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antifeminism creepy evil fat fatties irony alert men who should not ever be with women ever misogyny MRA red pill sex workers sexual exploitation

A Voice for Men fights for the rights of men by fat-shaming women — and men

From AVFM's Facebook page.
From AVFM’s Facebook page.

Men’s Rights hate site A Voice for Men has a long history of fat shaming: apparently, like Roosh V and assorted other Red Pill douchebags, the good folks at AVFM consider the existence of fat women to be an assault on manhood, and possibly civilization itself.

Because that’s just the sort of human rights activists they are.

But even by AVFM’s low standards for logic, their latest little meme campaign against the evil fatties is a bit puzzling. Take the meme at the top of the page, found on AVFM’s Facebook page.

As an assault on “double standards” it’s a little odd, assuming that people find male employment and female thinness to be similarly sexually attractive. As an antifeminist “gotcha” — as I imagine its creator intended it to be — it makes even less sense. Feminists aren’t the ones telling men to “man up” and provide for women like the patriarchs of some imaginary golden age.

And if MRAs don’t want women to look to men for financial support, well, they could stop handwaving away the very real gender wage gap. And give up their endless attacks on child support as well as their fantasy of “financial abortions.” It’s hard to blame single mothers trying to raise kids on their own, often with inadequate or even non-existent support from the fathers in question, for thinking twice about dating guys who could end up demanding financial support themselves.

What makes the meme even weirder is that AVFMers don’t really want to give up fat shaming. So the overall effect of this meme is to … justify throwing shade at men who fail to live up to the traditional provider role that AVFM ostensibly opposes.

The meme below is an even more ironic variation on the theme.

Source: AVFM's Facebook page.
Source: AVFM’s Facebook page.

Why is it more ironic? Because there actually are men out there interested in “dating” homeless women — and by “dating” I mean exploiting the desperation of young women living on the streets who are willing to trade sex for food, shelter, or drugs.

How do I know this? Well, aside from having heard stories from several women who were themselves exploited in this way, I know because guys aspiring to exploit homeless women keep showing up on this blog.

Several years ago, you see, I wrote about an incredibly skeevy post on Matt Forney’s old blog In Mala Fide touting homeless girls as a frugal alternative to pricey prostitutes. The author of the post, calling himself Advocatus Diaboli, suggested focusing on “freshly homeless young girls” with hippie inclinations, reporting that

a decent round of drinks, snacks, money for pot, a small necessary item of clothing, decent dinner with booze will almost guarantee you a good lay (or at least a couple of BJs).

Ever since I wrote that post, my blog has gotten a small but steady trickle of visitors who’ve found the site through Google searches for things like “homeless girl paid to have sex,” “homeless prostitutes,” and “how to get the homeless to have sex eith [sic] you.” These are all real examples from the past week; I see a handful of queries like this every time I take a look at my stats.

So congratulations, skeezy dudes, you’ve managed to overcome the prejudice against homeless people, with your boners.

Meanwhile, back on Facebook, AVFM is expanding its fat shaming crusade to include men as well.

Source: AVFM's Facebook page
Source: AVFM’s Facebook page

In the United States, we should note, more than two-thirds of men (70%) are classified as “overweight” or “obese” — a rate even higher than that for women (57.6%). Apparently AVFM’s much vaunted “compassion for men and boys” only applies to 30% of them.

I don’t mean to be rude, but there are a number of AVFM staffers — male and female — who are themselves, well, “overweight” or “obese.” I wonder how they feel about volunteering for a site that regularly portrays people like them as little more than walking punchlines for unfunny memes.

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M.
M.
6 years ago

@Polymath Father

Pelagic isn’t snarking, they’re a troll whose schtick is posting straw nonsense in the hopes that somebody agrees and they can wrangle a gotcha out of it. Needless to say, nobody’s ever agreed yet.

Pvt. Richard (@privaterichard)

It’s also worth mentioning here that, among misogynists, “fat” (when applied to a woman) is really just an all-purpose insult. It doesn’t often even /mean/ “fat,” or get applied to women that would generally be considered fat. My asshole misogynist dad, for example, would berate my mom for being “fat” because he strongly believed that any woman (regardless of height or body composition) who weighed more than 110 lbs was “fat,” and a direct insult to his highly sensitive aesthetics. Or think about all the times you’ve seen someone call Michelle Freaking Obama “fat,” which is obviously just… incorrect.

“Fat” doesn’t mean “overweight,” to them. It means “too big.” That “bigness” that threatens them has nothing to do with body composition and everything to do with daring to take up the full space allotted a human being in the world.

Dvärghundspossen
6 years ago

Once again they based their memes on straw feminism and their own completely made-up reality…
Firstly, they believe that men value women because of their looks (not solely, perhaps, since according to them, women should be submissive as well, but looks are no doubt very important to them) and women value men solely based on their income. Therefore, a woman being fat (that is, unattractive according to conventional norms) is comparable to a man being poor, since both traits will cause the opposite sex to shun them.

Now, MRA:s believe both that this is how the world works, and also that feminists care nothing for the plight of men, so that feminists believe that although men should stop fat-shaming women and start appreciating women of all sizes, it’s perfectly okay for women to keep on shaming poor and homeless men and only appreciate the rich ones. That’s the alleged double standard that they want to abolish.

Comprehensible if you know enough about their weird views… otherwise just a bit WTF.

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

It would probably kill them to realize that some of us (probably all) are also anti-poverty activists, because we know that poverty hurts women even more than it does men. Not that it doesn’t hurt men, of course, but most of them are NOT forced to sell their bodies just to eat/feed their kids/keep a roof over their heads/etc.

ssaly88
6 years ago

Loving the heavy projection here. All I can see in those memes are, “Well, I think that women should have be attracted to every single guy who is attracted to them, so that’s what fat acceptance means, right? That I have to be attracted to women I’m not attracted to? Right?”

The gods forbid that they ever actually read up on the movement or try to comprehend it. Nope, just take whatever MRAs believe and reverse it in favor of women instead and call it feminism/fat acceptance/any other movement that tries to better the lives of women and girls. Fantastic.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I really do think Pelagic is a gamergater. They got their start here trying to lure us into saying that video games are evil because they remain convinced that’s what Anita Sarkeesian’s message is. When that didn’t happen, zie started in on other topics. I don’t know how much longer it’s going to take before they notice that nobody is biting and just give up.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

It’s kind of telling that they think the operating word “beautiful” is synonymous with “sexy,” as if “big is beautiful” campaigns were solely about attraction rather than general positive body image and self-esteem. Pretty revealing of their internal “it must be all about me” attitude.

Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
6 years ago

“A flower should never fly from bee, to bee, to bee.”

Well I wouldn’t suck on a lollipop that had been inside several other people already, no matter how hard it was rinsed off afterwards. How do you like that?

Also, look how much AVfM care about homeless men! Homeless men, you are just like fat women – worthless, lazy, ugly, and a general blight on humanity. Clearly you need to be shamed into getting a house and a job, or at least a woman and gullible followers to leech from.

Professor fate
Professor fate
6 years ago

Re these memes I can only say: Sense this makes a bit not of…
Re preying on the homeless for sex – Those people are monsters plain and simple. After thinking about what kind of person would do that, my brain needs a shower .

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

I’d also like to point out the hypocrisy of MRAs claiming that homelessness is a men’s issue they care about. Yet they have no problem using a picture someone took of a homeless man that someone put online in order to make a stupid meme. Thus furthering the attitude that the homeless are like zoo animals for the rest of us to gawk at. So human rightsy!

maghavan
maghavan
6 years ago

Funny. I think too many people take what these guys are saying too much at face value.

A lot of these fat-shamers strike me as cases where “the lady doth protest too much”. My personal belief is that a lot of this shit is driven by simple Projection where the hater/shamers redirect their guilt/shame over their own attractions onto the object of those attractions. Others might be more consciously adopting a pose and trying to hide an attraction that they think will get them ridiculed by their peers. Either way, I assure you that there are plenty of boners that are not only not oppressed but thriving … even if wracked by guilt.

brooked
brooked
6 years ago

@Lynne

Quote: In my lifetime I’ve seen a small number of women who believe that fat acceptance/fighting against body shaming is all about converting men’s boners by admonishing men into finding fat women attractive (and by this, I mean these women say this to support the idea not to discredit or make fun of it).

Quote:I haven’t, and searches on both Google and DDG reveal nothing. Where did you see this?

I’ve seen comments to that effect on sites like reddit and tumblr.

There are a lot, and I mean a whole lot, of trolls, parodies and fakery on reddit and tumblr, particularly tumblr. Sure, there are women who genuinely believe all sorts of stupid, offensive and/or goofy things, but I tend to be skeptical when it comes to those sites in particular.

2aimai
2aimai
6 years ago

I don’t see many women concerned with “converting men’s boners” as a goal. There are certainly people who are hurting from rejection, both men and women, or longing for acceptance, both men and women. But looking for aroused boners from generic strangers? Or attempting to create forced sexual attraction? Its not a major political goal of feminism.

Again, I think the real fear from MRAs/PUAs of FA is teh same fear that activates any authoritarian–the fear that someone else is not being punished and not following “the rules.” It doesn’t matter whether the rules are though to be god given, or parental, or based on stupid eve psych. Authoritarians love the idea that harsh rules must be followed and that people who don’t accept authority will suffer. Women (and men) who accept and enjoy their own bodies without turning towards authorities/society/magazines/men to tell them whether they are winners or losers are a very scary thing. Like slaves who have run away and are living free in the woods. The self loathing these guys feel can only be assuaged by believing that other people are even unhappier, that their own ugliness/poverty/grief is exceeded only by someone else, lower down on the social scale. They become enraged and terrified by someone telling them there is no hell and there is no punishment for being fat.**

**If anyone heard the NPR piece a few years ago about a famous mega preacher who lost his church following when he refused to preach the existence of hell you will know what I’m talking about. You’d think, naively, that people who believe in heaven and hell would be thrilled to know that there was no hell and no one was going to be condemned to it. But his flock became absolutely enraged at the thought that *other people* weren’t going to suffer.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

“You should have sex with plus sized men.” Because the opposite is exactly what feminists argue.

https://www.facebook.com/102001393188684/photos/a.392418540813633.89052.102001393188684/815714285150721/?type=1&theater

At least, for once, FOR ONCE, in the comments they called the image “irony” and while not actually correct (the proper word is ‘parody’) they did manage to recognise a form of satire when it was actually satire!

Also can anyone make sense of this comment that was under the above meme? I can’t screencap, so here is a transcript sans names.
MRA 1: And if a fat man asks you for sex, you need to give it to him. Sound familiar?
MRA 2: If women don’t have sex with fat men, they are raping fat men.

Seriously what is that I don’t even.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

Oh yeah, and unable to resist making yet another fat joke at David, AVFM commented:

This may be the only meme we ever post that David Futrelle will like and share.

Paradoxical Intention
6 years ago

sunnysombrera | May 4, 2015 at 3:40 pm
Oh yeah, and unable to resist making yet another fat joke at David, AVFM commented:

This may be the only meme we ever post that David Futrelle will like and share.

Because of course they did. Because the MRA never mention men they claim to fight for in a positive light unless it’s to bludgeon a feminist over the head with some sort of failed “gotcha”.

Any other time though, it’s “Lol, fatties!”

Bina
Bina
6 years ago

MRA 1: And if a fat man asks you for sex, you need to give it to him. Sound familiar?
MRA 2: If women don’t have sex with fat men, they are raping fat men.

Translation: Hey ladies, we’re fat. So, you gonna fuck us, or what?

(And the logical answer: Nope. And not because you’re fat, either.)

Binjabreel
6 years ago

So I spend a lot of time lurking on the chans because I’m fascinated by the foul dregs of the human psyche.

And during GamerGate there *totes* was a shitload of “let’s infiltrate social justice movements and destroy them by radicalizing them!” type bullshit “op” planning. I remember laughing my ass off since it was clear these duncewads had long since forgotten how normal human interaction is supposed to work.

Anyway, I’m just throwing that out there, since it seems to describe pelagic’s schtick pretty well. Of course if s/he would like to respond I’d be interested in hearing it.

Lanariel
Lanariel
6 years ago

All this talk about how being fat is the end of the world for them just makes me wish i had another 250:- SEK to burn on candy.

DaveL
DaveL
6 years ago

It’s funny how they’re essentially saying “if fat women are human beings with value and dignity, then so are unemployed men”- expecting that feminists will disagree. I’ve never met a feminist who wouldn’t say “yes, yes they are.”

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Weird comparison, unemployment and obesity. One’s a physical characteristic. One’s employment status.

Anyways, I don’t know where the notion “Big is beautiful” is the product of feminism comes from (aside from their arses.) No one has to find fat people attractive. Lots do. Lots don’t. That’s great. The fact social disadvantages associated with obesity are weighted against women to a greater extent than they are against men is a feminist issue, sure, but feminism didn’t produce the idea fat is attractive.

In a more general sense of fat people being people deserving of dignity and basic respect isn’t inherently feminist either. It’s not specific to women and girls. It’s not something borne of feminism. It’s just….. reasonable.

The unemployment bit is just fucking weird though. These are the dudes that complain endlessly about women not working and now they’re arguing for the dignity of unemployed men. Why doesn’t that apply to women?

But these are the same people who complain about women who work too so why the fuck am I asking for any consistency?

Pavlov's House
Pavlov's House
6 years ago

I have a question that I know may seem somewhat off-topic, but I am going to try to connect it to the topic. RooshV has been mentioned lately owing to his fat-shaming and was mentioned in this post. Roosh in some of his writings about the so-called “problem” of obese women mused that in another time he would be off fighting wars in a foreign land. I find that laughable and I find it an example of the general ludicrous tendency of PUA’s like RooshV and MRAs to associate THEIR twisted version of masculine archetypes with achievement in military service. That leads to my question – has anyone seen *anywhere* in the manosphere any reaction to the various public speeches and official communications of LTG David Morrison of the Australia Defence Force? The best-known at least in the mainstream media is his June 2013 message to the ADF on unacceptable behavior and sexual assault and harassment. He has also spoken publically on ways of reducing and preventing rape in war. I am very curious about this because Morrison’s comments and ideology CLEARLY place him within the realm of what MRA’s would call the worst of manginas. Moreover, given the tendency to associate being a “mangina” with being a beta male, certainly Morrison is clearly revealing his beta tendencies, right? Have MRA’s or other associated manosphere people ever alleged this? I’ve turned up nothing on my own searches but thought this blog a good place to ask. I find this so intriguing because with the Chief of the Army (the Australian equivalent to the U.S. Army Chief of Staff) one CLEARLY has, almost by definition, someone who IS the bad-ass that PUA’s and some MRA’s fancy themselves. I find Morrison a very gifted orator and respect him as a soldier; what I very much liked was how in the June 2013 speech he *directly* associated not harassing female servicemembers and refusing to tolerate those who do with the *same* integrity and strength of soul that every member of the Australian Army knows was present at Gallipoli, Crete, the defense of Tobruk, Alamein, the crossing of the Owen Stanleys and so on. So advocating for feminist causes coincides with some of the clearest examples of military badassery ever recorded because *it is the right thing to do*. How would MRA’s explain that? How could the spirit behind such accomplishments be present in a mangina?

Roosh wouldn’t make it through the first day at Kapooka, Parris Island, Sand Hill at Fort Benning, Lackland, Great Lakes, or any other equivalent (sorry to our Canadian allies – forgot that the Canadian equivalent is. You get the idea.)

Again, if anyone saw how MRAs and pseudo-masculine PUA’s dealt with the David Morrison contradiction, I’d be curious to see.

(I meant to ask this question two Saturdays ago on April 25 (for reasons obvious to anyone who cares to think about the ADF and NZDF) but unfortunately we here at Pavlov’s House were busy being real soldiers and teaching real history to other real soldiers and not being keyboard jockeys.

Lady Mondegreen
6 years ago

The weirdness of the memes comes from the fact that their creators can’t think clearly about the issues that obsess them so. That’s why their attempts at “satire” are unintelligible to anyone outside the Manospherian echo chamber.

They seem to think (I use the term loosely) that (1) Fat acceptance is only about women, not men; (2) Feminists think all men are somehow required to find all fat women attractive; and (3) Women who prefer to have relationships with financially stable people are just being mean.

Add the projection that has already been mentioned, and a hearty dose of self-justification (if I fat shame women it’s for their own good!) and random confusion (If you tell me to stop shaming fat women, that means you think I have to sleep with them!) and you’ve got a recipe for mind-numbing incoherence. (Yes, dudes, we’re laughing at your memes. At them, not with them.)

Another piece of their shit pies: the need to rationalize their own romantic failures. If women don’t like them, it’s because women have these cruel picky “double standards.”

Uh, no dudes. Women don’t dislike you because you’re fat, if you are. They don’t dislike you because you’re not rich, or suave, or good at sportsball.

They don’t like you because you’re hateful and self-centered.

dhag85
6 years ago

@Lanariel

Fellow Swede? 🙂

Bryce
Bryce
6 years ago

“They don’t like you because you’re hateful and self-centered.”

The hate is coming from of place of supreme bitterness and immaturity. An inability to accept that a lack of attractiveness might be a factor – most people simply won’t consider partnering up with someone they aren’t at all physically attracted to. That and you may not have much to offer anyway.

Therein lies the appeal of alternative, ego-protecting explanations that blame women, feminism, or society for personal failings/reality.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

Weird comparison, unemployment and obesity. One’s a physical characteristic. One’s employment status.

There was a dude in the comments who was arguing that if feminists support Fat Acceptance, they should support Alcoholism Acceptance too. His reasoning was that “being fat is just as unhealthy as being an alcoholic.”

I’m not sure if he was playing devil’s advocate in any way, but I don’t think I need to explain everything that’s wrong with what he said.

Victor
Victor
6 years ago

@Marinerachel

[quote]Weird comparison, unemployment and obesity. One’s a physical characteristic. One’s employment status. [/quote]

It’s actually not that weird, and makes sense if you look at the context…

It was written in response to a news story about a woman who posted two profiles on a dating site. Identical, except for the pictures that showed her as fat in one profile and slightly chubby in the other. Aaaand surprise! The fat profile got half as many responses as the other. In other news, scientists believe the sun may rise tomorrow!

Just like non-obese/overweight women (or men too for that matter) are in general seen as more attractive than overweight/obese women, generally speaking, a man with a job, especially a good one, is commonly considered more desirable by women.
(Out in wider society that is. )

That’s why they’re equalizing the two.

The nuttiness starts when they claim that it’s feminists who are behind it all. Out in the extreme left where feminists usually come from, it would be considered Tabu to list a mans occupation or income level as desirable in a partner. Or at least to admit to it.

Hellyeah
Hellyeah
6 years ago

The idea that two people click on a personal level or emotional level is so foreign to men, it doesn’t even enter their radar. And that’s because they really really really don’t see women as human beings. They see them as sex-givers. It’s mind-boggling to live your life seeing other people only in that role but it’s the truth.

Men have this arbitrary idea that all women want status, a nice car or a good-looking guy. You can’t convince them otherwise. Then the more ambitious of them try to achieve that and still can’t believe they’re not being awarded the supermodel. It’s like personality or values or behavior don’t exist for them. To them, women are sex-givers and sex has to be earned by whatever means. Instead of seeing the whole person and working on a personal connection.
And then you show them 1001 examples where a not rich or not good-looking guy has a hot girlfriend and they still won’t change their mind. I mean at some point you have to admit you’re wrong.

Oh and what I’ve never seen is women harrassing a fat guy, or even like negatively noticing him. That’s because we don’t expect men’s bodies to be our business. Yet if there was a scenario where 10 skinny women and a fat women were at a place, the majority of men would make it their job to let the fat one know she’s not desirable, even though they were ten other skinny available women for them to talk to. Like they would spend their night debating the fat of that woman instead of talking to their desired hot girls. And a lot of them would be fat guys themselves. And then they claim to hate or ignore fat women, yeah right. Stop talking about them then.

Men like to go the lazy route that bullies love so much: put other people down to make yourself look better. Because actually achieving something in life is to big of an undertaking for them. The unemployed people I’ve seen are still less of a loser than those woman-hating, entitled, delusional assholes.

Stephanie
Stephanie
6 years ago

A group (which seems to be a PUA group) did an experiment where they set up a date via Tinder and the person was a lot heavier than their photo, both with men and with women. Not surprisingly, the fat women are treated abhorrently when compared than the men– even though the lady is very nice and the guy tries his best to be as unlikable (saying he only dates fit girls and hates kids and dogs!)–yet he still gets treated a lot better than the fat woman.

Female:

Male:

Nitram
6 years ago

Um, a double standard is when you apply 2 standards to THE SAME THING. For instance sex: women must save themselves for one man but men can have all the partners they want, totes ok. 2 standards, one topic. Homelessness and fatness aren’t the same topic! They are experts on double standards! They even put double standards within double standards (women be a virgin but stop withholding sex)
God they are so good at embarrassing themselves.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

I can’t see why we shouldn’t accept alcoholics. They’re people. Like everyone else, we certainly don’t have to want them as intimate partners (or, often the case with alcoholism, tolerate the harmful behaviour associated with it) but being a drunk doesn’t make it kosher for other people to treat you like shit, Alcoholics are human.

MRAs are confused. Every time they think they have a gotcha they…… well, they don’t.

Bob
Bob
6 years ago

What’s a financial abortion?

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

@machinerachel
I don’t think that’s what he meant. I think he meant that if we accept being fat as OK, we should accept alcoholism (the behaviour, not just the person) as OK. I had to point out to him that many people carry excess weight despite a healthy lifestyle and there is nothing more they can do, while drinking to excess is entirely a choice, even if it gets to the addiction stage. Alcoholism can and does hurt the people around the alcoholic, especially if they get abusive while drunk, whereas being overweight doesn’t. And being fat doesn’t affect ability to work or be productive, meanwhile alcoholism does. I think I’m flaying the point now, so I’ll stop.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Not to thread necro, but here’s an interesting interview with someone who has studied eating behavior for decades explaining why dieting doesn’t work.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/05/04/why-diets-dont-actually-work-according-to-a-researcher-who-has-studied-them-for-decades/

Of course, the comments are predictably filled with people ignoring the science and proclaiming that Weight Watchers or eating like a perfect saintly European is the magic trick to thin. People have clearly internalized the diet industry and media messages to such an extent that they are unable to process any contradictory information.

Francis Roy
6 years ago

Once again, Futrelle, you have done your best to bend over backwards to wildly distort another’s message in the worst light possible to serve your ideological purposes.

My meaning:

Heterosexual men have a tendency to be attracted to young, healthy and comely women. Heterosexual women have the tendency to be attracted to ambitious and prosperous men. If it is in appropriate to shame women for being fat, it is equally inappropriate to shame men for lack of wealth.

Please don’t use my memes, anymore, David.

Francis Roy
6 years ago

David Futrelle said

As an antifeminist “gotcha” — as I imagine its creator intended it to be — it makes even less sense

Why imagine, when there’s a link to a form to contact me directly on my blog? 0 points for doing your due diligence.

kirbywarp
kirbywarp
6 years ago

@Francis Roy:

Heterosexual men have a tendency to be attracted to young, healthy and comely women. Heterosexual women have the tendency to be attracted to ambitious and prosperous men. If it is in appropriate to shame women for being fat, it is equally inappropriate to shame men for lack of wealth.

The inappropriateness of shaming women for being fat is not predicated on men’s attraction to women. At all. In fact, countering stereotypical notions of “attractiveness” is what things like Big is Beautiful are all about! So your analogy fails immediately.

But hey, shaming people for being fat and shaming people for being poor are both bad, so at least you’re approaching the semblence of a good idea! You know? Got that… got that going for ya.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Francis,
Got any evidence that the women who are speaking out against fat shaming are making fun of low income men? If not, you’re calling out a double standard that doesn’t actually exist. That’s why your memes are mockworthy. Usually us “SJW” types are mocked for not being libertarian capitalists.

Francis Roy
6 years ago

Francis, hon,

You do not have leave to call me by pet names.

I understood what your ostensible argument was, as you would know if you actually read my post with any degree of care. It’s just that it’s a little hard to take that seriously given AVFM’s long history of fat shaming — and your fat shaming in the meme with the fat dude.

I was pointing out that it is equally inappropriate to shame fat men as it is fat women. You have missed my point.

There was nothing on your meme to identify it as being yours. A google image search only brought me back to the AVFM facebook page.

Now you know. In the future, when you see something of that style, check my blog, and if you find it there, please don’t use it. Considering that you’ve taken the time to misrepresent a number of my other memes, I know that you are aware of where to find it.

Francis Roy
6 years ago

Got any evidence that the women who are speaking out against fat shaming are making fun of low income men?

Your question is a catch-22. Are you looking for governmental statistics? If I present one or a dozen example, you’ll dismiss it them as extreme, fringe or too-small a sample size. If I point out my experience with a life-time of speaking to large women who make the claim that she won’t date someone because he isn’t prosperous enough, you’ll likely assert that it’s anecdotal evidence. If I were to hold a poll, you’d accuse me of loading it with MRAs.

I assume that as an honest person, you’ve likely met more than one woman who is both less than a fitness model and simultaneously holds men to some a standard of ambition or prosperity, greater than her own, and that the request for evidence is a poor choice of words.

Usually us “SJW” types are mocked for not being libertarian capitalists

Typically, what I mock are bad ideas, rather than people.

Francis Roy
6 years ago

Kirbywarp said:

The inappropriateness of shaming women for being fat is not predicated on men’s attraction to women.

And the notion of shaming men for not being prosperous is not predicated on women’s attraction to men. Can we both admit that physical attractiveness and prosperity are both traits that have an effect on sexual attraction?

I’ve been addressing such things for a while. Note the date on this image.
comment image

In fact, countering stereotypical notions of “attractiveness” is what things like Big is Beautiful are all about! So your analogy fails immediately.

I’m merely countering the stereotypical notion of “attractiveness” that is based on prosperity. Were I to create a series of posters to promote “Broke is Beautiful!” would straight women flock to poor men? Would it do anything for the destitute man’s self-esteem? Do you honestly believe that a media campaign can change someone’s sexual or aesthetic preferences?

What fails is the approach that this sub-section of society is taking. The notion that society’s mores are purely a social construct is just as silly as pure biological determinism.

2aimai
2aimai
6 years ago

First of all: aesthetic and personal sexual preferences change all the time. Which you would know if you had spent ten seconds studying the topic from an anthropological or historical point of view. Fat women have traditionally been seen as extremely sexually desirable as partners–the current vogue for supermodel types is extremely unusual and ahistorical.

But, in any event, fat acceptance/health at any size isn’t really about changing any particular individual person’s aesthetic preferences. Its about enabling people to feel good (male or female) about their own bodies. So in that sense the only thing it has to do with unemployment or poverty is that it is a form of group consciousness raising that is intended to help many people who temporarily or permanently share a characteristic work together to resolve issues relating to their own lives. You could see it as a kind of union crossed with support group.

Finally: its not your job to police the world or explain to other people (male or female) that they should accept shaming or second class status. No one has to listen to you and no one should because your viewpoint is so meanspirited, vicious and uninteresting. You have nothing to say on the topic in a literal sense because your work is vapid and tedious, and you have nothing to say on the topic because you don’t have standing to address other people’s lives and interests.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

At this point I think ANY evidence of anti-fat-shaming women mocking low income men would be appreciated, Francis. Because I have no clue how people get the idea, apart from absorbing too much pop culture, that women are as fussy about their partner’s income as certain men are about the body weight of total strangers.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

Francis,
What do you mean by large women not wanting to date men who aren’t prosperous enough? Because anti feminists are constantly making the claim that women care about money more than anything and that’s not reflective of anyone I’ve known at any point in my life. If all the women you know only value money and all the men you know only value physical appearance, maybe you’re just hanging around terrible people. Like MRAs. However, you haven’t defined prosperity so for all I know you’re talking about women who don’t find it attractive when a man is too irresponsible to hold down a job and prefers to live off the money and unpaid labor of the women in his life. You know, like Paul Elam. You could also be talking about conservative, traditionalist women who want to be homemakers. Those sorts of women want a prosperous man because they believe that it’s a man’s duty to provide financially. You guys are very inconsistent and hypocritical. You claim to like traditionalist women and think feminism is bad, you resent the trappings of traditionalism such as men being expected to be providers.

As for statistics, sure provide them. Provide a good study. Why not? I’m not denying that many men show a preference for conventionally attractive women and many women show a preference for men with a money or status. That’s what our culture socializes us to do. What I’m denying is that women who believe that appearance should be less emphasized in our culture are the ones who are materialistic and money obsessed.

If you think our culture should place less value on money, just say that. I’m not sure why that requires taking issue with fat acceptance.

BTW, that last meme you posted is also terrible. I have very large breasts. I don’t have them at you, it’s just my genes. I have cleavage in practically every shirt. That doesn’t mean it’s absurd to be expected to be treated like a human being. When it’s hot and humid outside I’d rather go outside in a tank top than my puffy winter coat. That doesn’t mean I’m asking for sexual harassment. Although maybe I’m missing something because I have no idea what’s going on with the check above the cleavage picture.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

@WWTH
MRAs believe that women objectify men by seeing them as cash cows and not people. I think Francis is trying to draw a parallel, while throwing in a “if you don’t want me to stare why are you wearing that?” hint as well.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

2aimai,
Every representation of fertility I’ve seen in old art involves a woman who is either fat or medium sized and curvy. It’s always hilarious to hear men argue that preference for thinness is some sort of biotruth.

2aimai
2aimai
6 years ago

The assertion that women will only find wealthy and employed men attractive flies in the face of the other MRA assertion that women routinely date unemployed, stoner, jerks in despite of “nice guys ™” who have steady jobs. At any rate the entire argument, such as it is, is ridiculous: both women and men find lots of different kinds of people attractive, at different times in their lives. That should be obvious: you can open your window and look out and see that for every crooked foot there is a crooked shoe and for every pot a top (as the Brazilians say). People are meeting, falling in love, and having sex–lots of them. Lots of ugly people, unemployed people, fat people, skinny people–all kinds of people find each other and strive to be happy and generous to the people in their lives. That must be double plus upsetting for people who have to tellthemselves an evo psych just so- horror story every night just to get over the angst of falling asleep alone.

sparky
sparky
6 years ago

Ooh, look the creator of the inexplicable memes has arrived to explain them!

Francis, you do understand that if people are looking at your meme and going “huh?”, that means your meme has failed, right?

dhag85
6 years ago

@Francis

Uh, yeah. Your message is loud and clear: “Some men are poor therefore fat women are ugly. MISANDRY” It’s just that your message doesn’t make any fucking sense.