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Feminist activist Grace Mann murdered; blogger blames her death on feminist jokes about misandry

Murdered feminist activist Grace Mann
Murdered feminist activist Grace Mann

Last month, police say, University of Mary Washington student and feminist/LGBT activist Grace Mann was murdered — bound and asphyxiated by a male housemate and fellow student.

An antifeminist blogger is blaming her death on feminist jokes about misandry. 

As Mike Oelke of the Feminism is a Fraud blog sees it, Mann’s death was the inevitable result of the unwillingness of feminists to “learn misandry is not a joke.” In an older post, Oelke had predicted that

one day a feminist wearing an “ironic” KILL ALL MEN t-shirt will walk down the wrong street, enter the wrong room and encounter the wrong man; a man that does not value her as a woman and chooses not to treat her as an equal. The man will not see the t-shirt as ironical humor, but be offended and beat her savagely, laughing as he licks the tears from her crying eyes.

WIth Mann’s death, he says, this “prediction has somewhat been proven true.”  And he promises that there will be more violence directed at feminists who

constantly laugh off their misandry as a joke, while treating misogyny like a scourge. Some types of males are going to take that badly with predictable results.

While he says he doesn’t “feel good” about his prediction “somewhat” coming true, he also claims that

this young woman’s death serves a purpose. She “Took one for the team.”

That callous and cruel last line, whatever Oelke meant by it, seems more than a little ironic given the facts of the case.

While we still don’t know the motive of the man who allegedly murdered her, Mann’s death took place on a campus that feminist activists say has become an increasingly hostile environment for them.

The campus group Feminists United — of which Mann was a member  — has faced a barrage of  harassment and threats online and on campus since last fall when it started to “expose the insidious misogyny and hatred” on campus, as the group’s president Paige McKinsey put it in an op-ed for the school paper in January.

The most egregious example of this “insidious misogyny” was the violent chant — celebrating the rape of dead “whores” — that the school rugby team performed at a party last fall. Surreptitiously recorded by a (male) friend of McKinsey who happened to be at the party, the noxious chant was brought to the administration’s attention by Feminists United last November.

Once the school began disciplinary actions against the team earlier this year, its supporters reacted with outrage — and an even bigger wave of harassment against campus feminists, including hundreds of threatening comments made on the anonymous chat app Yik Yak.

There were rape threats and numerous vicious, sexually explicit personal attacks against McKinsey; Mann was also targeted and threatened with rape. One supporter of the team warned that feminists would “burn” if the team was suspended and that “there will be no survivors.” Another threatened that “Dandy’s about to kill a bitch … or two.” When Feminists United reported these threats to the school administration, they were reportedly told that the school could do little about them.

The rugby team was suspended in March. Mann, a prominent member of the group whose activism led to the team’s suspension, was murdered in April. The suspect, a returning student named Steven Vander Briel, was a former member of the rugby team.

And while there is as yet no clear evidence that there is any connection between the suspension of the team and her murder, it is hard not to wonder if she was killed, not for any ironic jokes about misandry, but for challenging the culture of violent misogyny that seems to infect the Fredericksburg, Virginia, campus.

Mann, who was gay, was not involved with Vander Briel, police say; she was assaulted during what was supposed to be a brief stop at her home after returning from a Day of Silence event to raise awareness about bullying and harassment directed against LGBT folks.

In the wake of Mann’s murder, Feminists United, along with the Feminist Majority Foundation, has filed a Title IX complaint with the Department of Education charging the University of Mary Washington with a “systemic failure to protect” members of the group “from a sexually hostile school environment, from sex-based cyber assaults, and from threats of physical and sexual violence.”

At a media event on campus announcing the complaint last Thursday, Frederickburg.com reports,

Attorney [Debra] Katz said the complaint does not allege that the university caused Mann’s death, but that it “failed to act in the face of vicious abuse and ridicule” Mann suffered.

According to Frederickburg.com, Julia Michels, a University of Mary Washington student and one of the complainants in the Title IX complaint, said at the media event that while

she hopes the threats did not have anything to do with Mann’s death … when she heard the news … her thoughts immediately went to the threats.

“I know she had been mentioned by name on Yik Yak, and I know she was scared, as I am,” Michels said. “I know she was angry, as I am. Most of all, I know she was disappointed in her school for failing to protect her, just as I am disappointed at UMW for failing me.”

We will know in time, one can only presume, what motivated Mann’s murderer. But the damage that can be done by the sort of violent misogyny that she and other members of Feminists United were subjected to on the University of Mary Washington campus — and which her friends still face — is already very clear.

“Misandry” is a joke. Misogyny can kill.

NOTE: This discussion thread is a NO TROLLS, NO MRAs, etc thread. If you’re a troll, an MRA or similar and you comment in this thread you will be banned. 

EDIT: I have added a few things to highlight Mann’s LGBT activism.

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Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago
Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

No, the point was that the chant had nothing to do with her murder. That was *very obviously* the point of the post. What are you suggesting then? That the chant and the fact that they were chanting it when it’s just like countless rugby chants going back ages is responsible for Ms. Mann’s death? Therefore the whole team is responsible for her death? I don’t even get what you’re arguing.

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I mean this seriously, because if you have a learning disability I’m going to cut you a lot more slack than if you are neurotypical and just being incredibly stupid.

the chant -> offensive to feminists -> feminists complained about it -> entitled fucking asshole athletes and their supporters LIKE YOU decided that being offensive and horrific is actually fine and desirable -> backlash against the feminists complaining about the horrific and offensive chat -> death threats against the feminists -> suddenly one of the feminists was murdered by someone with a link to the team

I mean, are you seriously disabled that you were unable to follow that chain of events in the post? It’s right up there, in plain English.

Oh, wait, are you not a native speaker of English? Usually non-native speakers self-identify but I shouldn’t leap to the assumption that you are a native speaker just because you didn’t.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

I’m really digging the “nuance” that this chant was all in good fun and women shouldn’t have been offended by it at all. That’s some damned fine nuance, certainly a totally original argument and nothing I’ve ever heard before in my entire life, and a very well-informed and thoroughly-thought-through opinion. Black men shouldn’t be offended at being called “boy” either, because, y’know, it’s a term of endearment!

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Why is it assumed that every single thread in every single feminist space should be an open free for all for any man who wants to debate it. Who fucking asked for a debate, Divided Line? Nobody.

Do you seriously think you aren’t saying anything we haven’t heard a million times before? We hear every day of our lives that we should ignore red flags or even outright hate and give all men the benefit of the doubt. Until they do hurt us and then it’s our fault for not being more careful of course.

Fibinachi
5 years ago

Divided Line, Mr. Wizard Guy? If you want to have a “Legitimate argument”, you read the words of your opponents before making ill-assumed statements (like the one about male sexuality, which you still haven’t corrected) and you don’t ascribe malicious intentions and conspiratorical fantasies to the people you are debating with, not hint that they are incapable of grasping nuannce, irrational and stupid.

That’s not a “Legitimate debate”, that’s literally trolling. This is why people say you are trolling. Because you are trolling. If you want to have a “legitimate debate” then maybe start having one, have some points and say something reasonable.

M.
M.
5 years ago

And now, a message for Divided Brain from my cat:

http://nequam.xepher.net/images/levi/badtrolling.jpg

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

Incidentally, lynch mobs were routinely called into being out of accusations of sexual predation in order to protect women from imaginary dehumanized monsters.

OMG you are so fucking ignorant, go back to school and read a book. The #1 complaint lodged by lynch mobs was that black people were insufficiently respectful. It is a modern myth that it was hysteria over the sexual purity of white women. It was, and always is, about keeping black people in their place with terror tactics.

That you would transfer that terrorism from white lynch mobs to a fucking internet message board populated by people who are grieving, goes beyond even concern trolling. That goes straight into such depths of stupidity that I can’t even find a word for it.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

So, if the purpose of the chant is to be offensive to women, that means it’s out of line to find them misogynistic? That doesn’t even make sense. I tend to take guys at their word on these kind of things. If they’re saying misogynistic things, I’m going to assume they’re misogynists. Men have the luxury of giving their fellow men the benefit of the doubt because they aren’t the target. We don’t have that luxury. Being wrong can mean our lives. But sure, it’s more important to not be mean to the poor menz and hurt their feelings with a misogyny accusation.

M.
M.
5 years ago

It’s more likely that it was an attempt to make fun of the absurdity of assuming that the rugby team were rapists for singing a traditional chant with dirty lyrics.

I never argued that women shouldn’t be offended by the chant. The point of the chant is to be offensive.

One day, MRAs will learn of the arcane concept known as “Scrolling up a little.” Today is not that day.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

Well, WWTH, lets be fair. The rugby team was suspended. That’s where we should focus our grief, and not on the dead murdered feminist woman. Being suspended from playing a sport is way, way, way more important than women’s lives.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Ugh. Such stupidity. Women fearing men isn’t like white people ascribing criminality to black people in order to keep a white privileged status quo in place. Women fearing men is more analogous to black people fearing the police.

M.
M.
5 years ago

@PoM

Sadly, Ched Evans’ and half of the NFL’s fans would agree with that.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

This guy trolled here before right? The name sounds familiar.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@WWTH

The icon looks familiar to me.

M.
M.
5 years ago

Also, that might’ve been the shittiest flounce I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen some shitty flounces in my time. Eight minutes, and his un-flounce must’ve taken seven to froth write! Tsk tsk.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

I’m right. He’s a sad boner troll who necro’d a thread to tell us that it’s our fault when men commit suicide because we didn’t fuck them enough. So shocking that his empathy is with the rugby players, not the murdered woman.
https://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/09/30/the-freak-out-artist-julian-from-real-social-dynamics-takes-gaslighting-to-a-new-level/comment-page-8/#comment-548512

Fibinachi
5 years ago

@M.

Ok, you realize those chants are common and they are old? Do you understand that the point of the chant is to be offensive and ridiculous? If anyone actually thought it was ok to rape dead women, *it wouldn’t be a part of a rugby chant* since it wouldn’t be offensive. This is not so much nuance that you can’t understand it.

Look, I don’t want to defend a bunch of jocks and their dudebro chants. The point here is simply that a chant didn’t convince anybody to rape dead women or kill anybody, nor is it even an indication that anyone seriously wants to rape dead women. Do you not see what is wrong with this idea that you have some moral license to carefully police everything men say and do because you regard them as potential monsters? That’s disturbing.

And a bunch of guys being offended at being called a misogynists being used as proof that they are misogynists is absurd. Do you not see why? Apparently everything men do is threatening and proof of their innate pathological misogyny and evil.

Now, let’s talk about this for a bit.

People sing a chant, another group find the chant offensive to them, and they say this to the first group. The first groups response is: “The chant is supposed to be offensive!”

For some reason you stop there. Why? It’s supposed to be offensive and? What, that’s it? You’re telling me a group of people gather in place and start chanting stuff that they specifically pick because its the most offensive thing they can think of? What, and that’s just a thing people do? That seems kind of silly if you ask me, but then again, I was never much one for rallies anyhow. People do what they do, I guess.

But it is a fucking fun thing to ponder though, isn’t it? This is something people meet up and routinely chant for no real reason other than to offend people, and the people chanting it have no problem with this. In point of fact, they’re doing it on purpose – as you say, if it wasn’t offensive, it wouldn’t be part of the chant in the first place.

Okay.

Why?

Why is it okay? And further – why is it specifically the rape they pick to be offensive with? There’s lots of ways to offend people. Hundreds. For some reason they aren’t chanting about keying people’s cars or breaking windows, but about rape. A nuanced perspective might wonder if there was some sort of cultural idea at play, that it’s okay for large groups of men to gather and chant about how they’re going to rape / murder / kill things and this is just accepted “as is” because, hey, fuck-it, they’ve done it for a long time! The chants are traditional and old! It’s okay – no one actually wants to rape or murder anybody. They just keep singing about it year after year after year after year. They don’t mean anything by it and the chant is kind of funny, really, so it’s okay. It doesn’t matter and rape is still wrong! We don’t want to rape anyone! No one does. Now let’s all get together and have the traditional pre-battle rape chant. Good times.

I wonder if there’s a word for the kind of culture that exists wherein groups of people consistently get together to do that, often in a way that involves rape, and more often in a way that involves rape of women (dead or alive, as the case may be).

Further, I wonder if there’s a word for the kind of culture that raises people to say “It’s no big deal” when other people say: “Uh, that rape chant is a bit off”.

I wonder. Is there such a word? Like, I don’t know, some kind of… culture? A culture of chants? A culture of rape?

I don’t know.

If there isn’t such a word, maybe someone should invent a phrase to cover it.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago
fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Divided line
Ok one that song was about raping a dead woman we’re not blaming her murder on that rugby team but one of the ex rugby player that killed her I mean have you been reading?

Two, stop saying that we’re bashing men for everything they do and their sexuality because we’re not we’re only bashing misognists that flat out threaten that they want to hurt women and Iv heard misognists admit that this is what men do so apparently the only misandrists Iv been seeing are them. Seriously where did you get that we wrote that all men are monsters? Is getting angry for all the men who sent those threats, the men who chanted and killing her equal “all men” to you?

“I don’t think that “rape culture” and assuming that stupid rugby chants will result in women being raped”

…do you even know what rape culture is? Rape is a joke, we blame the victims for their rapists’ actions or we don’t believe them.

So it’s “offensive, stupid and ridiculous” about raping dead women but it’s disturbing that we get onto any man that does something wrong?

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

It’s a stupid song. Grow up.

http://imgur.com/ylHV9By

I literally cannot imagine any reason why I wouldn’t want to spend all fucking night “debating” with such high-level discourse.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago
epitome of incomprehensibility

The point of the original post wasn’t the rugby team or a song! It certainly wasn’t that rugby players are the “cis hetero patriarchy illuminati”! It was that a woman was killed and that Mike Oelke irrationally and unconscionably blamed it on feminists making fun of men and threatened that more women would be hurt!

I don’t know the killer’s motive either. But it’s fair to point out that the harassment that the feminist group was getting, whether the team should have been suspended or not, certainly revealed a worrying level of hatred and is more similar to the “lynch mob” mentality you’re maligning than is any criticism of misogyny you see here. Does that make sense?

Bryce
Bryce
5 years ago

@ Divided Line

Rugby is a major sport over here, part of stereotypically blokey, sport-obsessed culture. Chants like that would never be tolerated on club grounds or at any team event.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

if they were all threats, you’d think we would have seen better ones than one that is an obvious reference to a line from a television show.
we would have seen better ones than one that is an obvious reference to a line from a television show.
seen better ones than one that is an obvious reference
ones than one that is an obvious
than one

One quote from a TV show invalidates all the actual threats.

Okay.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/yes-wait-wtf.gif

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Oh how totally original. A man who wants to excuse misogyny pretends that only racism and classism exist, but misogyny doesn’t. Right. I’m the one who is ignorant of history. I forgot that rich women always had the right to vote and own property. Upper class women have never been raped or abused. Legal marital rape only applies to poor couples.

Fibinachi
5 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

“Ugh. Such stupidity. Women fearing men isn’t like white people ascribing criminality to black people in order to keep a white privileged status quo in place. Women fearing men is more analogous to black people fearing the police.”

This is the whole problem with conflating race, class, and sex. If you thought this way, you would understand nothing about our history or the present. In a class domination relationship, one class dominates the other without reciprocity.

This is true, in a strict binary system.

So for instance, blacks were legitimately dominated as a class. In that scenario, did black ideas about whiteness shape white identity? Of course not. But white ideas about blackness absolutely shaped black identity, and this was the cultural component of that domination.

You realize this isn’t true, though? Right? Black ideas about whiteness whould shape “White” identity, because the ideas of what blacks shouldn’t do would filter back and be – incidentally – part of what whites “Should” do, because, obviously, they’re doing it to *not be blacks*

The world isn’t a strict binary system with no influence where one order dictates down. The people “on top” are shaped just as much by what the people below them assume they won’t do, or they need to do to not be the people below them.

But the sexes aren’t classes.

Good, I prefer classless RPGS. Wait.

Each class (or race for that matter) has a male and female half.

No. Each grouping that includes people have a male and a female half (unless your class group is “Everyone over 50 who isn’t female”).

Men are not a class and women are not a class, the ruling class is half female and half male.

Does the phrase: “The sex class” ring any bells to you?

The men in that class are socialized in a ruling class culture, half of which is female. Black ideas about whiteness in a class domination relationship do not shape white identity,

Yes it does. Black ideas about what whiteness is shapes whiteness because whiteness is doing what blacks don’t do. What blacks do is what whites don’t do. That’s what makes racism so insidious, exactly because it’s not always one class oppressing another class with conscious vicious evil. Why does a general ride a horse but not walk beside the troops? Because every soldier expects the general to ride the horse, and would be upset if he did not. Why do white people rule over black people and lash them in the fields? Because its what they do, and what’s the white man’s right but also because all the black people are in the fields and they expect every white person they meet to rule over them and lash out, so no one gets a chance to break the systemic problem.

but women’s ideas about maleness absolutely shape male identity. It is arguably the most important social force which does.

Inthusfar as you define “maleness” as defined by women– wait, you just did. Sorry.

There is even an argument to be made that masculinity doesn’t belong to men to define or redefine, but that it was only ever a reflection of women’s or their family’s expectations of mates. In any case, it’s clear that men do not exist in a social vacuum, but that their identities are formed in a social landscape that women provide for them and vice versa.

Yes. This is called human relations 101. People exist with other people. No man is an island. We are all links in the chain of humanity, etc, etc. But by fucking defintion, maleness is what men do. No more, no less. So if male-ness is defined by what women want men to do, then femaleness is defined by what men want women to do, so it curves back around because all the women are doing what all the men want are doing what all the women want are doing what all the men want are doing what all the women want are doing what all the men want BAM HUMAN SOCIAL RELATIONS in a giant interlocking web of people pressing at other people and being defined in turn by their definitions of other people.

So let’s talk about the “status quo” given that we have to consider that ruling class women are just that, the female half of a ruling class. Which status quo are we referring to? The one in which racist white men imagine themselves as the protectors of damseled white women and use this as a pretext to demonize their racial and class enemies by painting them as potential raping monsters? That status quo?

Sub-classifications, dude. Learn to love them. It works in taxonomy, it works socialism, it works in capitalism, it works everywhere. Nuance. The ruling class is more than one thing and the ruled class is more than one thing and women is more than one thing and men is more than one thing.

And did you say police? That’s amazing in a country in which the sentencing disparity between the genders is six times that of the disparity between the races.

Huh, weird. Almost as if men and women could be modelled as two distinct classes with their own individual cultural and social problems, influencing each other.

And in a country that, with only 5% of the world’s population, incarcerates 25% of the world’s prisoners. You have to be kidding me. Let’s be clear about who the police, the defenders of the “status quo,” will be coercing, let’s be clear about who the demonized other will be. Hint: it’s not women.

Wait – the disparity between genders is six times that of race, so the status quo is the white ruling classes of men and women oppressing the black oppressed classes, which shows us that most poor black men go to prison, but sex isn’t a seperate class so black men have nothing to fear from the police?

Your logic is… it’s kind of off.

By the logic of intersectional theory which would show us, rightly, that the problems that lower class women face are, in many instances, faced by all women, even if it is to a lesser degree for ruling class women, we would have to conclude that the same demonization we reserve for black men would, in many instances, also be reserved for all men, even if it is to lesser degrees, yeah?

Well, we can’t, because women aren’t a seperate class so the problems one women face is faced by all women, eternally, equally, and there is no difference between individual situations. Or wait. Hang on. If the problems the lower class women face is shared by upper class women, across the economic divide that almost seems to hint that women can be modelled as a unique class in society with their with problems and vagaries of fate to contend with, problems that CIRCUMVENT economic demarcations, power classifications and other divisions of class. And the same would go for men!

oh god! Men and women are seperate classes in society with their own share of unique problems influencing each other back and forth like the ideas of which is part is in a binary system is defined by what the other part isn’t!

Let me make it simple for you: We are not hunter gatherers. We live in a stratified social system. Power in a society does not go to the one with the stronger body, but to the one who has the public perception of moral rectitude. Dick Cheney was a fat old man with a heart condition, yet nobody would argue he was “powerless” as vice president. Power goes to those on whose behalf men in uniforms are empowered to coerce others. That is most certainly not men.

Oh god, I see the light, men and women can sometimes be modelled as seperate classes across economic boundaries so they face unique personal problems that aren’t related to their actual poverty or wealth status, but their sex and gender. And we can reliably expect certain things from these indicators!

I shall call this theory feminism, in honor of the fact that its the idea that women across poverty-lines might share problems that inspired in me this great idea! And I shall create a framework of theories to expound on the problems faced by the seperate classes of men and women, and I will call it “women’s studies” and “Men’s studies”

and I’ll also go back in time 70 years and write up the longer theoretical framework in a series of books under various pseudonyms spanning what I will refer to was “waves”
—-

Jesus christ what the fuck was that? I think my brain just broke a little there. Men and women aren’t seperate classes because the ruling classes 50 / 50 so that means maleness is defined by women so men have no power in society because their moral rectitude is held in mistrust, and so this must mean that feminist who demonize male sexuality are evil and like lynch-mobs, making men and women seperate classes with men suffering more?

Uhm.

Can you repeat that? That’s some kinks in that theory.

mayimoktoo
mayimoktoo
5 years ago

is anyone else actually reading Divided Line’s bullshit anymore? because my eyes go into skim mode as soon as I see that icon. Why can’t the sad boners ever regurgitate a new thought?

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@mayimoktoo

Eh, I’ve just been skimming them so I can post a funny gifs that kinda correspond.

http://i.giphy.com/EY9lb0xY0OnPq.gif

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Fibi,
I don’t if he’s heard of the sex class, but he sure treats women that way. Since his first foray here consisted of him telling us that women have forced men into suicide by having the audacity to choose our own partners rather than feeling obligated to fuck him.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

Ahhh, what a lovely and nuanced argument Divided Line makes!

I mean, clearly making threatening statements about feminists on an online and anonyous message board means absolutely nothing, and were probably just made up by 14 year old yahoos who were thousands of miles away at the time, even if a person who was part of the threatened feminist group is LITERALLY MURDERED.

But HOLY SHIT GUYS YOU CAN’T TALK ABOUT A PURPOSEFULLY OFFENSIVE RUGBY CHAT AND CONNECT IT TO AN ATMOSPHERE OF HOSTILITY AND VIOLENCE TOWARDS WOMEN ON AN ONLINE AND ANONYMOUS MESSAGE BOARD. THAT’S FORMING A LYNCH MOB, DON’T YOU KNOW?!??!!!11?!

And also chanting about dead women is no harmful in the least, even if a woman is murdered, but calling men who chant about dead women misogynist is TOTALLY harmful and life-ruining!

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

Clearly our friend here is the most logical and internally consistent one amongst us. We should all listen to his supreme reasoning abilities. /sarcasm

Fibinachi
5 years ago

It is true that lots of power is wielded by defining what is righteous and true, but it can’t have much to do with how men and women behave with each other because women aren’t a seperate class so women as a class cannot possibly be wielding any kind of power that helps shape society.

Men and women aren’t classes after all.

( :b )

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
5 years ago

“They were people pissed off at being called rapists and abusers of women for singing a dumb song. Again, getting pissed off that somebody accused you of misogyny is proof of misogyny.”

If people are gonna to chant that they want to rape and kill women and call them gendered slurs then yes I’m gonna to assume that they’re dangerous misognists that need to be locked up. That doesn’t excuse them to send death and rape threats and call them gendered slurs because they’re mad that they been called rapists and abusers it just proves the accusers right.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Banana
Thank you for the gifs 🙂

M.
M.
5 years ago

I don’t believe for one second those guys are necrophiles or rapists or even that they hate women anymore than men in the general population.

Can’t say I’ve been paying too much attention to Captain Cockwit’s teal deers for the most part, but man, that is one telling sentence.

Fibinachi
5 years ago

Ah, actually that is a good point. Thank you Divided Line.

If we ascribe ulterior motives and evil intent to everyone, and take everything they do as further evidence of their evil intent that is generally a bad thing that twists even innocous things into mockeries and makes evil of bad jokes and atrocities of puns.

And I don’t believe they’re necrophiles or rapists either. Few people are, and it’s obviously just a silly chant.

So why on Gods’ Green Earth didn’t you lead with this entirely reasonable point instead of spending two pages going ever which way, hinting people were irrational and weird, and getting things completely wrong about people’s arguments?

Dude, man, no point in all that.

( And we can still point out that some things are in extremely poor taste precisely because it’s necrophilic and misogynistic while having a good conversation where no one insults anyone else! )

But I have to admit there’s a bit of a flaw in this theory.

We cannot, after all be

trusting them to be human beings and rational moral agents.

Because men and women aren’t separate classes, so speaking of “men” as a classing of people with a certain set of behaviour is entirely impossible.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago
Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

Buh-bye Divided Line. Try to stick the flounce, eh? And let the door hit you on the way out.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

I can’t keep up with all the replies and I’m sure you’re tired of having your thread hijacked by an MRA neckbeard shitlord, so I apologize if I didn’t get to respond to yours. Maybe I’ll get the chance later. Thanks for the spirited debate.

http://i.giphy.com/pyW1FDpBAIZW0.gif

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

Not to diminish the sheer awfulness of the current blight, but I am somehow reminded of a recent mansplaining bloviator and herder of teal deers. He employed the Argument from Authority, using Aristotle as his source, to convince us that human nature is eternal and unchanging. DL has a similar difficulty with the idea that we actually understand what he’s saying – we don’t agree and are trying to explain why, but the basic concept seems to elude him.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

It’s a problem that men would choose to bond with each other over a chant about rape though. I can’t imagine bonding with my friends over a chant about raping men. It seems like these chants go one way. Now, I wonder why would that be?

Snuffy
Snuffy
5 years ago

So Divided Lines argument seems to boil down to:

1) Making horribly offensive songs about raping dead women is just “boys being boys” and we should let it go.
2) Calling said dudebros misogynistic for their words (which they intentionally chose to be offensive by using violent words aimed at women) is horrible and valiantly needs defending.
3) All the harassment received by the feminists doesn’t count because one is a tv reference and no way indicates a toxic environment. (HINT: talking about murdering someone is still a threat even if you didn’t mean it).

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago
Bryce
Bryce
5 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

I’ve heard it described as ‘bonding through transgression’. One egregious example is the disgusting off-field antics of certain Rugby League players in Australia involving prostitutes or intoxicated women.

fruitloopsie
fruitloopsie
5 years ago

Snuffy
Yeah pretty much
Woman: “I got rape and death threats and my friend is dead because she said ‘no’ to a guy”
Man: “I got called a misognist”comment image

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago
M.
M.
5 years ago