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Pickup guru Roosh V: Women who cut their hair short are committing self-harm — and should be “monitored by authorities”

Check out the fertility on these gals!
Check out the fertility on these gals!

The war of short-haired women against dudes and their pants feelings continues. Indeed, it’s gotten so bad that pickup artist/rape legalization proponent Roosh V is calling for state intervention.

In a blog post today, Mr. V cites a passage in an Evo Psych textbook suggesting that men tend to prefer long hair on women because healthy hair is an indication of good health and diet, and therefore of “higher reproductive value” in women.

And if cutting off this hair is displeasing to the boners of dudes like Roosh, well, it must mean that women who wear their hair short are, quite literally, mentally ill. No, really; that’s what he thinks. (Emphasis mine.) 

If a woman cuts her hair to a short length, or shaves it outright in a Skrillex haircut, we can now confidently say that she is making herself appear less fertile, less beautiful, and less healthy. A woman cutting off healthy hair is one step away from literal cutting of her skin with a sharp object, because both behaviors denote a likely mental illness where the woman presents herself to society as more damaged than her genetic condition would indicate, suggesting that she has suffered environmental damage that has reduced her overall fitness.

Or maybe she prefers short hair because it’s easier to manage? Or because she thinks short hair looks cute? Nah, couldn’t be. She’s clearly a danger , not only to Roosh’s boner but to herself!

She must be monitored by state authorities so she doesn’t continue to hurt herself.

Roosh posts pictures of women he thinks have committed “self-harm” by cutting their hair short, thus transforming themselves from sexy ladies to hideous short-haired monsters.

Look at those hideous monsters on the right!
My eyes!!

Really? I’m pretty sure that all this proves is that Roosh has such a hard-on for long hair that he’s unable to see straight. To my eyes, and I suspect a lot of others, these two women — actresses Ginnifer Goodwin and Keira Knightly — look fine with long hair, and fine with short hair. (I actually prefer their short-haired looks, but, you know what? It’s really none of my business.)

But Roosh not only sees short-haired women as an affront to his manhood; he also sees them as a threat to Western Civilization itself.

What should we think when deluded women are actively encouraged by society to harm themselves by cutting their hair instead of growing it out and looking beautiful? One that doesn’t care about the fertility of its women and, in turn, the needs of men who want to mate with fertile women. Unless there is something within a society that promotes beauty in the form of long hair, we have little choice but to conclude that it is sick, grotesque, and sterile.

Roosh goes on to argue that art should reject such cultural sickness and celebrate the fertility of young women.

Oh, wait, that was Hitler.

Setting aside Roosh’s creepy, quasi-fascist obsession with female fertility, I do have a couple of questions for Roosh and the Evo Psych crowd in general:

What about infertile women with long hair? There are lots of women, cis and trans, who can’t do that whole pregnancy thing; many of them have long hair. Would Roosh lock them up for false advertising? (Actually, never mind; I’m sure he would, though probably not without hitting on them first.)

And what about short-haired men? Like Roosh and his pals, many evolutionary psychologists find it difficult to think beyond conventional gender stereotypes. All the studies listed in the Evo Psych textbook Roosh sites revolve around women and their hair, never men and their hair, even though the same reproductive logic would apply to them as well. Poor diet can reduce sperm count and cause infertility.

So why isn’t long hair on men “preferred across cultures” the way that long hair on women tends to be? Why isn’t Roosh calling for short-haired men (like himself) to be confined to the psych ward?

Could it be — possibly, maybe, sort of? — that there’s more to love and lust than what’s in our genes, or in Roosh’s jeans?

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Inez Milholland
Inez Milholland
5 years ago

Fun story (well, IMO): so my dad did and said little things when I was growing up that made me realize that my dad is a feminist. Or that he, at least, empathized with feminism. One of those things happened when he drove me to a hair appointment as a kid.

We were sitting in the salon lobby, waiting for the stylist to call me, and I and another girl were perusing through hair magazines. She was slightly younger than me and she was with her mom. As we looked through the magazines, she spotted a bob cut that she really liked, so she asked her mom if she could cut her hair that short. The mom was aghast, and she said, in that sarcastic mom-kind of way, “Sure, let’s cut your hair that short! Your father will be thrilled! Just you wait when I tell him you want hair like a boy!” The stylist called them and my dad and I were left alone. He turns and says to me, “Why should the dad care? It’s not his hair. Stupid.”

I felt so proud of my dad that day. Though I only got a trim, not a bob.

skiriki
5 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

Once an evo psych dude I was talking to was arguing that current Western standards of beauty are what men naturally prefer. So of course, I brought up various artwork across culture and time that depicted several different kinds of female shapes. He actually tried to argue that old statues and paintings don’t count because mass media knows how to show what men want to see but pre-mass media artists did not.

Facepalm. If all men’s boners were genitically programmed to only be pleased by super thin white women with long hair, why would so many artists have had a different aesthetic in the first place. How was any of that boner killing art well regarded enough to get preserved for centuries if their cultures didn’t find them beautiful?

I’m SO SAD that I do not have this one convo logged, as I was chilling in a chat place with a bunch of arty types, and then-regular chat pest logged in and started to dispense his infinite wisdom.

When he asked for some art references he could study (because he also basically insisted that art did not exist before 20th century — ???? WTF ????), we listed some of the Old White Dude Classics, such as Rubens.

He went “ew”. No fat chicks. THE ONLY POINT OF ART IS TO PLEASE HIS BONER.

He literally said that. I so wish I had those logs. Y’all should see it. But wait! That’s not all!

ANYTHING THAT DOESN’T GIVE HIM A BONER IS NOT ART.

Dude what.

No, seriously, what.

(It probably won’t surprise anyone that later he got into a fight with an op and got permabanned?)

zarathustratheserpent
5 years ago

Just to stick it Roosh, Spartan women wore their hair short, wore short skirts, spread their legs out, and slept with multiple men. They must have all been mentally ill.

eagoodlife
5 years ago

Reblogged this on The Life Of Von and commented:
Happy Saturday!

jodiethalegend
5 years ago

I had my hair cut short and I swear it did absolutely nothing to my uterus.

But if I had a dollar for every man who thought he had a right to give me his opinion of my short hair, it would have paid for the cut AND the colour.

bluecatbabe
bluecatbabe
5 years ago

I still have waist length hair. Since my chemo, it’s in a box in the spare room. I plan to make a plait or some kind of thing with it one day.

Tracy
Tracy
5 years ago

Neuroscientist Shaves Her Head to Better Illustrate How the Brain Works

I hope she’s being monitored bc she’s obvs going to do great harm to herself and society otherwise.

Tracy
Tracy
5 years ago

@bluecatbabe hope the chemo is going/went well! I came across Victorian hair jewellery about a week ago (can’t remember why or how) but… maybe some interesting ideas here at the Hairwork Society?

misseb47
5 years ago

odaran-“And it is so common that these men like to brag how rational or logical they are.”

I know! It’s funny how they think that they are being rational or logical while they are being extremely irrational or illogical. It’s quite hilarious how this guys lack any self awareness at all, that they get themselves completely backwards. I see it often of youtube or on the comment section of many articles. Whenever I see a username running along the lines of logical, rational, realist, impartial, etc I know they are going to be the exact opposite.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Women can’t be neuroscientists. It’s probably just one of her delusions. Silly little thing!

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Skirikki,
That’s hilarious. So, to take the most famous and obvious example, Monet isn’t art because water lilies aren’t sexy to him (one assumes)? That takes solipsism to a level I didn’t even know existed. That would make amateur internet porn more art than a Frida Kahlo self portrait, or one of Matisse’s Jazz series. My mind is truly boggled.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

When he asked for some art references he could study (because he also basically insisted that art did not exist before 20th century — ???? WTF ????), we listed some of the Old White Dude Classics, such as Rubens.

He went “ew”. No fat chicks. THE ONLY POINT OF ART IS TO PLEASE HIS BONER.

He literally said that. I so wish I had those logs. Y’all should see it. But wait! That’s not all!

ANYTHING THAT DOESN’T GIVE HIM A BONER IS NOT ART.

So…if scat porn, say, pleases his boner, is THAT art?

These guys. It’s like their boner is the axis around which the whole damn world revolves. Except that in reality, no one cares.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

@Bina
Exactly. And what’s most annoying is that they then whine when people around them display their lack of caring.

skiriki
5 years ago

@weirwoodtreehugger

That’s hilarious. So, to take the most famous and obvious example, Monet isn’t art because water lilies aren’t sexy to him (one assumes)? That takes solipsism to a level I didn’t even know existed. That would make amateur internet porn more art than a Frida Kahlo self portrait, or one of Matisse’s Jazz series. My mind is truly boggled.

@Bina

So…if scat porn, say, pleases his boner, is THAT art?

These guys. It’s like their boner is the axis around which the whole damn world revolves. Except that in reality, no one cares.

I KNOOOOOWWWWW. It didn’t make any sense! And we told him. Repeatedly.

I mean, there we were, a chatroomful of mostly digital artists (good half of them women, too, with years of experience under their belt), with some who have background in more traditional forms of visual arts, and this guy… this guy.

It was such dark comedy that I regret I don’t have a chat log, although to my defense it wasn’t an IRC-based chat and had their own wonky client that didn’t want to log it, no matter how I tried and screencapping it all was not gonna happen at that rate of convo (like 15+ people trying to puzzle out WTF is up with this guy who showed up couple of days ago and stuck around like a bad fart).

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about things like this after reading a great book by Julia Serano “Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity “, (particularly Part 2, where she describe the changes in behaviour by others towards her as she transitioned).

Julia is, like myself, MtF transgendered and the book is largely aimed towards that, but I’d still recommend it for cis-women (cis just being a shorthand term for those whose born gender matches their mental gender) as many of her observations are very pertinent for every female.

A part of Julia’s observations and analysis is that (and I agree totally) there are a heck of a lot of males who define their ‘maleness’ as just ‘anti-femaleness’ (or ‘femininity’), that is that being a male is just being the opposite of (an almost always imaginary) ‘femaleness’, rather than a more positive definition of ‘maleness’ that is something to aspire to (say like my grandfather). I think this is a fairly large sub-group of these ‘red pillers’, alongside the ‘true misogynists’, the sociopaths, the emotionally stunted/damaged, arrested development, etc sub-groups.

Note that term ‘imaginary’, because women in reality exhibit a vast range of behaviours and public presentations (duh), but these males usually (always?) have a ‘cartoon’ like idea of what ‘femaleness’ really is. This is accentuated by the groups they socialise with, which tend to have the same mindset and then they egg themselves on, or live in fear of being ‘found out’ by the group that they are not quite as ‘anti-female’ as they pretend.

And they get confused, threatened and angry when (a) other males transgress this and show what they think of as ‘femaleness’ (b) females transgress this and show ‘maleness’.

This hair nonsense is a classic example of that.

So they spend their lives ‘policing’ other males to keep them ‘male’ (with the very worst offender being MtF transgendered) and also ‘policing’ females to conform to their imaginary idea of what femaleness is. “Policing’ meaning bullying, putting down, beating up, raping or even murdering.

Because those who transgress this attack their very being, their whole construction of themselves. If females appear more ‘male’ (in their minds) then their definition of their own identity as ‘anti-female’ collapses.

Hence they always have a collection of concepts all at once: a generalised misogyny, anti-gay, anti-feminist, anti-TG, anti ‘perceived female traits or looks’ males (even if they are straight), children that don’t conform to their beliefs and so on.

You can’t reason with these people because it is embedded in their very definition of themselves (and their attitude reinforcing groups). Because their definition of being a ‘male’ is just as being ‘anti-imaginary female’ then they tend to be very shallow and brittle, as well as pretty awful people overall as (usually) things like empathy, caring, gentleness, self control, politeness, niceness, loyalty, cooperation, heck even basic manners, etc are seen as ‘female’, so they go the opposite direction becoming ‘thuggish’ or ‘loutish’ in behaviour.

This explains all sorts of bizarre behaviour. Take the all too common shouting out at women in public, even those doing it know they have zero chance of a woman turning around and then grabbing them off to bed. They are actually doing it to (a) broadcast to other males that they are ‘real men’ (b) ‘police’ women. “See I am a real man because I am offensive and boorish and I am also disturbing women to keep them in the place I want them to be in”.

At a more extreme level, we all note how far too many of them are borderline paedophiles, this is because they probably think children are (or can be forced to be) closest to their ‘cartoon ideas’.

If they were not so offensive and physically dangerous (to TGs, females, gays, perceived ‘feminine’ males, children, etc, etc) you could almost feel sorry for them, they are pretty screwed up people, they have no real self identity except as expressed in negative terms, they have no inner positive drive at all.

The reality is that it is they that are actually the shallow ‘cardboard cut outs’ of human beings, not the women they endlessly accuse of this.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

MtF transgendered are often a great resource for both males and females to help them understand each other (trust me, I can spot a ‘dud’ male in a pub at 50 meters, lol).

The reason is that when you are MtF transgendered you spend a lot of your life ‘passing’ as a male to fit in.. This requires very careful observation of other cis-males to be able copy and act like them. Then, because we have usually missed out on ‘natural’ socialisation during childhood and adolescence. we also have to observe cis-females closely to learn how to publicly present as being female (though our feelings are as females, presentation to fit in requires practice and work).

So by necessity, we have to be acute observers of behaviours that cis people learn by ‘osmosis’ when growing up.

We are also nearly 100% feminists, this is because when we transition and lose ‘male privilege’ we really notice it. A lot of cis-females actually underestimate just how bad it really is, because this is what they have always been used to and they are sort of habituated to it.

In a lighter note I’ve found a great way to get rid of unwanted attention, though difficult to do if you are not transgendered unfortunately.

Three of us (one part time, two of us transitioning) sitting at a table in a bar and talking away and a guy came up and introduced himself. We said hello politely but explained that we were having a private girl talk session, he didn’t take the hint and hung around.

Unfortunately for him were were talking about genital reassignment surgery and were comparing and talking about all (and I mean all) the gory details in nitpicking detail…he turned a bit white and left quickly…lol.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@Tracy

Hair jewelry? You must have stumbled on some memento mori. That particular type of memento mori was made from the hair of a recently departed loved one and worn mostly by widows.

gilshalos
5 years ago

@Lisa You probably pass as a better woman than I (as cis) do. I never picked up how to be female through osmosis, mainly cos I was never interested in the things females are supposed to be interested in.
So I never really tried.
Of course, not trying is in itself probably cis privilege.
But I never wear makeup (except for fancy dress), hardly ever wear skirts or dresses, am not interested in discussions of such, have 2 pairs of shoes cos..why is this a thing ? They keep your feet off the ground and are comfortable.
OK, this seems to have gone off topic just..I never fit in with women, and though it led to me having no friends until Uni, I never tried.
Also, I hope I never used any offensive language, I intended no offense.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

I wonder if these guys who define male as “not-female” or “opposite-of-female” or worse, “anti-female”, have any clue that up to the eighth week of embryonic development, all human embryos are anatomically female. (The eighth week of gestation is when an embryo becomes a fetus…and sex differentiation begins to take place.)

Meaning, all these guys…were once, at least for eight weeks, biologically GIRLS. The very group they hate and despise, even though they also want to have sex with them.

I can just hear the screaming and shrieking and rage-wanking already.

donnadiva
5 years ago

Evo psych has no credibility because it’s based on the flimsiest of evidence but worse than that it has no ethical standards that I’ve ever been able to discern. I have yet to see one of the “respected” researchers in the field come out and denounce how it is constantly used to justify sexism and even violence against women. And not just on the MRA sites by any stretch. Mainstream publications regularly put out articles dispensing advice to individuals based on half-baked theories of how our cave-dwelling ancestors lived and that advice always just so happens to prop up male entitlement while intensifying female insecurity and the expectation to cater to men.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

gilshalos: What you (and so many cis-women) do is such a great comfort and support to us that are MtF transgendered. Seeing women who are confident in expressing themselves in the ways that they want, really helps my (and I’m sure many others) confidence a lot (and I need the help…lol).

Basically I am a jeans and top/t-shirt girl and I am more comfortable in that than anything else. It was seeing (being such a watcher) other women being totally comfortable doing that that gave me the confidence to dress and present in the ways that I feel comfortable with, without feeling ‘strightjacketed’ into just one (or a few) ways of expressing myself, to ‘fit in’.

Not only is it great that women have the confidence to do it their way, but it so helps people like me knowing that I can be (finally) myself as a female, but I can express that in just about any way I want and I can achieve anything I am capable of. I can be myself with my own ‘life script’, I don’t have to follow anyone else’s.

Funnily enough I felt more pressure to conform to a narrow range of behaviours and expressions as a male, than I do now as a female.

A lot of males really police each other for aberrant behaviour (and looks, expression, etc) and are very quick to condemn other males if they step outside of pretty narrow boundaries. It is bad enough in socal life (where at times it can escalate to violence), but a heck of a lot of corporate/work culture is even worse (march of the clones basically).

Even little things like being too expressive with your hands can raise eyebrows (in Anglo Saxon cultures). I know one TG woman who still tends to sit on her hands, because that is what she did as a male to not overdo things and to make sure she ‘fitted in’.

I have the strong suspicion that a heck of a lot of cis and stright males are actually ‘acting’ as ‘acceptable males’ as well, that if they thought it was ‘allowable’ they would be quite different. Bascially they are crippling themselves to conform.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@Lisa

Wow. I mean, hand gestures, really? That’s just…weird. I’ve never noticed people “over-gesturing” with their hands, although people have noticed I use hand gestures a lot. Pfft. I always figured hand gesturing is just showing how much you’re into the conversation and stuff. I think all the people I’ve ever noticed hand gesturing were the really fun peeps who told jokes and messed around and shit, who were mostly guys (admittedly one’s gay and another is bi but there’re plenty of straight dudes too). Maybe it’s a regional thing or country differences or something? Or maybe they don’t give a shit?

dhag85
5 years ago

@Lisa

Thanks for your comments. I have a response I want to post but I’m in bed and on my phone, so I’ll try to remember to do it in the morning. 🙂

Elliot Rodger Was A Terrorist
Elliot Rodger Was A Terrorist
5 years ago

Roosh is 35. That makes him old enough to run for president (although I’m not sure if he’s a natural-born citizen or not). If he were to run in the already-crowded Republican primary, it’d certainly be interesting to watch. If he somehow made it onto the debate stage, it’d be interesting to see how (and if) the mainstream Republicans end up distancing themselves from him.

Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
Banana Jackie Cake, the Best Jackie and Cake! Yum! (^v^)
5 years ago

@Elliot

HA! HAHAHAHA! Now THAT’S a fantasy. Roosh running for any sort of office. Pfft. He finds it work just wiping his ass.

He wouldn’t even be on the Republicans radar.

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

It’s easy to identify evo psyche as not a science because it’s not falsifiable. One can use evo psyche principles to come up with testable hypotheses, but if a hypothesis is tested and found to be false, evo psyche “researchers” can (and always do) explain the negative findings without any alteration to their basic assumptions.

Everything Roosh and other evo psychers spout is unverifiable, because even those hypotheses that are testable can’t falsify the basic assumptions. The original explanation for gender roles, that women are naturally monogamous and men are naturally polygamous because: differing reproductive strategies, turned out to be nonsense when research found that men and women cheat on their partners at identical rates. This didn’t make any evo psychers reassess their basic assumption that gender roles are somehow natural. It just made them start looking for a new explanation to account for their assumption.

That’s not how science works. That’s the opposite of how science works. That’s more like a secular religion.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

donnadiva: “… half-baked theories of how our cave-dwelling ancestors lived …”. So true.

If you read the actual data what it really tells you is that our hunter/gatherer ancestors showed an incredible diversity in social grouping types.

For far too long this raw data was shoehorned into our current narrow definitions of how we do things today, only in very recent times has a more rational and scientific examination of it occurred.

This applies just as much to more recent history. Just take a single example, taking a European centric view of war.

The history of Europe (and the UK) has been of endless war (and brutality and extermination) with each other and non-Europeans. There has never been a period where Europeans have not been at war with each other or in one place or another (I think one study showed that the UK had only been NOT been at war with only about a dozen nations in the whole world). But we extrapolate that to other areas and cultures, many of which were (and are) far less warlike.

Similarly our current narrow gender/sexual roles came mostly from just one place, the Middle East, with its largely tribal social customs spread by Judaism and (most of all) by its much larger offshoot Catholicism, with Islam (many years later) borrowing large chucks from both of them and also spreading ME social rulings elsewhere.

Large areas of Europe and the rest of the world had far more gender/sexual diversity prior to Christianity arriving. The British Empire then later spread these rules all over the place , forcing their laws on their colonies and conquests (India, Malaysia, US, Australia, Canada and so on). For example, the Indian (etc) anti-homosexuality laws were introduced by the British, they didn’t exist beforehand, ditto so many other places.

British property laws were forced on on its colonies/conquests, which at that time meant no woman could own anything, only males could, no matter what the local laws and customs originally were and if you didn’t like it a whole bunch of soldiers would turn up to ‘persuade’ you rather forcibly (to the point of extinction if required). As I always say you don’t get to conquer a third of the world (with good goes at many other places like Russia and China) by being ‘nice’.

You could make a strong argument that the two authorities most responsible for anti-female and anti-GLBTI prejudices and laws in the whole world were the Catholic Church (and later the break away Protestant ones, some of whom are worse) and the British Empire.

Does this matter? IMHO it does, because I think it important to work out ‘why’ things happened and are the way they are, to then better understand how to change it. For example, there is simply no point in trying to change the Catholic Church on its gender/sexuality views, they have been that way for nearly 2,000 years now. What you can do is block, isolate and politically out manoeuvre them.

One thing I am realising as I study this stuff more is that Feminism and GLBTI activism are by necessity intertwined, because our enemies are after us both. Those ‘religious rights’ legislations being introduced in parts of the US are aimed just as much at women as GLBTI people. Using them to take away reproductive rights to women is a first priority for them. So in this case (as in so many others) we have work very closely together, as they will try to ‘divide and conquer’ if they can.

Hard to imagine that people in 21st century US are still trying to impose BC Middle Eastern tribal social norms on others. But far too many do and dream about women being slaves, barefoot and pregnant again and that GLBTI people are totally exterminated.

The MRA ‘movement’ (always makes me think of bowels when I write that) is just another expression of that, just another symptom (in essence) of a larger malaise. (Yes there are deliberate puns in that sentence).

Donna Gratehouse (@DonnaDiva)

It’s interesting how the evo psych sexists want it both ways: Gender roles and stereotypes they like are purely the result of evolutionary selection with no cultural input. But when there is deviation from them that troubles the evo psychers, such as women cutting their hair short, all of a sudden society is culpable and should crack down on these rebels to force them into the “proper” behavior (that they are biologically wired for).

Policy of Madness
Policy of Madness
5 years ago

One thing I am realising as I study this stuff more is that Feminism and GLBTI activism are by necessity intertwined, because our enemies are after us both.

Unfortunately, a nontrivial number of persons on both sides of that equation don’t take that view. Historically, feminism has been pretty exclusive against women who are not white, straight, cis, and middle-class, while other equality movements that are not primarily for women’s equality have frequently made sexism a part of their dogma.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ Lisa

(I think one study showed that the UK had only been NOT been at war with only about a dozen nations in the whole world).

Hey, We’re not that bad; it’s nearly *two* dozen.

Here’s the list. Amazingly, it’s not apocryphal.

Andorra
Belarus
Bolivia
Burundi
Central African Republic
Chad
Congo, Republic of
Guatemala
Ivory Coast
Kyrgyzstan
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Mali
Marshall Islands
Monaco
Mongolia
Paraguay
Sao Tome and Principe
Sweden
Tajikistan
Uzbekistan
Vatican City

Maybe we should do Monaco next. Probably cheaper to invade than actually pay for a holiday there.

Donna Gratehouse (@DonnaDiva)

@Lisa “One thing I am realising as I study this stuff more is that Feminism and GLBTI activism are by necessity intertwined, because our enemies are after us both. Those ‘religious rights’ legislations being introduced in parts of the US are aimed just as much at women as GLBTI people. Using them to take away reproductive rights to women is a first priority for them. So in this case (as in so many others) we have work very closely together, as they will try to ‘divide and conquer’ if they can.”

I enjoyed your whole comment but I want to single this part out. So much this. Gay rights victories cannot come at the cost of women losing reproductive rights yet I’m seeing progressives act like you can have cafeteria style human rights where we get, say, legalized same sex marriage but we have to throw the social conservatives an anti-choice bone to appease them. It doesn’t work that way. Those compromises brutalize real people who can’t fight back and all they do is embolden the sex fascists to push for more. You are so right that they need to be resisted, not accommodated in any way and, no, they don’t need us to reeducate them. They are perfectly capable of changing their own minds and most simply refuse to.

AllisonW
AllisonW
5 years ago

On the feminism + GLBTI activism stuff, it deeply disappoints me that so many wealthy white gay men end up going extreme right-wing because they don’t care about anything at all save their penis and their bank account. Peter Thiel comes to mind. The same social-conservative enemies are after us both, but many–especially the most relatively privileged and also shallow in this game–operate entirely on a “we don’t have to outrun the bear, we just have to outrun you” strategy.

Also, Lisa: as a trans woman, I fucking *wish* nearly 100% of trans women were feminists. There are far too many for my comfort with 20th-century ideas of gender roles, or who still haven’t gotten over the male privilege they grew up with. There were a shitload of trans women opposing Gamergate last year, for instance, but enough sided with GG to drive me bugfuck. I’m *hoping* they’re just pre-everything and will either learn the error of their ways once they actually transition *or* that they’ll give up and stop calling themselves “trans women” while they spout their antifeminist horseshit, but I know it isn’t always so. There are even trans women in the neoreactionary movement, of all things. There are not words to describe my loathing of them.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

Donna Gratehouse (@DonnaDiva): Agree totally, I see it as two sides of a coin, some differences on the back and front, but still joined together forever in the one and the same coin.

I see this a symptom of fragmentation between all the activist groups, and a warning that we all have to work more closely together. Our common interests are far greater than any differences, despite what some think.

They may be evil those anti-women, anti-GLBTI groups, but they are not stupid. They are perfectly aware of what these ‘religious rights’ laws are intended to do. If they can hammer all of us as the same time, all the better they think.

As for how you fight that politically that is a matter of strategy and tactics. If you can kill these laws by using transgendred people as a poltical rational then great, the important thing is that they are killed so we all benefit. Though personally I am in much more in favour of a coordinated campaign between all the dfferent groups that are affected, as I dislike an ‘all the eggs in the one basket’ approach as being much too risky and more easily countered.

And I also agree totally that there can be no compromises, no throwing them a bone or another group under a bus whatsoever. People can’t cherry pick and say ‘that group’ has a right to choose things affecting their bodies, while ‘that other group’ doesn’t have that right.

Take a simple example that some don’t seem to get (on many sides) is that a cis-woman’s right to contraception (etc) is exacty the same as my right to HRT. It is about all of us choosing what is the right treatment for ourselves as individuals and no one else should have any say in it. Therefore we both have a very strong common interest in fighting against anything or anyone that tries to restrict either of our accesses.

Our common enemies are also aware of this and will try to apply it the opposite way. If they can set a precendent denying one group something, then they will try to extend it to other groups and they will lie endlessly and twist the truth into a pretzel to do it.

Another ‘mental example’, if they managed to ban oral contraception of the basis of ‘health risks’, how long would I continue to get HRT (using pretty similar hormones) for? Yep, not long at all, about 5 minutes longer I’d guess. if that is not a common interest then I don’t know what is. So I have a very strong ‘vested interest’ in womens open and free access to hormone based contraception (and other types of course), over and above a very strong wish for common humanity and common human rights.

United we are strong, divided they will kick the crap out of us.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

AkkisonW: “…the error of their ways once they actually transition….”. They will, or at a least a vast majority will, like all humans some will follow all sorts of beliefs. I personally don’t know any TGs (part time, transitoning or transitioned) that are not feminists to one degree or another. And it is not about fitting in or not as the case may be with gender expression and behaviour norms (some do, some don’t), it is just a clear awareness of rights and daily treatment.

I have no doubt some don’t start out that way, they soon change their minds when reality mugs them.

Yes, sadly there is always a sub-group within an oppressed minority that ‘have made it’ and then work hard to pull the ladder up after them, forgetting all the hard work, blood, sweat and tears done by so many others to get them there. A tragic part of humanity that repeats itself over and over again (yes within the TG community as well).

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

Alan Robertshaw: Didn’t realise there was so many, something to aim for in the future then, that will justify the defence budgets….lol.

I’d go for Liechtenstein, all that money there to grab, sorry appropriate, um I mean put into safe keeping, um to save it from terrorists, or something…….. Like what happened with Iraq’s money and the Ukraine’s gold, (whatever happened to Libya’s gold?), all put in a ‘safe places’.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

AllisonW: “There are even trans women in the neoreactionary movement, of all things. There are not words to describe my loathing of them.”.

Trust me I loath them even more than you do, they are total traitors to my group and harm me and my friends. Not many fortunately, but enough to drive me nearly insane.

And never, ever get me started on the damage Dr. Anne Lawrence, herself a MtF transsexual, has done to the entire transgendered community worldwide and all the lives she has helped to destroy. The word ‘loathing’ is far,far too mild for what I feel about her.

Every group has it’s equivalents of what we used to call in the working class as ‘class traitors’. Summed up beautifully by an age old song, to the tune of the Red Flag:

“The working class can kiss my arse,
I’ve got the gaffer’s job at last.”.

Gaffer being boss.

‘I’ve made it …FU’ is a shorter version of that.

GrumpyOldMangina
5 years ago

@Lisa: I’ve always had some serious mismatches with the male gender role, going back to my mid-teens when I realized that I was a pacifist when most of the guys I grew up with were just marking time until they got out of high school so they could join the military — there was a neat little war going on in Vietnam and many of the guys wanted a piece of it.
I am a fairly big guy (6’3″ and 250 lbs. or so) and I am only attracted to women, so it’s been very easy for me to “pass” as a man. But I wanted to add my comments about how adolescent male peer-group policing reinforces toxic masculinity. Any guy who shows any “feminine” behavior will have it pried out and ridiculed mercilessly. Also bad behavior toward girls is encouraged and good behavior ridiculed as sissified. The classic insult for a man who likes to please women is “pussy-whipped.”
This is one of the major means by which toxic masculinity is nurtured and passed on, but it it is really difficult to counteract. I did my best to prepare both my sons and daughters to resist peer pressure, and it worked out pretty well — though I’ll never know whether I did something good or that was just the way they were. (Maybe resistance to peer pressure can be inherited?)
In any case I don’t think you can overemphasize the role of peer pressure and gender role enforcement and misogynistic attitudes. When I look at groups like MRAs and MGTOWs I see echo chambers that work to reinforce “women are evil” dogma.

Lisa
Lisa
5 years ago

Donna Gratehouse (@DonnaDiva): ” But when there is deviation from them that troubles the evo psychers, such as women cutting their hair short, all of a sudden society is culpable and should crack down on these rebels to force them into the “proper” behavior (that they are biologically wired for).”.

Yep, the only ‘logic’ I expect from them is ether circular or a logical fallacy. Boil it all down and what you get is “just do what I want, no matter how stupid, sexist, prejudicial or illogical it is, if you don’t you are a bad woman just because………………”.

“Oh and change everything you do when I change my mind, just because…………..”.

Far too many evolutionary psychcs have fallen in the the trap of: “For every complex issue there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.” (paraphrase).