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Internet incels celebrate Andreas Lubitz, the alleged killer co-pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525, as a "legitimate SLAYER" and an "incel hero"

The New Incel Hero: Neither an incel nor a hero
The New Incel Hero: Neither an incel nor a hero

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Sluthate’s “shitty advice” forum, devoted to discussing such high-minded topics as “Do fat women have dirtier vaginas?” and “why is rape bad,” is a haven for embittered “incels” — self-described “involuntary celibates” — who’ve convinced themselves that they are too objectively unattractive and un-alpha to attract attention from the cruel and superficial “sluts” of the world — a category that seems to include all the women they find attractive.

Back when the forum was known as PUAhate, it was a regular hangout of one especially embittered incel, a young man known as Elliot Rodger, who last year killed six in Isla Vista California, and then himself, in what he called his “Day of Retribution” against women. Many of Sluthate’s regulars, unsurprisingly, have embraced “ER” as a kind of incel martyr.

Now they’ve found a new and improved hero: Andreas Lubitz, the troubled co-pilot who, French officials say, deliberately flew Germanwings Flight 9525 into a mountain in the French Alps.

In a topic entitled BREAKING: Co-pilot was incel and crashed the plane!!!, Sluthate regulars have embraced Lubitz as “one of them” — and are enthusiastically celebrating his alleged mass murder as the possible beginning of a “Beta uprising.”

“New high score, and in a much shorter time too,” a commenter calling himself gobman3000 wrote happily. “Damn, legitimate SLAYER.”

Alienfranco was even more enthusiastic:

What a fucking SLAYER.

Did you ever know that you’re my hero? You are the wind beneath my WINGS. …

Why go out with a whimper when you can go out with a BANG? An incel killing 150+ people will make a lot more of an impact than killing 1 asshole or a few assholes.

A large percentage of the 150+ people on that plane were sluts and Chads anyway.

Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels and give us $2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.

OmegaKV noted that many of the passengers on the plane “were teenagers who were vacationing,” concluding

This was DEFINITELY an incel motivated plane crash.

He couldn’t take it too see so many good looking and happy teenagers with gfs, experiencing the adolescence he always longed for but never got, so took advantage of the perfect opportunity to kill himself while taking the teenage normalfags with him.

PuaKiller agreed:

Yeah. He definitely knew what he was doing. I can only imagine what he was feeling in that moment. Wow. …

This one is going in the hall of fame!

Largely dismissing the news reports suggesting that Lubitz did, in fact, have a girlfriend, the regulars examined each new picture of the alleged mass murderer that appeared in the media for telltale signs of his incel status.

PJ1 was brutal in his assessment:

-looks like a manlet from his proportions. I’d honestly be surprised if he’s over 5 10

-small frame

-critical balding

-beta face

OldRooster1 agreed:

guy does look like an incel manlet that came to the realization that the status of being a pilot was not enough to overcome his 3.5/10 looks/body.

“Look at that frame, he’s about 60kg soaking wet,” Jigar added. “I’d be surprised if his wrists were a hair over 6 inches thick.”

Still another commenter labeled him a “betafaced framecel” — whatever that is — and “the kind of guy that’s INVISIBLE.”

These are harsh assessments, to be sure, and in some cases seem to have virtually no connection with the photographic evidence, but the Sluthate regulars tend to be equally harsh in their assessments of themselves. Thread-starter Zark_Muckerberg, for example, attaches a sig to each of his posts quantifying his romantic and sexual failures:

gfs: 0
kisses: 0
handjobs: 0
blowjobs: 0
intercourse: 0

Having convinced themselves that they will never be able to have a life equal to that of the world’s “good looking and happy … normalfags,” the Sluthaters feel Lubitz’ pain — or, at least, the pain they imagine he felt.

Flawed Mentat blamed the killings on an uncaring world that didn’t deliver Lubitz  the “good woman” he deserved.

HE did not fire the first shot. Women and Society, blase, branded HIM as non human, invisible, an object of scorn and laughter. So, when it sunk in that all his effort was in vain, there were no good women awaiting him, life was gonna be just as empty, lonely and horrifying as before he even started training as a pilot, well, he probably logically decided to declare war back on the human race, since it was open in its war on him.

ThereIsNoGame agreed:

Just lol @ reddit comments saying how creepy it is that he didn’t think about the lives of all the people he killed.

Yeah, well what about all the people who never gave a fuck about him. He was probably treated like shit over and over again.

Society never looks itself in the mirror when it is to blame.

Don’t treat people like shit and shit wont happen. Why is that so hard to understand? 

He ended his comment with this chilling warning-cum-threat.

looks like more people will need to die until the message is drilled in.

Zygominati directed his ire at a familiar target:

I blame feminism for this. In days gone by pilots would flirt with stewardesses and pinch their arses. They would leave their hotel room ajar for layover shenanigans. Now they are bus drivers in the sky that can’t even take a shit. This incel was probably sold a dream and after countless hours of flight time realised there is nothing there.

Meanwhile, the few Sluthaters who didn’t utterly dismiss the news reports of Lubitz having a girlfriend seized on the reports that the two had broken up — and blamed the girlfriend for “cucking” him. As Patriarch put it,

If its true that his girlfriend cucked or dumped him, just imagine how smug this entitled shitcunt must feel like right now. Looking at him, she was a 4 at best but now she gets her own little fairytale drama story and she gets to go on TV and talk about how awful she feels and how she never expected this to happen. In the aftermath, a bunch of whiteknights will whiteknight her into oblivion and probably donate a million € to her fundme so she can learn to deal with this tragedy…. Fucking feminist shitcunt society

It goes without saying that all of these embittered rants are based almost entirely on projection. We know very little about Lubitz, or what might have motivated him to (allegedly) crash the plane, killing 149 innocent human beings and himself.

While news reports suggest that he had suffered from depression and from some other mental illnesses as yet unnamed, these revelations raise more questions than they answer. Depression can certainly contribute to suicide, but mass murder? Mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence than victimizers.

While it seems clear that Lubitz was not literally an “incel” — he apparently did have a girlfriend —  it’s certainly possible that he crashed the plane because he was upset over a breakup with that girlfriend, or angry at women in general.

That’s not a conclusion we can draw based on looking at Lubitz’s “waist-hip-ratio” or the size of his wrists. It’s a possibility we can raise based on our understanding of how murder/suicides unfold in the real world.

As I pointed out yesterday, murder/suicide is overwhelmingly a male crime, and the victims are often wives, girlfriends or exes. Breakups often trigger rage in men, and a few take this rage out on the women they feel have wronged them. Or, in extreme cases, on women in general. The intended targets of Elliot Rodger’s rampage were what the “spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut[s]” in a local sorority. (Luckily, he was barred at the door and his plan collapsed.)

But even if Lubitz was driven by “incel rage” or something much like it, it’s worth pointing out that this rage is  based on bullshit. Elliot Rodger was not objectively unattractive; his problems with women came from within, from a mixture of embittered entitlement, self-hatred and an assortment of other psychological demons.

Similarly, the rage of Sluthate’s incels is driven not by the actual behavior of women in the real world but by their fucked-up ideas about women — and themselves. Sluthaters hate themselves as much as they hate “sluts,” and project their own hyper-critical assessments of their own looks onto the women they think are perpetually judging them and finding them wanting. Ironically, they themselves view women with the same hyper-critical eyes, dismissing all but a handful of young, conventionally attractive women as “fugly hambeasts” and the like.

Sluthate reinforces a poisonous and supremely self-defeating way of looking at the world. Whether or not Lubitz was driven by “incel rage,” I think we have every reason to worry that Sluthate and other internet forums devoted to “incels” may be breeding more “heroes” like Elliot Rodger and, possibly, Andreas Lubitz.

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Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
5 years ago

@Gandyforeverandever

“Isn’t it just plainly more likely that a certain segment of the population, probably mostly male, are just very undesirable mates, to the extent that their lives are quite unpleasant, without possessing any particularly morally negative qualities.”

Oh, they’re undesirable mates all right. You think they can hide their seething hatred of women when they’re around women? Hating women as a whole and cheering on men who kill women is morally negative, sorry.

“I don’t know – isn’t that all a bit too convenient, like how the poor guy who complains about wealth inequality clearly is only poor due to his personal failings”

Yes, it’s all the system’s fault! If only we could have some kind of Incel Welfare System, and supply every incel with a girlfriend. Or maybe institute some kind of minimum fucks per year setup for incels. Because women are things that men are entitled to.

“I think we need to start recognising the importance of looks – and the ugliness of our own motivations when it comes to choosing a mate.”

Because what would women know about being judged on their looks?

” Whats’ the deal with the left doing this for things like looks or other components of sexual attraction?”

ooooooh you got us lefties, we’re so hypocritical, thinking that women and men should be allowed to choose who they get involved with romantically and sexually, instead of being forced or shamed into dating people they’re not attracted to just because it’s not fair that some incel isn’t getting his dick wet on the regular.

“Doesn’t anyone see something problematic with highly successful people such as David Futrelle talking, you know, about people who in all honesty are probably in the midst some of those who live some of the worst lives around in the West.”

Yeah, being single and wanting a partner is the worst thing in the West ever. At least cancer sufferers aren’t incel, damn it.

Orion
5 years ago

I think that puahater, unlike indole, is probably a sock puppet. Hell, maybe he’s MRAL. I doubt he’s an actual incel, or if so that he really buys what he’s saying. I will just note that if we accept his definition of “chad” — a chad is an athlete taller than 6′ — it’s basically impossible for that flight to have been full of nothing but chads.

Catalpa
Catalpa
5 years ago

like how the poor guy who complains about wealth inequality clearly is only poor due to his personal failings, because only someone with a bad personality/work ethnic would think to complain about wealth disparities?

Your comparison is a faulty one, because money is something that is a requirement in our society to obtain physical needs, like food and shelter. Sex is not a need, and people will not die if they do not get it.

Furthermore, asking for, oh, I don’t know, minimum wage to be an actual living wage doesn’t infringe on anyone’s bodily autonomy. Demanding that there’s an equal distribution of blowjobs/sex, regardless of women’s say in the matter, does.

Finally, feminists don’t get pissy when people bring up the idea that we live in a society where unattainable looks and body types are held up as a standard to which we should all conform. Feminists don’t like body shaming or body policing. These guys, however, instead of seeking out ways to change societal outlooks on physical appearance, stew in rage and misogyny and bitterness while lauding and encouraging people who are literal mass murderers. And that is wrong. I cannot emphasise how wrong that is and how awful the sluthaters are.

sb77
5 years ago

Gandyforeverandever, your argument falls apart when you consider the reality that most ugly men still manage to have sex. The left recognizes structural inequality based on income, sex and race because it exists. There is no such structural inequality against ugly men.

Self-proclaimed incels feel they should be allowed to sleep with any woman they want, and that women choosing who they want to sleep with is a grave injustice. It isn’t so much their own looks that they are hung up on, but their lack of ability to control women.

Their scapegoating of “alphas” has more in common with reactionaries targeting various groups for abuse than jealousy about looks. After all, not everybody with the stereotypical “alpha” personality is conventionally handsome.

Finally, it’s such a one-sided view of things. Do they think that they owe ugly women sex, and that they should be forced to comply if a woman they don’t find attractive want to sleep with them? Of course not. Because, to them, women aren’t people with needs, feelings or desires.

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

@Gandyforeverandever

I think we need to start recognising the importance of looks – and the ugliness of our own motivations when it comes to choosing a mate. You know, the left has long acknowledged the double blow that the disadvantage suffer, when those with privilege don’t only get to enjoy the advantages their privilege gets them, but then get to use their powerful position to ensure everyone believes that their privilege doesn’t exist, or is somehow related to their personal merits. The first step to doing anything is to be like, yup, okay, i’m white, i’m rich, i’m clever — and those things are clearly undeserved – you don’t warrant being worse off than me. Whats’ the deal with the left doing this for things like looks or other components of sexual attraction?

I was slightly stunned when I learned about the manosphere via this blog and discovered that some men inexplicably think people deserve, earn, are given and/or rewarded with a sexual or romantic partner for being a good person aka “personal merits”. It’s not some hidden gynocentric bluepill conspiracy that people in free societies voluntarily form sexual and romantic relationships that benefit themselves in a variety of ways. The reasons are endless, from physical attraction, status, companionship, shared interests, sexual compatibility, emotional compatibility, social convention, religious obligations, etc. This seems so ridiculously obvious to me I feel a bit silly typing it out.

I can assure that girls generally learn very early in life that how others view and grade their physical looks will greatly and often ruthlessly effect their lives in numerous ways. I assumed boys picked up on that as well.

It would be grand if everyone had heaps of personal happiness, but you have to be remarkably obsessed with individualistic concerns if you’re an adult who’s shocked that other people aren’t actively hard at work to make that happen for you in particular. The Left is a mishmash that tries all sorts of ways addresses both collective needs to make a fairer, more equitable world in terms of economics, social roles and political systems and individual needs in terms of personal freedoms. That doesn’t however include getting you personally laid.

All incels care about themselves and themselves alone, obsessively to the point that the entire world is made of guys they believe are exactly like themselves and everyone else, all of whom are either cruelly ignoring them, mocking them and/or actively fucking them over instead fucking them.

about people who in all honesty are probably in the midst some of those who live some of the worst lives around in the West.

There are no doubt unhappy but their own lives on feel like the “worst” in the West because that’s the only life that matters to them. Goddamn guys, go read Camus or something and shake off that adolescent solipsism.

I think the obession sluthaters have with looks stems from, like, the sort of obession those in poverty have with money.

The fact that you think result of poverty is a lot of people obsessed with money the way horny adolescent boys are obsessed with sex is pretty telling. Redpill pseudo-philosophy is pathetic in part because the only economics that matter are personal dating costs and hypothetical future marriage assets. It’s also pathetic because it involves no real understanding of the consumer culture that shapes and dominates our lives in the West. It’s also also pathetic for a whole slew of other reasons.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Am I given to understand that puahater thinks that women are evil and trying to enslave men if they want to go someplace nicer than McDonald’s on a date but in a post too repugnant to be let through, he thinks the government should force women to give me sex?

Which leads me to you gandy, after reading that do you really want to still say we’re the ones who are hypocrites?

If you two would actually open your eyes and look at the world around you, you’d notice that a lot of guys who are short, stocky, scrawny, geeky,whatever, are in happy relationships. Not usually with Victoria’s Secret models, but still.

You also need to ask yourselves why the incel community seems to be exclusively male and cishet. Hint: privileged entitlement and misogyny might have something to do with it. I’m a woman who’s been single for longer than I’d care to admit. Yet it doesn’t occur to me think that men are evil or that they should be forced to be with me. I’m able to recognize that it’s because I’m on the shy side, my social circle are all coupled off so I don’t meet a lot of single men, and I just plain haven’t tried, haven’t put myself out there. I can see that it’s because I have issues I haven’t worked out. I wasn’t cheated by society. That’s because women are socialized to believe that if we’re having dating trouble, there’s something wrong with us. Men are socialized to believe that if they have the same troubles, there’s something wrong with everyone else. A little critical thinking would make you a lot less miserable.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

In that first paragraph it should say “give men sex” not “give me sex.”

That’s quite an unfortunate typo!

proxieme
proxieme
5 years ago

Self-proclaimed incels feel they should be allowed to sleep with any woman they want, and that women choosing who they want to sleep with is a grave injustice. It isn’t so much their own looks that they are hung up on, but their lack of ability to control women.

>snip <

Finally, it’s such a one-sided view of things. Do they think that they owe ugly women sex, and that they should be forced to comply if a woman they don’t find attractive want to sleep with them? Of course not. Because, to them, women aren’t people with needs, feelings or desires.

QFT.

There are women out there who would sleep withe them, who would be THRILLED to be in relationships with them regardless of their looks or cashflow…as long as they can get past being lazy* assholes.

* I include “lazy” because I have known several guys who have said that women have broken up with them because they “weren’t rich” when the truth was closer to “because they didn’t get off of their computer long enough to bathe, let alone interact IRL”.

StarStorm
5 years ago

Goddamn, Puahater’s material is funny. What can I say, it reads like a parody of their bullshit… but then it becomes less funny when I realize these people actually believe this bullshit and I can’t tell for certain if they actually believe it.

Well, there goes my good mood.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

I don’t know – isn’t that all a bit too convenient, like how the poor guy who complains about wealth inequality clearly is only poor due to his personal failings

I’m gonna join the others here who’ve already taken this apart, and say you’re comparing apples to oranges. Socialism is a politico-economic philosophy; it doesn’t allow for distribution of sex, equitable or otherwise, for the simple reason that SEX IS NOT A COMMODITY. I figured I’d allcaps that so you don’t miss the message. WOMEN ARE NOT COMMODITIES EITHER. Know why that is? Because NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO ANOTHER PERSON, OR SEX WITH ANOTHER PERSON. SEX IS NOT AN ENTITLEMENT.

I guess what I’m really trying to say here is, yeah, when it comes to romantic failure, these guys’ attitudes are a HUGE part of the problem. They all want perfect partners, who apparently have no wants or needs or desires of their own. They think they deserve gold stars and free sex, presumably provided by government-pimped prostitutes, not for burning the whole world down, for fuck’s sake. And then they wonder why all the women edge away from them when they open their mouths and this shit comes out? How the hell is this NOT their own fault?

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Ugh…”not for burning the whole world down” should read “for NOT burning the whole world down”.

This PUAhate idiocy is so full of shit that it’s messing with my syntax.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

Orion – you’re not the only one: my MRALdar was pinging like mad when I read Puahater’s comments.

Is there a single “incel” cliché that he didn’t include? Or present entirely uncritically?

And why would anyone want to join someone who at the very least appears to be a blatant sockpuppet? Call me weird, but I prefer my revolutionary activists to display more genuine conviction.

Gandyforeverandever
Gandyforeverandever
5 years ago

Okay, so from the responses to my post I think i’ve gotten two themes:

Firstly, that even if one admits that incels disadvantage causes them a huge deal of pain, it doesn’t count as a political issue because, well, its to do with sex, its like women choosing to avoid them which we’ve just got to accept even if its totally unfair/for amoral reasons

I appeciate that it seems we have to draw some distinctions between the economic and personal realms, but essentially this seems like a restatement of the ‘its okay to be racist, or pay women less, because its a matter of individual choice.

the second seems to be that, well, that the incels problems aren’t really that significant:

I can’t imagine you really believe this??! After food, water, housing and so on, sexual/romanatic relationships are probably the most crucial area of somebodies life! surely you can appreciate how much utter rejection in this regard must hurt? Take a second to step into their shoes. God, this really is parallel to a rich guy telling with a good job and prospects telling people that poverty isn’t so bad cause he was poor once in college.

And finally, just a restatement of the idea that it MUSSST be Sluthaters awful personalities which cause women to reject them! Eh? If we admit looks and more amoral standards of personality matter, and some people have really awful looks, then, like, I don’t know, it just stands to reason some people will really have a hard time in dating. I think this is logically worse for men for a number of reasons:

1. men desire short term sex significantly more than women, and their status is significantly more determined by this.

2. Women are more ‘picky’ – and can, at least for short term affairs, score above their ‘level.’

3. In terms of the affects of personalities, it seems well established that ‘nerdy’ males tend to do worse with women than men of other personality types. I don’t think there is such a significant deficit for nerdy females (men may prefer non nerds, but don’t seem to be attracted to the same type of social skills which women like from men, which nerds don’t have.)

So all this stands to reason there is really often going to be a subset of men who just really, really struggle with this sort of shit. and that is an issue which just does plainly has moral weight.

sb77
5 years ago

Gandy, I’ll ask you directly: can you imagine a woman that you would turn down if she wanted to sleep with you?

If the answer is “yes,” how is it less unfair/amoral than a woman choosing not to sleep with a man?

You’re views reduce women to props, to resources that should be distributed more equally among men.

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

“1. men desire short term sex significantly more than women, and their status is significantly more determined by this. ”

How do men know how strongly women desire short term sex? Couldn’t it be that women are just more likely to be shamed for having such desires and so they don’t mention it as much? And why is men’s status tied to having sex? Could it be…toxic masculinity?

How is “people don’t wanna sex me” a moral issue? Is it immoral to only have sex with those you want to?

ej
ej
5 years ago

After food, water, housing and so on, sexual/romanatic relationships are probably the most crucial area of somebodies life! surely you can appreciate how much utter rejection in this regard must hurt?

No. People can survive without sexual or romantic relationships. While those relationships can be very important, they are certainly not essential.

I find it interesting that you seem to think none of us have been rejected before. Rejection is a part of life. Everyone will be rejected at some point. It sucks when it happens, but you have two choices:
1. Pick yourself up, figure out what went wrong, and try again, or
2. Wallow in misery and self pity, blaming someone else for your pain.

You’re going to have much more success if you keep trying. Guess which route the Sluthaters take?

And finally, just a restatement of the idea that it MUSSST be Sluthaters awful personalities which cause women to reject them!

Yes. Have you seen the hateful comments from these guys? They constantly refer to women as “bitches.” They clearly have no interest in forming a meaningful relationship. If they talk to actual women like that (instead of just over the internet), it’s not a surprise that women avoid them. Most women don’t want to spend time with men who clearly don’t respect them.

1. men desire short term sex significantly more than women, and their status is significantly more determined by this.

Citation needed. You are talking about men as single, homogeneous group, rather than individuals who have their own opinions and preferences. Not all men want the same thing.

My boyfriend is a great example of the exact opposite of what you describe. We’ve been together for over two years and most of that time we have been living in different countries. If all men want is sex with as many women as possible, he certainly wouldn’t be putting in the time, money and effort to maintain this relationship.

2. Women are more ‘picky’ – and can, at least for short term affairs, score above their ‘level.’

Again, citation needed. You are now referring to women as homogenous group. Yes, some women are more picky about who they sleep with, but some aren’t. We are all individuals with our own desires and we should be free to make those decisions for ourselves, without your judgement.

Assigning people to levels is also a problem. People are complex. They’re not all going to fit in your predefined boxes.

3. In terms of the affects of personalities, it seems well established that ‘nerdy’ males tend to do worse with women than men of other personality types. I don’t think there is such a significant deficit for nerdy females (men may prefer non nerds, but don’t seem to be attracted to the same type of social skills which women like from men, which nerds don’t have.)

I think you are trying to say that nerdy men have a harder time dating than nerdy women. Again, you are generalizing these populations and basing your assumptions on stereotypes. Yes, differences in social skills may make dating more difficult for some people, but those are things that can be overcome. Many nerdy men find very fulfilling relationships with nerdy women, probably because they share similar interests that can be used as a foundation for that relationship.

TL;DR: Your ideas are unsupported and based on generalizations.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

I can’t imagine you really believe this??! After food, water, housing and so on, sexual/romanatic relationships are probably the most crucial area of somebodies life! surely you can appreciate how much utter rejection in this regard must hurt? Take a second to step into their shoes. God, this really is parallel to a rich guy telling with a good job and prospects telling people that poverty isn’t so bad cause he was poor once in college.

I have every sympathy imaginable for genuinely nice people who make real efforts to meet compatible partners and keep getting knocked back – indeed, a friend of mine is in that position right now, and I couldn’t be more supportive.

But I have no sympathy at all for the likes of Elliot Rodger and the guy who proudly boasted “Rejections: 0” because all the evidence suggests that they seriously expect sex to be handed to them on a plate without them making even the tiniest effort on their part. Sorry, but the real world just doesn’t work like that. You don’t ask, you don’t get.

And finally, just a restatement of the idea that it MUSSST be Sluthaters awful personalities which cause women to reject them! Eh? If we admit looks and more amoral standards of personality matter, and some people have really awful looks, then, like, I don’t know, it just stands to reason some people will really have a hard time in dating.

Of course. But even in that short paragraph you’re barking up the wrong tree. Success at dating has nothing to do with “more amoral standards” (seriously, this is a deeply, deeply toxic fiction that you really need to expunge from your worldview) – it’s to do with being pleasant company. It really is that simple.

And yes, if the dice were stacked against you in the looks department, that’s unfortunate – but that’s where being pleasant company is even more important. And this really, really isn’t difficult – you just need to master the basic social niceties of two-way conversation, being a good listener and gauging whether the person you’re with is actually interested in what you’re saying or just being polite. Talk to people, as opposed to at them.

I think this is logically worse for men for a number of reasons:

1. men desire short term sex significantly more than women, and their status is significantly more determined by this.

2. Women are more ‘picky’ – and can, at least for short term affairs, score above their ‘level.’

3. In terms of the affects of personalities, it seems well established that ‘nerdy’ males tend to do worse with women than men of other personality types. I don’t think there is such a significant deficit for nerdy females (men may prefer non nerds, but don’t seem to be attracted to the same type of social skills which women like from men, which nerds don’t have.)

So all this stands to reason there is really often going to be a subset of men who just really, really struggle with this sort of shit. and that is an issue which just does plainly has moral weight.

OK, another piece of advice: stop obsessing about “level” and “status”. We’re talking about one-to-one relationships. I genuinely couldn’t give two hoots about what the outside world thinks about my various partners – the only thing that ultimately matters to me is whether I like them (and of course vice versa, which is also pretty crucial).

What’s my “level” and “status”? I genuinely don’t have a clue. Hell, I don’t even know what I weigh right now, and I didn’t when I was last in the dating game (I didn’t even own any scales when I was living alone).

As for “nerdy” males, there have never been greater opportunities in the whole of human history for them to find like-minded partners. There really, really hasn’t. You just need to actively look for them, and stop obsessing about shallow and insignificant surface traits. Read some of the anecdotes here from women who fell in love with ultra-shy “engineer” types. Read more about women who tick the same boxes themselves.

In fact, read more about (and by) women generally – because much of the time I get the impression that these so-called “incels” have barely so much as glanced at a real-life woman, much less made an effort to get to know her. During my last significant dry spell in my early twenties, I spent much of it devouring women’s writing about sex, preferably detailed first-person accounts. And this was 25 years ago, when such things were harder and more expensive to track down than they are now – today, this couldn’t be easier. And in addition to learning huge amounts about women’s sexual responses (and their bewildering diversity), I learned a huge amount about what women actually wanted from their partners – which almost invariably boiled down to some very simple ingredients: being a good listener, having a good sense of humour, being reliable and being fundamentally decent (the last of which certainly doesn’t preclude having exotic sexual interests to be explored with a mutually consenting partner – the “decent” part derives from respecting what your partner does and doesn’t want to do).

In other words, pretty much the exact opposite to what sluthaters preach.

Feel free to ignore or belittle my advice, but it’s demonstrably been a damn sight more successful than nihilistic raging against “bitches” and “hos”. Not least because I ended up in a blissfully happy marriage with a woman who now (get ready to have your mind blown) earns more than I do. And not just slightly more: we’re talking around five or six times my income. And yet somehow she still stays with me, and I haven’t detected even the tiniest molecule of evidence that she’d like her life to be any different – and since she’s not exactly shy about being brutally honest (neither am I), I sincerely doubt that she’s just putting a brave face on things. And neither of us could care less what the outside world thinks because we’re the ones that are happy about our situation.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

[Even though this] disadvantage causes them a huge deal of pain, it doesn’t count as a political issue because, well, its to do with sex, its like women choosing to avoid them which we’ve just got to accept even if its totally unfair/for amoral reasons

I appeciate that it seems we have to draw some distinctions between the economic and personal realms, but essentially this seems like a restatement of the ‘its okay to be racist, or pay women less, because its a matter of individual choice.

http://mybroadband.co.za/photos/data/500/picard_facepalm1.jpg

Again you are comparing apples to oranges. Everyone is entitled to equal rights and fair pay. Those things are commodities and being made to share these things hurts nobody. What everyone is NOT entitled to is other people’s sex and bodies, because they’re NOT commodities! Instead people, including women, have the right to bodily autonomy – they get to choose who they share their physical beings with. This is not an injustice against incels! This is not a political issue! And just because it hurts the incels fee-fees to not be as popular with the women as they’d like, does not mean that women need to grit their teeth and endure sex they don’t want with someone who dehumanizes them. SEX IS NOT A HUMAN RIGHT. BODILY AUTONOMY IS.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

Gaaah – blockquote monster! My reply starts with “OK, another piece of advice” – the numbered list and “So all this stands to reason…” should also have been blockquoted.

Sorry about that.

Buttercup Q. Skullpants

Sex isn’t political. It’s not a finite resource that the “haves” are conspiring to keep from the “have nots”. That’s why all these calls for violence and revolution are ridiculous.

Maybe the problem is that you’re all playing the wrong game. You’re seeking validation through sex (and only sex with women that the community deems valuable, ie young, thin, conventionally attractive, etc.). You yourself said that “status is more significantly determined by this”. Why? Who is policing it?

What are you really looking for? If you’re just interested in sport-fucking and bragging rights, then yeah, unfortunately, you’re probably not going to be able to compete with good-looking, outgoing, confident guys. But in the long run, does that really matter? If these alpha guys are such assholes, why would you want to emulate them? Aren’t there better ways of feeling good about yourself that don’t involve treating women like disposable, alien objects? Why invest your entire self-worth in such a brutal, self-defeating paradigm?

If, on the other hand, you want a steady girlfriend, then you need to be up to the hard work of creating and sustaining a relationship. There’s a lot of give and take in relationships. You can’t approach it with the attitude of “what’s in it for me?” and decide you’re going to bail the moment the other person shows signs of having their own needs. You reap what you sow. If you want a caring girlfriend, then be a caring boyfriend and be willing to sacrifice occasionally and take her someplace other than McDonald’s, if that’s what she wants. Most girls aren’t looking to be uncomplaining sexbots in a relationship. That just isn’t realistic.

Also, you’re dead wrong about nerdy females having it easier than nerdy males. Nerdy females may not suffer under the self-imposed pressure to publicly prove they’re having sex, but they certainly do feel the agonizing pain of rejection, and the inadequacies of not measuring up to society’s beauty standards. Male nerds have options that female nerds don’t. Male nerd, and not good looking? Fine, go be funny or smart or talented or entrepeneurial or interesting. Female nerds? OMG WEAR A PAPER BAG OVER YOUR HEAD AND GO DIE YOU HIDEOUS LAND WHALE. Yes, women are “allowed” to be quirky, but only if they’re also hot.

If you’re really interested in a revolution, how about working to change society’s unrealistic expectations, instead of society itself? 149 dead bodies aren’t going to solve anything. The way to end your pain isn’t to create more pain.

Gandyforeverandever
Gandyforeverandever
5 years ago

sb77:

Of course, but, I mean, this is the classic question of political philosophy, which I think, most agree apon: actions which are individually permissable can add up to an important social ills.

Does my preference for black women make me an immoral person? But if everyone shared my preference, things would seem undoubtably ‘unfair’ towards white women.

Or, to reach for a more familar example, if nothing is wrong to give wilt chamberlain some money to see him play basketball, how can we oppose the inequalities in wealth that would occur if large numbers of people decided to act like me?

The fact is that, unfortunately, we live in a world where in many cases, choices which on an individual level seem totally okay can add up to a decidedly worse situation than if peoples’ choices were more constrained.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

EJ:

How familiar are with you with studies on gender difference? I ask because, well, you don’t seem very familar with them. I think the sensible conclusion now is that a large portion of gender differentiated behaviour is innate, with little to do with men are raised in a culture of ‘toxic masculinity’ or such. you seem to also take exception to the idea of ‘generalising’ about men per say, which I just find baffling. How on earth do you feel equipped to discuss political questions, talk about ‘MRAs’ talk about male culture, about ‘toxic masculinity’ if you feel unable to make any kind of generalisations about groups of people.

Of course, if you believed i was just making a hard case for something, that ALL men are like X and ALL women like Y, I mean, of course you’d be right to say that I was overgeneralising, but I don’t mean it like that at all.

And I mean stuff like ‘social skills deficiets can be overcome’ — where do you get that from?! You can’t just throw out these plattitudes and just expect people to be quiet! HOW do you know social skill deficits can be overcome? What studies have you read? Don’t tell me this belief comes from your own PERSONAL experience? You couldn’t possibly have written that a mere paragraph after you’ve laid into me for the totally unjustified/unrealistic generalisation that men just might happen to care more about casual sex than women!

Gandyforeverandever
Gandyforeverandever
5 years ago

oh also i apologise for my awful spelling/syntax, i have a bit of brain damage so i’m really bad at all this shit (no jokes please! :P)

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

Gandy, we have been repeating ourselves answering your posts and yet you are consistently ignoring our points and trying to make out that incels not getting laid is a problem society needs to address. It’s not. They are small in number and have only themselves to blame. Their stinking attitude towards women is what puts women off. They will not die without sex and it is not a human right. Them not getting any is most certainly not a “social ill” or comparable to racism, and no woman should ever be obliged to sleep with them, no matter how upset they get about sleeping alone at night.

These are truths. Real truths, not biotroofs. It’s as simple as we can make it and I for one am tired of having to explain things that anyone who doesn’t live in a cave on Mars should know.

Ellen
5 years ago

@Gandy,

Is it so hard to understand that society doesn’t owe you a girlfriend? Women don’t owe you sex, love, affection. What is so difficult to grasp here? I don’t get it.

brooked
brooked
5 years ago

I think this is logically worse for men for a number of reasons:

1. men desire short term sex significantly more than women, and their status is significantly more determined by this.

2. Women are more ‘picky’ – and can, at least for short term affairs, score above their ‘level.’

3. In terms of the affects of personalities, it seems well established that ‘nerdy’ males tend to do worse with women than men of other personality types. I don’t think there is such a significant deficit for nerdy females (men may prefer non nerds, but don’t seem to be attracted to the same type of social skills which women like from men, which nerds don’t have.)

FFS, you didn’t “logically” think these bullet points up yourself. I know that because every single incel parrots these exact same talking points endlessly. This includes the classic dismissal of women’s experiences with rejection, romantic disappointment and/or social failures. Incels like to pretend that these “facts” (psst, they’re not remotely factual) allow them to deflect all calls for sympathy or empathy towards women and to continue to focus solely on their own personal feelings, sexual frustration and/or festering bitterness.

can’t imagine you really believe this??! After food, water, housing and so on, sexual/romanatic relationships are probably the most crucial area of somebodies life! surely you can appreciate how much utter rejection in this regard must hurt? Take a second to step into their shoes.

FFS, in this thread, like every fucking thread with a solipsistic incel, there are women discussing their own romantic disappointments and social failures, all of which are completely ignored. Women are apparently not only responsible for incels’ misery, they’re also incapable of experiencing the depths of pain that are solely the purview of male incels.

Show me one example of an incel who “steps into the shoes” of women with any real amount of empathy. Hell, show me an example where they actually listen and genuinely ponder about what they heard. Show me an example where they consider the problems of people who aren’t men exactly like themselves. For instance, try to imagine the adolescence of a very unattractive girl or consider the life of a socially isolated and lonely elderly person. (Note: I know none of these things will happen.)

I’m giving up on trying yet again to explain the difference between actual deprivations, which involve things likes food, water, medical care, physical safety and shelter, and the lack of a significant other. It’s not like discussing romantic frustrations is verboten in modern American society, go check out the huge self help sections in bookstores. Social movements and political change don’t work at solving your personal relationship issues. Sorry dude, that’s up to you.

FFS.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Most of this has been covered rather excellently above; but my $0.02…..

“1. men desire short term sex significantly more than women, and their status is significantly more determined by this.”

[First part] In my experience, completely untrue. My happily single women friends are just as up for a bit of fun as myself and my single male friends. Some of my women friends are looking for (or more usually, in) long term relationships but I know plenty of men who are looking for, or have found, that special someone.

[Second part] You may be correct on this. Society as a whole can be much more judgmental of women who enjoy casual sex, whereas men are lauded for it (although, not always); but how’s that a plot by women to their advantage? At the risk of sounding like a Guardian editorial, that’s just an example of gender stereotyping and judging. Something, I am given to understand, that feminists tend not to be in favour of..

2. Women are more ‘picky’ – and can, at least for short term affairs, score above their ‘level.’

Possibly they are, but it’s almost a cliche that women are less concerned with physical attributes than men. A basic level of looking after yourself may ‘improve your chances’ (perhaps the odd shower, a bit of excercise maybe?) but on the whole, treating women with a bit of decency and respect, perhaps expressing the odd display of genuine interest, will get you much further than calling them bitches. If you do feel the need to manipulate women into liking you, instead of all the negging and begging, consider this saying:

“If you can make a woman laugh, you can make her do anything”

[Should clarify, not suggesting manipulating women is anything other than wrong]

“3. In terms of the affects of personalities, it seems well established that ‘nerdy’ males tend to do worse with women than men of other personality types. I don’t think there is such a significant deficit for nerdy females (men may prefer non nerds, but don’t seem to be attracted to the same type of social skills which women like from men, which nerds don’t have.)”

I can’t think of a better time to be a nerd. There’s been a definite shift in culture. I’m actually quite tall and keep in reasonable shape but I’ve had “Ooh, you look really cute when you wear glasses” quite a few times now. It may well be that “being able to fix a car” was/is a desirable trait; but you’re probably much better off being able to get a woman’s iBook working these days.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

Hmm, realised part of that comes across a bit knobbish. I’m not cute; just friends being kind!

ej
ej
5 years ago

@Gandy

From Ridgeway & Correll (2004)*:

There is increasing consensus among gender scholars that gender is not
primarily an identity or role that is taught in childhood and enacted in family relations. Instead, gender is an institutionalized system of social practices for constituting people as two significantly different categories, men and women, and organizing social relations of inequality on the basis of that difference

Gender is a result of how our society is currently constructed and how it functions, which means it is something we can change. Gender is not biologically defined, or do you deny the existence of transgender individuals?

Of course, if you believed i was just making a hard case for something, that ALL men are like X and ALL women like Y, I mean, of course you’d be right to say that I was overgeneralising, but I don’t mean it like that at all.

Except what you said was:

1. men desire short term sex significantly more than women, and their status is significantly more determined by this.

You said “men,” which implies all men are like this. You did not specify, so by your own definition you were overgeneralizing.

HOW do you know social skill deficits can be overcome?

I know that these things can be overcome because I was one of the people who overcame them. I used to be painfully shy, but I forced myself into social situations because I wanted to have friends and relationships. Sure, it was difficult and I made some embarrassing mistakes, but I learned from them and am now much better at social interactions.

I also find it very interesting that you ask me for references when you have yet to provide any of your own, even though I asked in my previous comment. Could you provide some of those references that say that gender is innate?

*Ridgeway, Cecilia L., and Shelley J. Correll. “Unpacking the gender system a theoretical perspective on gender beliefs and social relations.” Gender & society 18.4 (2004): 510-531.

sb77
5 years ago

Gandy, your reply is contradictory. You argue that choosing to sleep with certain people, while “individually permissible,” adds up to great “social ills,” and for this reason, sexual choices should be “constrained.” By this logic, your preference for black women would indeed be immoral.

Yet you find the idea that YOUR preferences should be constrained to be absurd. Why is that?

Again, it seems to boil down to denying women’s agency. It’s important for men to sleep with the women they want to sleep with. Anything less is unfair and immoral. On the other hand, women’s sexual preferences don’t matter, and when they experience rejection, it doesn’t hurt.

How can someone who calls for empathy be so fastidiously devoid of it?

BeyondOcean
BeyondOcean
5 years ago

Some-time reader, first time poster, annoyed into posting.

@Gandy

I honestly don’t believe (anymore) that you are here to discuss things in good faith, seeing how many points you’ve blatantly ignored, but I’ll bite.

“I appeciate that it seems we have to draw some distinctions between the economic and personal realms, but essentially this seems like a restatement of the ‘its okay to be racist, or pay women less, because its a matter of individual choice.”

You seem intent on comparing women not wanting to have sex with “ugly” (or nerdy) men to people being racist. Like the former is sort of looks-based discrimination that ails society.

Assuming for a moment that this is true (you certainly can’t seem to be convinced otherwise), let me tell you this:
There are many laws to protect people from racial discrimination. But not one of them forbids someone from rejecting another person sexually because of their race. Not one.

So by all means, if you think that “manlets” have a harder time getting jobs, etc., then start a campaign to introduce laws forbidding discrimination based on height, or something.
You still can’t lawyer people into having an obligation to have sex with you.

Other than that, there’s nothing that can be said beside “women are not objects that can be redistributed”, a point that you stubbornly ignore.

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

You can make an effort to change the public opinion regarding certain groups, like fat acceptance activists try to do, and it’ll remove some of the stigma that keeps people from dating within that group. You can’t force people to be attracted to/interested in a group though, only strip away cultural bias that might otherwise discourage them from pursuing people they’re actually into.

Complaining about “sluts”, wallowing in self loathing and lionizing murderers isn’t going to do anything to make you look good to those who may otherwise find you attractive or interesting, and it shouldn’t. Same goes for the idea of having sex with women to increase your bro-status, that’s a very toxic frame of mind, especially paired with the idea that women become inferior (“sluts”) by having sex.

Plenty of people have confidence or social skill troubles, but that doesn’t make them entitled to have sex with unwilling partners.

fromafar2013
fromafar2013
5 years ago

I’m still trying to catch up but I read this;

How familiar are with you with studies on gender difference? I ask because, well, you don’t seem very familar with them.

And that’s it folks! We have reached the end. It’s the Irony Death of the Universe.

PussyPowerTantrum
PussyPowerTantrum
5 years ago

@Alan Robertshaw

maybe ask him to at least consider that he’s being exploited by them?

I did, pretty much, though on a larger scale–that he was compromising his own well-being for the sake of upholding a standard of toxic masculinity that caused him nothing but pain and disappointment. As you can probably imagine, he grew extremely defensive and angry at the suggestion. Ah well, I tried?

@Monopole

I’d almost suggest pointing that guy in the direction of the various adaptations (movie, TV series, or two mangas) of “Train Man” (Densha Otoko)

I hadn’t heard about that one before, maybe he’ll find that interesting since he’s such an anime fan. And that’s such a heartwarming story about your “origin story” with “Marty,” awww. I completely relate as a geek myself who married a geek.

@AltoFronto

That is a shitty thing for him to do – threatening suicide in order to control people is emotional abuse and it is never ok.

I completely agree. I kind of loved his answer when I pointed out that his suicide threats were a silencing tactic–he replied that he wasn’t trying to silence me, he genuinely meant that he wanted to kill himself. Well yeah dude, not only is that the exact thing you would say if you meant to silence me, but if you’re being genuine then it’s all the more effective at shutting me up.

This guy is not being a friend to you. Not only are you not obligated to save him (nor are you likely to be able to), you’re not obligated to stay friends with someone who treats you like a toxic jerk.

I am reaching that point, yeah. We have some common interests and had fun conversations, and I have some sympathy for how troubled and self-loathing this guy is. However I’d be enabling him, not being his friend, if I let him treat me like crap. He’s said he’d find it painful to lose me. Well tough, then he should have treated me like a person and not like his personal echo chamber.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

I can’t imagine you really believe this??! After food, water, housing and so on, sexual/romanatic relationships are probably the most crucial area of somebodies life! surely you can appreciate how much utter rejection in this regard must hurt? Take a second to step into their shoes. God, this really is parallel to a rich guy telling with a good job and prospects telling people that poverty isn’t so bad cause he was poor once in college.

No, it is NOT. And you are repeating yourself ad nauseam, which is not a good way to make your case, because you plain-and-simply don’t HAVE one. Do you seriously believe that nauseous repetition will convince anyone that the government must force unwilling women to have sex with men they simply don’t want? That if you repeat your lie often enough, it will magically morph into truth, and the people you think are “blind” will magically see? I can assure you it won’t, and the reason I know that is this:

I used to be the female equivalent of an “incel”. IN MIDDLE AND HIGH SCHOOL, please note. It’s an awkward age, and it’s hard on those who look like I did: Not blonde, not “hot”, therefore not a person in the eyes of the guys. Worse, I had frizzy hair and glasses. Worst of all, I was a brain with zero interest in sports. And just to provide the rotten cherry on the shit sundae, I was an introvert who didn’t know how to fake extroversion. Total unperson status, in short. So, no boyfriends. Not even one measly date until my last year of high school, and that was with a guy I didn’t want to date. To his prom. No one from our school asked me to ours. But since I was in no position to be so picky, and it was better to go and be bored than be remembered as the nerdy loser who didn’t, I went. And had a dreary time.

Now, by “incel” reckonings, that should mark me as a loser for life. Burn down the world if it won’t give you what you want? I’d be lying if the thought hadn’t crossed my mind a couple of times. I dismissed it because I knew it was ridiculous and wouldn’t do me any good. Guys who don’t want you when there’s no fire raging around them aren’t going to want you any more when the whole world is burning down around their ears. On the contrary, they’re just going to think you’re a bigger fucking loser than ever. Especially since you plan to kill masses of people just because you couldn’t get a stinkin’ date to your own stinkin’ prom.

Same goes for hot chicks, dude.

But you know what? Eventually, I quit worrying so much about whether the “cool” kids would ever like me. I went to university and started to put the dumbth of middle and high school in perspective. I began to make friends and socialize in my own way, and eventually, I found myself a number of boyfriends. I had sex. I joined the ranks of the normals. And it wasn’t a bad place at all, nor did I have to become a complete phony in order to be there. All I had to do was grow into my looks (which turned out to be quite lovely even if they don’t meet any silly arbitrary supermodel standard) and lighten up a bit. And actually TALK TO THE GUYS. In a normal manner.

Guys can do the same thing; they have only to WANT to do it. Same as I did. I changed because I WANTED to do it. And I didn’t have to ask the whole world to rearrange itself just so I could get laid!

And remember, this is coming from a socialist. Someone who believes in “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”. But sex is inapplicable to that, because (a) contrary to what you say, it’s NOT a basic need, it’s just a want, and (b) as I said before, it is NOT A FUCKING COMMODITY. You cannot treat sex as a mere economic transaction because there’s the simple fact that people have desires — WOMEN ARE PEOPLE TOO — and you cannot dictate who should desire whom. There is no “equitable distribution of sex”. Tastes vary. Libidos vary. People want whom they want, and if two people don’t want each other, or if one wants but the other doesn’t, well, sex ain’t gonna happen. Too bad. That’s life! I couldn’t expect the cool guys to like or even accept me in high school, so why are you saying women should just “provide” sex to whoever wants them, whether they themselves want that guy or not? Ordinary guys can’t seriously expect a supermodel to fall willingly into their laps with no effort on their part, and nothing special about them that would convince her to take chances with them. They have to actually somehow demonstrate that they are worth getting to know. Same as I had to do with guys! Merely not burning the world down isn’t enough. Every person who’s not a mass murderer passes THAT very low-bar test, after all.

fromafar2013
fromafar2013
5 years ago

For good measure, I’ll post links to a couple of articles I’m familiar with, just off the top of my head.

Gender and Sexual Economics: Do Women
View Sex as a Female Commodity?

(I hope that link works, it looks like HTML Salad in my browser cause it’s a pdf download link)

From the abstract:

In the study reported here, data from implicit and behavioral choice measures did not support sexual economics
theory’s (SET’s) central tenet that women view female sexuality as a commodity. Instead, men endorsed sexual
exchange more than women did, which supports the idea that SET is a vestige of patriarchy. Further, men’s sexual
advice, more than women’s, enforced the sexual double standard (i.e., men encouraged men more than women
to have casual sex)—a gender difference that was mediated by hostile sexism, but also by men’s greater implicit
investment in sexual economics. That is, men were more likely to suppress female sexuality because they resisted
female empowerment and automatically associated sex with money more than women did. It appears that women are
not invested in sexual economics, but rather, men are invested in patriarchy, even when it means raising the price of
sexual relations.

And my favorite, that I can’t find an online link to right now (the authors have tons of research in this field, so look them both up if you’re curious).

Eagly, A. H., & Wood, W. (2005). Universal sex differences across patriarchal cultures ≠ evolved psychological dispositions. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 28, 281-283.

As you can tell from the title, it debunks the “sex differences = innate” myth and concludes that if you account for patriarchal social differences (especially gendered economic inequality), sex differences basically vanish.

And another (it’s a little hard to read).

Is beauty in the eye of the beholder?

The WHR is therefore an accurate indicator of health status and fertility, and male preference for low-WHR females is considered to be one of the best-supported examples of a sexually selected adaptation for assessing mate quality
2,3,8
.However, every culture tested so far has been exposed to the potentially confounding influence of western media.

WHR preferences of males in Yomybato differed strikingly from those of the US control population (Fig. 2) and from previous results
8–11.

But our results suggest that, when culturally isolated populations are taken into account, some supposedly invariant standards may prove malleable. As a result,many ‘cross-cultural’ tests in evolutionary psychology may have only reflected the pervasiveness of western media.

*crosses fingers that the blockquote/html mammoth doesn’t eat me*

M.
M.
5 years ago

@PPT

Okay, this is personal bias speaking and I’ve been debating whether or not I’m just overreacting, but screw it, if I don’t mention this and he lashes out at you further, I’ll never fucking forgive myself.

[Massive TWs: Rape and obscene abuse.]

It’s not like I’m obligated or even likely to “save” this guy, but I’ve known him for a long time and it hurts to have him attribute all this false evil to feminists knowing full well I’m a feminist, and then silencing me with anger or threats (he threatened to kill himself a couple of times when I criticized him) when I argue back.

Threatening suicide was how my rapist got me to acquiesce. Every time I said no, he’d grab the gun and hold it to his head until I gave in. I feel awful for saying this because the absolute last thing genuinely depressed people need is for their friends to cut them off, but if he was genuinely depressed, he wouldn’t be using suicide as a threat to manipulate and abuse you, so: This is a red flag. He is dangerous and only going to get worse. Run.

fromafar2013
fromafar2013
5 years ago

Ugh, I just noticed this.

women choosing to avoid them which we’ve just got to accept even if its totally unfair/for amoral reasons

What is the alternative to this? Forcing people to have sex with someone they don’t want to have sex with? Do you know what that’s the definition of? Rape. That is rape.

Your stance is immoral (not amoral, IMmoral).

Fall in a pit of legos FOREVER.

ej
ej
5 years ago

So, zie doesn’t actually deserve this, but I realized I missed something in my last response.

HOW do you know social skill deficits can be overcome? What studies have you read? Don’t tell me this belief comes from your own PERSONAL experience? You couldn’t possibly have written that a mere paragraph after you’ve laid into me for the totally unjustified/unrealistic generalisation that men just might happen to care more about casual sex than women!

These two things are unrelated. Yes, my personal experience shows me that a person can learn social skills and can overcome certain difficulties.

This is completely different from generalizing people based on gender. I was not trying to prove that this is the case for all people. I was just saying that, with some work, it is possible.

shighhopes
shighhopes
5 years ago

@Gandyforeverandever

I don’t think anybody would deny that being shy and socially awkward, while also not being exceptionally physically attractive in the conventional sense, can make it difficult to find a partner, and this sucks pretty hard for anyone…
But the incel (or RedPill/PUA/etc.) worldview can go waaay beyond merely expressing a sort of frustration over this, and could be downright bizarre, delusional and, as we just saw, nihilistic.
I don’t think anyone could seriously believe that in the real world (you know, not in some Stereotypical-US-High-School-From-Hell) sexual relationships work in a way that is even remotely similar to how these people think they do – at least not anyone who’s not a total shut-in, terrified of real-life human interaction and thus working exclusively from assumption and prejudice while sitting behind a computer screen all day. Geeky, average-looking guys hook up all the time – these days more easily than ever, with geekyness not being much of a social stigma anymore. You only have to look around in the real world a little bit, to see that things cannot possibly as bleak and cruel as incels tend to believe. From what I saw, very few, if any of the most vocal incels are what one might call hopelessly ugly (at least as far as my hetero man-brain can tell me). It seems to me that the root of their problems is mostly some kind of serious social anxiety, on which they just managed to double down with an extreme form of misogyny or just plain misanthropic and sociopathic behavior after they’ve found their ways to the echo-chambers of the manosphere.
I wouldn’t deny that there might be some hypocrisy prevalent in our society regarding how we supposedly value personality and “inner beauty” against looks and base physical attraction – but to think that as a man you have to be real handsome, rich, or “alpha” to have any chance of ever having sex with the average woman takes a special kind of ignorance. And let’s not even try to imagine the twisted logic and “moral insanity” which could justify the kind of dehumanization and hatred of women (or just other people in general) that is common in these circles and which might even lead some guys to idolize mass murderers.

P.s: I’m not a native english speaker, so sorry if my language is a bit awkward sometimes…

Leum
Leum
5 years ago

I’m always a bit dismayed when people reduce human needs to those things required for physical survival. We also need social interaction, intellectual stimulation, emotional safety, and possibly spiritual growth (the acronym they taught us on the psych ward was SPIES – social, physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual). These things are all necessary. Man does not live on bread alone and all that.

That said, you know what isn’t on that list, Granby? Sex. While sex is certainly desirable for most people, it’s only a need in the sense that the body desires release occasionally, something you can accomplish with your hand.

I’ve been involuntarily celibate, and while my celibacy is now more of the voluntary nature (I find that sex outside of a romantic relationship has way too low of a reward to effort ratio) my singleness is involuntary, although given the neuroses I have over being single, it’s likely that having a boyfriend (or nbfriend) would be disastrous.

However, my response has not been to think that boys are horrible and evil for not dating me, it’s been to learn how to satisfy my need for deep personal connections with other people through my friendships. Is it a perfect solution? No, but it’s a hell of a lot more satisfying and rewarding than pining away after unattainable people.

Note to David: I’m using a different email, but it’s still the same Leum

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

@ej, Gandy
The self help industry is huuuge, and there are many many many books, seminars, courses, websites, podcasts and online videos chock full of advice on how to overcome social anxieties and issues. There are also many testimonies of people who worked on improving themselves and succeeded. It can be done and it often is.

And I’m damn tired of incels and Nice Guys saying “I just can’t help being [insert social problem here], all the ladies should desire me anyway! Waaah! Bitches be entitled!”

mcjuliek
mcjuliek
5 years ago

Gandy, puahater, any “incel” out there — What do you even want an actual human woman for, anyway? Since you don’t see us as fully human to begin with, wouldn’t you actually be happier with a robot simulation?

Also, and this is so petty I almost don’t want to bring it up, but why do you have to invent ridiculous jargon like “incel” to describe a perfectly normal aspect of the human condition otherwise known as “not getting laid”? “Incel” is NOT A THING. (And there is no such thing as a “2D woman” either. That is what is known as a CARTOON.)

Human sexual relationships are complicated. I can’t tell you why you, personally, can’t find the relationship you want, but I can tell you without any hesitation that stewing in your sense of entitled resentment is not going to help you out in any way. The only people who can stand to be around that are other people who want to wallow in the same stew. Whining about why other people won’t date you is never, ever, ever attractive.

But since you’re supposedly such big fans of evolution, you ought to realize, if it were actually true that only a tiny sliver of men ever got laid, the genes for other kinds of men would have gotten weeded out of the population by now.

GrumpyOldMangina
5 years ago

“How familiar are with you with studies on gender difference? I ask because, well, you don’t seem very familar with them. I think the sensible conclusion now is that a large portion of gender differentiated behaviour is innate, with little to do with men are raised in a culture of ‘toxic masculinity’ or such. you seem to also take exception to the idea of ‘generalising’ about men per say, which I just find baffling. How on earth do you feel equipped to discuss political questions, talk about ‘MRAs’ talk about male culture, about ‘toxic masculinity’ if you feel unable to make any kind of generalisations about groups of people. ”

The nature vs. nurture argument has gone on forever and it is far from settled. My experience of 68 years on this earth convinces me that social conditioning is a much stronger influence that what genitals you happen to be born with, but obviously there have been many studies that “prove” just about whatever you want to believe. The problem with sociological studies is that it’s desperately hard to eliminate confirmation bias, and some “researchers” are quite comfortable with results that support whatever prejudice they had going in to the study.
In my view, the sensible conclusion is that, until society stops putting extreme pressure on people to conform to established sex roles, I’m going to lean toward the assumption that most (though possibly not all) gendered personality differences are due to social conditioning.

Scarlettathena
5 years ago

I am just catching up to the thread. Wow – so much to touch on!

First, aren’t a lot, if not most, of these dudes libertarians? In my experience, whenever topics of equality for PoC and women come up, they say they abhor identity politics. Everyone just enters the ring and it’s all a bunch of individuals engaging in society at their own risk and taking their responsibilities.

If they are engaging in “identity politics” (I hate that expression, but it’s the one they use), is there a stable incel identity? I mean, besides not having sex? It seems to me that individual men are either getting turned down by individual women or imagining that they would be turned down because slutty slutty sluts, doncha know. There is no conspiracy of bitches trying to take down… whatever it is that the incel identity is. (Conspiracy of Bitches – great name for band or album!)

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 years ago

To those calling themselves “incels”:

Quite honestly, I’m a little bit resentful of the way the world works too.

That’s the thing–I am not a conventionally attractive woman and I have a fairly prickly personality at times, one which is not a caregiver personality (and thus considered EXTRA unattractive in a woman), and yet I was always told to “be yourself, people will love you just the way you are.” This is flagrantly untrue. “Myself” is not cuddly. “Myself” is frequently written off as bossy because “myself” doesn’t especially want to hold hands, talk about feelings and be everybody’s mommy.

However, I still don’t blame anyone else that I’m still single. I’m not entitled to have someone be attracted to me. I don’t hate men; I tend to make friends with men more easily than women, actually.

It’s perfectly possible to be angry at the way American society works (it does favor conventionally attractive, tall white rich male cis-het people and that sucks) WITHOUT BLAMING AN ENTIRE GENDER.

My situation is not the fault of either men or women.

Consider that yours may not be, either.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

Yikes. Gandy, you just get creepier and creepier, huh?

Stop trying to mansplain. You look like a fool. As someone with a degree in psychology, I can tell you that no, there has not been overwhelming amounts of research that supports your contention that the male and female brains are vastly different. I know you won’t follow this recommendation, but I suggest you read Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine. It explains very well what the problem with these claims are. Two big ones being that brain imaging is expensive so research involving it tends to be plagued by small (very small) sample sizes. Also people treat boy and girl babies differently starting the day they are born. Babies absorb information early on, well before they are able to talk. Since gender roles are ingrained so early, it’s very difficult separate innate from socialized behavior.

It’s also laughable that you’re so certain that women don’t want casual sex. Many do. Unfortunately, misogyny stops us from engaging in it a lot of times. I don’t just mean slut shaming. Because of the prevalence of violence against women, which incels celebrate, we are often afraid to be alone with men we don’t know. We have to be somewhat picky because our safety depends on it. I haven’t had sex in a while even though I’d like to. I could probably find a willing partner online in a heartbeat. But so many men treat women as objects. I don’t seek out the casual sex I would like to have because guys you are out there and you scare me. Good job!

Cyberwulf
Cyberwulf
5 years ago

Candy, all I read in your posts was “Women should be forced to have sex with men they aren’t attracted to.” Now fuck off, rapist.

gelar
gelar
5 years ago

And I’m damn tired of incels and Nice Guys saying “I just can’t help being [insert social problem here], all the ladies should desire me anyway! Waaah! Bitches be entitled!”

Honestly, each time an incel meanders over here, going, “Why don’t you care how lonely we are? Where’s your compassion? All we want is a companion; to know romantic love; to develop a just society, where those stuck-up bitches better fuck us, or else-”

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

@Bina:

“Aaaaand Aunt Edna wins the thread. Let me know where you want the box of kittens, ma’am.”

Oh, Bina… (blush) You really don’t have to. But oh, ok: By the front door, on the back porch — wherever, really; I’m not picky. (And puppies are welcome too.)

Thank you. 🙂

I’m just catching up with this thread, ever so slowly, and have gotten to Puahater’s personal post where he describes his “relationship” that concluded in that “selfish harpy” (paraphrased) “breaking his heart, just like Andreas Lubitz’ GF did.”

Sigh.

This evokes an “I can’t even” response in me, because it is pretty much THE standard storyline on all MRA / redpillian / etc. sites. And that standardization comes from the MRA / redpillian / etc. shared and seriously skewed perceptions of the world, rather than from reality itself.

Puahater, like all redpillians, is utterly incapable of critical self-examination and empathy — two traits the lack of which distinguishes redpillians et al. from the rest of humanity the most. The wise dictum, “We don’t see things as they are, but as we are,” applies to MRA / redpillians in an inordinate measure. Their egocentrism is simply staggering and I don’t think changeable (though I’d hope to be wrong on this).

Others took apart his comments very well, as usual, so no need to repeat any of that. I’d just add that what we are learning about Lubitz paints a rather familiar (but not helpful to MRA / redpillian agendas) picture.

Lubitz was not an incel. He had a steady, years-long GF — pregnant with his child now, as it turns out — whom he finally drove away with his erratic, self-centered, and controlling behavior. It seems she put up with him for a long time, until she no longer could (I’m sure the redpillian version of this would go something along “the b**** sucked him dry and dumped him for alpha fux”).

Meanwhile, as it is being reported, he had a months-long affair with another young woman –the one with whom he allegedly shared his unspecified plans for making a name for himself in some grandiose way — who also became frightened of his unpredictable behavior and called it off. So, 1. no incel woes, 2. who broke whose heart there, really?

MRA / redpillian / et al gross misperceptions of reality make them notoriously unreliable narrators, not only of other people’s stories, but also, and most of all, their own.

acrannymint
acrannymint
5 years ago

I’m a woman who’s been single for longer than I’d care to admit. Yet it doesn’t occur to me think that men are evil or that they should be forced to be with me. I’m able to recognize that it’s because I’m on the shy side, my social circle are all coupled off so I don’t meet a lot of single men, and I just plain haven’t tried, haven’t put myself out there. I can see that it’s because I have issues I haven’t worked out. I wasn’t cheated by society. That’s because women are socialized to believe that if we’re having dating trouble, there’s something wrong with us. Men are socialized to believe that if they have the same troubles, there’s something wrong with everyone else. A little critical thinking would make you a lot less miserable.

Exactly. Same here.