of vulnerable younger women, remember? And you really would like to see them have no agency, too, because agency means they have the right to refuse you, and you have no choice but to respect that refusal.

Feminism seeks laws that remove agency from women. Did she have any alcohol in her system, then later regret sex? Rape. Man’s fault. Did she say yes, but not clearly and enthusiastically? Rape. Man’s fault. In a few years, you’ll probably see them push for expanding the definition of statutory rape to include an age difference of more than a certain amount (because a 35 year old man with a steady job dating a 21-year-old in college is clearly all about power and manipulation, because young women definitely aren’t attracted to good looks and social status and financial stability.)

OMG, this is truly beyond idiotic by now. There just isn’t enough facepalm in the universe.

Could somebody please post some kitties? I have run out of even to can’t, again.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Hugs if they’re wanted, Katelyn.

Lady Mondegreen
Lady Mondegreen
5 years ago

Words. What do they mean? How do they work?

co·erce
kōˈərs/
verb
persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.
“they were coerced into silence”
synonyms: pressure, pressurize, press, push, constrain; More
obtain (something) by using force or threats.
“their confessions were allegedly coerced by torture”

What I want to know is, if they have to coerce women to have sex with them, how can they consider themselves “alphas”?

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago
wordsp1nner
5 years ago

Bina,

Your wish is my command:

https://youtu.be/PyA9aC8GBqg

Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
Scented Fucking Hard Chairs
5 years ago

It becomes politically incorrect to use your advantages to attract women. You should date somebody your own age.

Since nobody really cares too much about 50-year-old guys dating 25-year-old women (except other misogynists who rail on about “Gold diggers”), this makes me think that he’s yet another manospherian paedophile.

Lady Mondegreen
Lady Mondegreen
5 years ago

only correct choice is for that woman to dump the “abusive” shithead she’s dating (because any attempt to coerce a woman into sex is automatically “abuse.” You’re supposed to buy her jewelry every weekend, not say a word about sex, and hope she fucks you out of the goodness of her heart).

False dichotomy dude. Way to logic.

Notice how they advertise to the world how very unsexy they are. The only reason a woman would fuck them is if she’s coerced or bribed.

I can certainly believe that.

katelynjecmen
katelynjecmen
5 years ago

Thank you weirwoodtreehugger. It’s just so disheartening to see people going on about how they think what they are doing is good regardless of the harm another suffers. Essentially what these d-bags do whenever they post is to gaslight and smoke screen, its like they have absorbed so much rapey “logic” they actually think its truth. Hmmm seems gaslight begets gaslight perhaps

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Don’t take the red pill. You will become a rapist, abusive and stupid as you see here. Consult your doctor about taking the pink pill if you are a woman or the blue pill if you are a man for better results of becoming a better and happier person. Have a nice day. 🙂

lkeke35
5 years ago

Broke sea: great video. I’ve never seen that before.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Kittysquee! And goofy dawg squee! Now I can go to bed happy. Thanks, guys!

Bryce
Bryce
5 years ago

One thing here, you can’t really argue that an age gap between adults necessitates coercion. If she were destitute, certainly, but that’s something else. While such a relationship is questionable, I doubt anyone would label a 35 year old woman hooking up with a 21 year old as rapey (more likely the guy would be considered lucky to be with an “experienced” woman. )

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

One thing here, you can’t really argue that an age gap between adults necessitates coercion. If she were destitute, certainly, but that’s something else. While such a relationship is questionable, I doubt anyone would label a 35 year old woman hooking up with a 21 year old as rapey (more likely the guy would be considered lucky to be with an “experienced” woman. )

Uh, aren’t you forgetting something? Namely, that men tend to rely on power differentials in age-gap relationships, while women generally don’t, because they are less powerful in society anyway? That’s why the reverse situation is generally not considered “rapey” — but rather more of a joke (think “desperate aging woman latching on to hot toyboy just to prove she’s still got it”.)

Viscaria
Viscaria
5 years ago

What about beauty? If age and status boost men’s SMV, then beauty and youth are women’s equivalent.

If all you have is a red pill hammer, I guess everything must start to look like an SMV nail. Since Redpillschool can’t think of anything that could create a power differential other than being attractive, here’s a quick list to get him started:

– money
– credibility
– maturity of decision making
– experience with manipulation
– contacts
– independence

Well golly gee, it sure looks like most of those would benefit grown adults over teenagers. Who would have thunk.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

A mismatched age relationship is not inherently coercive as long as everyone is an adult. There are certainly healthy relationships with an age gap. What sets off a red flag is when a mid thirties or older person specifically seeks out the barely legal. That to me, indicates someone seeking a partner they can control. That’s different than happening to meet and fall for someone considerably younger. As a 35 year old woman, I would side eye a woman my age who looks for guys barely out of high school.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

a sniveling loser who had to resort to insecure, jealous, and controlling behavior because he didn’t have options with other women, wasn’t an attractive or valuable man, and was desperately afraid of losing this girl.

But…but…isn’t this every redpill relationship ever?

You’re supposed to…hope she fucks you out of the goodness of her heart

That’s pretty sad, and revealing. Clearly, they’ve never had sex/can’t imagine having sex with a woman who enjoys it. Nope, it has to be dragged reluctantly out of her, using force or manipulation or trickery.

the odds are that one or more women you date during your lifetime will behave in a manner that’s frankly kind of childish

Setting aside the fact that “childish”, in this context, means “disagrees with you or does something you don’t like”, this dude is advocating for guys dating women 15 – 20 years their junior, and then he’s getting all annoyed that sometimes she might act in an immature manner? He really has absolutely no self-awareness.

EJ (The Other One)
EJ (The Other One)
5 years ago

“This guy was a loser. Don’t do what he did. He doesn’t represent Red Pill at all. But, uh, nothing he did was wrong. These are perfectly acceptable Red Pill things to do.”

Yes, it’s time once again for the internet’s favourite game: NAME! THAT! FALLACY!

(With apologies to the Skeptic’s Guide to the Universe podcast.)

Moggie
Moggie
5 years ago

The redpill dictionary must be a fascinating read.

agency (noun): the freedom to do what you’re told by your owner.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Thanks for posting those Amille Autumn videos Lea. Those two songs were my first thought too.

And thanks to brokensea for the tea analogy. I first saw it on tumble, and it’s made explaining consent to douchebags so much easier!

And finally, thanks for the brainbleach. I’m going to go watch Loca the Pug again myself. If you’d like to see it too (apologies, I’m on mobile):

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=x2RJN9a_jdM

rugbyyogi
5 years ago

When the only kind of “women” you seek to have interaction with are really girls who probably have had something going on in their lives to make them susceptible to this redpillian PUA crap, then it’s no surprise that these guys say “women” are immature and childish.

I don’t currently know that many teenage girls, but I do know some very young women just out of their teens and I’m around a lot of teenage boys – and they astonish me with their ability to be quite mature on some occasions and completely irrational and childish on others. But that’s to be expected for people on the cusp of adulthood. (I hope one day – in the next few years – to coach teenage girls, so I expect I’ll get a lovely refresher into just how the pendulum can swing from mature to immature – and my son is edging toward those years, himself)

Even ‘grown-ups’ can behave this way, I think we (most of us) just have a higher ratio of mature behaviour to immature behaviour.

Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
Pandapool -- The Species that Endangers YOU (aka Banana Jackie Cake, for those who still want to call me "Banana", "Jackie" or whatever)
5 years ago

Even ‘grown-ups’ can behave this way, I think we (most of us) just have a higher ratio of mature behaviour to immature behaviour.

http://i.imgur.com/8KycExM.gif

spacelawn
5 years ago

I’ve been lurking here for a while now and these redpillers never seizes to amaze. You might think you come across the most awful thing these idiots have said and then the next day, they say shite like. Jesus H. christ.

steampunked (@steampunked)

It’s kind of odd that they always want women to grow up into young girls who never age.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

Aren’t these men who insist women are like children, also the same ones who insist that teenagers are capable of making life decisions, and count as being sexually mature?

It isn’t Feminists that keep making the adult/child equivalence, assholes.

I kind of wish the Terpers would start reinforcing the narrative that “Real Men Don’t Rape/ Coerce/ Abuse”. They come so close, and then justify all those shitty behaviours as being truly alpha manly after all. They are all atavisms.

sevenofmine
5 years ago

Our detractors assume women are idiots, and therefore, it should be a federal offence to ever attempt to coerce a woman into sex, because women that agree to be with such men are apparently, by definition, mentally impaired.

Ugh. Dude. If you have coerced someone to do something for/with/to you, they have not, in fact, agreed to do that thing because that’s what “coerced” fucking means. Your detractors think you are idiots because it’s apparently always opposite day in your heads. We also, by the way, think you’re rapists because that’s what coerced sex is.

BECAUSE WORDS! *flail*

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

Hrm. Red Pillers must live in a fantasy land that they can presume consent by gifts. “I’m going to buy her this, therefore she will give me that.” It’s a reversal that they accuse feminists treat women like children, yet they will resort to tactics child molesters do to groom their victims by buying them toys and candy for the sole purpose to establish that “special relationship” with them. Yeah, I kind of threw up in my mouth typing that.

The bottom line is this:

Nobody is entitled to touch another person without consent. That’s why we have laws against assault and battery. Nobody is entitled to have sex with another person without consent. That’s why we have laws against rape. Nobody is entitled to come into verbal or written contact with someone without consent, which is why we have laws against harassment.

No consent? No contact! Simples. Applying power disparity as leverage for sexual entitlement does not count as “consent,” either.

I almost feel embarrassed having to point out something so immediately obvious. If these guys ever wondered why people believe they are rapists or molesters, this is exactly why. True mature adults don’t base their sexual encounters on manipulation or bullshit gift bargaining. They engage with women as adults and as equals without resorting to childish abuse and violent tantrums. Dear red pillers – if you cannot muster the bare minimum capacity to do this simple and basic thing required for dignified social interaction, then do society a favor and stay the hell away from women and children entirely. The only way to guarantee consent is if you decide to go fuck yourself, that’s the only way to be absolutely sure!

Olive O'Sudden
Olive O'Sudden
5 years ago

Actually, consent isn’t quite as simple as tea, as Emily Nagoski explains rather beautifully:
http://www.thedirtynormal.com/blog/2015/05/14/the-one-reason-i-havent-shared-that-teaconsent-thing/

gilshalos
5 years ago

I’m currently re-reading Sheri S Tepper – Gibbon’s Decline and Fall.
It is scary how mch these men are like the enemies in that book.
I used to think that it was exaggerating, now…

NicolaLuna
NicolaLuna
5 years ago

I’m so freaking sick of women (according to TRP/ general patriarchy) being way too immature to make decisions they don’t want us to make but being super duper mature if we agree with their decisions.

So when, at 14 I was having sex with drug dealers so I could get free drugs, I was totally taking advantage of them by using my tits? I was totally in the wrong. Not the 25-30yr old dealers fucking a child and giving her drugs.

However, now I’m 28 and have 2 children (have been drug free for almost 9 years) and I want to be sterilised, I’m too young. I’m literally not allowed to get sterilised because “what if you meet a nice man who wants kids” … like I’m his baby factory?

Heads – men win. Tails – women lose.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

@NicolaLuna, gratz on staying drug free for nine years, that’s awesome!

Ya, I’ve never seen any MRAdjacent explain how they can demand the legal equivalent of an abortion, and accuse women of “trapping” men with pregnancy without taking into consideration the sexist ideology of the medical establishment.

Nameless Wonder
Nameless Wonder
5 years ago

@Olive, establishing consent should be simple, though, don’t you think? Yes means yes, ect.

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

@fruitloopsie “Don’t take the red pill. You will become a rapist, abusive and stupid as you see here. ”

Yep. People can only get worse from buying into that stuff.

And for those who already are stupid, abusive, rapey types to begin with, taking the red pill helps them to suppress unwanted symptoms like “feelings of empathy” and “feelings of guilt over being a disgusting rapist”, and find manlojiky reasons to justify their abusive rapey ways. I visualise it as some sort of continuous loop of aweful-justification/reinforcement/amplification.

Be stupid, abusive, rapey guy-> read red pill (justify your beliefs and actions to yourself/learn new techniques to be more abusive rapey guy)-> continue to be/become more of a stupid, abusive, rapey guy-> continue to read red pill-> continue to be/become more of a stupid, abusive, rapey guy-> continue to read red pill-> etc.

Continuous, soul-rotting, loop.

proxieme
proxieme
5 years ago

The modern, anti-Red-Pill viewpoint is that no woman would ever put up with that garbage. The only correct choice is for that woman to dump the “abusive” shithead she’s dating (because any attempt to coerce a woman into sex is automatically “abuse.” You’re supposed to buy her jewelry every weekend, not say a word about sex, and hope she fucks you out of the goodness of her heart).

For a group of men who go on and on (and onandonandon) about their natural wiles, they sure seem to suck at simple fucking seduction.

NEWS FLASH: A woman doesn’t generally have sex with you out of the goodness of her heart and shouldn’t have to out of fear. She has sex with you (…wait for it…) because she wants to have sex. With you.
As a married hetero CIS woman, I have sex with my husband because he does wonderful things to my body and mind with his body and mind. I gather that this is reciprocal ^_^
[Note to any RPers: I began to write in detail about exactly what went through my mind when I thought about having sex with my husband this morning, but it quickly became a bit too graphic/pornographic for this blog. Women – at least the women you don’t have to coerceenjoy sex…at least they do if you’re doing it right.]

Rockstar Dinosaur Pirate Princess

Interesting timing as yesterday I got a comment on the blog I wrote about consent being as simple as a cup of tea that said:

“It is simple: without protest, there is no rape.”

Rockstar Dinosaur Pirate Princess

Just realised other people had already linked to my tea/consent blog 🙂

Thanks other people!

proxieme
proxieme
5 years ago

Lea said:

Assholes wanting to put their dicks in you is not power.

Word.
Especially as a young woman/developed girl, having random assholes yell stuff at you and follow you around makes you feel so, so incredibly powerless that it breaks my heart to know that my eldest is quickly approaching that age.
I went into a depression around the 6th grade because I went from being able to be a carefree, goofy kid to having to deal with the constant verbal assault of older boys and men many years my senior. It wasn’t any sort of conscious decision, but wearing mostly baggy grey, black, and brown, crying at random times, and not really brushing my fine and tangle prone hair did do something to stem that tide.

*about to hit “post”, gets pissed off again*

And these assholes FUCKING KNOW IT.

They KNOW that that kind of behavior robs girls and women of their power, their sense of self, their ability to operate autonomously in the public sphere. That’s why they do it.
ASSHOLES.

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