So I was wondering if any of A Voice for Men’s readers had spoken up in the comments there about a rather sensitive subject: the fact that the supposed “human rights” site recently published a post that was not only 1) an apologia for marital rape but also, 2) written by a Holocaust denier and Hitler fan.
When I took at look at the comments there this morning, the answer was (of course) no: there was no mention of AVFM contributor Amartya Talukdar’s numerous Tweets describing the Holocaust as a hoax, Hitler as a great man, and Hillary Clinton as a “Jewess.”
Instead, I found that those who challenged Talukdar’s post (archived here) — which defended the Indian government’s refusal to see marital rape as rape — got harsh rebukes from other AVFM commenters and the site’s moderators, who went so far as to actually ban two commenters unhappy with Talukdar’s rape apologia.
No, really.
Take a look at the response one Donald J. Kingsbury got when he challenged Talukdar’s post.
It didn’t take long for Kingsbury’s prediction to come true.
![donald j kingsbury • 2 days ago This page is shifty comedy. Just because you are married to someone doesn't mean they owe you sex, or even have to have kids with you. If she doesn't want to have sex, she doesn't want to have sex. She is not an object to be controlled, or something that is owned. And just because yr married doesn't mean she owes you sex when you want, go masturbate and get over yourselves. 1 • Reply•Share › Avatar Grumpy Old Man Mod donald j kingsbury • 2 days ago You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (derailing and trolling). [Ref: 4895] Additional remarks: Yup,and no one is contesting that here.](https://i0.wp.com/wehuntedthemammoth.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/avfmcommentbannedmarrape.png?resize=580%2C231&ssl=1)
This is what happens if you challenge the consensus at AVFM. Even if what you are challenging is an article by a Holocaust denier arguing that marital rape doesn’t exist because “marriage is consent.”
One commenter was unhappy with Grumpy Old Man’s response:
His candid comment earned him this rebuke from AVFM’s top mod:
Never mind that the article in question defended the “right” of men to sex-on-demand from their wives by lamenting that if women in India were allowed to say no to their husbands, these poor fellows might have to resort to masturbation. Because in Talukdar’s view, evidently, it’s better for men to rape their wives than for them to be “forced” to masturbate.
There’s a lot more terribleness in the comments there, but to me the worst comes from a regular AVFM commenter who calls himself Shrek6, who has evidently convinced himself that “rape is not that bad a crime against a woman or human being.”
“A woman or human being.” That’s actually what he wrote.
Heck, he explains in another comment, vaginas are tough, so most women don’t really suffer all that much from rape. As he sees it, most women can get over rape pretty easily if they can be convinced to forgive their rapists.
No, that’s what he really thinks:
These two comments are considered acceptable discourse at AVFM. Comments bluntly challenging an apologia for marital rape aren’t.
I’m slightly worried by that kitten holding the milk bottle. That’s just one step away from opposable thumbs; then we’re all fucked. Once they can pull triggers that’s all of us slaving away in the Tuna Fish mines.
Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
@Alan Robertshaw
The Planet of the Cats? Hasn’t that already happened? Without one shot being fired?
They’re very subtle. But if they evolve the ability to use tin openers they won’t need us any more. We’ll just be amusing playthings they allow to stay around on their whim.
@Alan Robertshaw
A huge majority of cats hate water and sleep 20 hours a day, so they still need us for tuna fishing and working to provide for them. We are needed until we make robots do everything.
@ batman na banana
If the cats make robots won’t the robots run off and marry MGTOWs though? 🙂
[I still think ‘Mr Miggy-Toes’ is a great name for a cat]
@Alan Robertshaw
Cats are not that kind. Or productive. They are an apathetic and lazy beast who coax on their cute looks and fuzzy ways and teeny beanie toes and adorable whiskers.
They also will jump head first into the wall if you point a laser pointer at it.
Thus they will not make any robots but will only use the robots humans provide for them. They have better things to do then create a society and culture. Like getting the bellies rubbed and then attacking the person rubbing their belly because of all the static electricity.
They are the most ingenious creatures.
(Also I am the Goddamn Batman Na Banana.)
@ GODDAMN Batman Na Banana
Cats run on static electricity? Like Daleks then; knew it!
AVFM does massive amounts of censorship. Blocking and banning those who disagree with them after insulting them with ad hom is par for the course with them.
I had a sudden realization reading the first thread capped at the top of this post.
When MRAs use the term “white knight” what they really mean is “anyone who doesn’t hate women with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.” They aren’t using the term properly. That’s why their references to white-knighting have never made sense to me.
I don’t think this donald kingsbury is even close to a feminist, but his hatred of women clearly doesn’t burn bright enough for him to think raping women is fine; therefore, he is labeled a white knight.
Wow. I’m sure this comes as no revelation to anyone else, but it was a eureka moment for me.
@Alan Robertshaw
They are nature’s robots, minus the Three Laws of Robotics.
When the Cat Revolution happens, probably before the Sexbot Revolution does, I shall be hunkered down in my house with a hundred high-powered water guns, sonic sound blasters and some very menacing looking (but otherwise sweet as sugar) German Shepherds.
You are welcome to join me. I will stay alert for other survivors.
Behold for I have seen the future.
@sunnysombrera
I’d build a tank and kill people if I were a sphynx too.
@Policy of Madness
You’re right, the usage of “white knight” is noteworthy, and incredibly derogatory in the context that MRAs use it.
The definition of a white knight:
“1 : one that comes to the rescue of another; especially : a corporation invited to buy out a second corporation in order to prevent an undesired takeover by a third”
MRAs are so adamant in defending their lack of hatred for women and I don’t doubt them for a second. They don’t hate women any more than they hate houses, or furniture, or business ventures.
@Nik
Well, “white knight” does have a legit feminist usage, which is probably where the MRAs got the term. A guy white-knights a woman when he “comes to her rescue” in a way that ignores or erases her agency. She may or may not have actually needed the assistance, but the manner in which the assistance is provided is a patriarchal one that treats her condescendingly.
The classic example is when a woman says something and it gets ignored, so the white knight steps in and says, “Let me handle this,” and then he just takes over the dialogue.
Of course, Olive O’Sudden. Much as I love this blog, it’s left me with an increased need to have industrial brain bleach at the ready.
…somehow I had a nap and dreamed about trying to explain why rape apology was bad to an MRA. This being dream logic, I think a kitten was involved. Probably because all the brain bleach on this site linked kittens to feminism for me. (Which is pretty cool, but doesn’t explain why dream-me thought the logical argument was “this is bad because kitten.”)
Sorry about being off-topic, but one of the comments here reminded me. o_O
Did the kitten have a tank?
I am one of those women. I have forgiven my people who have raped me. And I can easily see why some women don’t. Because there are some I haven’t.
I can forgive the man who didn’t realize (while mostly asleep to the point of not being able to really remember the incident) I was incapable of giving consent because I was dissociating. Had he been awake he would have noticed. Had I been able to speak, he would have taken a “no”.
The man that I told no to, who I pushed away from me, who I did everything possible to stop, him I don’t forgive.
The man who got hot holding me down to stop self harm and accepted my yes when he asked me for sex, him I don’t forgive.
the man who came to “comfort” me and brought condoms over knowing I was dealing with brand new trauma, got me drunk, and pressured me into sex by suggesting he should just leave (while I was DESPERATE to not be alone) if we weren’t going to have sex, him I don’t forgive.
And not one of them was less than traumatic. The fact someone didn’t mean to doesn’t change how it felt looking up at the man I loved violating me while I was unable to speak. The fact that I forgave that one doesn’t make that pain go away.
The fact that I didn’t forgive the others doesn’t make them hurt more. And it certainly doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been punished.
Ugh, I came back from an awesome sushi birthday dinner to be reminded that this is a thing.
Whelp, good thing one of my gifts was a tub of sea salt caramel ice cream then.
Ooh, Happy Birthday!!!
Happy Birthday!
…
Uh-huh. The problem with AVfM now is that they’re acting like feminists. Because defending people’s “right” to commit crimes is totally a thing most feminists do.
I… what… That’s not…
This post needs Cole and Marmalade:
Bonus Misandry:
Thanks…and right back atcha with a box of kittens! Good on your sons, too…the world needs more like them. And you for raising them right.
Yeah, I wasn’t hurt or anything, but I still don’t feel like forgiving. I mean, he had his knees on either side of my head; he could have crushed my windpipe just by sitting down. And he stopped without “finishing”, so I suppose that’s a small mercy. The dude got away with it; isn’t that enough? Fuck forgiving that. I only hope he smartened up and didn’t try that with anyone else. Ironically, earlier that evening, he’d rescued me from his roommate, who was apparently hellbent on actually “rape-raping” me. One would think he’d understand that “surprise” oral wasn’t kosher. But nooooo.
Also, Happy Birthday, Paradoxical! That ice cream sounds yummy. Caramel AND salt, two of my favorite munchie flavors combined? Perfect. Don’t let the AVFMotherfuckers get you down!
Hugs to everyone who needs them.
Happy Birthday Paradox!
Thanks for the birthday wishes everyone! I had a pretty good birthday, all this shit aside. I got to try new sushis!
And my uncle took me to an awesome place where sushi’s half off after five PM!
Happy birthday Paradoxical!
Rape is so much worse when it’s done to men – or it is if you’ve never experienced rape, don’t live under the constant fear it might happen to you if you aren’t ‘careful’, can’t or won’t even imagine what it would be like to have it happen to you and want to be able to rape women with impunity.
These people have no empathy. “I don’t mind being raped” said no-one, ever.
I don’t want them to be raped, but I can’t help feeling that everyone would benefit from them experiencing that sense of powerlessness, invasion and violation. Then the self doubt, recriminations, accusations of lying, fear of it being repeated or follow-up violence to keep them from telling etc.
Or they could just listen to what women are telling them about how it’s bad and don’t do it.
@Paradox
http://www.plentygifts.nl/1872-large_gifts/geluidskaart-happy-birthday-kat.jpg
Aw, thank you Spindrift! 😀
“are tough, so most women don’t really suffer all that much from rape.”
From the same who religiously believes vaginas gets stretched and women are “used” by too much sex, lol!
@Quartzok-43
Good point. They think an “untouched vagina” is the only value a woman will ever have. So.. rape (of a virgin) takes away the only value a woman can have, but it’s totally not a big deal.
Another contradiction in the narrative. How many are we up to now?
Umm, in my previous comment I didn’t mean to imply that only vaginal rape is rape, or anything like that. Sorry.
“Hey, the mugger only took $3.00 from you. It’s not like he stole a hundred. Now THAT would be a crime.”
What a fucking idiot Shrek6 is. Essentially, he’s trying to argue that rape should only be prosecuted if another crime is committed alongside it, like assault. And then, the rapist should only be punished for that secondary crime. Rape? What’s that?
You have to wonder why he and his ilk are so heavily invested in defining rape out of existence. The fact that they don’t even think marital rape exists, while simultaneously rushing to defend it….they get so, so angry at the idea that marriage isn’t an ironclad contract guaranteeing them 24/7 access to someone else’s body. They act like it’s a huge betrayal of manhood not to have at least one socially/legally sanctioned arrangement in life where they get to have sex on tap, and never have to worry about consent.
Yeesh. If that’s their idea of marriage, then they need to go their own way. Far, far away. Preferably to a planet made entirely of Lego, with Lego oceans and a Lego atmosphere, which gets bombarded regularly by Lego meteorites.
Oh, and apparently, telling rape victims to “get over their injury and move on with their lives” is sound advice, but telling men to “get over yourselves and go masturbate” is unforgivably insulting and results in an immediate ban for trolling and derailing.
But they’re not a hate site, no sirree.
And, of course, “Violent non-white stranger” is literally the only situation where MRAs will call it rape. Victims just can’t win for losing.
Hilarious that he thinks rapists get locked up for life! In what universe? ???? The US average is 8 or 9 years, but I doubt they all stay the whole time. I’ve heard prison is worse for child rapists, but I doubt the other prisoners are like, “that guy violated a woman’s body! Get him!” I guess if his mission is to keep convicted rapists from being locked up for life… mission accomplished?
Sadly I know someone who uses the ‘get over it, it isn’t a big deal’ line’. My mother – who is not exactly anti feminist, but obviously not feminist. She conceded that if the victim was a virgin it would be a big deal. I was young at the time, so I did not argue with her like I would now.
I will admit that I also believe no one should go to prison for rape, but that’s just because I’m a very hardcore prison abolitionist. I don’t believe people should go to prison for murder, either.
I have a feeling that MRA objections to imprisonment for rape are not based on an ideological distaste for the prison-industrial complex, though.
I hate it when pages do this crap. I got banned from “MUH men’s rights activism” when they said it’s okay to fear all men if your hurt by one man and I asked “so if I’m hurt by feminists I can dislike feminism?”. It was a honest question.
Irony is their the page that shared this link, funny.
I don’t wonder. The majority are very likely rapists excusing their own behavior and trying to place their shame onto their victims. Guilt is a hell of a thing to live with. It will eat you up. It makes it easier for them to sleep at night to pretend they aren’t “really” rapists.
The rest just want to be rapists and likely will be if ever given the chance. They say as much with their rape apology.
Rapists and abusers support rape and abuse. That’s who MRAs are.
pita,
I can agree that prisons need drastic reform yesterday and many, many people do not belong in prison. But, no. Rapists should not be free to rape again. The effect they have on the world is too toxic. It is not only the victims of the rape that are harmed but every little girl who has to walk the world in constant fear.
@pita
Instead of prison, what do you think should happen when someone commits a crime? Some form of restorative justice, perhaps? I also think our prison system is badly broken and needs to be fixed.
Regarding the thing about rape survivors being told to forgive their attackers:
I watched a movie a few years ago called “Forgiving the Bad Man.” It was from some small (conservative, in my opinion) Christian film company, the type that’s trying to make alternatives to ebil Hollywood films.
Basically, a 20-year-old virgin (who is living at home and working a menial job, despite obviously being middle-class?) gets raped by a stranger, turns him in (the film really glosses over the legal part), has the baby and /brings him to the jail to meet his father/, who gets reformed in jail before getting killed protecting his baby mama and son. It seemed like the movie promoted the idea that survivors of rape are expected to forgive their rapists; if the rapist had lived, I wonder if she would have been expected to marry him.
Anyway, I’ve never been in that kind of situation, so when I saw the movie, my thought process was roughly “Oh… forgiving people is good… so it’s good that she forgave him,” but this thread has really made me rethink things.
Thoughts?
Well, that’s the most nauseatingly misogynistic film summary I’ve read since
MRA Conspiracy Theories: The MovieGone Girl.Restorative justice has some problems. I am not an expert on it, but from what I’ve seen there is too high of a pressure for victims to enter into a dialogue with perpetrators and forgive them at the end of the process. That is two problematic pressures and neither of them are good. There is also the problem of: how exactly is someone who has been sexually assaulted to be “restored”? I really don’t understand how restorative justice is supposed to work for a rape victim who never wants to see the rapist again and is re-traumatized if forced to interact with the rapist.
If you know more about it, I would certainly welcome more information.