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Sluthate’s “shitty advice” forum, devoted to discussing such high-minded topics as “Do fat women have dirtier vaginas?” and “why is rape bad,” is a haven for embittered “incels” — self-described “involuntary celibates” — who’ve convinced themselves that they are too objectively unattractive and un-alpha to attract attention from the cruel and superficial “sluts” of the world — a category that seems to include all the women they find attractive.
Back when the forum was known as PUAhate, it was a regular hangout of one especially embittered incel, a young man known as Elliot Rodger, who last year killed six in Isla Vista California, and then himself, in what he called his “Day of Retribution” against women. Many of Sluthate’s regulars, unsurprisingly, have embraced “ER” as a kind of incel martyr.
Now they’ve found a new and improved hero: Andreas Lubitz, the troubled co-pilot who, French officials say, deliberately flew Germanwings Flight 9525 into a mountain in the French Alps.
In a topic entitled BREAKING: Co-pilot was incel and crashed the plane!!!, Sluthate regulars have embraced Lubitz as “one of them” — and are enthusiastically celebrating his alleged mass murder as the possible beginning of a “Beta uprising.”
“New high score, and in a much shorter time too,” a commenter calling himself gobman3000 wrote happily. “Damn, legitimate SLAYER.”
Alienfranco was even more enthusiastic:
What a fucking SLAYER.
Did you ever know that you’re my hero? You are the wind beneath my WINGS. …
Why go out with a whimper when you can go out with a BANG? An incel killing 150+ people will make a lot more of an impact than killing 1 asshole or a few assholes.
A large percentage of the 150+ people on that plane were sluts and Chads anyway.
Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels and give us $2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.
OmegaKV noted that many of the passengers on the plane “were teenagers who were vacationing,” concluding
This was DEFINITELY an incel motivated plane crash.
He couldn’t take it too see so many good looking and happy teenagers with gfs, experiencing the adolescence he always longed for but never got, so took advantage of the perfect opportunity to kill himself while taking the teenage normalfags with him.
PuaKiller agreed:
Yeah. He definitely knew what he was doing. I can only imagine what he was feeling in that moment. Wow. …
This one is going in the hall of fame!
Largely dismissing the news reports suggesting that Lubitz did, in fact, have a girlfriend, the regulars examined each new picture of the alleged mass murderer that appeared in the media for telltale signs of his incel status.
PJ1 was brutal in his assessment:
-looks like a manlet from his proportions. I’d honestly be surprised if he’s over 5 10
-small frame
-critical balding
-beta face
OldRooster1 agreed:
guy does look like an incel manlet that came to the realization that the status of being a pilot was not enough to overcome his 3.5/10 looks/body.
“Look at that frame, he’s about 60kg soaking wet,” Jigar added. “I’d be surprised if his wrists were a hair over 6 inches thick.”
Still another commenter labeled him a “betafaced framecel” — whatever that is — and “the kind of guy that’s INVISIBLE.”
These are harsh assessments, to be sure, and in some cases seem to have virtually no connection with the photographic evidence, but the Sluthate regulars tend to be equally harsh in their assessments of themselves. Thread-starter Zark_Muckerberg, for example, attaches a sig to each of his posts quantifying his romantic and sexual failures:
gfs: 0
kisses: 0
handjobs: 0
blowjobs: 0
intercourse: 0
Having convinced themselves that they will never be able to have a life equal to that of the world’s “good looking and happy … normalfags,” the Sluthaters feel Lubitz’ pain — or, at least, the pain they imagine he felt.
Flawed Mentat blamed the killings on an uncaring world that didn’t deliver Lubitz the “good woman” he deserved.
HE did not fire the first shot. Women and Society, blase, branded HIM as non human, invisible, an object of scorn and laughter. So, when it sunk in that all his effort was in vain, there were no good women awaiting him, life was gonna be just as empty, lonely and horrifying as before he even started training as a pilot, well, he probably logically decided to declare war back on the human race, since it was open in its war on him.
ThereIsNoGame agreed:
Just lol @ reddit comments saying how creepy it is that he didn’t think about the lives of all the people he killed.
Yeah, well what about all the people who never gave a fuck about him. He was probably treated like shit over and over again.
Society never looks itself in the mirror when it is to blame.
Don’t treat people like shit and shit wont happen. Why is that so hard to understand?
He ended his comment with this chilling warning-cum-threat.
looks like more people will need to die until the message is drilled in.
Zygominati directed his ire at a familiar target:
I blame feminism for this. In days gone by pilots would flirt with stewardesses and pinch their arses. They would leave their hotel room ajar for layover shenanigans. Now they are bus drivers in the sky that can’t even take a shit. This incel was probably sold a dream and after countless hours of flight time realised there is nothing there.
Meanwhile, the few Sluthaters who didn’t utterly dismiss the news reports of Lubitz having a girlfriend seized on the reports that the two had broken up — and blamed the girlfriend for “cucking” him. As Patriarch put it,
If its true that his girlfriend cucked or dumped him, just imagine how smug this entitled shitcunt must feel like right now. Looking at him, she was a 4 at best but now she gets her own little fairytale drama story and she gets to go on TV and talk about how awful she feels and how she never expected this to happen. In the aftermath, a bunch of whiteknights will whiteknight her into oblivion and probably donate a million € to her fundme so she can learn to deal with this tragedy…. Fucking feminist shitcunt society
It goes without saying that all of these embittered rants are based almost entirely on projection. We know very little about Lubitz, or what might have motivated him to (allegedly) crash the plane, killing 149 innocent human beings and himself.
While news reports suggest that he had suffered from depression and from some other mental illnesses as yet unnamed, these revelations raise more questions than they answer. Depression can certainly contribute to suicide, but mass murder? Mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence than victimizers.
While it seems clear that Lubitz was not literally an “incel” — he apparently did have a girlfriend — it’s certainly possible that he crashed the plane because he was upset over a breakup with that girlfriend, or angry at women in general.
That’s not a conclusion we can draw based on looking at Lubitz’s “waist-hip-ratio” or the size of his wrists. It’s a possibility we can raise based on our understanding of how murder/suicides unfold in the real world.
As I pointed out yesterday, murder/suicide is overwhelmingly a male crime, and the victims are often wives, girlfriends or exes. Breakups often trigger rage in men, and a few take this rage out on the women they feel have wronged them. Or, in extreme cases, on women in general. The intended targets of Elliot Rodger’s rampage were what the “spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut[s]” in a local sorority. (Luckily, he was barred at the door and his plan collapsed.)
But even if Lubitz was driven by “incel rage” or something much like it, it’s worth pointing out that this rage is based on bullshit. Elliot Rodger was not objectively unattractive; his problems with women came from within, from a mixture of embittered entitlement, self-hatred and an assortment of other psychological demons.
Similarly, the rage of Sluthate’s incels is driven not by the actual behavior of women in the real world but by their fucked-up ideas about women — and themselves. Sluthaters hate themselves as much as they hate “sluts,” and project their own hyper-critical assessments of their own looks onto the women they think are perpetually judging them and finding them wanting. Ironically, they themselves view women with the same hyper-critical eyes, dismissing all but a handful of young, conventionally attractive women as “fugly hambeasts” and the like.
Sluthate reinforces a poisonous and supremely self-defeating way of looking at the world. Whether or not Lubitz was driven by “incel rage,” I think we have every reason to worry that Sluthate and other internet forums devoted to “incels” may be breeding more “heroes” like Elliot Rodger and, possibly, Andreas Lubitz.
Most of this has been covered rather excellently above; but my $0.02…..
“1. men desire short term sex significantly more than women, and their status is significantly more determined by this.”
[First part] In my experience, completely untrue. My happily single women friends are just as up for a bit of fun as myself and my single male friends. Some of my women friends are looking for (or more usually, in) long term relationships but I know plenty of men who are looking for, or have found, that special someone.
[Second part] You may be correct on this. Society as a whole can be much more judgmental of women who enjoy casual sex, whereas men are lauded for it (although, not always); but how’s that a plot by women to their advantage? At the risk of sounding like a Guardian editorial, that’s just an example of gender stereotyping and judging. Something, I am given to understand, that feminists tend not to be in favour of..
2. Women are more ‘picky’ – and can, at least for short term affairs, score above their ‘level.’
Possibly they are, but it’s almost a cliche that women are less concerned with physical attributes than men. A basic level of looking after yourself may ‘improve your chances’ (perhaps the odd shower, a bit of excercise maybe?) but on the whole, treating women with a bit of decency and respect, perhaps expressing the odd display of genuine interest, will get you much further than calling them bitches. If you do feel the need to manipulate women into liking you, instead of all the negging and begging, consider this saying:
“If you can make a woman laugh, you can make her do anything”
[Should clarify, not suggesting manipulating women is anything other than wrong]
“3. In terms of the affects of personalities, it seems well established that ‘nerdy’ males tend to do worse with women than men of other personality types. I don’t think there is such a significant deficit for nerdy females (men may prefer non nerds, but don’t seem to be attracted to the same type of social skills which women like from men, which nerds don’t have.)”
I can’t think of a better time to be a nerd. There’s been a definite shift in culture. I’m actually quite tall and keep in reasonable shape but I’ve had “Ooh, you look really cute when you wear glasses” quite a few times now. It may well be that “being able to fix a car” was/is a desirable trait; but you’re probably much better off being able to get a woman’s iBook working these days.
Hmm, realised part of that comes across a bit knobbish. I’m not cute; just friends being kind!
@Gandy
From Ridgeway & Correll (2004)*:
Gender is a result of how our society is currently constructed and how it functions, which means it is something we can change. Gender is not biologically defined, or do you deny the existence of transgender individuals?
Except what you said was:
You said “men,” which implies all men are like this. You did not specify, so by your own definition you were overgeneralizing.
I know that these things can be overcome because I was one of the people who overcame them. I used to be painfully shy, but I forced myself into social situations because I wanted to have friends and relationships. Sure, it was difficult and I made some embarrassing mistakes, but I learned from them and am now much better at social interactions.
I also find it very interesting that you ask me for references when you have yet to provide any of your own, even though I asked in my previous comment. Could you provide some of those references that say that gender is innate?
*Ridgeway, Cecilia L., and Shelley J. Correll. “Unpacking the gender system a theoretical perspective on gender beliefs and social relations.” Gender & society 18.4 (2004): 510-531.
Gandy, your reply is contradictory. You argue that choosing to sleep with certain people, while “individually permissible,” adds up to great “social ills,” and for this reason, sexual choices should be “constrained.” By this logic, your preference for black women would indeed be immoral.
Yet you find the idea that YOUR preferences should be constrained to be absurd. Why is that?
Again, it seems to boil down to denying women’s agency. It’s important for men to sleep with the women they want to sleep with. Anything less is unfair and immoral. On the other hand, women’s sexual preferences don’t matter, and when they experience rejection, it doesn’t hurt.
How can someone who calls for empathy be so fastidiously devoid of it?
Some-time reader, first time poster, annoyed into posting.
@Gandy
I honestly don’t believe (anymore) that you are here to discuss things in good faith, seeing how many points you’ve blatantly ignored, but I’ll bite.
“I appeciate that it seems we have to draw some distinctions between the economic and personal realms, but essentially this seems like a restatement of the ‘its okay to be racist, or pay women less, because its a matter of individual choice.”
You seem intent on comparing women not wanting to have sex with “ugly” (or nerdy) men to people being racist. Like the former is sort of looks-based discrimination that ails society.
Assuming for a moment that this is true (you certainly can’t seem to be convinced otherwise), let me tell you this:
There are many laws to protect people from racial discrimination. But not one of them forbids someone from rejecting another person sexually because of their race. Not one.
So by all means, if you think that “manlets” have a harder time getting jobs, etc., then start a campaign to introduce laws forbidding discrimination based on height, or something.
You still can’t lawyer people into having an obligation to have sex with you.
Other than that, there’s nothing that can be said beside “women are not objects that can be redistributed”, a point that you stubbornly ignore.
You can make an effort to change the public opinion regarding certain groups, like fat acceptance activists try to do, and it’ll remove some of the stigma that keeps people from dating within that group. You can’t force people to be attracted to/interested in a group though, only strip away cultural bias that might otherwise discourage them from pursuing people they’re actually into.
Complaining about “sluts”, wallowing in self loathing and lionizing murderers isn’t going to do anything to make you look good to those who may otherwise find you attractive or interesting, and it shouldn’t. Same goes for the idea of having sex with women to increase your bro-status, that’s a very toxic frame of mind, especially paired with the idea that women become inferior (“sluts”) by having sex.
Plenty of people have confidence or social skill troubles, but that doesn’t make them entitled to have sex with unwilling partners.
I’m still trying to catch up but I read this;
And that’s it folks! We have reached the end. It’s the Irony Death of the Universe.
@Alan Robertshaw
I did, pretty much, though on a larger scale–that he was compromising his own well-being for the sake of upholding a standard of toxic masculinity that caused him nothing but pain and disappointment. As you can probably imagine, he grew extremely defensive and angry at the suggestion. Ah well, I tried?
@Monopole
I hadn’t heard about that one before, maybe he’ll find that interesting since he’s such an anime fan. And that’s such a heartwarming story about your “origin story” with “Marty,” awww. I completely relate as a geek myself who married a geek.
@AltoFronto
I completely agree. I kind of loved his answer when I pointed out that his suicide threats were a silencing tactic–he replied that he wasn’t trying to silence me, he genuinely meant that he wanted to kill himself. Well yeah dude, not only is that the exact thing you would say if you meant to silence me, but if you’re being genuine then it’s all the more effective at shutting me up.
I am reaching that point, yeah. We have some common interests and had fun conversations, and I have some sympathy for how troubled and self-loathing this guy is. However I’d be enabling him, not being his friend, if I let him treat me like crap. He’s said he’d find it painful to lose me. Well tough, then he should have treated me like a person and not like his personal echo chamber.
No, it is NOT. And you are repeating yourself ad nauseam, which is not a good way to make your case, because you plain-and-simply don’t HAVE one. Do you seriously believe that nauseous repetition will convince anyone that the government must force unwilling women to have sex with men they simply don’t want? That if you repeat your lie often enough, it will magically morph into truth, and the people you think are “blind” will magically see? I can assure you it won’t, and the reason I know that is this:
I used to be the female equivalent of an “incel”. IN MIDDLE AND HIGH SCHOOL, please note. It’s an awkward age, and it’s hard on those who look like I did: Not blonde, not “hot”, therefore not a person in the eyes of the guys. Worse, I had frizzy hair and glasses. Worst of all, I was a brain with zero interest in sports. And just to provide the rotten cherry on the shit sundae, I was an introvert who didn’t know how to fake extroversion. Total unperson status, in short. So, no boyfriends. Not even one measly date until my last year of high school, and that was with a guy I didn’t want to date. To his prom. No one from our school asked me to ours. But since I was in no position to be so picky, and it was better to go and be bored than be remembered as the nerdy loser who didn’t, I went. And had a dreary time.
Now, by “incel” reckonings, that should mark me as a loser for life. Burn down the world if it won’t give you what you want? I’d be lying if the thought hadn’t crossed my mind a couple of times. I dismissed it because I knew it was ridiculous and wouldn’t do me any good. Guys who don’t want you when there’s no fire raging around them aren’t going to want you any more when the whole world is burning down around their ears. On the contrary, they’re just going to think you’re a bigger fucking loser than ever. Especially since you plan to kill masses of people just because you couldn’t get a stinkin’ date to your own stinkin’ prom.
Same goes for hot chicks, dude.
But you know what? Eventually, I quit worrying so much about whether the “cool” kids would ever like me. I went to university and started to put the dumbth of middle and high school in perspective. I began to make friends and socialize in my own way, and eventually, I found myself a number of boyfriends. I had sex. I joined the ranks of the normals. And it wasn’t a bad place at all, nor did I have to become a complete phony in order to be there. All I had to do was grow into my looks (which turned out to be quite lovely even if they don’t meet any silly arbitrary supermodel standard) and lighten up a bit. And actually TALK TO THE GUYS. In a normal manner.
Guys can do the same thing; they have only to WANT to do it. Same as I did. I changed because I WANTED to do it. And I didn’t have to ask the whole world to rearrange itself just so I could get laid!
And remember, this is coming from a socialist. Someone who believes in “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”. But sex is inapplicable to that, because (a) contrary to what you say, it’s NOT a basic need, it’s just a want, and (b) as I said before, it is NOT A FUCKING COMMODITY. You cannot treat sex as a mere economic transaction because there’s the simple fact that people have desires — WOMEN ARE PEOPLE TOO — and you cannot dictate who should desire whom. There is no “equitable distribution of sex”. Tastes vary. Libidos vary. People want whom they want, and if two people don’t want each other, or if one wants but the other doesn’t, well, sex ain’t gonna happen. Too bad. That’s life! I couldn’t expect the cool guys to like or even accept me in high school, so why are you saying women should just “provide” sex to whoever wants them, whether they themselves want that guy or not? Ordinary guys can’t seriously expect a supermodel to fall willingly into their laps with no effort on their part, and nothing special about them that would convince her to take chances with them. They have to actually somehow demonstrate that they are worth getting to know. Same as I had to do with guys! Merely not burning the world down isn’t enough. Every person who’s not a mass murderer passes THAT very low-bar test, after all.
For good measure, I’ll post links to a couple of articles I’m familiar with, just off the top of my head.
Gender and Sexual Economics: Do Women
View Sex as a Female Commodity?
(I hope that link works, it looks like HTML Salad in my browser cause it’s a pdf download link)
From the abstract:
And my favorite, that I can’t find an online link to right now (the authors have tons of research in this field, so look them both up if you’re curious).
Eagly, A. H., & Wood, W. (2005). Universal sex differences across patriarchal cultures ≠ evolved psychological dispositions. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 28, 281-283.
As you can tell from the title, it debunks the “sex differences = innate” myth and concludes that if you account for patriarchal social differences (especially gendered economic inequality), sex differences basically vanish.
And another (it’s a little hard to read).
Is beauty in the eye of the beholder?
*crosses fingers that the blockquote/html mammoth doesn’t eat me*
@PPT
Okay, this is personal bias speaking and I’ve been debating whether or not I’m just overreacting, but screw it, if I don’t mention this and he lashes out at you further, I’ll never fucking forgive myself.
[Massive TWs: Rape and obscene abuse.]
Threatening suicide was how my rapist got me to acquiesce. Every time I said no, he’d grab the gun and hold it to his head until I gave in. I feel awful for saying this because the absolute last thing genuinely depressed people need is for their friends to cut them off, but if he was genuinely depressed, he wouldn’t be using suicide as a threat to manipulate and abuse you, so: This is a red flag. He is dangerous and only going to get worse. Run.
Ugh, I just noticed this.
What is the alternative to this? Forcing people to have sex with someone they don’t want to have sex with? Do you know what that’s the definition of? Rape. That is rape.
Your stance is immoral (not amoral, IMmoral).
Fall in a pit of legos FOREVER.
So, zie doesn’t actually deserve this, but I realized I missed something in my last response.
These two things are unrelated. Yes, my personal experience shows me that a person can learn social skills and can overcome certain difficulties.
This is completely different from generalizing people based on gender. I was not trying to prove that this is the case for all people. I was just saying that, with some work, it is possible.
@Gandyforeverandever
I don’t think anybody would deny that being shy and socially awkward, while also not being exceptionally physically attractive in the conventional sense, can make it difficult to find a partner, and this sucks pretty hard for anyone…
But the incel (or RedPill/PUA/etc.) worldview can go waaay beyond merely expressing a sort of frustration over this, and could be downright bizarre, delusional and, as we just saw, nihilistic.
I don’t think anyone could seriously believe that in the real world (you know, not in some Stereotypical-US-High-School-From-Hell) sexual relationships work in a way that is even remotely similar to how these people think they do – at least not anyone who’s not a total shut-in, terrified of real-life human interaction and thus working exclusively from assumption and prejudice while sitting behind a computer screen all day. Geeky, average-looking guys hook up all the time – these days more easily than ever, with geekyness not being much of a social stigma anymore. You only have to look around in the real world a little bit, to see that things cannot possibly as bleak and cruel as incels tend to believe. From what I saw, very few, if any of the most vocal incels are what one might call hopelessly ugly (at least as far as my hetero man-brain can tell me). It seems to me that the root of their problems is mostly some kind of serious social anxiety, on which they just managed to double down with an extreme form of misogyny or just plain misanthropic and sociopathic behavior after they’ve found their ways to the echo-chambers of the manosphere.
I wouldn’t deny that there might be some hypocrisy prevalent in our society regarding how we supposedly value personality and “inner beauty” against looks and base physical attraction – but to think that as a man you have to be real handsome, rich, or “alpha” to have any chance of ever having sex with the average woman takes a special kind of ignorance. And let’s not even try to imagine the twisted logic and “moral insanity” which could justify the kind of dehumanization and hatred of women (or just other people in general) that is common in these circles and which might even lead some guys to idolize mass murderers.
P.s: I’m not a native english speaker, so sorry if my language is a bit awkward sometimes…
I’m always a bit dismayed when people reduce human needs to those things required for physical survival. We also need social interaction, intellectual stimulation, emotional safety, and possibly spiritual growth (the acronym they taught us on the psych ward was SPIES – social, physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual). These things are all necessary. Man does not live on bread alone and all that.
That said, you know what isn’t on that list, Granby? Sex. While sex is certainly desirable for most people, it’s only a need in the sense that the body desires release occasionally, something you can accomplish with your hand.
I’ve been involuntarily celibate, and while my celibacy is now more of the voluntary nature (I find that sex outside of a romantic relationship has way too low of a reward to effort ratio) my singleness is involuntary, although given the neuroses I have over being single, it’s likely that having a boyfriend (or nbfriend) would be disastrous.
However, my response has not been to think that boys are horrible and evil for not dating me, it’s been to learn how to satisfy my need for deep personal connections with other people through my friendships. Is it a perfect solution? No, but it’s a hell of a lot more satisfying and rewarding than pining away after unattainable people.
Note to David: I’m using a different email, but it’s still the same Leum
@ej, Gandy
The self help industry is huuuge, and there are many many many books, seminars, courses, websites, podcasts and online videos chock full of advice on how to overcome social anxieties and issues. There are also many testimonies of people who worked on improving themselves and succeeded. It can be done and it often is.
And I’m damn tired of incels and Nice Guys saying “I just can’t help being [insert social problem here], all the ladies should desire me anyway! Waaah! Bitches be entitled!”
Gandy, puahater, any “incel” out there — What do you even want an actual human woman for, anyway? Since you don’t see us as fully human to begin with, wouldn’t you actually be happier with a robot simulation?
Also, and this is so petty I almost don’t want to bring it up, but why do you have to invent ridiculous jargon like “incel” to describe a perfectly normal aspect of the human condition otherwise known as “not getting laid”? “Incel” is NOT A THING. (And there is no such thing as a “2D woman” either. That is what is known as a CARTOON.)
Human sexual relationships are complicated. I can’t tell you why you, personally, can’t find the relationship you want, but I can tell you without any hesitation that stewing in your sense of entitled resentment is not going to help you out in any way. The only people who can stand to be around that are other people who want to wallow in the same stew. Whining about why other people won’t date you is never, ever, ever attractive.
But since you’re supposedly such big fans of evolution, you ought to realize, if it were actually true that only a tiny sliver of men ever got laid, the genes for other kinds of men would have gotten weeded out of the population by now.
“How familiar are with you with studies on gender difference? I ask because, well, you don’t seem very familar with them. I think the sensible conclusion now is that a large portion of gender differentiated behaviour is innate, with little to do with men are raised in a culture of ‘toxic masculinity’ or such. you seem to also take exception to the idea of ‘generalising’ about men per say, which I just find baffling. How on earth do you feel equipped to discuss political questions, talk about ‘MRAs’ talk about male culture, about ‘toxic masculinity’ if you feel unable to make any kind of generalisations about groups of people. ”
The nature vs. nurture argument has gone on forever and it is far from settled. My experience of 68 years on this earth convinces me that social conditioning is a much stronger influence that what genitals you happen to be born with, but obviously there have been many studies that “prove” just about whatever you want to believe. The problem with sociological studies is that it’s desperately hard to eliminate confirmation bias, and some “researchers” are quite comfortable with results that support whatever prejudice they had going in to the study.
In my view, the sensible conclusion is that, until society stops putting extreme pressure on people to conform to established sex roles, I’m going to lean toward the assumption that most (though possibly not all) gendered personality differences are due to social conditioning.
I am just catching up to the thread. Wow – so much to touch on!
First, aren’t a lot, if not most, of these dudes libertarians? In my experience, whenever topics of equality for PoC and women come up, they say they abhor identity politics. Everyone just enters the ring and it’s all a bunch of individuals engaging in society at their own risk and taking their responsibilities.
If they are engaging in “identity politics” (I hate that expression, but it’s the one they use), is there a stable incel identity? I mean, besides not having sex? It seems to me that individual men are either getting turned down by individual women or imagining that they would be turned down because slutty slutty sluts, doncha know. There is no conspiracy of bitches trying to take down… whatever it is that the incel identity is. (Conspiracy of Bitches – great name for band or album!)
To those calling themselves “incels”:
Quite honestly, I’m a little bit resentful of the way the world works too.
That’s the thing–I am not a conventionally attractive woman and I have a fairly prickly personality at times, one which is not a caregiver personality (and thus considered EXTRA unattractive in a woman), and yet I was always told to “be yourself, people will love you just the way you are.” This is flagrantly untrue. “Myself” is not cuddly. “Myself” is frequently written off as bossy because “myself” doesn’t especially want to hold hands, talk about feelings and be everybody’s mommy.
However, I still don’t blame anyone else that I’m still single. I’m not entitled to have someone be attracted to me. I don’t hate men; I tend to make friends with men more easily than women, actually.
It’s perfectly possible to be angry at the way American society works (it does favor conventionally attractive, tall white rich male cis-het people and that sucks) WITHOUT BLAMING AN ENTIRE GENDER.
My situation is not the fault of either men or women.
Consider that yours may not be, either.
Yikes. Gandy, you just get creepier and creepier, huh?
Stop trying to mansplain. You look like a fool. As someone with a degree in psychology, I can tell you that no, there has not been overwhelming amounts of research that supports your contention that the male and female brains are vastly different. I know you won’t follow this recommendation, but I suggest you read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. It explains very well what the problem with these claims are. Two big ones being that brain imaging is expensive so research involving it tends to be plagued by small (very small) sample sizes. Also people treat boy and girl babies differently starting the day they are born. Babies absorb information early on, well before they are able to talk. Since gender roles are ingrained so early, it’s very difficult separate innate from socialized behavior.
It’s also laughable that you’re so certain that women don’t want casual sex. Many do. Unfortunately, misogyny stops us from engaging in it a lot of times. I don’t just mean slut shaming. Because of the prevalence of violence against women, which incels celebrate, we are often afraid to be alone with men we don’t know. We have to be somewhat picky because our safety depends on it. I haven’t had sex in a while even though I’d like to. I could probably find a willing partner online in a heartbeat. But so many men treat women as objects. I don’t seek out the casual sex I would like to have because guys you are out there and you scare me. Good job!
Candy, all I read in your posts was “Women should be forced to have sex with men they aren’t attracted to.” Now fuck off, rapist.
Honestly, each time an incel meanders over here, going, “Why don’t you care how lonely we are? Where’s your compassion? All we want is a companion; to know romantic love; to develop a just society, where those stuck-up bitches better fuck us, or else-”
@Bina:
“Aaaaand Aunt Edna wins the thread. Let me know where you want the box of kittens, ma’am.”
Oh, Bina… (blush) You really don’t have to. But oh, ok: By the front door, on the back porch — wherever, really; I’m not picky. (And puppies are welcome too.)
Thank you. 🙂
I’m just catching up with this thread, ever so slowly, and have gotten to Puahater’s personal post where he describes his “relationship” that concluded in that “selfish harpy” (paraphrased) “breaking his heart, just like Andreas Lubitz’ GF did.”
Sigh.
This evokes an “I can’t even” response in me, because it is pretty much THE standard storyline on all MRA / redpillian / etc. sites. And that standardization comes from the MRA / redpillian / etc. shared and seriously skewed perceptions of the world, rather than from reality itself.
Puahater, like all redpillians, is utterly incapable of critical self-examination and empathy — two traits the lack of which distinguishes redpillians et al. from the rest of humanity the most. The wise dictum, “We don’t see things as they are, but as we are,” applies to MRA / redpillians in an inordinate measure. Their egocentrism is simply staggering and I don’t think changeable (though I’d hope to be wrong on this).
Others took apart his comments very well, as usual, so no need to repeat any of that. I’d just add that what we are learning about Lubitz paints a rather familiar (but not helpful to MRA / redpillian agendas) picture.
Lubitz was not an incel. He had a steady, years-long GF — pregnant with his child now, as it turns out — whom he finally drove away with his erratic, self-centered, and controlling behavior. It seems she put up with him for a long time, until she no longer could (I’m sure the redpillian version of this would go something along “the b**** sucked him dry and dumped him for alpha fux”).
Meanwhile, as it is being reported, he had a months-long affair with another young woman –the one with whom he allegedly shared his unspecified plans for making a name for himself in some grandiose way — who also became frightened of his unpredictable behavior and called it off. So, 1. no incel woes, 2. who broke whose heart there, really?
MRA / redpillian / et al gross misperceptions of reality make them notoriously unreliable narrators, not only of other people’s stories, but also, and most of all, their own.
I’m a woman who’s been single for longer than I’d care to admit. Yet it doesn’t occur to me think that men are evil or that they should be forced to be with me. I’m able to recognize that it’s because I’m on the shy side, my social circle are all coupled off so I don’t meet a lot of single men, and I just plain haven’t tried, haven’t put myself out there. I can see that it’s because I have issues I haven’t worked out. I wasn’t cheated by society. That’s because women are socialized to believe that if we’re having dating trouble, there’s something wrong with us. Men are socialized to believe that if they have the same troubles, there’s something wrong with everyone else. A little critical thinking would make you a lot less miserable.
Exactly. Same here.