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A Voice for Men is banning commenters who challenge Amartya Talukdar’s marital rape apologia

Rape survivor advocate Nayreen Daruwalla speaks to Indian women
Rape survivor advocate Nayreen Daruwalla speaks to Indian women. Click on pic to see her on CNN

So I was wondering if any of A Voice for Men’s readers had spoken up in the comments there about a rather sensitive subject: the fact that the supposed “human rights” site recently published a post that was not only 1) an apologia for marital rape but also, 2) written by a Holocaust denier and Hitler fan.

When I took at look at the comments there this morning, the answer was (of course) no: there was no mention of AVFM contributor Amartya Talukdar’s numerous Tweets describing the Holocaust as a hoax, Hitler as a great man, and Hillary Clinton as a “Jewess.”

Instead, I found that those who challenged Talukdar’s post (archived here) — which defended the Indian government’s refusal to see marital rape as rape — got harsh rebukes from other AVFM commenters and the site’s moderators, who went so far as to actually ban two commenters unhappy with Talukdar’s rape apologia.

No, really.

Take a look at the response one Donald J. Kingsbury got when he challenged Talukdar’s post.

donald j kingsbury  codebusters • 2 days ago There can be rape in marriage. Sadly Paul and the others will censor this, cause they don't believe in freedom. 1  • Reply•Share ›  Avatar Jason Beverly  donald j kingsbury • a day ago Dude,you seem to be fat headed white knight.Kindly carry your noble crusade of "CONCERN TROLLING" somewhere else.  • Reply•Share ›  Avatar Magnus  donald j kingsbury • 2 days ago Actually, they tend not to censor, but will (and did) ban you.  • Reply•Share ›  Avatar Grumpy Old Man Mod  donald j kingsbury • 2 days ago There can be rape in marriage. Sadly Paul and the others will censor this, cause they don't believe in freedom. Absolutely correct...but you are derailing the concerns of this article and appear to be simply Trolling.

It didn’t take long for Kingsbury’s prediction to come true.

 

donald j kingsbury • 2 days ago This page is shifty comedy. Just because you are married to someone doesn't mean they owe you sex, or even have to have kids with you. If she doesn't want to have sex, she doesn't want to have sex. She is not an object to be controlled, or something that is owned. And just because yr married doesn't mean she owes you sex when you want, go masturbate and get over yourselves. 1  • Reply•Share ›  Avatar Grumpy Old Man Mod  donald j kingsbury • 2 days ago You have been banned because of a serious and direct violation of Comment Policy (derailing and trolling). [Ref: 4895]  Additional remarks:  Yup,and no one is contesting that here.

This is what happens if you challenge the consensus at AVFM. Even if what you are challenging is an article by a Holocaust denier arguing that marital rape doesn’t exist because “marriage is consent.”

One commenter was unhappy with Grumpy Old Man’s response:

Alfredio  Grumpy Old Man • 2 days ago WTF is going on here. An article condoning marital rape gets posted and now you're banning people for 'derailing'. April 1st was a long time ago... Yet, derailing? I actually read that right...  AVFM has some fairly inflammatory stuff sometimes but usually in context I can see that it's actually egalitarian, just framed in a way to get people talking. But this, this is just disgusting. And now you're using the classic feminist tactic of banning someone for 'derailing' and expressing a different point of view.  This article should be removed immediately. Unless you want to provide real reasons to have this classified as a hate site.

His candid comment earned him this rebuke from AVFM’s top mod:

driversuz Mod  Alfredio • a day ago Derailing *and trolling*  "go masturbate and get over yourselves" is not a "different point of view;" it's an expression of disdain for the work we do.  As for this article being removed immediately, tell you what: after YOU devote years of your life to building a solid, well read site like AVfM, you can make all the editorial decisions you like. M'kay?  And btw, this site was never classified as a hate site. Get with the program already.

Never mind that the article in question defended the “right” of men to sex-on-demand from their wives by lamenting that if women in India were allowed to say no to their husbands, these poor fellows might have to resort to masturbation. Because in Talukdar’s view, evidently, it’s better for men to rape their wives than for them to be “forced” to masturbate.

There’s a lot more terribleness in the comments there, but to me the worst comes from a regular AVFM commenter who calls himself Shrek6, who has evidently convinced himself that “rape is not that bad a crime against a woman or human being.”

“A woman or human being.” That’s actually what he wrote.

Shrek6  Peter Wright • 2 days ago Where do you find all this stuff? I'm sure you're part sniffer dog!  And what a prophetic piece. We are not far from that now. Sickening actually, when you come to think of it. Very frightening.  You see young men in the US locked up for tens if not hundreds of years, simply for raping a woman. Rape is not that bad a crime against a woman or human being, when you compare it to murder, seriously bad assault, decades of imprisonment and abuse, etc, is worse. I mean, any form of child abuse is by far worse than the rape of an adult woman. If she is raped and bashed, then that is a different story. The perp should be locked up for rape and grievous bodily harm for some years that satisfies all of society, not just women. He still should not be locked up for the term of his natural life.  What the hell is going on with society today? Why is it that men/boys, guilty or innocent, should be forced to die in prison, just because they got some sex without paying for it, or the woman lied about it? Even if they assaulted her, they still should not be left in prison to die of old age, if they have redeemed and rehabilitated themselves.  This is not just a human rights abuse against men, it is sheer madness!

Heck, he explains in another comment, vaginas are tough, so most women don’t really suffer all that much from rape. As he sees it, most women can get over rape pretty easily if they can be convinced to forgive their rapists.

No, that’s what he really thinks:

Shrek6  Jeff • 2 days ago No women are punished for the rapes they commit. In fact it is believed they simply can't rape. Big joke hey.  Knowing the anatomical structures and what they look like on the inside, I can tell you that a man being forcibly raped up the rear end, is going to suffer horrendous injuries and women will suffer much less. Unless of course the rape of the woman is brutal and physically abusive.  The vagina is built to withstand some pretty harsh punishment, which is why you see a lot women enjoying some very rough sex.  On the other hand. The rectum is much thinner and unable to take that kind of punishment and is much easier to damage.  Knowing the above, I can see that the major injury suffered by women who are raped without assault, being that of psych and emotional, which will be understandably significant. If the woman is properly cared for with positive reinforcement to forgive the perp and get over their injury and move on with their lives, then most should do quite well.  And I am 'very obviously' not talking about the really bad cases!  I fail to see why any rape conviction from a rape that has occurred without any physical force and injury, that the perp should go to prison for much longer than a year to two MAX. It is ridiculous and abusive to say any longer.  Even IF they prosecuted women for raping men, there is no way they would go to prison for more than a month or two. If they went to prison at all.  And what about the men who are raped by men, and suffer all those internal injuries like I detailed above? I'll bet not much is done to give these victims the remedy they deserve.

These two comments are considered acceptable discourse at AVFM. Comments bluntly challenging an apologia for marital rape aren’t.

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

I’m slightly worried by that kitten holding the milk bottle. That’s just one step away from opposable thumbs; then we’re all fucked. Once they can pull triggers that’s all of us slaving away in the Tuna Fish mines.

Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

bvh
bvh
5 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

The Planet of the Cats? Hasn’t that already happened? Without one shot being fired?

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

They’re very subtle. But if they evolve the ability to use tin openers they won’t need us any more. We’ll just be amusing playthings they allow to stay around on their whim.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

A huge majority of cats hate water and sleep 20 hours a day, so they still need us for tuna fishing and working to provide for them. We are needed until we make robots do everything.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ batman na banana

until we make robots do everything.
,

If the cats make robots won’t the robots run off and marry MGTOWs though? 🙂

[I still think ‘Mr Miggy-Toes’ is a great name for a cat]

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

Cats are not that kind. Or productive. They are an apathetic and lazy beast who coax on their cute looks and fuzzy ways and teeny beanie toes and adorable whiskers.

They also will jump head first into the wall if you point a laser pointer at it.

Thus they will not make any robots but will only use the robots humans provide for them. They have better things to do then create a society and culture. Like getting the bellies rubbed and then attacking the person rubbing their belly because of all the static electricity.

They are the most ingenious creatures.

(Also I am the Goddamn Batman Na Banana.)

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ GODDAMN Batman Na Banana

Cats run on static electricity? Like Daleks then; knew it!

Philip Rose
Philip Rose
5 years ago

AVFM does massive amounts of censorship. Blocking and banning those who disagree with them after insulting them with ad hom is par for the course with them.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

I had a sudden realization reading the first thread capped at the top of this post.

When MRAs use the term “white knight” what they really mean is “anyone who doesn’t hate women with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.” They aren’t using the term properly. That’s why their references to white-knighting have never made sense to me.

I don’t think this donald kingsbury is even close to a feminist, but his hatred of women clearly doesn’t burn bright enough for him to think raping women is fine; therefore, he is labeled a white knight.

Wow. I’m sure this comes as no revelation to anyone else, but it was a eureka moment for me.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

They are nature’s robots, minus the Three Laws of Robotics.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

When the Cat Revolution happens, probably before the Sexbot Revolution does, I shall be hunkered down in my house with a hundred high-powered water guns, sonic sound blasters and some very menacing looking (but otherwise sweet as sugar) German Shepherds.

You are welcome to join me. I will stay alert for other survivors.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

Behold for I have seen the future.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@sunnysombrera

I’d build a tank and kill people if I were a sphynx too.

Nik
Nik
5 years ago

@Policy of Madness

You’re right, the usage of “white knight” is noteworthy, and incredibly derogatory in the context that MRAs use it.

The definition of a white knight:

“1 : one that comes to the rescue of another; especially : a corporation invited to buy out a second corporation in order to prevent an undesired takeover by a third”

MRAs are so adamant in defending their lack of hatred for women and I don’t doubt them for a second. They don’t hate women any more than they hate houses, or furniture, or business ventures.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

@Nik

Well, “white knight” does have a legit feminist usage, which is probably where the MRAs got the term. A guy white-knights a woman when he “comes to her rescue” in a way that ignores or erases her agency. She may or may not have actually needed the assistance, but the manner in which the assistance is provided is a patriarchal one that treats her condescendingly.

The classic example is when a woman says something and it gets ignored, so the white knight steps in and says, “Let me handle this,” and then he just takes over the dialogue.

Sarity
Sarity
5 years ago

Of course, Olive O’Sudden. Much as I love this blog, it’s left me with an increased need to have industrial brain bleach at the ready.

andiexist
andiexist
5 years ago

…somehow I had a nap and dreamed about trying to explain why rape apology was bad to an MRA. This being dream logic, I think a kitten was involved. Probably because all the brain bleach on this site linked kittens to feminism for me. (Which is pretty cool, but doesn’t explain why dream-me thought the logical argument was “this is bad because kitten.”)

Sorry about being off-topic, but one of the comments here reminded me. o_O

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

this is bad because kitten.

Did the kitten have a tank?

shannon
shannon
5 years ago

I am one of those women. I have forgiven my people who have raped me. And I can easily see why some women don’t. Because there are some I haven’t.

I can forgive the man who didn’t realize (while mostly asleep to the point of not being able to really remember the incident) I was incapable of giving consent because I was dissociating. Had he been awake he would have noticed. Had I been able to speak, he would have taken a “no”.

The man that I told no to, who I pushed away from me, who I did everything possible to stop, him I don’t forgive.

The man who got hot holding me down to stop self harm and accepted my yes when he asked me for sex, him I don’t forgive.

the man who came to “comfort” me and brought condoms over knowing I was dealing with brand new trauma, got me drunk, and pressured me into sex by suggesting he should just leave (while I was DESPERATE to not be alone) if we weren’t going to have sex, him I don’t forgive.

And not one of them was less than traumatic. The fact someone didn’t mean to doesn’t change how it felt looking up at the man I loved violating me while I was unable to speak. The fact that I forgave that one doesn’t make that pain go away.

The fact that I didn’t forgive the others doesn’t make them hurt more. And it certainly doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have been punished.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Ugh, I came back from an awesome sushi birthday dinner to be reminded that this is a thing.

Whelp, good thing one of my gifts was a tub of sea salt caramel ice cream then.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Ooh, Happy Birthday!!!

epitome of incomprehensibility

Happy Birthday!

Uh-huh. The problem with AVfM now is that they’re acting like feminists. Because defending people’s “right” to commit crimes is totally a thing most feminists do.

wordsp1nner
5 years ago

I… what… That’s not…

This post needs Cole and Marmalade:

Bonus Misandry:

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

@Bina
As many internet hugs as you want. I’m sorry you experienced such a jerk.

According to this expert in WTFology, I should probably forgive my rapist because I’m feeeemale and probably somehow designed to withstand anal rape. Anal rape is only bad when it happens to teh menz. I wonder if he’d even class oral stuff as rape as long as it happens to a woman.

I’m proud to be raising sons who understand consent.

Thanks…and right back atcha with a box of kittens! Good on your sons, too…the world needs more like them. And you for raising them right.

Yeah, I wasn’t hurt or anything, but I still don’t feel like forgiving. I mean, he had his knees on either side of my head; he could have crushed my windpipe just by sitting down. And he stopped without “finishing”, so I suppose that’s a small mercy. The dude got away with it; isn’t that enough? Fuck forgiving that. I only hope he smartened up and didn’t try that with anyone else. Ironically, earlier that evening, he’d rescued me from his roommate, who was apparently hellbent on actually “rape-raping” me. One would think he’d understand that “surprise” oral wasn’t kosher. But nooooo.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Also, Happy Birthday, Paradoxical! That ice cream sounds yummy. Caramel AND salt, two of my favorite munchie flavors combined? Perfect. Don’t let the AVFMotherfuckers get you down!

Myriad
Myriad
5 years ago

Hugs to everyone who needs them.

Happy Birthday Paradox!

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Thanks for the birthday wishes everyone! I had a pretty good birthday, all this shit aside. I got to try new sushis!

And my uncle took me to an awesome place where sushi’s half off after five PM!

lith
lith
5 years ago

Happy birthday Paradoxical!

lith
lith
5 years ago

Rape is so much worse when it’s done to men – or it is if you’ve never experienced rape, don’t live under the constant fear it might happen to you if you aren’t ‘careful’, can’t or won’t even imagine what it would be like to have it happen to you and want to be able to rape women with impunity.
These people have no empathy. “I don’t mind being raped” said no-one, ever.
I don’t want them to be raped, but I can’t help feeling that everyone would benefit from them experiencing that sense of powerlessness, invasion and violation. Then the self doubt, recriminations, accusations of lying, fear of it being repeated or follow-up violence to keep them from telling etc.
Or they could just listen to what women are telling them about how it’s bad and don’t do it.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Aw, thank you Spindrift! 😀

Quartzok-43
Quartzok-43
5 years ago

“are tough, so most women don’t really suffer all that much from rape.”

From the same who religiously believes vaginas gets stretched and women are “used” by too much sex, lol!

dhag85
5 years ago

@Quartzok-43

Good point. They think an “untouched vagina” is the only value a woman will ever have. So.. rape (of a virgin) takes away the only value a woman can have, but it’s totally not a big deal.

Another contradiction in the narrative. How many are we up to now?

dhag85
5 years ago

Umm, in my previous comment I didn’t mean to imply that only vaginal rape is rape, or anything like that. Sorry.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

“Hey, the mugger only took $3.00 from you. It’s not like he stole a hundred. Now THAT would be a crime.”

What a fucking idiot Shrek6 is. Essentially, he’s trying to argue that rape should only be prosecuted if another crime is committed alongside it, like assault. And then, the rapist should only be punished for that secondary crime. Rape? What’s that?

You have to wonder why he and his ilk are so heavily invested in defining rape out of existence. The fact that they don’t even think marital rape exists, while simultaneously rushing to defend it….they get so, so angry at the idea that marriage isn’t an ironclad contract guaranteeing them 24/7 access to someone else’s body. They act like it’s a huge betrayal of manhood not to have at least one socially/legally sanctioned arrangement in life where they get to have sex on tap, and never have to worry about consent.

Yeesh. If that’s their idea of marriage, then they need to go their own way. Far, far away. Preferably to a planet made entirely of Lego, with Lego oceans and a Lego atmosphere, which gets bombarded regularly by Lego meteorites.

Oh, and apparently, telling rape victims to “get over their injury and move on with their lives” is sound advice, but telling men to “get over yourselves and go masturbate” is unforgivably insulting and results in an immediate ban for trolling and derailing.

But they’re not a hate site, no sirree.

M.
M.
5 years ago

I get why it happened too. She fit the profile of a false allegation. Mental disorders, claims of excessive violence, and involvement of a stranger. (The only other thing police are told to watch out for is blaming it on minority perpetrators)

And, of course, “Violent non-white stranger” is literally the only situation where MRAs will call it rape. Victims just can’t win for losing.

noisyninja
noisyninja
5 years ago

Hilarious that he thinks rapists get locked up for life! In what universe? ???? The US average is 8 or 9 years, but I doubt they all stay the whole time. I’ve heard prison is worse for child rapists, but I doubt the other prisoners are like, “that guy violated a woman’s body! Get him!” I guess if his mission is to keep convicted rapists from being locked up for life… mission accomplished?

Ellesar
Ellesar
5 years ago

Sadly I know someone who uses the ‘get over it, it isn’t a big deal’ line’. My mother – who is not exactly anti feminist, but obviously not feminist. She conceded that if the victim was a virgin it would be a big deal. I was young at the time, so I did not argue with her like I would now.

pita
pita
5 years ago

I will admit that I also believe no one should go to prison for rape, but that’s just because I’m a very hardcore prison abolitionist. I don’t believe people should go to prison for murder, either.

I have a feeling that MRA objections to imprisonment for rape are not based on an ideological distaste for the prison-industrial complex, though.

Genny
5 years ago

I hate it when pages do this crap. I got banned from “MUH men’s rights activism” when they said it’s okay to fear all men if your hurt by one man and I asked “so if I’m hurt by feminists I can dislike feminism?”. It was a honest question.
Irony is their the page that shared this link, funny.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

You have to wonder why he and his ilk are so heavily invested in defining rape out of existence.

I don’t wonder. The majority are very likely rapists excusing their own behavior and trying to place their shame onto their victims. Guilt is a hell of a thing to live with. It will eat you up. It makes it easier for them to sleep at night to pretend they aren’t “really” rapists.
The rest just want to be rapists and likely will be if ever given the chance. They say as much with their rape apology.

Rapists and abusers support rape and abuse. That’s who MRAs are.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

pita,
I can agree that prisons need drastic reform yesterday and many, many people do not belong in prison. But, no. Rapists should not be free to rape again. The effect they have on the world is too toxic. It is not only the victims of the rape that are harmed but every little girl who has to walk the world in constant fear.

Silky
5 years ago

@pita

Instead of prison, what do you think should happen when someone commits a crime? Some form of restorative justice, perhaps? I also think our prison system is badly broken and needs to be fixed.

Silky
5 years ago

Regarding the thing about rape survivors being told to forgive their attackers:
I watched a movie a few years ago called “Forgiving the Bad Man.” It was from some small (conservative, in my opinion) Christian film company, the type that’s trying to make alternatives to ebil Hollywood films.
Basically, a 20-year-old virgin (who is living at home and working a menial job, despite obviously being middle-class?) gets raped by a stranger, turns him in (the film really glosses over the legal part), has the baby and /brings him to the jail to meet his father/, who gets reformed in jail before getting killed protecting his baby mama and son. It seemed like the movie promoted the idea that survivors of rape are expected to forgive their rapists; if the rapist had lived, I wonder if she would have been expected to marry him.
Anyway, I’ve never been in that kind of situation, so when I saw the movie, my thought process was roughly “Oh… forgiving people is good… so it’s good that she forgave him,” but this thread has really made me rethink things.
Thoughts?

M.
M.
5 years ago

Basically, a 20-year-old virgin (who is living at home and working a menial job, despite obviously being middle-class?) gets raped by a stranger, turns him in (the film really glosses over the legal part), has the baby and /brings him to the jail to meet his father/, who gets reformed in jail before getting killed protecting his baby mama and son. It seemed like the movie promoted the idea that survivors of rape are expected to forgive their rapists; if the rapist had lived, I wonder if she would have been expected to marry him.

Well, that’s the most nauseatingly misogynistic film summary I’ve read since MRA Conspiracy Theories: The Movie Gone Girl.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

Instead of prison, what do you think should happen when someone commits a crime? Some form of restorative justice, perhaps? I also think our prison system is badly broken and needs to be fixed.

Restorative justice has some problems. I am not an expert on it, but from what I’ve seen there is too high of a pressure for victims to enter into a dialogue with perpetrators and forgive them at the end of the process. That is two problematic pressures and neither of them are good. There is also the problem of: how exactly is someone who has been sexually assaulted to be “restored”? I really don’t understand how restorative justice is supposed to work for a rape victim who never wants to see the rapist again and is re-traumatized if forced to interact with the rapist.

If you know more about it, I would certainly welcome more information.