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Is the bigot-fighting Southern Poverty Law Center the REAL hate group? One Men’s Rights butthead says “yes.”

Is the Klan-fighting Southern Poverty Law Center the real hate group? One angry butthead says
Hey, Dean Esmay — are these really the guys you want on your side?

The not-so-good folks at A Voice for Men are still so steamed about the Southern Poverty Law Center calling them out on their misogyny that they can’t think straight. Consider the unhinged anti-SPLC rant AVFM’s “chief operations officer” Dean Esmay posted on the site after the SPLC’s Mark Potok appeared on David Pakman’s internet show last week.

In his interview with Pakman, posted below, Potok acknowledged once again that the SPLC had not named any Men’s Rights website a “hate group.” But he also made clear that the SPLC doesn’t list any website as a “hate group” — not even the viciously racist and anti-Semitic Stormfront — because to be a hate group you need to be, well, a group, and not a website.

In fact, as Potok told Pakman, he’s seen “an incredible amount of misogyny, an incredible amount of defamation of women” in the Manosphere. “The websites are filled with incredible vitriol,” he added.

Just to give an example to our listeners, Paul Elam, the guy who runs A Voice for Men, and who is considered in many ways the leader of this anti-woman movement, for a long time had a website called Register-Her.com … [which] was a vile site that put up pictures, sometimes personal information … of various enemies of the Men’s Rights movement.

Some of those people are feminists, some of those people are women [like] Lorena Bobbitt — ok, she wasn’t very friendly to men — but an enormous number are simply women who in some way identify as feminist, who some way have offended the men in the Men’s Rights movement, women who are guilty of no crime, and yet this website said these women should be prosecuted, they should be in jail.

And there’s a huge amount of harassment, internet harassment of women who … say something publicly about feminism or sexism or misogyny. 

He’s not quite right on one detail here; AVFM didn’t actually end up putting any personal information — at least in the form of addresses, phone numbers and the like — on Register-Her. Elam just threatened to, repeatedly, and offered thousand-dollar bounties to those who were able to deliver the personal info of some women the AVFMers were unable to track down. But the rest is of course correct.

Potok noted that in his view “there are absolutely legitimate beefs that men have,” including bias towards women in family courts. “That said,” he continued,

I would say that legitimate complaints are very much the minority of what you see on these websites. Most of it is just untrammeled hatred directed at women.

He also brought up the Philosophy of Rape subreddit, devoted to the “corrective rape” of “harlots” (I wrote about it here) and the rabidly antifeminist and anti-woman mass murderers Marc Lepine and Elliot Rodger.

Well, Potok’s appearance on the show seems to have sent Esmay over the edge. In his AVFM post, he declared Potok, a “sociopathic, reactionary bigot,” a “rich fatcat tool of the corporate establishment,” and (somewhat redundantly) “a fatcat corporate weasel who just happens to dress a little like an old hippie.” He also described Potok as a “snake … in Dockers,” which is odd, because neither snakes nor old hippies are known to favor khakis.

Esmay wants the world to know (he’s got to let it show):

I want the world to know I have said this, and I mean it: the Southern Poverty Law Center is a multimillion $$ fraud organization that makes its money by spreading fear and hate and ignorance – mostly in the form of slanted half-truths- about innocent people who can’t fight back.

This is a rather, well, interesting take on the noted civil rights organization. If you look on the SPLC website, to be sure, you will find quite a number of “innocent people who can’t fight back,” among them:

Migrant farmworker Victor Marquez [who] was traveling to his hometown in Querétero, Mexico, to pay for his new home, only to have his life savings seized by police who alleged it was drug money.

Guest workers from India, lured by false promises of permanent U.S. residency, paid tens of thousands of dollars each to obtain temporary jobs at Gulf Coast shipyards only to find themselves forced into involuntary servitude and living in overcrowded, guarded labor camps.

There’s just one problem with Esmay’s analysis: the SPLC didn’t spread “fear and hate and ignorance” and/or “slanted half-truths” about these men. It filed lawsuits on their behalf.

The SPLC got the State of Alabama to return the $19,000 that Victor Marquez has earned not from selling drugs but from picking beans. In the case of the Indian guest workers, SPLC’s federal lawsuit forced Signal International to cough up $14 million in damages to five men the company had duped and exploited.

Indeed, if you look through the lawsuits listed on the SPLC website, you will see example after example of the group working on behalf of, well, “innocent people who can’t fight back,” from trans men facing discrimination on the job to prisoners (adult and juvenile) enduring horrific conditions and abuse to guest workers getting ripped off by their employers to immigrants denied marriage licenses to lesbian, gay and transgender youth facing bullying at school.

The SPLC has been famously successful in a number of cases, not only providing justice to people who wouldn’t have otherwise had the resources to bring cases on their own but also helping to eradicate unjust and illegal practices. In Austin V. Jones and  Hope v. Pelzer, for example, the SPLC not only assisted abused prisoners seeking redress but brought the end of “hitching posts” and chain gangs in the Alabama prison system.

The SPLC has also, as an article on the site points out,

crippled some of the nation’s largest and most violent hate groups by helping victims of racial violence sue for monetary damages. Its victories include a $7 million verdict against the United Klans of America in 1987 for the lynching of Michael Donald in Mobile, Ala.; a $12.4 million verdict against the White Aryan Resistance in 1990 for the brutal murder of an Ethiopian student in Portland; and a $6.3 million verdict against the Aryan Nations in 2000 that forced the organization to give up its 20-acre compound in Idaho.

And in Macedonia v. Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,

The Christian Knights of the KKK, its state leader, and four other Klansmen were ordered to pay $37.8 million, later reduced by a judge to $21.5 million, for their conspiracy to burn a black church.

The civil judgment forced the Klan to give up its land and headquarters. When the property was sold, the deed included a restriction that the land never be used for white supremacist activities.

The judgment in this case transformed the Christian Knights from one of the most active Klan groups in the nation to a defunct organization.

So who exactly are these “innocent people” who Esmay thinks the SPLC is tarring with “slanted half-truths?” Esmay gets a little more specific later on in his rant, accusing the SPLC of

instigating spin and slander indiscriminately against anyone who might deviate somewhat from mainstream opinion (or just opinions not liked by the elites who rule us).

Esmay doesn’t provide any actual examples of these allegedly “slandered” people he thinks have been unfairly targeted by the SPLC because their thoughts “deviate somewhat from mainstream opinion”  — perhaps because, if he were to actually start listing any of the extremists that the SPLC tracks, it would quickly become obvious that their opinions are, not to put to fine a point on it, hateful as shit.

Here’s a list of the various kinds of hate groups and individuals that the SPLC tracks:

  • Anti-Immigrant
  • Anti-LGBT
  • Anti-Muslim
  • Black Separatist
  • Christian Identity
  • Holocaust Denial
  • Ku Klux Klan
  • Neo-Confederate
  • Neo-Nazi
  • Patriot Movement
  • Phineas Priesthood
  • Racist Music
  • Racist Skinhead
  • Radical Traditional Catholicism
  • Sovereign Citizens Movement
  • White Nationalist

Most of these categories are pretty self-explanatory. But in case you haven’t been following the ins and the outs of the American far right over the past several decades: “Christian Identity” is a violently racist, anti-Semitic and only “nominally Christian” ideology that arose in the 1980s; “Neo-Confederates” are fans of the old south, slavery and all, and not big fans of democracy or gay people; the “Patriot Movement” is an antigovernment movement of mostly white dudes suffused with racism, nativism and a love of guns; “Radical Traditional Catholicism” is a rabidly anti-Semitic splinter sect “rejected by the Vatican and some 70 million mainstream American Catholics” but embraced by Mel Gibson and his dad. “Sovereign Citizens” are a sort of Time-Cubed band of tax protesters, some of whom are white and racist as fuck, and some whom are black and “unaware of their beliefs’ origins.”

Yeah, the Sovereign Citizen thing is weird.

I hadn’t heard of the Phineas Priesthood myself. Evidently it’s a term white supremacists use to describe those who’ve murdered interracial couples or otherwise violently attacked “Jews, non-whites, multiculturalists and others seen as enemies.”

Huh. It’s funny, but I’m not seeing a lot of good-but-misunderstood souls on this list.

Now remember: Esmay doesn’t just think that the SPLC has wrongly included a few non-hateful folks (like, presumably, him) alongside real extremists in its “extremist files.”

Esmay, as he so proudly “want[s] the world to know I have said,” is accusing the SPLC of being “a multimillion $$ fraud organization that makes its money by spreading fear and hate and ignorance.” And he thinks that most of this alleged “fear and hate and ignorance” comes “in the form of slanted half-truths- about innocent people who can’t fight back.”

So either Esmay honestly thinks that most of those on the SPLC’s big list of bigots aren’t actually bigots at all — thus aligning himself with some of the most hateful shits in the known universe — or he’s deliberately lying about an organization that has done more to help “innocent people who can’t fight back” than his foul website could do in a million billion years (and that’s only if we ignore all the bad that the website does that puts its moral balance sheet perpetually in the red).

Actually, that’s not really fair to Esmay. It’s possible that he’s neither a secret Nazi nor a compulsive liar but rather an over-excitable ideological hack who simply has no fucking idea what he’s talking about.

This is hardly the end of Esmay’s false accusations against the SPLC. He continues his absurdities by claiming that the SPLC is a “contemptible terrorist-inspiring organization” that “has helped incite murder.” Esmay’s “evidence” for this assertion?  A blog post by a right-wing ideologue that links to a story in the right-wing Weekly Standard that sort of half-suggests that the SPLC may have half-inspired the murder of three Muslim students in Chapel Hill, North Carolina … because the accused killer “liked” the SPLC on Facebook.

Esmay might have had a point here if the SPLC were, you know, an organization that devoted all of its energy to inciting hate and violence against Muslims.

Trouble is, as you may recall from earlier, the SPLC is quite explicitly opposed to anti-Muslim bigotry; indeed, the group has profiled a number of prominent Muslim-haters and includes some two dozen “Active Anti-Muslim Groups” in its database of hate groups. Wherever the accused killer in Chapel Hill learned his anti-Muslim hate — and there is certainly no shortage of places he could have — it wasn’t on the SPLC Facebook page.

Should I bother to point out that the misogynistic mass murderer Elliot Rodger was a regular commenter on PUAhate, a site soaked in misogyny — and whose most famous moderator at the time was a fellow who goes by the name of Aaron Sleazy? You know, the same Aaron Sleazy who, under his real name Jalon Cain, wrote 10 articles for A Voice for Men? (His final article there: a bizarre attempt to blame Rodger’s killings on “gynocentrism” that somehow neglects to mention his own role at PUAhate.)

Esmay is not only dead wrong about the big issues; he throws in some little white lies as well. Upset that Pakman didn’t hit him up for the alleged truth about the SPLC before bringing Potok on his show, Esmay complains that

Pakman has not so much as approached us to comment before allowing the odious hate group known as the SPLC bash the innocent men and women of the Men’s Human Rights Movement, who are incredibly easy to find and talk to (me and Paul can be reached right here).

Well, there are few lies there, but it’s the last one that gets me. You know, the one about Esmay and his boss Paul Elam being “incredibly easy to find and talk to.”

The other day, as some of you may know, I tried to contact Elam and Esmay to point out that they had published a number of posts by a literal Holocaust denier and Hitler fan on AVFM and ask them what they intended to do about this.

Elam blocked me on Twitter, making clear he wasn’t taking any questions from me. And the “incredibly easy to … talk to” Esmay sent me this nice note:

Dean Esmay 10:50 AM (8 hours ago) to me Never write me again, Mr. Futrelle. Your desperate desire to hold onto your own relevance is not of interest to me. Publish what you will, everyone sane knows you're a professional liar who gets his money on the backs of the bruised and helpless, like a socipathic sadist. If you write me again I will contact the police. Stay away, stalker madman.

At the time I assumed that Esmay was playing a bit of the old “kill the messenger” game in an attempt to avoid dealing with the fact that the site he’s the “managing editor” of had, you know, published a number of posts by a literal Holocaust denier and Hitler fan.

But maybe I was too kind. Could it be that Esmay thinks that Holocaust-denial and Hitler-love are just examples of slight “deviat[ions] … from mainstream opinion (or just opinions not liked by the elites who rule us)” that are so unfairly judged by big meanies like the SPLC?

Mr. Esmay, on the off-chance you are still open to questions: Is Holocaust denial one of those “Men’ Human Rights” that AVFM likes to talk so much about?

And if I may be allowed a followup: What do you have against Dockers, anyway?

I guess we’ll never know, because the chance that Esmay will respond to these questions or this post, if he does at all, with anything even approaching honesty or logic or even correct grammar is pretty damn slim.

Here’s the Pakman interview with Potok:

Oh, wait, that was actually a Dockers commercial from 1988. Here’s the real interview.

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Scott Hamilton (@Scopi)

There was a point where the FBI thought there was a serial killer calling himself the Phineas Priesthood. Not sure what happened with that. The FBI didn’t make the information that led them to that conclusion public, so it’s a little hard to tell.

M.
M.
5 years ago

In his interview with Pakman, posted below, Potok acknowledged once again that the SPLC had not named any Men’s Rights website a “hate group.” But he also made clear that the SPLC doesn’t list any website as a “hate group” — not even the viciously racist and anti-Semitic Stormfront — because to be a hate group you need to be, well, a group, and not a website.

There’s absolutely no reason for them to not add the manosphere as a whole to their extremist files, though.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

@M
What with the guy in the previous post blaming a woman’s death on…well…women, the reasons for the SPLC toadd the manosphere to their extremist files are growing.

M.
M.
5 years ago

… instigating spin and slander indiscriminately against anyone who might deviate somewhat from mainstream opinion (or just opinions not liked by the elites who rule us).

Because being against racism and homophobia is mainstream opinion (especially in red states!) and all of those lawsuits against the government David mentioned were imaginary. Yep. That’s the ticket.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

Which by the way is exactly what I hear whenever MRAs try and say that “crimes against men” or “misandry” is to blame if a woman is murdered by a man. Any woman, any man.

“Feminism makes men kill women!” = “female murder victims had it coming because women are all equally awful, no matter what this individual did or didn’t do.”

naira8
5 years ago

The “Phineas” part of Phineas Priesthood may reference a scene in which Phineas, Aaron’s grandson, killed an Israelite who was going off with a Midianite woman during another bout of the Israelites screwing up. Numbers 25:7 is the start of the story. It is violent so, be warned.

AAAtheist
5 years ago

AVFM wants to believe it isn’t a hate group the way bank robbers want to believe they’re innocent despite being smeared with dye pack ink.

“I dare say that if social justice and equal protection under the law were all that the MRM were about, then the SPLC would have had no reason to write about it.”

– Arthur Goldwag, SPLC

Lordcrowstaff
Lordcrowstaff
5 years ago

“I want the world to know I have said this, and I mean it: the Southern Poverty Law Center is a multimillion $$ fraud organization that makes its money by spreading fear and hate and ignorance – mostly in the form of slanted half-truths- about innocent people who can’t fight back.”

That’s about the only thing Mr. Elam actually does have experience in.

gorillaella
5 years ago

Anyone who disagrees even slightly with Paulie and Dean are automatically branded as a “sociopath”. Do they even know what the word means? Paulie and Dean – sounds like singers in a boy band.

flagalicious
flagalicious
5 years ago

Outstanding journalism here, thank you.

Falconer
5 years ago

@naira8: That’s my understanding of the term’s origins.

Here’s David Neiwert on a bombing in Spokane by a group that actually claimed the title “Phineas Priesthood.”

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Cry more Dean. Your MRA tears are delicious.

Nitram
5 years ago

Awesome post David! Really well done, well written, backed up and painstakingly full of examples/evidence. This should be the “go to” post for hatemongers who call real civil rights Groups “bigots”. Sick of them hijacking that word.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

instigating spin and slander indiscriminately against anyone who might deviate somewhat from mainstream opinion (or just opinions not liked by the elites who rule us).

Oh, FFS. They’re acting like the SPLC are the John Lithgow to their Kevin Bacon, as if it’s some kind of humorless steamroller crushing all the fun and rebellion out of all those poor widdle powerless groups of white men who Stand For Something. (Never mind that the the “something” they stand for is that they want to be the elites crushing rebellion and fun from powerless immigrants, minorities, women, etc. So much projection from these guys, all the time. Just once, you wish the damn film would catch on fire.)

No, bigotry isn’t simply an unpopular opinion, akin to preferring oatmeal raisin to chocolate chip or thinking Futurama isn’t funny. Bigotry is an unpopular opinion that translates directly into real harm to individuals, institutions, and society. Murders. Violence. Harassment. Discrimination. Human trafficking. That’s what the SPLC is working against. Just look at that list – that’s some pretty vile company the manosphere is aligning themselves with.

Sorry, guys. You have to share this planet with a wide variety of other humans, all of whom are entitled at birth to basic dignity and autonomy. It’s too bad that uncomfortable fact feels to you like a descending jackboot.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

As a proud supporter of the SPLC, I thank you for this excellent post, David.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
5 years ago

The SPLC got the State of Alabama to return the $19,000 that Victor Marquez has earned not from selling drugs but from picking beans. In the case of the Indian guest workers, SPLC’s federal lawsuit forced Signal International to cough up $14 million in damages to five men the company had duped and exploited.

Indeed, if you look through the lawsuits listed on the SPLC website, you will see example after example of the group working on behalf of, well, “innocent people who can’t fight back,” from trans men facing discrimination on the job to prisoners (adult and juvenile) enduring horrific conditions and abuse to guest workers getting ripped off by their employers to immigrants denied marriage licenses to lesbian, gay and transgender youth facing bullying at school.

From just those two paragraphs I think that you can conclude that the Southern Poverty Law Center has done more for men than all of the MRM has managed to accomplish, ever (I won’t point fingers at AVfM in particular, since Elam recently announced that their raison d’etre is shouting on the internet). Amazing how the SPLC has time for all that, what with being so corporate and evil and full of faux-hippie weasels.

As an aside, I would like to see a snake wearing Dockers. I think a clothed snake would be cute, like Lowly Worm from the Richard Scarry books.

Binjabreel
5 years ago

“Or thinking Futurama isn’t funny…”

BLASPHEMY!!

maistrechat
5 years ago

The SPLC has attracted so much hate from the right that “SPLC is an unreliable hate group” has started to become disturbingly common (see: the talk page of any Wikipedia article about any organization profiled by the SPLC).

It seems like they’re the “new” ACLU as the “obviously” bad organization of unwashed hippy elite corporate plutocrats.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

AVFM is most definitely a hate site. Suck on that, Suzy.

marinerachel
marinerachel
5 years ago

Look at you, stalking deano again. You madman!

katz
katz
5 years ago

AVFM has events and stuff where real people attend; is that enough to qualify them as a group? Or does it have to be a group in the sense of there being a group identity, ie, people saying “I’m a member of AVFM?”

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Dean: “How dare they not come to me and let me pontificate at them about the evils of feeemales! How dare they only ask my opposition what they think of me, when they’re obviously a hate group, out to oppress me and my fellows who are fighting for justice for Men Who Want to be Manly Men, instead of the decent human beings that those icky femicommunazis want us to be!

I just want to blame women and minorities and queer people for all my problems (which are all the evils in the world that I care about) instead of introspecting myself! Is that so wrong?!”

Shalimar
Shalimar
5 years ago

I’m from Alabama and was working a few blocks from the SPLC 20 years ago. At the time, they had a major issue with passive prejudice, in the sense that they were founded to fight and justifiably famous for fighting white supremacist groups yet at the time all the SPLC employees were white and all but a couple were male.

This didn’t seem to be intentional, the impression to me was that all of us have subconscious biases towards the groups and environments we were raised in and the SPLC brass were impressed by people, especially lawyers, who were just like them rather than taking a step back, examining their own prejudices and being more open-minded in their approach.

As far as I can tell just from casually looking at their spokespeople and authors over the years since, they are much better on this since it was pointed out to them (and once they were publicly embarrassed by a series of newspaper articles about it).

Anyway, that past hypocrisy was the first thing that came to mind when seeing SPLC called a hate group by anyone. Not surprisingly, it isn’t even close to what assholes like Dean Esmay were thinking about.

Shalimar
Shalimar
5 years ago

Also, too, re the Dockers commercial, I now live in the panhandle of Florida a few miles from the Gulf and I saw a deer 2 weeks ago. Casual guy in commercial must be referring to the parts of Florida that aren’t incestuously married to Alabama.

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

That Phineas verse from Numbers was also used to furnish Scriptural justification for anti-miscegenation laws.

Sarah
Sarah
5 years ago

The “SPLC as hate group” meme seems to be a narrative among right-wingers. I happened to be flipping through radio channels the other day and happened upon Rush Limbaugh as he was ranting about the SPLC as hate group for everything Republican, everything conservative, and everything Christian (yes, those are his words).

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Heh. One of my sisters used to keep chickens in her yard. Phineas was the name of an asshole of a white rooster who wouldn’t stay in his cage, but kept harassing all the hens. Fitting, that…

Hypatia
Hypatia
5 years ago

Guys, an article opposing that marital rape apologia has been published by AVfM senior management editor David King. Even Paul Elam opposed Talukdar’s views on marital rape in the comment below the article. You should check it out I think.

Even though I don’t consider the article to be offensive, I will still paste it here through “do not link” since all AVfM articles are listed that way on this website.

http://www.donotlink.com/f37u

yutolia
yutolia
5 years ago

Mmmmmm so the KKK is all of a sudden not a hate group (they are now calling themselves ‘the Knights’ and pretending to be a ligit political party instead of WHAT THEY ACTUALLY ARE!!!) but the SPLC is?

It’s opposite day!!! Or maybe opposite decade – they seem to be trying to turn the language on its head.

flagalicious
flagalicious
5 years ago

@ Hypatia, David King’s May 11 article expressing disagreement with AVFM’s own Mr. Talukdar was published four days after David Futrelle pointed out Mr. Talukdar’s background and condemned AVFM for publishing it, on May 7. Since AVFM is incapable of apologizing to the public for the awful original article or withdrawing it or acknowledging DF was right to condemn it, this is spin — the original Talukdar article is now being characterized as an opinion AVFM actually OBJECTS to.

Mr. King claims AVFM often publishes articles that its staff disagrees with, but I haven’t noticed that before. It seems to be a custom-made shiny spinny device to me. I haven’t checked to see if Paul Elam’s comment was made after DF’s public condemnation — too disgusted to go to the site.

I have noticed that sometimes when an article is truly horrendously misogynistic, as one of Judgybitch’s was recently, AVFM has stepped in after the publication to announce that some of its articles try to meet journalistic standards and some are just “opinion”. Which is which seems to depend on its reception and what they can get away with. I can’t tell any difference between opinion and journalism over there, maybe because there is no actual journalism over there.

Hambeast, Social Justice Hoo-Ha Glitterer
Hambeast, Social Justice Hoo-Ha Glitterer
5 years ago

Quote from Hypatia’s link:

There’s something to that, insofaras Talukdar quite reasonably questions what rights the man has in return for the obligation to support and maintain his wife. But, the point could equally be used to argue for abolition of the man’s obligation to maintain his wife as much as to argue that his wife owes him sex in exchange for that obligation.

(Italics mine)

Even though this is a pretty-looking bunch of paragraphs pasted up at AVFM* to make them look not quite so awful, there’s STILL something they need to get straight: Rights and obligations are not the same thing. The right to bodily autonomy belongs to everyone, as all rights do (or should) and is not subject to votes, statutes, or juduciaries. The obligation of a man in India to “maintain his wife” is a statute of law and can be changed according to judicial or legislative action and/or possibly popular vote.

*by someone I’ve never heard of before (who is David King?)

Hypatia
Hypatia
5 years ago

@flagalicious

I understand, you make a good point. I guess we’ll never know if this article would be published if David didn’t point out that terrible marital rape apologia and contact Dean Esmay. I mean, I’m glad that somebody at AVfM opposed to Talukdar’s bullshit, however there is a reason to believe that they’re just testing how far with misogyny they can go, I don’t know. And indeed, it is a little strange that they would publish an article they disagree with. I mean, if you want your website to keep a good reputation and stay true to what you stand for, why publish something you don’t approve of? Maybe this is their way of trying to smooth things out in a subtle way.

@Hambeast

I don’t know who the fuck is David King, he claims that he is the senior manager at AVfM. I only know about the most prominent of that staff. I agree with you on this rights-obligations thing. I haven’t really analyzed the article in detail, just wanted to inform you that they denounced Talukdar’s article (apparently). But anyway, they way these people look at marriage is a bit sad I would say. As if marriage is pure transaction where women give sex and men give money. No, just no.

epitome of incomprehensibility

Thanks, David – I honestly didn’t know much about the SPLC before this (I’ve heard of them before but I probably got them mixed up with the ACLU, because… four-letter acronyms, me being Canadian… all sucky excuses, I know).

Unfortunately, I have heard of Stormfront. A few years ago I was looking up something about the Irish language, and I stumbled on a racist conversation about “why we should promote the white ethnicities, which always get ignored in mainstream history” (paraphrased). Ha! I think I wandered around the site for an hour, morbidly fascinated. For example, I wondered what kind of music white supremacists listen to – boring march music is what I found, not classical music, which was a bit of a relief. Anyway.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

There’s absolutely no reason for them to not add the manosphere as a whole to their extremist files, though.

I heard a story that they don’t delve into hatred against women because there is so much of it, their watch list would become huge and unwieldy.

In other words, it would be too much work.

I would definitely be interested in being proven wrong on this one, because it makes me angry just to think about it.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

I heard a story that they don’t delve into hatred against women because there is so much of it, their watch list would become huge and unwieldy.

In other words, it would be too much work.

Sadly, I can believe that all too well. Misogyny is the biggest and most universal bigotry there is. There’s no race or religion that doesn’t have some form of it kicking around.

And damn, that thought depresses me no end.

Sarah Aigei (@shietka)

You know, I kinda get the right-wing hate for the ACLU. They’ve done stuff that I didn’t entirely agree with, so I can somewhat understand how some more conservative might develop hostility towards them. But the SPLC? Really?

Earl
Earl
5 years ago

Esmay’s “evidence” for this assertion? A blog post by a right-wing ideologue that links to a story in the right-wing Weekly Standard that sort of half-suggests that the SPLC may have half-inspired the murder of three Muslim students in Chapel Hill, North Carolina … because the accused killer “liked” the SPLC on Facebook.

Okay, fuck the red lines in mspaint, we’re gonna need a corkboard with push pins and red string for this one. Maybe even a whiteboard with red markers! And of course we can’t forget the tinfoil hats! Maybe even full-body tinfoil suits, the better to keep them from stealing our precious bodily fluids!

(Also let’s see if I can actually use HTML in the comments correctly, LOL)

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

Why is it that the first reaction of a bigot who is called out is always, always the “Well you won’t tolerate my bigotry so YOU’RE the intolerant bigot, so there, neener neener” false equivalence?

Anon2
Anon2
5 years ago

Um….. Dean Esmay is a Democrat.

In fact, Dean Esmay and Manboobz are very, very similar in many ways (including their appearance). They might as well be twins.

megpie71
5 years ago

I really like the SPLC, to be honest. I think it shows a certain amount of courage and determination to include groups like the Nation of Islam (listed as having a “Black Separatist” ideology) and the Jewish Defence League (extreme Jewish nationalism) on the same page as the Ku Klux Klan, the Westboro Baptist Church, the National Socialist Movement (Neo-Nazis), and Stormfront (White Nationalist). The point apparently being that violent intolerance is anti-social and thus detrimental to a civilised society, no matter which direction it’s coming from or which direction it’s facing.

(Given I’m Australian, and I wish we had something similar here, I’m even more in favour of it).

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
5 years ago

MRA CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE:
Someone calls attention to how much your political beliefs and tactics have in common with some of the worst people on the planet. Do you…

1. Have a ragespittle fit and level a bunch of unsubstantiated attacks on whoever points out that literal Nazis substantially agree with your stance on “human rights,” and your idea of activism is harassment and doxxing of random women. (Turn to any page other than page 74.)

2. Reexamine your beliefs and how you try to produce change in the world. (Turn to page 74.)

Note: Page 74 was supposed to read “Congratulations! You win! Throw this book away and move on with your life.” However, due to a printer error, it was omitted from all published copies of MRA CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE.

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
5 years ago

In fact, Dean Esmay and Manboobz are very, very similar in many ways (including their appearance). They might as well be twins.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Are we supposed to be okay with Dean Esmay’s deplorable behavior because he’s a Democrat? What? How is that relevant? Just the US right consists of lickspittles who will side with any Republican no matter what they do (unless it’s going after other more conservative Republicans) doesn’t mean the rest of us work that way.

Also a lot of people here aren’t American and really, especially don’t give a shit if he identifies as a Democrat.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Are we supposed to be okay with Dean Esmay’s deplorable behavior because he’s a Democrat? What? How is that relevant? Just the US right consists of lickspittles who will side with any Republican no matter what they do (unless it’s going after other more conservative Republicans) doesn’t mean the rest of us work that way.

Also a lot of people here aren’t American and really, especially don’t give a shit if he identifies as a Democrat.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Oh. This is the first time the double post mammoth ever got me!

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

@WWTH “Are we supposed to be okay with Dean Esmay’s deplorable behavior because he’s a Democrat? What? How is that relevant?”

Yeah, there’s plenty of democrats who hold truly revolting opinions, it’s not a magic affiliation that makes you immune to criticism. Fred Phelps was a democrat too.

Moocow
Moocow
5 years ago

“Um….. Dean Esmay is a Democrat.

In fact, Dean Esmay and Manboobz are very, very similar in many ways (including their appearance). They might as well be twins.”

Huh, and here I thought MRAs only judged [i]women[/i] entirely on appearances.

dhag85
5 years ago

“thinking Futurama isn’t funny”

>:(

dhag85
5 years ago

Oh wow, this new development with Talukdar and AVfM is almost difficult to believe. Imagine if this happened on WHTM. If Futrelle let a nazi guest blogger write a long article about, let’s say, the benefits of immediately killing all men or putting them in, let’s say, FEMA death camps. Elam contacts Futrelle through twitter and email, basically asking “wtf?”. Futrelle responds with: “Quit stalking meeee 🙁 ” Then a few days later Futrelle posts a new article saying he doesn’t agree with hus guest blogger. Would this ever happen? Would MRAs ever be ok with that behavior? I’m gonna say no.