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a voice for men anti-Semitism antifeminism crackpottery Dean Esmay empathy deficit gaslighting gross incompetence incoherent rage literal nazis lying liars MRA paul elam playing the victim post contains sarcasm rationalization hamster straw feminists straw futrelle that's completely wrong

A Voice for Men responds to the revelation that one of their contributors is a Holocaust denier by calling me a “stalker madman.”

Evasive-Maneuvers
It’s not going to work this time, fellas.

The good folks at A Voice for Men, the most influential Men’s Rights site out there, like to talk a lot about how much they hate hatred. Specifically, the alleged hatred allegedly promoted by feminists. Here’s Dean Esmay, the site’s Managing Editor and Chief Operations Officer, offering some typically nuanced thoughts on the subject earlier today on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/deanesmay/status/597082318168272896

So how have the powers that be at AVFM responded to the revelation that one of their contributors, Indian MRA Amartya Talukdar, is a Holocaust denier and Hitler fan who thinks Hillary Clinton is a “Jewess?” Did they denounce Talukdar for his embrace of perhaps the most hateful hater in history, and take down his posts on their site? Not so much. 

I sent a few Tweets to AVFM head man Paul Elam cataloguing some of Talukdar’s more colorful statements on Twitter; Elam responded by blocking me.

So I sent an email to Esmay.

Dean —

It seems a bit odd for someone who goes on about the alleged “hatred” allegedly promoted by feminists and the SPLC to remain silent about the fact that AVFM just published a post written by a Holocaust denier and Hitler fan,

And, no, that’s not hyperbole. Here’s the proof — these are all archived tweets of his.

Here are the Tweets I linked to. (Click on the images to see the archived versions.)

taluk1
taluk2

taluk3

(In case you’re wondering about the abrupt ending there, Talukdar was trying to write “hail [sic] Hitler” and ran out of characters. He finished up in a followup Tweet.)

I then linked Esmay to my post on the subject, telling him he could find more examples there.

I continued:

Maybe you didn’t know. But you know now — and so does Paul; I contacted him about it on Twitter, and he responded by blocking me, so it’s clear he saw my Tweets. … 

So will you or Paul be doing anything about this?

A fairly simple question, no?

Here was Esmay’s thoughtful response:

Dean Esmay 10:50 AM (8 hours ago)  to me  Never write me again, Mr. Futrelle. Your desperate desire to hold onto your own relevance is not of interest to me. Publish what you will, everyone sane knows you're a professional liar who gets his money on the backs of the bruised and helpless, like a socipathic sadist. If you write me again I will contact the police. Stay away, stalker madman.

So I’m going to take that as a “no, AVFM will not be doing anything about the fact that they have published the writings of a Holocaust denier and Hitler fan who thinks Hillary Clinton is a ‘Jewess.'”

When I first wrote about Talukdar’s, er, interesting beliefs, I said I thought AVFM would respond to the news by deflecting and denying the truth. I didn’t expect Elam would also block me on Twitter for asking, or that Esmay would declare me a “stalker madman” after dismissing direct evidence of Talukdar’s beliefs as somehow being “lies” on my part.

The AVFMers aren’t the only ones trying to employ evasive maneuvers. Talukdar has deleted his original Holocaust-denying, Hitler-praising Tweets. And when I sent him Tweets asking him about his beliefs he first responded by

  1. listing a number of famous anti-Semites (including Henry Ford and Richard Wagner and George Washington, who actually wasn’t an anti-Semite) and asking if I expected him to hate them too
  2. asking me “why is there rampant divorce illegitimacy and teenage pregnancy in USA”
  3. telling me that “you are a fundamentalist who uses terror to scuttle people’s voice”
  4. telling me that “you are a hate monger who doesn’t believe in freedom of speech.”

Several hours later, after I wrote to Esmay, Talukdar tried a new tack, admitting that Hitler was indeed a “devil” and a “hate monger”and promising that he would stop denying the Holocaust … if I acknowledged the Bengal Famine.

Obviously, this makes no sense; his beliefs on the Holocaust should not be contingent on what some random person believes about a different historical event. I wrote back:

I asked him why, if he honestly believed that Hitler was a hate monger, he had Tweeted “hail [sic] Hitler” less than a week ago. He replied:

talukdardevil

I told him that this also made no sense, and that it sounded like he was just telling me what he thought I wanted to hear. I asked him to explain why, as recently as this past week, he had declared the Holocaust a “lie” and “propaganda devoid of any facts,” and was demanding proof that Hitler’s gas chambers had even existed.

After a series of evasive non-answers Talukdar grudgingly admitted:

talukokbrother

Shortly afterwards he took his account private. (Luckily I thought to screenshot his recent Tweets before he did this; see here. The only one missing is the one listing anti-Semites.)

These aren’t, I daresay, the actions of someone who has actually changed his mind. So you’ll have forgive me if I doubt the sincerity of his apparent, if grudging, rejection of the Holocaust denial he was so recently, and repeatedly, espousing.

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tooimpurenangel
5 years ago

Stalker madman? SERIOUSLY?
As somebody who has been a victim of stalking that is just a bizarre response on his part.
I especially like the dig about how you make your money when his bud Paul E. has actually been caught scamming people.
It’s like dude wants his life to be a soap opera or something.

Faint Praise
Faint Praise
5 years ago

Weird. Maybe someone (AVfM?) privately asked him to stop being so embarrassing. That’s the only way these change of hearts make any sense to me.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

“Stalker madman”, saith the shit-headed shit-fer-brains shitlord.

And he calls feminism a “multibillion $$ hate industry”? At the very least, he COULD produce some balance sheets as proof. If he were for real, that is.

Dean Esmay is, in short, not a person to be taken seriously on any level.

gorillaella
5 years ago

It is ironic that this man idolizes Hitler, who would have gladly seen him to the ovens as he is non-caucasian.

cretaceouskitteh78
cretaceouskitteh78
5 years ago

Wow. I thought my little discovery was just an amusing detail but this is more amazing than I anticipated lol!

zoon echon logon
zoon echon logon
5 years ago

“…you’re a professional liar who gets his money on the backs of the bruised…”

What is it with Esmay and Nine Inch Nails?

God money’s not looking for the cure.
God money’s not concerned with the sick amongst the pure.
God money let’s go dancing on the backs of the bruised.
God money’s not one to choose

tooimpurenangel
5 years ago

I was wondering why that sounded so familiar to me.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

Who the fuck glorifies Churchill? He rolled over and let Hitler have Poland!

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

OH FUCK. YOU LEAVE NIN OUT OF THIS!

sparky
sparky
5 years ago

So, who had money on the “you’re the hater for pointing out hate!” response?

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

I wonder what exactly he would say to the police. “Officer, this man continues to send me emails asking pertinent questions! Send him to Azkaban!”

Churchill was also the brains trust behind Gallipoli and the overthrow of Mossadegh. He had a LOT of blood on his hands. Still not as bad as Hitler.

I am aware that ‘not as bad as Hitler’ is damning with faint praise, or possibly praising with faint damns.

davidknewton
davidknewton
5 years ago

What I don’t understand is why they (virtually everyone at AVFM) calls you a liar, when you hand them quotations directly from themselves? The only embellishment here is the humour to make the subject matter marginally more bearable.

M.
M.
5 years ago

Has David ever tried making a post about the blueness of the sky or the wetness of water just to see the MRA response? Either way, I’d love to see it.

magnesium
magnesium
5 years ago

listing a number of famous anti-Semites (including Henry Ford and Richard Wagner and George Washington, who actually wasn’t an anti-Semite) and asking if I expected him to hate them too

I don’t know much about Wagner, but Washington was cool with owning other humans and Henry Ford was actually kind of an anti-Semitic, anti-worker’s rights shit, so yeah, it’s okay if you dislike those two.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

They had opportunity to look like halfway decent humans. They could have said “we here at AVFM had no idea that Talukdar believed these vile things. This doesn’t reflect our beliefs and we denounce them and will delete his post right away.” But, no. They had to make themselves look even worse.

Once again Janet does a poor job at PR. If she was an actual PR person she would have recommended apologizing and distancing themselves.

In addition to being terrible people, the AVFM crew are cartoonishly incompetent in every way.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

They won’t dissociate themselves from a Hitler fetishist, but WE’re the “hate movement”. I wonder how many $$$ Paulie’s planning to rake in here.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

PS: For their next big move, my money’s on a petulant, incoherent rant from Paulie and/or Deano. All about what a lying liar David is, etc.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

PS: For their next big move, my money’s on a petulant, incoherent rant from Paulie and/or Deano. All about what a lying liar David is, etc.

I would actually guess something more like “pretend it never happened.” That seems to be what their original plan was, before David tweeted and emailed them.

tooimpurenangel
5 years ago
Reply to  David Futrelle

I love it!

smithshadow
5 years ago

Looking at the AVFM website, this little gem, written by Dean Esmay caught my eye:

“SPLC spreads hate while a man starves – and David Pakman lets them do it.

David Pakman gives Mark Potok of the wealthy fatcat hate group known as the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) a free pass to spread fear and loathing of human rights activists. Mr. Pakman, do you have any shame?”

and later in the ‘article’:

“Pakman has not so much as approached us to comment before allowing the odious hate group known as the SPLC bash the innocent men and women of the Men’s Human Rights Movement, who are incredibly easy to find and talk to (me and Paul can be reached right here).”

David, have you found it incredibly easy to talk to Dean and Paul?

Bina, you are correct. “Dean Esmay is, in short, not a person to be taken seriously on any level.”

Bill
Bill
5 years ago

Here’s the text of a letter written by George Washington to aJewish congregation in Newport, Rhode Island: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_to_Touro_Synagogue

Its convincing proof that George Washington was not in fact an anti-Semite, and a pretty good smack down of anti-Semitism in general.

Austin Dahl
5 years ago

@M.

“Has David ever tried making a post about the blueness of the sky or the wetness of water just to see the MRA response? Either way, I’d love to see it.”

They would probably try to spin it into misandry somehow. I don’t know how, but that’s probably what would happen given what we’ve seen from them.

wordsp1nner
5 years ago

I can’t help but compare the MRM’s response to David to Gamergate’s response to… every reputable media outlet that covers them. “They say bad things about us, therefore they are liars!” Except the MRAs don’t even try to list lies, like gamergaters do–they just claim David is a liar without any examples.

Probably because admitting “He quotes us verbatim and exposes us to outsiders” is not much of an argument.

alaisvex
alaisvex
5 years ago

God, David, how dare you read public tweets on a public twitter account, recognize that they’re tweets denying the Holocaust, and then send them to the employer of the tweeter. This is clearly stalking because only a stalker would be able to see what someone was posting on Twitter. It’s literally impossible to access public tweets in any other manner.

/sarcasm

alaisvex
alaisvex
5 years ago

Also, I just realized that Talukdar thinks that he’s contributing as much to society as Henry Ford, George Washington (not an anti-Semite, but Talukdar is still making the claim and comparison), and Richard Wagner did and that he and all of them should be allowed to get away with anti-Semitism because of those contributions.

Let’s see. Henry Ford revolutionized automobile production, made cars more readily available to the American public, and realized that paying his employees halfway decent wages would encourage them to work harder. Richard Wagner was a brilliant composer and musician. George Washington played a major role in founding the United States of America. Amartya Talukdar is writing posts on a hate site arguing against the criminalization of martial rape and domestic abuse. One of these things is not like the others.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

“you’re a professional liar who gets his money on the backs of the bruised and helpless, like a soci[o]pathic sadist”

MRA and their projections.

flagalicious
flagalicious
5 years ago

Dean Esmay would have sent the same response no matter what your email said. He’s scared to death of engaging with you. That’s why his response borders on hysteria.

The aversion to reality contained in his response is alarming.

The quality of the writers and commenters on AVFM is incredibly low, but Mr. Talukdar is rock bottom.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

@davidknewton:

“What I don’t understand is why they (virtually everyone at AVFM) calls you a liar, when you hand them quotations directly from themselves?”

That’s their SOP. Quoting them verbatim is a lying, vicious, gynocentric conspiracy, as is reality in general.

katz
katz
5 years ago

Call the police? Pff, Esmay, grow a thicker skin! Or maybe quit the internet if you can’t handle criticism!

chaltab
chaltab
5 years ago

Something I just don’t get is why bigots feel the need to unnecessarily gender words. ‘Jew’ refers to all people who are Jewish, it doesn’t need to be turned into ‘Jewess’ for women. I’ve seen other bigots do it too, like H.P. Lovecraft referring to a black woman as a ‘negress’.

odaran
odaran
5 years ago

Do MRAs celebrate Mother’s day?

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

Chaltab, I believe that’s a deliberate archaism. Time was in English speaking countries that many nouns now gender neutral were gendered. Poetess, authoress, and my favorite, aviatrix. Most common one being actress, but even that is less common than it was. So, I think, he’s evoking an era when his odious views would have been mainstream. That he would have been living under either the East India Company or the Raj back then probably hasn’t occurred to him.

Orion
Orion
5 years ago

I think “liar” is another one of those words they think is a magical deflector rather than a word with real meaning.

Lanariel
Lanariel
5 years ago

@David

While dreaming I managed to find an intact copy of the MRA Dictionary. It was enlightening.

Lies:
Anything that does not conform to my world view, regardless of source or validity

Evidence:
Everything that confirms my worldview, regardless of source or validity.

Science:
The excuse to claim that Evidence are true and that Lies are false

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

“you’re a professional liar who gets his money on the backs of the bruised and helpless, like a soci[o]pathic sadist”

Something something glass houses.

By the by, how much did Elam make to *ahem* “upkeep” his site? I know it was well below his asking price.

alaisvex | May 10, 2015 at 12:05 am
God, David, how dare you read public tweets on a public twitter account, recognize that they’re tweets denying the Holocaust, and then send them to the employer of the tweeter. This is clearly stalking because only a stalker would be able to see what someone was posting on Twitter. It’s literally impossible to access public tweets in any other manner.

/sarcasm

katz | May 10, 2015 at 12:44 am
Call the police? Pff, Esmay, grow a thicker skin! Or maybe quit the internet if you can’t handle criticism!

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/56091742.jpg

chaltab
chaltab
5 years ago

@Robert

I think it’d be longer ago than that! I don’t ever remember reading the word ‘Jewess’ in the King James Bible (AD 1611). XD

sn0rkmaiden
5 years ago

So essentially they just put their fingers in their ears and started shouting ‘LA LA NOT LISTENING!!!’ in response to David’s questions. So much for redpillian facts and logic.

I for one, am shocked.

boogerghost
boogerghost
5 years ago

Yeah, you know, “I’ll call the police if you continue to send me civil emails containing evidence that the people in my employ are objectively sympathetic to Nazis” makes me doubt how much water the whole “zomg feminists have such a victim complex” thing can hold.

Myriad
Myriad
5 years ago

wealthy fatcat hate group known as the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC)

Ah seriously. Whenever I see people saying that kind of stuff I automatically think, sure the watchers of hate groups are totally a hate group. That sounds totally legit. [/sarcasm]

Esmay’s response to you made me laugh so hard, David. Oh the irony. And he plagiarizes his insults to boot. LOL!

I also learned today that the word liar doesn’t mean what it used to. Apparently, it now means someone who quotes another person accurately and provides links so you can read the article for yourself. Who knew.

Kakanian
Kakanian
5 years ago

@gorillaella

I don’t exactly enjoy being contrarian, but I was under the impression that the Nazis did support anti-colonial movements and ethnic-cultural nationalism like the one that ended up splitting Pakistan and India, which is why the ideology is still fairly popular in nations that formerly were european colonies. I was also under the impression that Stalin’s caucasian ethnicity had no influence on Hitler’s politics and that globally speaking, “Caucasian” is generally recongnized as a piece of US-exclusive newspeak with little bearing on or use in the local discussion of race outside of its national borders. The question as to how to forge a new majority that includes people that can pass as non-coloured really wasn’t all that urgent for political parties in other nations of the first world, as far as I can gather.

opium4themasses
5 years ago

Maybe it is very obvious but I didn’t see other people say it.

I think the “stop emailing me” thing is an attempt to portray David as a harasser. If David ever emails Dean again, Dean will act as if he is being stalked and severely impacted. Some stupid portrayal of David’s emails as being anywhere close to being inundated with rape and death threats will show how ”both sides do it”.

It reminds me of the twitter account which purported to show how antiGG were really the harassing group. The feed just seemed to prove how thin-skinned GG was for the most part. Maybe they found some actual harassment, but I got bored digging through so many screenshots of tweets which said “neckbeard”.

Kootiepatra
5 years ago

This seems like another instance of seizing upon every “SJW trump card” word they can find (hate group! stalker!) without having the slightest idea of what those words mean. Or at least, the honesty to admit that words mean things and that those words don’t apply here.

Kootiepatra
5 years ago

Also, yes, what opium4themasses said.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

Yeah, you know, “I’ll call the police if you continue to send me civil emails containing evidence that the people in my employ are objectively sympathetic to Nazis” makes me doubt how much water the whole “zomg feminists have such a victim complex” thing can hold.

These are the people who go “OMG feminists want to classify hand holding as rape!” then in another breath “the gynocentric courts are divorce raping men by making them have to share their kids with their ex! Oh the violation! MISANDRY.”

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

When I think of professional liars who make their money upon the backs of the bruised and helpless, Holocaust deniers (and Holocaust denier-deniers) spring to mind.

Boy, their PR is inept. “Dean Esmay could not be reached for comment” would have been a more dignified response, instead of handing you ammunition. Calling you a “stalker madman” and threatening to call the police is just embarrassing. What would the charge be? Third Degree Exposure Of Internet Faux Pas?