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Woman Oppresses Husband By Getting Fat; Men's Rights Redditors Outraged

Huh/ Maybe she should get in touch with this guy. (Actual weight-gain ad circa 1970)
Maybe she should get in touch with this guy. (Actual weight-gain ad circa 1970)

Sitting near the top of the front page of the Men’s Rights Reddit at the moment, with more than 300 upvotes: A post, based on a three and a half year old comment on a Fat Acceptance blog, with the title “Woman gains 65 pounds after getting married, forces husband to get Viagra after he is no longer attracted to her.”

Brace yourself for the HORROR of a wife who put on weight in blatant disregard of the rights of her husband’s boner.

Oh, the bonermanity!
Oh, the bonermanity!

Naturally, the Men’s Rights Redditors are OUTRAGED at this insidious assault on a man’s right to tell his wife that she’s too fat and ugly to fuck.

Here’s the top comment, with more than 100 upvotes:

ruskyandrei 103 points 4 hours ago       I just can't help but feel like I am the one who should change ?  Must be quite difficult to grasp this basic truth when all the media bombards you with bullshit about how men should love you no matter what etc...

The charming blueoak9 set the “ignorant sow” straight on a question of Boner Science:

blueoak9 66 points 3 hours ago*   "Wiil ensure arousal"? Ignorant sow. Viagra doesn't make you aroused. It just causes an erection. Learn something about men's bodies for fuck's sake.

Others concluded, from the fact that he agreed to try Viagra, that she was essentially drugging and raping him. No, really.

Surprentis 50 points 4 hours ago   Might as well be rape at that point.      permalink     embed     save     report     give gold     reply  [–]ManRAh 31 points 3 hours ago   She's literally drugging him so he'll have sex with her. By definition, it absolutely is.

Carchamp1 expanded on this, er, logic:

carchamp1 1 point 44 minutes ago   This is not consent. He's doing it because he has to. In case you haven't heard divorce really sucks for men.  I've been saying for many years that Viagra is a rape drug. This is but one example. I'm telling you that these guys who can't get it up, can't get it up for the wives. It's not a physical problem usually. These guys are just trying to avoid divorce.  edit: Just in case you're not sure where I'm going with this, you are fantastically off base.  "He is consenting to it, but obviously he does not want to have sex with her."  Are you fucking kidding me?

So never let it be said that Men’s Rights activists don’t take rape seriously. They take it very seriously when a man is raped by a woman by agreeing to try Viagra and then having consensual sex with her even though she’s a fatty.

 

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Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
6 years ago

Hey M., come quick, marinerachel just screamed and swore at someone they disagreed with. You need to scold them!

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

Thanks for importing hostility between yourself and someone else and dragging me into it, Cyberwulf. Super grownup of you!

How about just dropping the issue or dealing with it directly with M. and leaving me out of it entirely? Because all you’ve done here is engender hostility and unnecessarily carry on conflict. You haven’t contributed anything of value.

Telling someone to blow it out their ass isn’t screaming.

tinyorc
6 years ago

marinerachel:

Furthermore, the jump to demonise the husband and neutralise the wife blowing up in this thread has been gross.

I call bullshit. Most people on this thread have acknowledged that the husband did nothing wrong, that you cannot control who you are attracted to, that no one should feel pressured into having sex with someone their not attracted to and that this may well have been a legitimate reason to end their marriage.

Most people have also acknowledged that discovering your partner is no longer attracted to you because of a change in your physical appearance would be devastating, and that devastation may manifest it as an emotional reaction which could reasonably include crying/yelling/etc.

People are attempting to “neutralize” the wife because for some reason commenters on this thread have built up an entire abusive wife narrative around the use of LITERALLY ONE VERB. People are assuming that because this lady did not express remorse for her “explosion” in a couple of paragraphs of hastily-typed comment giving an undoubtedly abridged version of events, she obviously never apologized to her husband in person and probably explodes at him on the regular and never feels any remorse at all. I don’t know how we got here, but it’s bizarre. As I said in an earlier comment, the wife could well have been an asshole in that moment or an asshole more generally. But there’s a large gulf between “She probably shouldn’t have lost her temper” and “She abused him into medicating himself into having sex with her.”

Mrex:

Feeling anger is always fine, it’s exploding on someone that is fundamentally abusive/manipulative.

If you think expressing anger is a fundamentally abusive, I don’t think we’re going to see eye-to-eye on this. In an ideal world, obviously we’d all talk about our problems and disagreements in calm measured tones and never raise our voices in frustration or swear or say things we don’t mean in the heat of the moment. That’s not reality.

I’m interested – do you think yelling at your SO because you discovered they were cheating within a committed monogamous relationship is abusive?

I will tell a story. I had a boyfriend who used to make fun of me in front of his friends quite a lot and share what I considered private things about our relationship framed as funny stories. I had several calm reasonable talks with him about how this made me uncomfortable and I understood that this kind of teasing was the culture of his friend group but I always felt like a punchline and not a participant and I never knew how to respond and it was very upsetting and could he please stop? He did a good show of listening in the moment, but always lapse back into after a while. One day, after a particularly egregious evening of constant jokes at my expense, I was burning with humiliated fury as we left the party, but keeping silent because I didn’t trust myself to speak without “exploding”. Boyfriend obviously picked up on the monosyllabic answers and refusal to meet his eyes, and eventually came out with an utterly oblivious “What, are you annoyed with me or something?”

“Exploded” would have been a mild way to describe the level to which I flipped my shit at that moment. I said everything I’d said to him before, except this time I said it about twenty decibels louder with my face going red and tears streaming down my cheeks. He screamed back, we had a huge row, my voice was hoarse and my face was puffy for the entire next day. But do you know what? He listened. When we talked about it afterwards (and we both apologised, since some people on this thread will apparently assume that bit never happened if I don’t explicitly state it) he told me he had not realized over the course of our several reasonable discussions that he was hurting me that much. It was the eventual explosion that made him start taking this issue seriously. He made a visible effort to stop making fun of me in public and respect my need to keep certain parts of our relationship private. That fight released a huge amount of tension I didn’t know I had been carrying. Our relationship improved.

So, was this a legitimate expression of anger or was I abusive for “exploding” at him? Was he abusive for exploding right back? Was the ensuing screaming match both of us abusing each other? Do you think I manipulated him into changing his behaviour by abusing him with my anger? I’m asking out of genuine curiosity.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

The husband has repeatedly been referred to as an asshole repeatedly.

Becoming angry out of hurt is perfectly reasonable. Taking that out on your partner because they don’t want to fuck you is not.

“She manipulated him into using boner pills/having sex with her with her anger” is a HUGE, stupid leap of logic. We don’t know whether “explosive” behaviour is habitual for this person or that her husband agreed to therapy and boner pills out of fear. They may have been his ideas. She may also feel terribly sorry for having gone off on the dude. Maybe all exploding is was bursting into tears. Who knows? Not us.

Another stupid as shit conclusion is “He’s obviously a bad guy”. The fact a guy doesn’t find his wife attractive after she gained 65lbs and he didn’t tell her so until it was too late doesn’t tell us that at all.

Paradoxical Intention
6 years ago

Leela | April 1, 2015 at 11:17 pm
Anyway, did any of your see the video where the woman wears a fat suit and goes on tinder dates? Did you know they did a male version?

I hadn’t seen the male version until you posted it, but goddamn are there some stark differences between the two.

For those who haven’t seen it, I’ll elaborate:

The experiment: Have a skinny person with a Tinder profile put on a “fat costume” and set up to meet some dates.

Fat Woman Tinder date: Men made as many excuses as they could to leave quickly. Forced polite conversation. Aggressively asked her about her Tinder photos. Not one stuck around.

Fat Man Tinder Date: Women stuck around, made plans for other dates, gave kisses and hugs, sat down and relaxed with the guy, and talked about everything he asked about (even though I felt he was being a little contrary with the whole “I hate dogs” and “I can’t stand working with kids” comments).

All in all, the women were shown to be far more compassionate and non-judgmental.

lith
lith
6 years ago

@because reasons:

I don’t think personal attacks are going to help the conversation.

I completely agree.

It seems to me that any subject that results in this kind of disagreement is one that hasn’t been discussed thoroughly enough – i.e. there are issues that need resolving (even if the resolution is to live and let live). The real problem is that paradoxically that makes it a topic that’s really freakin’ hard to discuss without disagreement and argument so people avoid discussing it 🙁
It’s the airing of opinions that riles people, it challenges people’s long held assumptions/beliefs/sensitive points, which can be painful (even assuming no deliberate trolling making it worse).

And yet it’s the hard conversations like this that are the most valuable, I guess like lancing a boil, it just needs doing. It’s getting through it without casualties that’s the real trick.

lith
lith
6 years ago

@Paradoxical Intention:

Fat Woman Tinder date: Men made as many excuses as they could to leave quickly. Forced polite conversation. Aggressively asked her about her Tinder photos. Not one stuck around.

Does anyone know of any studies regarding peer pressure on guys to only date ‘hot babes’?
It’s my feeling that a lot of guys measure their self worth entirely on such things. It’s sad really because you’d spend all your life trying to live up to the expectations of ‘your group’, when in reality it’s possible that noone in your group even likes those things, they just believe everyone else does and are unwilling to challenge it. How would you even know, when everyone’s internalised it and won’t admit how they really feel?

Tyra Lith
Tyra Lith
6 years ago

Leela | April 1, 2015 at 10:35 pm
“This is just a huge onion for lots of people with sooo many layers. I think people should take a step back and look at the reasons why you’re having a strong response.
And then can we get back to mocking the dum-dum mras?”
So much this!

And:
“I’ve also got a higher libido than my husband – and the lack of sex in a relationship that happens because the man doesn’t want to do it, that can be very hurtful because our socialization that men *always* want sex.”
Virtual hugs if you want them. I know that feeling.

tinyorc
6 years ago

marinerachel:

“She manipulated him into using boner pills/having sex with her with her anger” is a HUGE, stupid leap of logic. We don’t know whether “explosive” behaviour is habitual for this person or that her husband agreed to therapy and boner pills out of fear. They may have been his ideas. She may also feel terribly sorry for having gone off on the dude. Maybe all exploding is was bursting into tears. Who knows? Not us.

Exactly. Which is why all the speculation on this thread about her probably/maybe being an abuser is horrifying and deserves pushback.

And yeah, I think the fundamental divide on this thread is that one camp think that expressing anger to a partner (beyond “actually dear, I’m really quite ticked off about all this”) is never ever acceptable and pretty much always abusive. The other camp thinks that anger is a valid emotion that absolutely can (and should) be expressed in non-coercive/manipulative ways. I don’t think the two camps are going to be reconciled, but at least now I have a better understanding of why so many people had such a strong reaction to the word “exploded”.

Anger can absolutely be abusive. Silence can also be abusive. Or it can be a defense mechanism against abuse. Mockery can be a fun part of a couple’s dynamic, or it can be a particularly awful and insidious form of abuse . Or it could be somewhere in the middle. Personally, I think putting a blanket label of “abusive” on surface behaviours (i.e. yelling) that could potentially in some contexts be abusive is unhelpful because it makes it more difficult to identify the patterns and dynamics that drive abuse.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

Oh lith, there’s a whole bundle of issues there!

Now, don’t know of any peer reviewed research but hey, we’re only not CERN so we can go with anecdotal evidence if we want.

You only have to consider the phrase “trophy wife”.

I suspect also there’s a lot of pressure on young guys too; but let’s face it. They get judged on what cars and trainers they wear.

Interestingly though, it seems not uncommon for some men, once the relationship becomes ‘permanent’ to suddenly get all possessive if the woman continues to dress in an attractive fashion (“Why you going out all tarted up like that?” etc

Come to think of it, one area where this is demonstrated is in our self defence work. We’re always advising men to “leave the aggressor a way out”. So, for a pertinent example, if you get the classic “Oi, you looking at my bird?” we advise a response along the lines of “Yes sorry, couldn’t help it. She’s very attractive, you must be some guy to pull someone like that”.

Pandering to the male ego as a practical measure.

marinerachel
marinerachel
6 years ago

I wish I’d repeated the word repeatedly a few more times repeatedly.

proxieme
proxieme
6 years ago

I know Paul’s gone, but I saw this hypothetical yesterday and didn’t get a chance to respond.

My wife of six years recently stopped having sex with me.

I asked her why, and she said it’s the 65 pounds I have gained in the past year.

Honestly, if my husband gained that much weight in a year (or two) I’d worry that there was something physically (hormonally) wrong and/or that he was depressed and manifesting it with disordered eating. I’d address my concerns with him and affirm that I’m here for any and all support that he wants or needs.

I wouldn’t shame, harrass, exclude, or neglect him. (I’m not saying that the husband necessarily did so in this post’s case – there’s frankly not enough information for me to judge – but that’s what the rest of your hypothetical implied).

Point of fact, my (RL) husband has gained about 50 pounds since we got married 6 years ago, but it’s no great mystery why – he’s gone from having a fairly physically active field support position to having a primarily sedentary, programming-centric job.
I’m still terribly attracted to him (he’s muh fuzzy boo-bear) and we still have a very active sex life (for people with small children), but I do worry for him because he’s obviously not as energetic and has expressed dissatisfaction with the current state of his health and weight.

So, I’m making it a priority to set aside some space and money to make a little home gym with some weights and a treadmill (the closest gym to us is a ridiculous 30 minutes away one way – we have memberships, but the commute time isn’t often viable for us).
Besides that, some little diet tweaks are on the table (he doesn’t really drink and we seldom have dessert, but there is some wiggle room before we hit “restrictive diet” territory).

And so we’ll work out a bit more, eat a bit less, and try to be healthy TOGETHER since we’re a committed, monogamous couple and that’s how we roll. But I’ll still love him and have sex with him and annoy him if he doesn’t lose weight or gains weight or gets a horrible disease or becomes a severe burn victim or loses his limbs (again, because he’s muh boo-bear).

Everybody and every body and every relationship’s different, so maybe you should stop trying to lay out false parallels and equivalencies.
No hypothetical or stray conjecture can completely capture the intricacies of even the most simple human interaction. Compassion and empathy are better defaults than scorn and judgement.

Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
6 years ago

@Lith and Alan – oh, no doubt there’s pressure on men to date “acceptably attractive” women. The difference is that it’s more acceptable, imo, for (straight) men to have a certain standard of beauty for a partner. There’s this constant drumbeat of “men are visual creatures”, whereas women are told from the age of four that they must look at “what’s inside” when it comes to a potential partner (and meanwhile nearly all of their role models are conventionally pretty). So if a woman dumps a man, or refuses to date him at all, because he’s fat/ugly/poor/can’t dress himself she’s shallow and picky, while if a man dumps or won’t date a woman because she’s fat/plain/speccy well, boner can’t stoke the fire if the mantelpiece looks like shit! That’s just biology!

And a lot of us do internalise that and look at ourselves and say “of course he didn’t call after that first blind date, I’m chubby/spotty/there’s hair on my chin, I have to start making an effort if I want to be with someone”. It’s very rare to find women who’ll say “how dare men have standards” in the same numbers as men who say the same about the women who won’t date them.

proxieme
proxieme
6 years ago

Re: social pressure: Have any on you seen the Louie episode that addresses this?

proxieme
proxieme
6 years ago

Here’s a link if you’re in the US:

http://hulu.com/w/jbof

tinyorc
6 years ago

Cyberwulf:

And a lot of us do internalise that and look at ourselves and say “of course he didn’t call after that first blind date, I’m chubby/spotty/there’s hair on my chin, I have to start making an effort if I want to be with someone”

Whereas a vocal subset of men seem to think that being a “nice guy” is the only requirement they should have to fill in order to secure a relationship with the hot woman of their dreams.

I don’t think I have ever encountered a scenario, either real or fictional, when I’ve heard a woman say something to the effect of: “Can you believe he turned me down? Even though I’m super nice girl? What an asshole!”

lith
lith
6 years ago

@Cyberwulf:

oh, no doubt there’s pressure on men to date “acceptably attractive” women.

I guess what I’m really wanting to know (as there’s obviously some pressure) is to what extent that affects people’s decisions when it comes to choosing who we’d like to be with.

@tinyorc:

I think where the ‘nice guy’ thing falls down is that not many people are going to believe they’re not ‘nice’, so you’re really saying you’re about the same as everyone else. In which case you need to distinguish yourself by also being interesting or fun, or something. And accepting that a single adjective isn’t enough to recommend you to someone.

sevenofmine
6 years ago

I think where the ‘nice guy’ thing falls down is that not many people are going to believe they’re not ‘nice’, so you’re really saying you’re about the same as everyone else. In which case you need to distinguish yourself by also being interesting or fun, or something. And accepting that a single adjective isn’t enough to recommend you to someone.

So much this. Nice pretty much means “not actively unpleasant”. If you want someone to take a particular interest in you, you’ve got to bring more than “nice”.

sunnysombrera
6 years ago

Nice Guy: “But I’m NICE!”

Me: “…so is everyone I know! That’s why I spend time with them!”

I don’t have a long list of requirements for a partner but I’m an adventurous soul who is not afraid of risks, and I wouldn’t mind a fella who is happy to come along with me for the ride. “Nice” is okay and all, but it’s a basic standard much like you expect a basic cup of coffee to have coffee granules in it (dissolved of course).

tinyorc
6 years ago

Fun story about “nice”: My boyfriend is not a native English speaker, and he tends to use “nice” interchangeably with stronger adjectives such as “great”. In particular, he frequently tells me that I’m “so nice”. While I understood what he was getting at, it always made me giggle a bit, because it’s sort of bizarre to be told you’re “nice” in such emphatic tones. Eventually, I explained that in English, “nice” is generally used to describe a person who is pleasant and bland and has very little else to recommend them. He got the distinction, but now it’s a running joke.

He also once told me that my dress looked “awful”, because he got mixed up somewhere between “awesome” and “wonderful”. I was a bit taken aback, but now it’s part of the joke and we say things like “you’re so nice and awful” to each other to express affection.

/end ridiculous coupleness

mrex
mrex
6 years ago

@tinyorc “People are attempting to “neutralize” the wife because for some reason commenters on this thread have built up an entire abusive wife narrative around the use of LITERALLY ONE VERB”

*smashes face into table* AGAIN, there is a difference between abusive behavior and being an abuser . Abusive behavior is aggressive behavior that uses your influence on someone to be harmful or hurtful. Abusive people are people who do abusive things, over and over again, on purpose.

Were you being abusive when you exploded? Yes. Was your boyfriend being abusive when he exploded? Yes. Have I ever been abusive? Yes. Are either of you abusers? I don’t know, but probably not. Am I an abuser? No, but due to my rage problems, I’ve come close.

Sorry if that sucks to hear, but I won’t euphamize our sins. There’s a reason why yelling/exploding is listed on every list of emotional abuse that’s ever existed as a tactic used by abusers; it’s an abusive behavior. EVERY behavior on those lists is an unhealthy, abusive behavior. They’re also all really common behaviors. Humanity sucks. News at 10.

(Note: that Carlin skit is great in many ways, and off point in many ways. Much like Carlin himself, it’s great when it’s good, and terrible when it’s bad. Still makes my general point quite nicely).

“Most people have also acknowledged that discovering your partner is no longer attracted to you because of a change in your physical appearance would be devastating, and that devastation may manifest it as an emotional reaction which could reasonably include crying/yelling/etc.”

No, everyone here acknowledged that it would be devastating, and everyone here acknowledged that “exploding” on someone in a relationship is at least unhelpful. The disagreement seems to be in how harmful “exploding” on someone is, and on whether it’s reasonable based on her devastation.

And on that last point; know what else often gets put on lists of abusive behavior? Blaming your behavior on being very upset, angry, devastated, etc. Your free to think she was “reasonable”, I’m free to disagree, but she CHOSE to explode, it’s not a function of her emotions, it was her choice. Nothing more. Nothing less. We ALL have complete control over our behavior. And we all sometimes make the wrong choice.

In before someone replies some thing like; “You think it is abusive to explode on a man, you must think that women must always be sunshine, BJs, gumdrops, and sugarcoat desprate begging instead of directly expressing their hurt and anger”. And as fun as false dichotomies are, the fact is you can be direct and firm, and you can show hurt and anger, without yelling.

Emmy Rae
Emmy Rae
6 years ago

tinyorc, that is a sweet story 🙂

Lea
Lea
6 years ago

Pandering to the male ego as a form of self defense is something I have seen and done. I think we all learn it sooner or later. Deescalation skills with violent men can save your life.

I once saw a high school friend who was pinned against her car by her jealous, yelling bf get him to let her go by telling him that the wind was messing up her hair. He let go, she told him she’d call him later and we got in the car and drove off. I was speechless and impressed. She convinced him that she wasn’t leaving as an act of “disrespect” to him. She was leaving because the wind was making her less pretty. He stopped being threatening and let her go. He felt sufficiently dominate and that kept her safe momentarily. She pulled it off masterfully. I hate to think of why she seemed so practiced at it.

Emmy Rae
Emmy Rae
6 years ago

Hey, mrex? I don’t know others’ views but I’d like to let this discussion go. I take your point and I’m hoping the thread can move on. Others may feel differently.

mrex
mrex
6 years ago

@cyberwulf “There’s this constant drumbeat of “men are visual creatures”, whereas women are told from the age of four that they must look at “what’s inside” when it comes to a potential partner (and meanwhile nearly all of their role models are conventionally pretty). So if a woman dumps a man, or refuses to date him at all, because he’s fat/ugly/poor/can’t dress himself she’s shallow and picky, while if a man dumps or won’t date a woman because she’s fat/plain/speccy well, boner can’t stoke the fire if the mantelpiece looks like shit! That’s just biology!”

^
OMG this soo much.

It’s funny how traditional masculinity constrains men. The way that part of society thinks that men only sexually respond to women based on their looks reminds me of lizards mating. Emotional intamcy? Ewwww what’s that?

mrex
mrex
6 years ago

@ Emmy Rae

Yeah, I’m pretty much done with the discussion myself. Either I’ve made my point or I haven’t. Some people minimize the impact that women’s verbal violence can have on men. This attitude does a lot of harm in the world. It never was about the wife’s entire personality.

/my POV 🙂

tinyorc
6 years ago

mrex:

Were you being abusive when you exploded? Yes. Was your boyfriend being abusive when he exploded? Yes. Have I ever been abusive? Yes. Are either of you abusers? I don’t know, but probably not. Am I an abuser? No, but due to my rage problems, I’ve come close.

Also a long-time sufferer of anger problems (I am much much better now) and I’m trying very hard to see where you’re coming from, but I just don’t think we’re going to see eye-to-eye on this. Like I said, I don’t think it’s useful to label every single incident of someone raising their voice as abusive behaviour. And I’m not saying this because I’ve done this in the past – I’m perfectly fine with you labeling it as abusive. But as you point out, humans do lots of negative things to each other and engaging unhealthy and unhelpful behaviours all the time. I literally can’t see how assigning all those behaviours to the category of “abusive” helps us identify root causes or furthers our understanding of how abuse dynamics works in relationships. As I understand abusive behaviour, it’s a) usually part of a pattern (i.e., behaviours that would be innocuous in isolation become red flags when they appear alongside other behaviours) and b) have a power dynamic at play (as in, one partner gradually claims the other’s power and agency through abusive tactics).

There’s a reason why yelling/exploding is listed on every list of emotional abuse that’s ever existed as a tactic used by abusers; it’s an abusive behavior. EVERY behavior on those lists is an unhealthy, abusive behavior.

There’s a reason that alcohol is mentioned in every single rape prevention guide that’s every existed; because it’s the single most common tactic used by rapists to incapacitate their victims. It does not follow that all drunk sex is rape. Also, you’re conflating unhealthy and abusive here.

We ALL have complete control over our behavior.

Do we? I am physically incapable of preventing myself from crying, going red and losing control over my vocal pitch when I’m in a heightened state of emotion. If there are techniques to get this under control, I’d love to know about them. My usual tactic would be to leave the room or stay silent until I have myself under control, but of course walking out on a partner while they’re trying to speak to me or refusing to answer them could also be seen as abusive. In an ideal world, we would always be exactly as calm, firm, direct, reasonable, measured as a given situation demands and I think that’s something we should aspire to in our relationships, but we’re not robots and I’m not sure who it’s helping to be like “aha! abusive behaviour!” every time someone slips up. And yes, I’m aware that abusers frequently use “I lost control/I was over-emotional/You just upset me so much!” as a cover for their behaviour, which is fucked up and totally unacceptable. But that doesn’t change the fact that much of human behaviour is a direct function of our emotions. Emotions and rational choice don’t exist in vacuums entirely independently of each other.

tinyorc
6 years ago

@mrex and @Emmy Rae, oops, I’m sorry, I posted a monster comment and then saw that general consensus was to let it go! My apologies.

Mrex, I completely agree that women are capable of committing verbal violence towards men and this is a thing that should be minimized by society. That much we definitely agree on.

tinyorc
6 years ago

ff, *a thing that should NOT be minimized by society. OK, too much thinking, I am done!

ceebarks
ceebarks
6 years ago

There’s this constant drumbeat of “men are visual creatures”, whereas women are told from the age of four that they must look at “what’s inside” when it comes to a potential partner (and meanwhile nearly all of their role models are conventionally pretty). So if a woman dumps a man, or refuses to date him at all, because he’s fat/ugly/poor/can’t dress himself she’s shallow and picky, while if a man dumps or won’t date a woman because she’s fat/plain/speccy well, boner can’t stoke the fire if the mantelpiece looks like shit! That’s just biology!

Yeah, there’s some serious longstanding double standard bullshit going on there. I think it’s changing some, though. The idea that women are mostly into emotional connection or money/power made sense in a world where women had to go through men to get basically anything, but in a world where women have gained at least SOME control of their own destinies… it makes perfect sense to me that male beauty would start making its way up the list of priorities.

MRAs and other assorted cranky pants traditionalists don’t like it and paint it as “shallow” since they think the aforementioned society was a desirable state of nature…

but I think it’s a pretty great development for people who actually like sex. ha.

Plus, a little taste of how much energy it takes up to continually meet someone else’s “reasonable, minimal!” physical standards is good for the gander, imo. It is certainly not effortless.

because reasons
because reasons
6 years ago

It *is* nice to have some men finally realizing what beauty standards are, and how frustrating it is to try to always meet them (or be expected to). I’d prefer a shift to body acceptance for everyone, so the standards go out the window…but, baby steps.
Unfortunately, you have these ass clowns (MRA types) that are always going to hold onto the idea that women have to maintain “hot babe” status, but they can be disgusting slobs if they choose and not only should said women not have a problem with it, they should jump eagerly onto their boners!

tinyorc
6 years ago

ceebarks:

Plus, a little taste of how much energy it takes up to continually meet someone else’s “reasonable, minimal!” physical standards is good for the gander, imo. It is certainly not effortless.

This reminds me of the “secret uggo” post from a while ago where all the misters were shocked, SHOCKED I TELL YOU, to discover that things like make-up and form-fitting clothes actually have significant appearance-enhancing properties! So they were angry about being “deceived”, but then also angry that the vast majority of women are “secret uggos” because we have things like pores, which become visible once our deceptive slutty make-up masks are stripped away. Another classic case of Women Can’t Win™

These days, whenever a man tells me that he prefers “natural beauty”, I hear “I would prefer if you could just tumble out of bed looking like a photoshopped supermodel, because watching you faff around with mascara and hair treatments and control tights kind of ruins the illusion for me.”

Emmy Rae
Emmy Rae
6 years ago

Thanks for agreeing to move on, y’all.

One thing I am weirdly intrigued by is men who absolutely will not wear pink, shorts of any more or less than x number of centimeters from their knees, shoes that are at all interesting, clothing that isn’t navy/gray/black etc. Men who are dress aggressively plainly who also see women as obsessed with their appearance. Like do you not realize how much time you put into your boring outfits? I have a few friends like that and it makes me laugh/cry.

mrex
mrex
6 years ago

@tinyorc “And yes, I’m aware that abusers frequently use “I lost control/I was over-emotional/You just upset me so much!” as a cover for their behaviour, which is fucked up and totally unacceptable. But that doesn’t change the fact that much of human behaviour is a direct function of our emotions. Emotions and rational choice don’t exist in vacuums entirely independently of each other.”

Oh I agree that emotions and rational choice don’t exist in vacuums entirely independent of each other; but a lot of evil is done in this world based on strong emotion as well. 🙂 Very few people in jail; very few serial killers, or tyrants, or rapists, or abusers, committed their crimes in the absence of one strong emotion or another, whether that emotion was anger, or fear, or pride, or greed, or whatever. Emotion is the human condition. 🙂

But your points are taken. 🙂 I’m responding because I wanted to respond to this;

“Do we? I am physically incapable of preventing myself from crying, going red and losing control over my vocal pitch when I’m in a heightened state of emotion. If there are techniques to get this under control, I’d love to know about them. My usual tactic would be to leave the room or stay silent until I have myself under control, but of course walking out on a partner while they’re trying to speak to me or refusing to answer them could also be seen as abusive.”

Yeah, sounds like maybe you’re Flooding ? When you get like this, leaving is exactly what you should do, and there is NOTHING abusive about saying “I need some time to think, let’s continue this discussion in an hour?”

Interestingly, all things held equal, men emotionally flood easier and faster than women. Neurobiological differences, maybe?

mrex
mrex
6 years ago

@tinyorc

“These days, whenever a man tells me that he prefers “natural beauty”, I hear ‘I would prefer if you could just tumble out of bed looking like a photoshopped supermodel, because watching you faff around with mascara and hair treatments and control tights kind of ruins the illusion for me.’ ”

LOL. So true! 🙂

ceebarks
ceebarks
6 years ago

These days, whenever a man tells me that he prefers “natural beauty”, I hear “I would prefer if you could just tumble out of bed looking like a photoshopped supermodel, because watching you faff around with mascara and hair treatments and control tights kind of ruins the illusion for me.”

seriously!

When I was 19 or so I worked with a guy who was like the definition of the creepy old dude, for so many reasons. I guess he was in his early forties at the time.

He got to talking about how he hated women who wore makeup and was like “look at you! you never wear makeup and you look fine! They all should just be natural. I don’t like all this fake stuff, who do they think they’re fooling?!” ‘course, I was sitting there wearing a full face of foundation, concealer, blush, and mascara. Probably a bit of sheer powder, too. And an expensive professionally-done hairstyle.

Don’t get me wrong, was kind of flattered that the application was good enough that this crusty ol’ makeup-hater evidently didn’t notice it was on day in and day out: that’s largely the point of office-appropriate daytime makeup.

but yeah, if your idea of the “natural look” for women-in-general is… a 19 year old wearing a full face of makeup… I don’t even know what to say except…

wow, they think WE are unrealistic?! ha!

Emmy Rae
Emmy Rae
6 years ago

Ha, my sister and I never wear makeup. Every once in a while her fiance does her makeup and everyone oohs and ahhs. But usually, when we are both barefaced, NO ONE says how nice we look. People who “love the natural look” or whatever are not impressed by my natural look.

because reasons
because reasons
6 years ago

@tinyorc

These days, whenever a man tells me that he prefers “natural beauty”, I hear “I would prefer if you could just tumble out of bed looking like a photoshopped supermodel, because watching you faff around with mascara and hair treatments and control tights kind of ruins the illusion for me.”

QFT

tinyorc
6 years ago

@mrex: Your points are also taken and thanks for pointing me towards flooding, I had never heard of it before.

Emmy Rae:

One thing I am weirdly intrigued by is men who absolutely will not wear pink, shorts of any more or less than x number of centimeters from their knees, shoes that are at all interesting, clothing that isn’t navy/gray/black etc.

I also have a story about this! I worked in a shoe shop for years and the main brand we sold was Birkenstock. For those who aren’t familiar, Birkenstocks are ergonomic German sandals with a bit of a cult following, so the shop had weird amount of regulars with lots of opinions on the shoes. Anyway, there was one older man who used to always come in and complain (good-naturedly, generally) about the fact that women’s wall was a blazing rainbow of colours and patterns and the men’s wall was black, grey and brown and how you ladies get all the fun with colours and us poor deprived blokes never get a look in, blah etc.

Then one day we got the new catalogue in and I saw that there was a red men’s sandal available as a standard product. So next time this regular came in, I showed him the catalogue and explained that we could order it in for him at no extra cost if he was interested. We had the same colour in one of the women’s sandals, so I showed it to him so he could get an idea. He squinted at it for a second, screwed up his nose and said “Jesus… I mean, it’s very red.”

After he left, my boss stuck his head of the stock room and proclaimed solemnly, “And that is why we only stock men’s shoes in brown, black and grey.”

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
6 years ago

@ tinyorc

He, do you have the “Never brown in town” rule where you are? (More of a social convention obviously).

In the Guards (a military unit over here) the rule is that you can’t even wear brown shoes East of Ascot.

weirwoodtreehugger
6 years ago

See also men who are only attracted to very thin women but want women who eat burgers and steaks, drink lots of beer and don’t worry about their weight.

Yes, there are naturally skinny women who eat a ton and don’t gain weight, but they are a small portion of the population after the age of 25 or so. Are men really so clueless that they don’t realize that for most women thinness requires work, sometimes to a disordered extent? Apparently, yes.

because reasons
because reasons
6 years ago

Blech. Don’t get me started on what men “expect” of women without realizing what that means or how unrealistic it may be. Also, when someone you’re with isn’t able to “roll with the punches”, as in, take some temporary or maybe even permanent changes to your appearance or personality when they are beyond your control is quite sad. Yes, there are exceptions. But as an example, I had to take a medication once that I knew would have some serious side effects…but decided to try it for 2 weeks as a compromise. My bf at the time made sure I knew what a depressed bitch the meds had turned me into and that he couldn’t stand it. Being supportive wasn’t in his vocab, though. Needless to say, the med didn’t even work so I stopped it.

GhostBird
GhostBird
6 years ago

In regards to men’s clothing, I find it absolutely abyssal how little choice is generally available to them. Mr Ghostbird hates it too, and generally buys clothes that favor a more elegant, interesting style; recently he acquired a Victorian-style red brocade waistcoat and several nicely cut linen shirts, all of which make me drool when he wears them. But in so doing, people constantly question his sexual preferences and have even quietly asked me why I’m acting as his ‘beard’! It’s absolutely absurd how rigidly men must dress lest someone think they’re – gasp! Horror of horrors! – gaaaaaay.

because reasons
because reasons
6 years ago

@GhostBird
his “beard”? Wth does that even mean? Ugh. His garments sound magnificent!

M.
M.
6 years ago

@because reasons

“Beard” means “Gay but dating/married to a partner of the opposite sex to look straight,” generally applied to men. I know a few people who’ve been taking it back, using it as a silly self-deprecating joke, but nine times out of ten it’s just pretty damn homophobic.

mrex
mrex
6 years ago

@tinyorc No problem, glad I can help. 🙂

Knowing about flooding has helped me avoid doing or saying things that I may later regret and also helped me to spot times where maybe I should take a break because my discussion partner themself is getting overwhelmed. It’s tough, because my emotional makeup tends to be more fight and less flight, but knowing that 90% of success is not setting myself up for failure helps. Anyway, I still suck. 🙁

I’m loving the stories about appearance and gender. I don’t know how you guys feel about the book, but maybe this Gone Girl quote is in order?

“Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, shit on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.

Men actually think this girl exists. Maybe they’re fooled because so many women are willing to pretend to be this girl. For a long time Cool Girl offended me. I used to see men – friends, coworkers, strangers – giddy over these awful pretender women, and I’d want to sit these men down and calmly say: You are not dating a woman, you are dating a woman who has watched too many movies written by socially awkward men who’d like to believe that this kind of woman exists and might kiss them. I’d want to grab the poor guy by his lapels or messenger bag and say: The bitch doesn’t really love chili dogs that much – no one loves chili dogs that much! And the Cool Girls are even more pathetic: They’re not even pretending to be the woman they want to be, they’re pretending to be the woman a man wants them to be. Oh, and if you’re not a Cool Girl, I beg you not to believe that your man doesn’t want the Cool Girl. It may be a slightly different version – maybe he’s a vegetarian, so Cool Girl loves seitan and is great with dogs; or maybe he’s a hipster artist, so Cool Girl is a tattooed, bespectacled nerd who loves comics. There are variations to the window dressing, but believe me, he wants Cool Girl, who is basically the girl who likes every fucking thing he likes and doesn’t ever complain. (How do you know you’re not Cool Girl? Because he says things like: “I like strong women.” If he says that to you, he will at some point fuck someone else. Because “I like strong women” is code for “I hate strong women.”)

Gillian Flynn, Gone Girl”

GhostBird
GhostBird
6 years ago

Beard = woman an in the closet gay man marries so he can pretend to be straight. Yes it’s an absurd, stupid as hell concept.

And yeah, without bragging too much I must say that Mr Ghostbird is quite the handsome fellow. He might not be everyone’s cup of tea (he’s skinny as a rail) but to me he has no equal.

M.
M.
6 years ago

*”Has a beard,” rather. Changed tack halfway though and forgot to edit the start of the sentence. =P

contrapangloss
6 years ago

Where I’m at, guys have the least choices in tops, but the most choices in jeans. It is odd.

I buy all of my “doing things jeans” off the guy racks, because I know my measurements (so it’s WAY faster than hunting through girl pants) and because guy jeans are actually denim and not the soft stretchy pseudo-denim that’s so popular with women’s jeans right now (and that I wear out in no time flat).

because reasons
because reasons
6 years ago

Oh my, I hadn’t heard that before! I’ve been called a “f*g h*g” before though, which sounds similar. I know this *does* happen- men pretending to be straight for various reasons, but for someone to assume that without knowing you, based on what your hubby was wearing? Don’t people have more important things to do?