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In creepy Reddit megathread, thousands of women recount the first time they were perved on by a grown man

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So there’s a giant, growing, and extremely creepy megathread up on Reddit at the moment, and for once, the creepiness isn’t coming from inside the Reddit. Well, less of the creepiness is coming from Reddit than you might expect.

Yesterday, you see, a Redditor known as BA_Baracus posted a couple of simple questions to AskReddit: Women of Reddit, when did you first notice that men were looking at you in a sexual way? How old were you and how did it make you feel?

This wasn’t the first time he’d posted a question to his fellow Redditors; he’s posted a bunch, including “People of reddit with eyes that point in different directions, which one of them is usually looking at me?” and, er, “Recent rape victims of Reddit, how did it happen, and what the hell were you doing in India?” None of these questions got much of a response.

But this time, well, thousands of “women of Reddit” stepped forward to tell the horrifying yet in most cases completely unsurprising stories of the first time men started perving on them, in many cases before they were even teenagers.

Here’s a sampling of some of their stories. TRIGGER WARNING for extreme fucking creepiness.

Age 8, followed to a department store changing room

intoon 130 points 1 day ago  Holy shit, this thread is depressing, but (sadly,) makes me feel like I'm not alone. I was 8, had wandered away from my mom at Kmart. A creepy 40 something white guy in construction attire stared at my chest and butt, and followed me all around the store. I even went into the changing room to get away from him (stupid idea I know, but c'mon, I was 8!) he FOLLOWED ME INTO THE CHANGING ROOM. Tried to pull and shake the locked stall door open that I was hiding behind. I sat, curled into a ball on the changing seat, staring at his dirty work boots just on the other side of that door, terrified. Thank god a woman walked in to try on some clothes, saw him, and screamed at him to get out. After he had left, I ran out and found my Mom. I will never forget how frightened I was. I had no idea what he wanted with me, but the way he stared and his aggression trying to pull that changing room door open made me feel so sick and ashamed of my body and I wondered what I had done to make him come after me. I'm so crazy over protective with my kids and I'm sure some of it stems from that incident. I have to fight my anxiety anytime I take them to a park, or museum or even family gathering. They are always within my sight.

Age 8, molested by a landlord

DevilNTheDeepBlueSea 86 points 1 day ago  I was 8 when a landlord in Germany put his hands down my pants while I was feeding a rabbit he gave me. I ran away, he butchered the bunny that afternoon. I was 11 when a relative of my mother's husband (in his mid-thirties) tried to French kiss me. I told my mother & she found that "hard to believe". I was 16 and almost raped by 2 older guys (mid 20s) in a parking lot in Hawaii (daylight), until a construction worker walked up to stop it. At 17 I worked for a mobile equine vet who once called me in to his office where he was masturbating. I quite that job & caught hell from parents for being fickle. At 18 I was fired from a job for not giving head to a manager, embarrassed (AGAIN), I lied to friends/family about something stupid that I did to cause the job loss. I was 20 when a friend of my aunt offered me a ride home, he tried to rape me, that turned into a fist fight with him leaving mad & calling me crazy. At 26 a small animal veterinarian (50s) tried to corner/fondle me & 2 other assistants regularly. My husband thought women exaggerate these types of things, that it's rare. We're divorced. Should I continue? No, I did not dress provocative or act "flirty". And I don't think it matters if you're beautiful or just a girl. Or how old or experienced. It's insulting, shameful, & almost always very hurtful.

Age 12, at a bus stop

Cuddlebunz 208 points 1 day ago  I remember the first time pretty clearly. I was a mix of scared/angry/confused and I was only twelve years old. I was waiting at a bus stop alone, when a guy who was probably in his late twenties/early thirties came riding past on his bike. He slowed right down and whistled at me. When I ignored him, he turned on his bike and slowly rode right past me. I remember being pretty freaked out at how he leered at me. Twelve year old me had no idea what to do. He turned around and rode by again. Luckily a woman showed up to the same stop so I moved to stand near her. He finally rode off when he saw I wasn't by myself anymore (or maybe was bored I wasn't responding?) It was fucked up. Some men can be so disgusting.

11 or 12, walking to and from school

mermaids_singing 856 points 1 day ago  11 or 12. I remember walking to and from school (6th grade in the US) and having guys yell stuff out of cars. A couple times I had to hide out in a local coffee shop on the route home because I was getting harassed. Once because a carful of maybe late teens/early 20's dudes kept circling the block and asking me to ride with them and once because some older dude was walking the same way and kept talking about my tits and ass. I was 12 and had no idea how to deal with this so I started wearing baggy boy clothes....it lessened but didn't stop. I spent years working htrough my issues over this.

Age 12, waiting for carryout

WinstonScott 1052 points 1 day ago  When I was 12, my mom and I were at a small, carry-out only restaurant waiting for our order to be ready. This older guy, who looked like he was about 20 came in. He just stared at me, open-mouthed. I had to walk past him to fill my drink, and he said, "Hey baby. Give me some of that T & A." I didn't even know what T & A was! He even positioned himself so I would have to walk past him again when we left the restaurant, and he made another comment where he called me "Princess." Anyway, when we got in the car, I just broke down crying. I was so ashamed. My mom had had no idea that any of that had just occurred, and I told her that I didn't know what I had done wrong. I thought for sure I must have looked him at or done something to make him think that it was OK to talk and look at me like that. My mom assured me that it was nothing that I had done, and I that now that I was developing, things like that were going to happen a lot more frequently. If I had been older, the whole incident would have been fairly innocuous. But I was only 12 (and I definitely looked very young even though I had boobs and hips) so it was mildly traumatizing. What I find so disturbing now that I'm an adult, is how frequently, older, grown men would look and make sexual comments at me from the ages of 12-17. Like I said before, I looked very young, and I didn't dress provocatively. There's no way they could have mistaken me for 18+.

Age 11, creepy step-grandfather

vodka_titties 1579 points 1 day ago  I was 11. I had started to grow my boobs, and my step grandfather cornered me in my parents room one day. He stuck his tongue in my mouth and grabbed my boobs. I didn't know what to do so I pushed him away a little, said "abuelito did you want a hug?", and hugged him. Ughhh. I was scared I was going to get in trouble and that my parents would think I was making it up. They believed me, but just told me to avoid him for the rest of his stay.

Age 12, creepy step-uncle

BattleReady 2658 points 1 day ago  I was 12. I remember I was doing yard work for a step-uncle when he would constantly casually make "Huh" sounds and stand directly behind me when I would pull weeds. Suspicions were confirmed when he took me to lunch at the mall and offered to buy me tiny dresses and low cut shirts. I stopped associating with my step family after that as that's all they ever did.

Age 10, wearing a Lion King backpack and light-up shoes

lionking

Age 12, creepy cell phone salesman

Serae 3700 points 1 day ago  This...1999 or 2000? I was 12 and my mom was getting me a cell phone. This was before cell phone were as common for kids to have. I came home with my cellphone and got my first call. It was the young guy who set us up with the phone and the plan. He called to tell me that he thought I was hot and that he has my number since he set me up with my phone. I just small talked him, being overly nice as I wasn't really sure what to do. My mom noticed me on the phone and asked who I would even be calling (the phone as basically to call her and only her). I told her that the guy that sold us the phone was trying to get a date with me. She grabbed the phone and yelled into it, "She's 10 years old and you should be ashamed! If you ever call again I'll go to the police." He got off the phone quickly. I looked at my mom and said, "But...I'm 12?" "He needs to feel the additional shame of being a pig." And that was the moment I first noticed that someone was looking at me in a sexual way. My mother ended up going to the store and getting the guy fired. Apparently this wasn't the first time he'd used his job to get numbers of women to call. This time he got fired. That was also the year other things occurred, but this was the first.

Age 11, walking home from the beach

ALighterShadeOfPale 3919 points 1 day ago  Around age 11, myself and my cousin (she was also 11) were walking from the beach to the cottage (in shorts and t shirts). A car with three men began driving slowly next to us, asking for directions and for us to get in to show them where some campground was. We went into a convenience store and used their phone to call our grandmother to come get us. (Pre cellphones). The men were parked in the parking lot and followed our car to the cottage, which was set back from the road, had to go through trees and such to get to it. They parked out on the road by the entrance. My uncle (cousin's father) was told they were parked there and went out with his shot gun to ask if there was any problems. They didn't stick around. From that point on I became more aware of the yelling out car windows, the stares, the requests to get into vehicles (seriously, guys, does this ever work?)

Age 12, in Blockbuster (with bonus Reddit creepiness)

Flowsephine 4673 points 1 day ago*  I remember being in Blockbuster when I was 12 and having a man comment on my ass loud enough that multiple people turned around to glare at him. When my shocked mother informed him of my age he turned bright red and left the store. Edit: I can save a lot of you a lot of time and tell you that I HAVE NOT posted in /r/gonewild. The most you'll find in my post history is a very cute dog. Edit 2: As requested, here's the dog. 75% Australian Shepherd and 25% Heeler. I'm so glad he's been eye bleach for a lot of you, but don't forget what we are actually here to discuss.

14, eating a lollipop

glitterbugged 5006 points 1 day ago  I was 14 in a restaurant with my parents, sucking on a lollipop, when some dude approached to let me know that he wished he was the lollipop. I thought my dad might actually murder him. Age 12, eating a banana

sakana-no-ko 3577 points 1 day ago  This is sort of like what happened to my sister! We were at a fair and eating frozen chocolate covered bananas. I was 17 and she was 12. This white guy walked up to her and goes "Wow, it looks like you're eating a big black dick! Ha! You look good eating dick" and then a black guy behind him goes "Wish it was mine!" What disturbs me the most about that is I was right there, eating one too, and while I looked young, I could have been legal. She at 12 looked more like she was 10, she was so young looking and they chose to prey on her instead of an adult-looking target.

Naturally, some Redditors decided to add to the creepiness:

pretendtrainw00w00 2825 points 1 day ago*  When I was about ten years old, I developed breasts but hadn't really noticed yet. I was wearing a shirt with no bra, when a boy in my class kept passing my desk over and over again. About the fifth time, I looked up at him to see what was going on, and he was staring right down the v-neck of my top. That was the moment my entire damn life changed. Edit: For those wondering what it is like to be a woman, the creepy PMs have officially started. From a post speaking about my breasts when I was 10.

And all this makes pretty clear just why we need age of consent laws:

CheezIt624 3453 points 1 day ago*  I was 12, already gone through puberty and was pretty developed. I learned very quickly that men don't care if you're 12 as long as you LOOK like you're 17-18. This is why I argue so strongly for consent laws. I was fucking 12 with Beanie Babies and Sweet Valley High books and shit, and grown men were trying to fuck me because I was a C cup and looked older. And I liked the attention, because all any girl wants is to feel wanted and mature and adult. It's why we start fantasizing about our first cars and sneak cigarettes from our parents - we want to feel older and cool. I didn't know I could say no to these men, and I felt so much older and mature when they'd pay attention to me, and so that began a rough few years of letting men have sex with me. I phrase it that way because that's what it was - did I say yes? Yes. Did I want to? No. I was scared to say no to these older guys. It took till maybe 18 or so before I realized I didn't have to do anything I didn't want to. Edit: And I've already received my first PM saying 12 year old slutty me wanted it.

Of course, many of these creepy guys are well aware that the targets of their creepiness are a long way away from being “legal.”

I_Dont_Own_A_Cat 1151 points 1 day ago*  I was 12, already gone through puberty and was pretty developed. I learned very quickly that men don't care if you're 12 as long as you LOOK like you're 17-18. The worst part is that plenty of men who catcall well-developed young teens don't really think they look 17 or 18. They know perfectly damn well they are catcalling 11-15 year olds. They know perfectly damn well 11-15 year olds are "easier" and safer to harass, for the reasons you stated in your post. My body developed pretty young, but I remain short and babyfaced. Even in my early 20s, I occasionally would get hit on by adult men who said or did things that indicated they thought I was very young with big breasts. Asking where I went to high school, etc. Those men didn't think that I was older-looking, they specifically targeted that I was very young-looking. Two different times I've had a men flat out say state, with mild disappointment, they thought I was younger when I told them my age, once after randomly asking if I like to party and offering to buy me alcohol while I was walking down the street.

Check out the thread for countless more stories like this.

H/T — u/Iwillpixiecutyou on Reddit

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Paradoxical Intention
9 years ago

mildlymagnificent | April 13, 2015 at 5:03 pm
For those who have, and those who haven’t, looked at that reddit thread, one thing really came home to me. (Once I got past the red glaze of rage at all the stories starting with I was 8 … I was 11… I was 5 … followed by very similar details.)

The long term effects were devastating. Some of them for the length of a holiday. Some of them for 10 years or more.

I never walked on that path, went to the library, went to the pool, went to the icecream shop again. I cut my hair short. I changed my clothes to baggy concealing stuff. I stayed home for the rest of the summer. I never went out without my mum/aunt/brother. I put on weight so they wouldn’t notice me. I never wore make up again. I stopped smiling at people.

That’s the point of it all, isn’t it?

To get women to be afraid and live in constant fear, so they don’t stand up and speak out and shut this shit down.

It’s a terrorist tactic.

because reasons
because reasons
9 years ago

@midlymagnificent
I’m so sorry to hear that. But unfortunately, you’re not alone. People naturally develop coping skills/defense mechanisms to get through awful experiences and avoid them in the future. And that can be anything from avoiding places/people, gaining weight, hiding from social situations, to splintering into multiple identities. And the abusers and apologists don’t have any clue what the lasting effects are. And how it can also effect future generations (since your parenting skills can be effected too). I suppose there are folks who can just shrug off their experiences or repress them to the point of never having it interfere with their life…but I think that’s a tiny minority.

because reasons
because reasons
9 years ago

@Paradoxical Intention
Exactly. So on second thought, I guess the abusers DO know the lasting effects, as in how terrified the victim will be (and hopefully quiet about it). Just gross.

Lea
Lea
9 years ago

Thanks, because reasons. They’re pretty messed up people. I don’t have anything to do with anyone from my bio or step family but my grandmother. We are considered to be the weird ones in the family, a badge we are both proud of. “Normal” people are racist, sexist, LGBTQ-phobic and the “right” kind of Christian. I’m atheist and she believes God loves us all. My mother once told me that she’d rather I be an atheist than a liberal Christian. She’s disgusted by them and my grandmother’s church allowed female deacons and gayz. That’s even worse than being an apostate like me! So, we’re not held in high regard.
She’s an overcomer, a dynamo with a keen mind and utterly, completely fearless. I probably won’t make it to 80, but if I do I hope I’m just like her.

I won’t be as hot. My grandmother is drop dead gorgeous. But in the other ways, I’ll try to be like her.

mildlymagnificent
9 years ago

I just went back to check and found this one that really affected me despite all the others talking about incest and assault and really awful stuff.

I was 10…just turned 10. It was my cousin’s wedding and one of my aunts had braided my hair and put on a bit of makeup on me. I was walking from the reception hall to my grandma’s house (just a few blocks) to grab some film for my dad’s camera.

A car pulled along side of me and started driving slow to keep pace with me. The guy…maybe 40? 30?… started asking me questions…my name, where I was headed etc. and he kept telling me how pretty I was. I knew the whole Stranger Danger stuff, so I ignored him…and eventually I just started running and sprinted to my grandma’s house.

It made me feel weird. I felt the make up had tricked the guy into thinking I was older (looking at pictures of myself at that age, there’s no way any amount of makeup would make you think I was anything other than a gangly little school kid)…so I spent forever wiping and washing my face before I headed back to the party. I didn’t wear make up again till college.

This one made me sad.

because reasons
because reasons
9 years ago

@Lea
Grandma sounds awesome 🙂 At least there’s one member of your family that’s not a jackass.

because reasons
because reasons
9 years ago

@mildlymagnificent
Indeed very sad. I think we’ve all engaged in some self-victim-blaming. 🙁

bekabot
bekabot
9 years ago

Well, “be careful what you ask for…”

I’ve got stories too, and the reason I’m not setting any of them down here is that they’re not very interesting compared to many of the ones which have already been offered and which (I think) ought to be left to speak for themselves.

But I’m very grateful that physically I was a slow grower and a late bloomer. I always have been but this makes me even more so.

What I do find fascinating is that this is taking place in a part of the noosphere were it’s commonplace for men (who aren’t teenagers but who are 30 to 40 years old) to argue that they ought to be able to court and “marry” girls who are, exactly, around 12/13 years old. They’re not arguing on behalf of their right to mess around with 16 or 17-year-olds, who should be young enough for anybody but who already (this is my guess) look and act too much like adult women to suit these guys. Nor are they arguing on behalf of their right to pursue 14 or 15-year-olds, who are (also) already over the sill. No, they want a relationship with a kid, with a girl so young she’s only just barely begun to differentiate herself from…a boy. (Hence, IMO, the vast engrossment with the characteristics by means of which she has only just barely begun to differentiate herself. It’s different from the average adult-male engrossment, is all I’m saying.)

“Because I love her so much. Why can’t you guys accept that an older man can really/truly love a young girl? If a man can love another man and if a woman can love another woman, then why, darn it, can’t I love a 13-year-old? What’s so creepy about that? Why are you guys always so critical? What is your problem?”

That’s the question which has been asked time and again in just these purlieus and very rarely does anyone attempt to answer it, other than to nod along and to join in the chorus. “Yeah, man, that is the way it is; it’s too bad for women if they can’t handle the truth; and besides you know the reason women can’t handle the truth is that women are all in denial.”

My mother ended up going to the store and getting the guy fired. Apparently this wasn’t the first time he’d used his job to get numbers of women to call. This time he got fired.

Translate that into MRA-speak and it comes out:

“This is what we mean when we say women are out to ruin men’s lives. Who are you, just ‘cuz you’ve got some boobs and stuff, to call up a guy’s work and get him fired and ruin his life? What did he ever do to you other than try to give you a compliment? And you’re ready to lose him his job when you’re only 12 years old. Plus, you got your nasty harpy of a mother to do it for you, and plus that, the bitch lied. See what we mean when we say women are evil? This is all the proof we need.”

DL
DL
9 years ago

Usually I don’t think I’ve been a victim of much sexual harassment, but when I start to think about it, I remember all these incidents of strange men offering me rides and asking if I were by myself. And most of these happened when I was underage and it didn’t make sense until years later, which made me realize the danger I could’ve been in if they had decided to keep pushing on it. I was such a wimp until the last couple of years now.

Oh, but there has been a few times where I’ve been touched or asked to touch someone inappropriately. Those situations I repressed for several years coincidentally. The ones that happened in public were done by boys about the same age as I though, but what still pisses me off is that despite having multiple people around, even a teacher or my older brother, no one stepped in to help. I’m not much of a looker plus I’m pretty fat, so the attitude people(including my family) give me about harassment is that I should be grateful for getting “that kind of attention”. Eeuegh.

Catalpa
Catalpa
9 years ago

“Because I love her so much. Why can’t you guys accept that an older man can really/truly love a young girl?”

It’s telling, isn’t it, that these folks are only concerned about how much they love the young child, but there is no mention of any consideration they might have that the young child is not emotionally, physically, or mentally developed enough to love anyone in that fashion.

These shitgolems don’t give a single fuck about consent and emotional capability, they specifically want someone who will be vulnerable, naive, and easily maleable.

Steph
Steph
9 years ago

There were so many I kind of forget them but I would say it started at around 8-10. I can’t remember exactly. When I was 12, it was my first day of high school (In Australia we just have primary and high. Primary 1-6, Secondary/High school 7-12) and I was waiting at the bus stop. I knew that the guy living around the corner was a pedophile because he had already made a move on me and the other children when we were younger. The bus stop was unfortunately right out the front of his house and the school bus would come by there. My sister and I were standing next to each other (she was 14) and he drove past us very slowly staring at us. It made me feel sick and nervous all day.

Also another time, I was walking around the shops when I was about 10, I had this old pair of jeans and the zipper broke without me realising and came undone. I saw two older guys (roughly in their twenties) pointing and commenting to each other. I looked down and saw that they had been looking at me. It felt like they were looking at me sexually but I guess I can’t know for sure. It just made me feel embarrassed, ashamed and like I wanted to go home.

autosoma
9 years ago

Earlier in the thread I said that this is endemic, and I’ve just remembered some stuff that is “odd”. I’m a father of two young girls (6&9) and, of course, I want to ensure that they can navigate this world safely.

I’ve had four separate unconnected male (no longer) friends who have made weird statements about having daughters to me which all ended up with aggressive responses from me and the end of friendships. What more interesting is that they are all from different social economic backgrounds, different relationship statuses (one married,one divorces two single) different ages and different parts of the country, the only commonality amongst them is that they are educated to further degree level and have various levels of entitled chips on their shoulders (meaning they think they should be more entitled than they actually are).

It’s interesting because it shows from my extended network of male “friends” that I can come up with a quasi statistic that 1 in 8, feels at liberty to say such things to another man. In actuality I should have trooped them all off to the police, but then I would have had to contend with hearsay, proof and an act of slander on my part. Instead I terminated the “friendships” (I actually did hit one and he called the police on me – when I gave my explanation I got off with a warning, fair enough I committed an act of violence yet all the cops said to him was “don’t say stupid stuff like that”).

Presently, I’m listening to my two laughing and giggling in another room and when this shit happens to them I will give them all my support and help. All I can do from now on is that when I meet men who are the do-ers of this stuff, I will explain in firm, non-violent ways just what they are doing wrong.

mildlymagnificent
9 years ago

One more thing that has struck me now. (I went back to the thread again once the rage-nausea-tears subsided a bit.)

This is for all the horrified dads.

If you scan through a lot of those stories you’ll notice there are two kinds of common negative experiences, not just the obvious one of the creepy same-age-as-my-dad types. It’s the classmates and same age group boys who are pretty horrible. I’m beginning to suspect that the drive by hollering and aggressive butt pinching blokes of the college age or not-quite-old-enough-to-be-my-dad harassers started out life as grabbing, groping, teasing, bullying schoolboys (or the ones who stood by and cheered them on or dared them in the first place).

Dads of both girls and boys would do all of them a service if they were, one way or another, involved with boys. Helping out as an assistant coach of a basketball/ hockey/ baseball team or a games group or some similar local organisation. No need to preach about responsible manhood or anything, just set a good example in their own behaviour and step on any negative, bullying, offensive or obscene talk about girls and about each other Like It’s A Cockroach.

Boys teasing and daring each other to say or do those run up and grab the newly budded breasts or try to grope the crotch of girls in their class or their neighbourhood should be t.o.l.d. that this is not fun and it’s not funny. Nor any of those other try to see up skirts or make girls jump & run just to see boobs bounce – it’s bullying and it’s offensive. It’s also bullying and unfunny to shame or insult other boys who refuse to approve or do those things or who try to speak up on behalf of the girls.

Starve or poison those seeds before they sprout and there’s a better chance that some or all of those boys will be decent themselves and a moderating influence on any group they later become part of.

autosoma
9 years ago

@mildlymagnificent

Nah! the dads shouldn’t be horrified they should be aware that this happens. All they have to do is ask – wives, girlfriends, mums, sisters, grans, I’m aware just because I’ve listened to what my fellow blokes say (their versions of what been said here) and have been thoroughly disgusted.

As you’ve pointed out they can effect change by being the ones who change and think different

Tracy
Tracy
9 years ago

What @mildlymagnificent said. In grade 6, the girls knew every recess that we were in danger of having our pants pulled down in the yard. This was a trend, and they’d yank hard – hard enough to try and get the underwear to come down too. Right in the middle of the schoolyard. It was humiliating. No-one ever did anything about it. (And of course, the messages that girls got about ‘well it just means they like you’ meant tons of weird, conflicting thoughts, ie: this humiliates me but also means I am attractive and worthy so I should… like it?)

No-one at school intervened when a male classmate literally tackled me from behind, knocked me to the ground, got on top of me and held me there, sort of grinding against my butt. I was face in the dirt, in front of the school, with all the buses lined up and kids going home. No-one did anything. I didn’t know what to do. Again, this was grade 5 or 6.

No-one was telling the boys that this was not funny or ok. No-one was telling the girls that either.

I’m pretty confident that a 10-yr-old boy who thinks it’s fine to tackle girls and hold them down, or yank their clothes off in public, becomes a 14, 16, 19, 23 etc year old who feels the same way or worse – if no-one ever intervenes and tells them otherwise, or models good behaviour for them.

bekabot
bekabot
9 years ago

It’s telling, isn’t it, that these folks are only concerned about how much they love the young child, but there is no mention of any consideration they might have that the young child is not emotionally, physically, or mentally developed enough to love anyone in that fashion.

I’m going to go slightly off-topic and pull what may be an unwarranted comparison. What these guys are looking for seems to parallel what some fans of “parent-centered” child-rearing are after, in a weird way. Both want a very young person to love them or be grateful to them with an intensity that, as you say, no kid that age is equipped to handle: that kind of emotion is just not on the kid’s register as of yet (or if it is something is seriously wrong). But this is something the adult absolutely forbids himself/herself to recognize: my baby ought to love me as much or more as I love him/her, because Jesus says so, or: the paper-girl who lives down the street ought to quit avoiding me and recognize that I’m not such a bad guy, because I honestly think she’s cute (ergo I’m not just playing around with her) and because all my asshole-buddies agree that I’ve got a right to behave the way I’m behaving. There’s no evaluation of the target of these sentiments as a separate being at all. There’s no assessment of reality whatsoever in either case.

sunnysombrera
9 years ago

@Tracy
That sounds awful and I’m sorry that happened to you and all the other girls at your school. Not sorry towards the little shits that did it. Who the fuck thinks it’s acceptable or even remotely true to say “it means he likes you” when a boy assaults a girl like that? Harassment and violence is affection now? Way to give the girls a complex and tell the boys that they’ll be off the hook if they ever want to assault someone female.

I don’t know what the name of the school governing board is in your country but they should have been all over that problem from day one. Nobody reported this to the superintendents?

because reasons
because reasons
9 years ago

@Tracy
Same shit happened to me in school. I was bullied badly by girls and boys (although i always had more boy-friends than girls). And any time I spoke up about it I got this:
The boys do it because you’re pretty and they like you.
The girls do it because you’re pretty and they’re jealous.
So my young brain was very confused about consent and things that *feel* wrong. I also learned that girls are catty bitches and competition for boys. Boys that will humiliate, tease, inappropriately touch, etc. me because they have some kind of crush on me. Wut?
Nowadays there’s much more awareness about bullying in school, but it’s usually the same-sex kind of bullying that people think of as “being picked on”, not this sexual stuff. And it’s ALL bullying and ALL wrong!

epitome of incomprehensibility

@because reasons
That’s very true. I was looking at this thread yesterday and I wasn’t sure if I should say anything, but the first time I was harassed in any obviously sexual way was when I was 9, by a boy a year or two older than me. We were in a sort of kids group that met in a church, and somehow he convinced me to go with him into the Sunday School room closet (this detail seems funny in retrospect) where he tried to touch my crotch and have me do the same to him. He called it the “tickle game” (and this detail seems really, really creepy in retrospect because it sounds like something an adult child abuser would say – I don’t want to speculate on this kid’s home life, but I hope nothing like that ever happened to him).

I was sort of confused because 1) I was just too young to want to do sexual stuff with anybody, and 2) he didn’t “like” me. In fact, he’d been bothering me in other ways: kicking my feet under the table, calling me names, and so on. Thankfully he left me alone when he saw I wasn’t into it. I wasn’t traumatized, but it bothered me even at the time, since when I was a kid I thought “touchy, huggy stuff” = “love or like” and I knew I wasn’t his favourite person in the world.

td;lr: sexual harassment doesn’t equal “oh, he liiiiiikes you.” Nope, nope, and nope. And I’m sorry about everyone who’s had such experiences.

because reasons
because reasons
9 years ago

@epitome
There is very little chance that boy came up with it on his own, using that terminology. So sad when you realize how the cycle is perpetuated from abuser to victim, victim then (in some cases) becomes an abuser or (more often) self-abuses. 🙁

Spaceman
Spaceman
9 years ago

@mildlymagnificent and others like @autosoma:

I am definitely with you and your idea is a great one. I hope to emulate it with my kids.

I just wish it extended beyond the parents and included the school sex-ed system. If more boys were taught at a younger age that this stuff is harmful, I think many would stop and change their ways. Especially if it was taught in a manner such as this, with anonymized accounts of women recounting their life at a young age and how that negatively affected them. I hope more boys would think twice before catcalling if they had to read twenty plus accounts of how catcalling traumatized young girls. It hopefully puts a face on their crime.

As a dad I worry about what I can do to make sure my son does not turn out to be one of these abusers/harassers/rapists, and what I can do to protect my daughter from becoming a victim. Hopefully I and my best friend in the world [a.k.a. Wife] are doing it right.

At least I know an easy place to start – don’t give him something negative to copy and don’t let him hang out with those who have someone negative to copy.

Lea
Lea
9 years ago

Spaceman,
Agreed. But, educating about consent can start before they ever know what sex is.

I have a little boy who likes to fight. Loves it. He says he wants to be a boxer. Sometimes his friends and siblings want to fight with him. It’s play. Sometimes they don’t and he’d rather not take “No” for an answer. That is bullying.

So, we’ve had some serious talks about how things that look fun or morally OK in movies are often not, how people’s bodies belong to them and we don’t do things to their bodies that they don’t want us to do even if that thing is a hug. I told him that even if Timmy was play fighting with him before and having fun, it’s over when he stops wanting to play and I mean the second he stops wanting to play. Period. Paragraph. It’s over.

People who voluntarily fight in rings = cool

People who hit other people without their consent anywhere = assholes

I think he’s gotten the message.

Teaching consent doesn’t even have to be about sex.I think the key is teaching children (because girls need to know this too) that women and girls are people with rights.

Still, comprehensive sexual education including education concerning consent should be a given in our schools.

Bina
9 years ago

our society doesnt even judge those assholes. They can get away with everything.

That’s because their behavior is normalized. It’s considered to be “what manly men do to prove they’re really men!” It has nothing to do with “class”, and everything to do with how me act as a class. As in, they’re a social step above women, and this is how they show it: by putting us in what they have decided is “our” place. And the way they do it is specifically sexualized: “Look, I’m superior to this inferior female! See how scared she is that I could rape her?”

So of course women showing their bodies without shame are considered a “provocation”. As are women who dare to step outside their assigned social class by taking on “men’s jobs” and succeeding at them. Gotta put those uppity women down before they get ideas, y’know!

Penny
Penny
9 years ago

Had a junior high teacher who began rubbing my back, making me feel very uncomfortable. I reported him, with predicable results. I was in my twenties when he was finally caught at it. Ran into him at temple a few years after with my daughters… Urgh, I wanted to scream, and get my kids away from him.

But what’s even worse was my daughter started middle school this year, and four days into the semester her social studies teacher disappeared, he was then charged with sexual assault of a minor. I had to explain this to her. We shouldn’t have to worry about these things.