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Internet incels celebrate Andreas Lubitz, the alleged killer co-pilot of Germanwings Flight 9525, as a "legitimate SLAYER" and an "incel hero"

The New Incel Hero: Neither an incel nor a hero
The New Incel Hero: Neither an incel nor a hero

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Sluthate’s “shitty advice” forum, devoted to discussing such high-minded topics as “Do fat women have dirtier vaginas?” and “why is rape bad,” is a haven for embittered “incels” — self-described “involuntary celibates” — who’ve convinced themselves that they are too objectively unattractive and un-alpha to attract attention from the cruel and superficial “sluts” of the world — a category that seems to include all the women they find attractive.

Back when the forum was known as PUAhate, it was a regular hangout of one especially embittered incel, a young man known as Elliot Rodger, who last year killed six in Isla Vista California, and then himself, in what he called his “Day of Retribution” against women. Many of Sluthate’s regulars, unsurprisingly, have embraced “ER” as a kind of incel martyr.

Now they’ve found a new and improved hero: Andreas Lubitz, the troubled co-pilot who, French officials say, deliberately flew Germanwings Flight 9525 into a mountain in the French Alps.

In a topic entitled BREAKING: Co-pilot was incel and crashed the plane!!!, Sluthate regulars have embraced Lubitz as “one of them” — and are enthusiastically celebrating his alleged mass murder as the possible beginning of a “Beta uprising.”

“New high score, and in a much shorter time too,” a commenter calling himself gobman3000 wrote happily. “Damn, legitimate SLAYER.”

Alienfranco was even more enthusiastic:

What a fucking SLAYER.

Did you ever know that you’re my hero? You are the wind beneath my WINGS. …

Why go out with a whimper when you can go out with a BANG? An incel killing 150+ people will make a lot more of an impact than killing 1 asshole or a few assholes.

A large percentage of the 150+ people on that plane were sluts and Chads anyway.

Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels and give us $2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.

OmegaKV noted that many of the passengers on the plane “were teenagers who were vacationing,” concluding

This was DEFINITELY an incel motivated plane crash.

He couldn’t take it too see so many good looking and happy teenagers with gfs, experiencing the adolescence he always longed for but never got, so took advantage of the perfect opportunity to kill himself while taking the teenage normalfags with him.

PuaKiller agreed:

Yeah. He definitely knew what he was doing. I can only imagine what he was feeling in that moment. Wow. …

This one is going in the hall of fame!

Largely dismissing the news reports suggesting that Lubitz did, in fact, have a girlfriend, the regulars examined each new picture of the alleged mass murderer that appeared in the media for telltale signs of his incel status.

PJ1 was brutal in his assessment:

-looks like a manlet from his proportions. I’d honestly be surprised if he’s over 5 10

-small frame

-critical balding

-beta face

OldRooster1 agreed:

guy does look like an incel manlet that came to the realization that the status of being a pilot was not enough to overcome his 3.5/10 looks/body.

“Look at that frame, he’s about 60kg soaking wet,” Jigar added. “I’d be surprised if his wrists were a hair over 6 inches thick.”

Still another commenter labeled him a “betafaced framecel” — whatever that is — and “the kind of guy that’s INVISIBLE.”

These are harsh assessments, to be sure, and in some cases seem to have virtually no connection with the photographic evidence, but the Sluthate regulars tend to be equally harsh in their assessments of themselves. Thread-starter Zark_Muckerberg, for example, attaches a sig to each of his posts quantifying his romantic and sexual failures:

gfs: 0
kisses: 0
handjobs: 0
blowjobs: 0
intercourse: 0

Having convinced themselves that they will never be able to have a life equal to that of the world’s “good looking and happy … normalfags,” the Sluthaters feel Lubitz’ pain — or, at least, the pain they imagine he felt.

Flawed Mentat blamed the killings on an uncaring world that didn’t deliver Lubitz  the “good woman” he deserved.

HE did not fire the first shot. Women and Society, blase, branded HIM as non human, invisible, an object of scorn and laughter. So, when it sunk in that all his effort was in vain, there were no good women awaiting him, life was gonna be just as empty, lonely and horrifying as before he even started training as a pilot, well, he probably logically decided to declare war back on the human race, since it was open in its war on him.

ThereIsNoGame agreed:

Just lol @ reddit comments saying how creepy it is that he didn’t think about the lives of all the people he killed.

Yeah, well what about all the people who never gave a fuck about him. He was probably treated like shit over and over again.

Society never looks itself in the mirror when it is to blame.

Don’t treat people like shit and shit wont happen. Why is that so hard to understand? 

He ended his comment with this chilling warning-cum-threat.

looks like more people will need to die until the message is drilled in.

Zygominati directed his ire at a familiar target:

I blame feminism for this. In days gone by pilots would flirt with stewardesses and pinch their arses. They would leave their hotel room ajar for layover shenanigans. Now they are bus drivers in the sky that can’t even take a shit. This incel was probably sold a dream and after countless hours of flight time realised there is nothing there.

Meanwhile, the few Sluthaters who didn’t utterly dismiss the news reports of Lubitz having a girlfriend seized on the reports that the two had broken up — and blamed the girlfriend for “cucking” him. As Patriarch put it,

If its true that his girlfriend cucked or dumped him, just imagine how smug this entitled shitcunt must feel like right now. Looking at him, she was a 4 at best but now she gets her own little fairytale drama story and she gets to go on TV and talk about how awful she feels and how she never expected this to happen. In the aftermath, a bunch of whiteknights will whiteknight her into oblivion and probably donate a million € to her fundme so she can learn to deal with this tragedy…. Fucking feminist shitcunt society

It goes without saying that all of these embittered rants are based almost entirely on projection. We know very little about Lubitz, or what might have motivated him to (allegedly) crash the plane, killing 149 innocent human beings and himself.

While news reports suggest that he had suffered from depression and from some other mental illnesses as yet unnamed, these revelations raise more questions than they answer. Depression can certainly contribute to suicide, but mass murder? Mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence than victimizers.

While it seems clear that Lubitz was not literally an “incel” — he apparently did have a girlfriend —  it’s certainly possible that he crashed the plane because he was upset over a breakup with that girlfriend, or angry at women in general.

That’s not a conclusion we can draw based on looking at Lubitz’s “waist-hip-ratio” or the size of his wrists. It’s a possibility we can raise based on our understanding of how murder/suicides unfold in the real world.

As I pointed out yesterday, murder/suicide is overwhelmingly a male crime, and the victims are often wives, girlfriends or exes. Breakups often trigger rage in men, and a few take this rage out on the women they feel have wronged them. Or, in extreme cases, on women in general. The intended targets of Elliot Rodger’s rampage were what the “spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut[s]” in a local sorority. (Luckily, he was barred at the door and his plan collapsed.)

But even if Lubitz was driven by “incel rage” or something much like it, it’s worth pointing out that this rage is  based on bullshit. Elliot Rodger was not objectively unattractive; his problems with women came from within, from a mixture of embittered entitlement, self-hatred and an assortment of other psychological demons.

Similarly, the rage of Sluthate’s incels is driven not by the actual behavior of women in the real world but by their fucked-up ideas about women — and themselves. Sluthaters hate themselves as much as they hate “sluts,” and project their own hyper-critical assessments of their own looks onto the women they think are perpetually judging them and finding them wanting. Ironically, they themselves view women with the same hyper-critical eyes, dismissing all but a handful of young, conventionally attractive women as “fugly hambeasts” and the like.

Sluthate reinforces a poisonous and supremely self-defeating way of looking at the world. Whether or not Lubitz was driven by “incel rage,” I think we have every reason to worry that Sluthate and other internet forums devoted to “incels” may be breeding more “heroes” like Elliot Rodger and, possibly, Andreas Lubitz.

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FatMax
FatMax
5 years ago

My condolences to posters who lost family and friends in the crash, first of all.
And my sympathy with the people with autism in here today (‘autists’? Is that a word?! Do they mean painters or sculptors or what?) Ignoring for now the complete lack of any proof that the murderer was autistic, it actually would have been pretty wonderful to celebrate a person with autism rising through the corporate ranks to make co-pilot (and one day pilot) for a major airline – not exactly a beta/omega line of work! A guy who traveled the world and ran marathons and yep, even had a loving girlfriend. But that is not to be.
But go explain facts to these Sluthate people. It’s been past time to stop treating these people like an amusing nuisance. It’s been time for a pre-emptive roundup, as one poster put it. It’s been time to lock them all up.

Monopole
Monopole
5 years ago

@PussyPowerTantrum
I’d almost suggest pointing that guy in the direction of the various adaptations (movie, TV series, or two mangas) of “Train Man” (Densha Otoko) which is explictly about an introverted Otaku navigating his way out of a vicious cycle of isolation with the assistance of internet friends (sort of the diametric opposite of the sluthate). Sort of of an otaku version of “Marty”. (“Marty” is quite important to me in that when my father saw it, he had a moment of self realization, leading to a program of self improvement which led to him meeting my mother. Without “Marty” I quite literally wouldn’t exist.)

The protagonist is awkward, shy, and qute average in appearance. He makes a lot of mistakes, and nearly gives up at several points, but ends up in a stable healthy relationship. As a well adjusted shy introvert otaku myself, the movie brought me to tears at quite a few points.

I’m always suprised by the MRAs and other mysogonists latching onto a very specific and pernicious chunk of otaku culture, while ignoring all of the positive stories, and the generally well adjusted American fandom.

Luna
Luna
5 years ago

I always thought “autist” was a clever pun combining the words “autistic” and “artist,” since I’m both.

Bina
Bina
5 years ago

Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels and give us $2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.

Uh, dude? THIS IS WHY YOU’RE NOT GETTIN’ ANY, YOU IDIOTIC BABOON TURD. YOU SCARE WOMEN OFF. YOU ARE NOT INVOLUNTARILY CELIBATE, YOU ARE WILLFULLY DISGUSTING. Nobody is gonna give you cookies for not running amuck.

(Sorry for the all-caps yelling, but it had to be said. I’ve had it with this idolatry of violence.)

Machine Gun Sally
Machine Gun Sally
5 years ago

Hmmm. Reading through later comments I realize I probably messed up in my earlier post. I probably should have said “autistic people”.

I am deeply sorry for my error!

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

And that’s why David’s post “When Men’s Rights Activists celebrate male rage, they make murder/suicides like the one that may have brought down Germanwings Flight 9525 more likely” is so important and right on target. That’s the context that some posters were missing.

Aerinea
Aerinea
5 years ago

No, they aren’t allowed to lump us autistics into their group. Trying to get people to fear us? WTF? Autism is already feared! People would rather risk their child dying of whooping cough or measles than have them be autistic. Many of us on the spectrum are actually working hard to stop people from fearing us.

Fuck.

And I have to read this bullshit right when I’m in the middle of helping support an autism acceptance campaign. Yes, autistic people can be violent, but it usually is because we’re completely overwhelmed and are not in control of ourselves. It’s terrifying from the inside. And honestly? Autistic people are more in danger of being the victims of violence than the perpetrators.

Sorry for the ASD rant, but this is a particular issue of mine.

Jenny (@dontgiveah00t)

“Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels”

That’s actually one of my greatest fears as someone on the autism spectrum. I hope it doesn’t come out that this guy was autistic.

THIS! Do these people not realize that when one autistic or mentally ill person commits horrific crimes, many of us feel the backlash and some of us can even be attacked or even killed by people who essentially say that they felt threatened by us. More likely, they don’t care. We don’t get paid, we get what rights we have restricted and taken away! Here’s the thing, even if it turns out that this (white) man was completely neurotypical, many people will refuse to believe that and argue that mental illness must be to blame.

Also, plenty of autistic people successfully handle romantic and/or sexual relationships. Some of us are even women, fancy that!

Sandy Lee
5 years ago

I’d like to leave some cheeky comment about the behaviour of MRAs on this thread, I really would. Normally that’s fairly easy: they’re usually whining with such incoherence and pettiness and breathtaking logical fallacies that the results can be entertaining, even hilarious.

This, though. There’s nothing funny or entertaining about this. This is sad and scary, and makes me think of how the “Trenchcoat Mafia” would have spoken to each other before Columbine, had 4Chan or social media been a thing back then.

Gives me the willies.

Binjabreel
5 years ago

… I’m baffled by all the things these guys list as “he can’t possibly get laid because these reasons”.

I have like most of them, and I don’t think I’ve ever gone longer than three months without a girlfriend unless it was by choice. Maybe, gosh!, it’s actually your repellant personality!

Nah, that can’t be it. I must actually be 6’2″ and have a full head of hair and have never been severely depressed or chronically un- or underemployed.

Binjabreel
5 years ago

Don’t mean to pick on some irrelevant detail with an irreverent joke, but trying to address the actual body of this leaves me with nothing to add but utter despair. And that they’d drag the autism spectrum into it is just beyond fucking reprehensible.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Binjabreel | March 27, 2015 at 11:42 pm
I have like most of them, and I don’t think I’ve ever gone longer than three months without a girlfriend unless it was by choice. Maybe, gosh!, it’s actually your repellant personality!

Because it’s never a problem with them or how they choose to act, it’s always something they have no control over! Like the width of their wrists or femicommunazi sluts! (All hail Katie)

Leum
Leum
5 years ago

I’m feeling afraid for a young online friend who started using incel language, about how unpopular men are the lowest life forms and how dare feminists judge him as a sexist shut-in for seeking the fantasy of 2D-women where 3D-women are unattainable. (The latter was in response to feminist critiques of his favored medium, anime. And yeah, I did a double take when I saw the term 2D and 3D women, since I recognized that term from this blog.) I tried to tell him that he doesn’t have to buy into conventional ideas about masculinity which are unhelpful and bogus, and then he got all shouty about how dare I call him evil (??) so… I don’t know. It’s not like I’m obligated or even likely to “save” this guy, but I’ve known him for a long time and it hurts to have him attribute all this false evil to feminists knowing full well I’m a feminist, and then silencing me with anger or threats (he threatened to kill himself a couple of times when I criticized him) when I argue back. Maybe I should cut ties after all, or tell him this is not something I’m comfortable discussing with him.

The incel rhetoric is really appealing to guys who find themselves, for whatever reason, single for protracted periods of time, particularly if they don’t have many female friends. Because I both am perpetually single and have anxiety about my self-worth related to being single, I’d actually have been ripe fruit for the plucking by these people if I hadn’t been gay and mostly made female friends.

Since your friend can’t become gay, knowing women and becoming friends with them (friends in the absolutely-not-going-to-date sense, not the Nice Guy friends-in-hope-of-sex sense) is probably his best hope of being pulled out of that mindset, particularly friends who are versed in feminism. Which isn’t to say you’re obligated to be his friend, but realizing that feminists in particular and women in general are humans is more likely to bring him out than anything else.

And feminism, I might add, is something that has helped me gain a sense of self-worth. Feminism has helped me to realize that dating, or not dating, doesn’t define my worth as a person or even give a sense of my value; that my relationships with my friends and family are no less valid than romantic or sexual ones. It’s not been total, I still have major anxiety over being single, but feminism serves as a major reality check on that.

lacerta viridis
lacerta viridis
5 years ago

They may be exquisitely hyperaware of physical features – they may think they can parse human beings right down to wrist size and hairline and height, and know all there is to know about them – but they are competely blind to the wretched black void that’s replaced their souls.

@Buttercup, that is such a flawless summary of everything about that forum. They’re just… so utterly bizarre and creepy. Like yes, I am so fucking sure it’s their wrist circumference that’s the problem, there is absolutely nothing else that could possibly be stopping them from forming meaningful relationships here.

@Linax5, I’m so sorry.

Tessa
5 years ago

lacerta viridis:

@Buttercup, that is such a flawless summary of everything about that forum. They’re just… so utterly bizarre and creepy. Like yes, I am so fucking sure it’s their wrist circumference that’s the problem, there is absolutely nothing else that could possibly be stopping them from forming meaningful relationships here.

I dunno… back in high school, this guy asked me out, and he had a really really low circumference wrist (I know, I always kept my trusty tape measure handy), and it totally turned me off men completely. I’ve been a lesbian ever since. True story.

misseb47
misseb47
5 years ago

What a fucking SLAYER.

Did you ever know that you’re my hero? You are the wind beneath my WINGS. …

Why go out with a whimper when you can go out with a BANG? An incel killing 150+ people will make a lot more of an impact than killing 1 asshole or a few assholes.

A large percentage of the 150+ people on that plane were sluts and Chads anyway.

Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels and give us $2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.

Yeah, I bet the family and friends of the 150 people killed would absolutely LOVE to hear someone refer to them as ‘sluts and chads’ and I bet they would just love to have their murderer celebrated as hero-NOT. These MRAs are absolutely disgusting! No respect or regard to the 150 innocent people who have been killed at all! No, all they care about is their poor boners! >:-( They really believe that having their boners pleased is more important than the lives of others. It’s unbelievable, but sadly it’s true.

misseb47
misseb47
5 years ago

Paradoxical Intention-*Raises her arm in the Femicommunazi salute* Hail Katie! XD

indole
indole
5 years ago

I am not denying how delusional some of the ideas sluthate users hold are, like their hatred of modern liberalism or “$2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.”, but if there’s one thing they get (mostly) right, it’s looks. Media, advertisement, videogames – they all portray a certain ideal of appearance that has to be met for one to be considered fully human. If by some minor chance a short, ugly actor manages to play a visible role (Michael Cera, Jonah hill) he will only serve as an object of ridicule. In such a looks-obsessed society, where anything you do is perceived differently based on how attractive you are, it is only fair ugly people will feel rejected and wronged. Being a long time sluthate-lurker I can assure you that they do not hate the fact that people find beautiful people attractive, they only hate the facade that society conceals this simple fact with. Sluthaters hate dishonesty, they hate that instead of admitting it is their looks that are the problem, other people say they need to become more confident, or work on their body language, or do something as minor as getting a haircut or changing clothes. This also works the other way – most people can’t accept that someone is successful not because of the way he acts, but because of what he is by merit of genetics. This is a type of a coping strategy – by thinking that you don’t need to be attractive to get attractive people to date you, you give yourself hope that this 500$ real social dynamics disk will allow you to create a harem of models. As you can imagine, it is very depressing to be hurt and hated by the same people who assured you they would never do such a thing, out of fear to seem shallow.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

misseb47 | March 28, 2015 at 1:41 am
Paradoxical Intention-*Raises her arm in the Femicommunazi salute* Hail Katie! XD

I’d like to think that the Femicommunazi salute is a princess wave.

Elbow, elbow, wrist, wrist~

http://media.tumblr.com/525348b2c15591f1e9a50ee8203e32dd/tumblr_inline_n6kgy9Saom1rsu209.gif

Spindrift
Spindrift
5 years ago

My life for Katie! “princess wave”

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

5’10 is exactly average height for a man, and happens to be the perfect height for my Beloved to be – the key to great hugs is correct nipple alignment, you see.

If all these “incels” have 6″ thick wrists, maybe it’s because they masturbate too much.

… And I’m mostly trying to focus on the levity, because everything else in this post is just too chillingly awful for me to deal with right now.

Linax5, I am so sorry for the loss of your friend.

AltoFronto
AltoFronto
5 years ago

@ PussyPowerTantrum

I don’t know. It’s not like I’m obligated or even likely to “save” this guy, but I’ve known him for a long time and it hurts to have him attribute all this false evil to feminists knowing full well I’m a feminist, and then silencing me with anger or threats (he threatened to kill himself a couple of times when I criticized him) when I argue back. Maybe I should cut ties after all, or tell him this is not something I’m comfortable discussing with him.

I am going to base my response on my months of reading Captain Awkward’s excellent advice:

That is a shitty thing for him to do – threatening suicide in order to control people is emotional abuse and it is never ok. This guy is not being a friend to you. Not only are you not obligated to save him (nor are you likely to be able to), you’re not obligated to stay friends with someone who treats you like a toxic jerk.

If you think there’s anything salvageable, and want to continue your relationship with him, you can shut down any incel-related conversation with a simple “please don’t discuss this topic with me”. or “I’m not comfortable talking about this, please change the subject”. Use this twice and then disengage (say “ok, bye”, and then log out). But this guy is being abusive to you already and so I personally don’t think he’s worth your time and emotional energy.

I hope that helps, PPT

fakecisgirl
5 years ago

It is truly amazing how eager to demonize autistic people MRAssholes are. I mean, it’s almost like a movement that’s based in misogyny, transexterminationism, white ‘supremacy’, and entitlement is totally ableist, too.

Gosh, next you’ll tell me that they’re in favor of violence…oh, wait.

Herbert West
Herbert West
5 years ago

I wish we could put all incels into a plane and crash it into the Himalayas.
They just waste oxygen and food.

sunnysombrera
5 years ago

Hey Herbert, let’s not wish death and violence on people. Even if they are Sluthate-ers. We’re above their level (by a long, long shot).

bodycrimes
5 years ago

Speculating about this terrible crime is a game anybody can play, because so little is known about the man at the centre of it.

I can speculate about his rage, too. He is a pilot in a society that worships credentials, but only if they’re done in the ‘right’ way, at the correct time. Despite getting his pilot’s license, he apparently couldn’t shake off his history as a steward – his colleagues even gave him a nickname, ‘Tomato Andi’, to reinforce the fact that he wasn’t a ‘real’ pilot.

It’s possible that the people around him saw him as a kind of jumped-up waiter and wouldn’t give him the normal respect accorded to a pilot. To someone who saw flying as their life, that could be devastating.

Of course, none of the above might have anything to do with what happened this week. All this speculation is worthless without more facts.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

@Buttercup, that is such a flawless summary of everything about that forum. They’re just… so utterly bizarre and creepy. Like yes, I am so fucking sure it’s their wrist circumference that’s the problem, there is absolutely nothing else that could possibly be stopping them from forming meaningful relationships here.

I’ve been married for thirteen years and I honestly didn’t have a clue what my wife’s wrist circumference was until I glanced at it just now.

This is the kind of thing people agonise about in their early-to-mid teens when their bodies are changing and they understandably worry about how they’re perceived visually, at least when set against accepted “norms”. I can’t remember when I decided that this just didn’t matter, but I hope it was well before I attained voting age. And I never for a millisecond thought that wrist circumference might be an issue, although I do remember being obsessed with my nose for an unhealthily long time. (No idea why, in retrospect.)

And the other thing that David flagged up, which also seems to be true of Elliot Rodger, is that these people make absolutely no effort at all. They’re so rabbit-in-headlights petrified of rejection that they don’t even try to make a move. But if you don’t ask, you don’t get. And sometimes if you ask, people say no, whether it’s broaching the subject of a quantity discount or a more emotionally loaded proposition. That’s life. Live with it.

I saw a so-called “incel” moaning online that he’d carried a torch for this woman for ten years, but she never reciprocated (like the bitch she was) – but I couldn’t tell if he’d even so much as hinted that he had feelings for her. I’m guessing not, because why the hell would you lust after someone that long if they’d spelled out at an earlier stage that this was a non-starter? I thought I was being pretty stupid doing that for eighteen months, but at least I plucked up the courage eventually. (She said no – devastating at the time, entirely reasonable in retrospect: I wouldn’t have said yes to me back then either. And she was very sweet about it too.)

Put bluntly, if you claim to be “incel” and you’ve never made even the most cursory effort towards getting laid, there’s nothing “involuntary” about your celibacy. It’s your conscious choice.

misseb47
misseb47
5 years ago

Paradoxical Intention-Awesome! I love that wave! *does the Femicommunazi Princess wave* Anyway, all hail Katie! XD

Sarah
Sarah
5 years ago

Ugh, I just can’t with this. Here’s a video of an African grey parrot declaring that her name is “Bond. James Bond.” (And I guess we know what movies are popular in her house!)

https://youtu.be/jTW1TphMGnQ

Kreator
Kreator
5 years ago

Hatred and self-pity are two very powerful emotions, they’re almost like a drug… and I should know, I’ve wallowed enough in the later already (never the former, though. To paraphrase, “there is nothing to hate except hate itself”). Couple that with a community that tells you they’re totally OK and provides you with handy excuses and rationalizations, and that can never end well, as these comments sadly demonstrate. You know, in many ways I’m pretty much like these guys, which honestly troubles me… I’m a white male nerd who’s had “0 gfs, 0 kisses, 0 handjobs, 0 blowjobs, 0 intercourse”… and 0 rejections, as Shalimar so accurately put it earlier, as I’ve never had the courage to ask a girl out. Worse than that, I’ve even walked away from women who gave me clear signs that they were into me, and I don’t mean that in a stalker-y “oh, she looked my way for more than a second, she totally has the hots for me!” way, I’m talking about women who actually went out of their way to engage me and get me to open up, but I just couldn’t do it. I dunno, I might be mistaken about their intentions, but at the very least they wanted to be friends, which can never be a bad thing (no, I wouldn’t have Nice Guy(TM)’d them; I’ve thought that was a shady technique even before I learned that the concept had a nickname. In fact, one of the reasons which sometimes drive me to avoid women is to prevent the possibility of that particular situation from coming up). Anyway, all this makes me wonder what would have happened if I had found their community while growing up. Would I have ended up a miserable wretch just like them, or would I have eventually walked away in disgust from their toxic beliefs? I’d like to think yes, but the opposite possibility is still disconcerting.

Ellesar
5 years ago

To any lurking ‘incels’ that might read this:

That photo of Lubitz shows a perfectly attractive man.
Your obsession with height and muscles and hair etc is simply a way of you not taking any responsibility for your behaviour which is offputting to girls and women.
A man with a girlfriend is not an ‘incel’.
Being a virgin is not some kind of disgusting disease.
I have 2 teen boys who are (as far as I am aware) hetero and completely inexperienced sexually. They are not eaten up with bitterness and blaming because they get on with their lives – they know that if they do not make an effort to meet girls then they are unlikely to get to know any intimately.

For goodness sake move away from those disgusting sites – they are poisoning you. Being a murderer is not heroic, hating women is not justified, and you will never EVER be happy if you buy into all that crap.

Ellesar
5 years ago

Kreator – I suspect that you would not have gone that way if you had family who loved you. I am guessing that these boys (and I do expect that most of them are under 20, judging by the way they express themselves) feel alienated from everyone, not just girls and women that they are attracted to. I honestly believe that if you have the love and support of at least a few family members this is not a road someone will go down, particularly if they are close to at least one female family member.

Kreator
Kreator
5 years ago

You know Ellesar, I think you’re absolutely right… Come to think of it I DO have the luck of having an awesome family after all, including a sister and plenty of female cousins with whom I’m close (and yes, male ones too, you incel lurkers). Thank you very much for the perspective.

oogenhand
5 years ago

Being autistic (I get a welfare check for that) made me bold enough in my teenage years to approach girls. I didn’t get laid, but I had nice conversations and didn’t get bitter.

Macha
Macha
5 years ago

“Put bluntly, if you claim to be “incel” and you’ve never made even the most cursory effort towards getting laid, there’s nothing “involuntary” about your celibacy. It’s your conscious choice.”

No, no, no. this is the wrong thinking.

Look at movies, A super-pretty model-like girlfriend should just walk into their life and make all the effort! That’s how it works in movies, and incels are ready for that!

But mean women just don’t do that. So clearly, their celibacy is involuntary. Think before posting!

(the above is obviously dripping with sarcasm, but that seems to be what many of them actually think…)

Macha
Macha
5 years ago

” I honestly believe that if you have the love and support of at least a few family members this is not a road someone will go down, particularly if they are close to at least one female family member.”

You’re luckier than I am. I know multiple examples of the opposite personally.

Miss Andry
5 years ago

I can only imagine what they would have said about Ted Bundy. Oh wait, maybe he was too “alpha” for their liking. Sluthate is where humanity goes to choke and die.

sb77
5 years ago

I wrote about this in another thread a couple of months ago, but when I was younger, I had quite a few incel traits.. Unlike many incels, however, I had lots of female friends, and unlike all incels, I considered myself a feminist from a very young age.

Despite this, I was convinced for years that no woman would ever be interested in me, and I was pretty despondent about it. This stemmed from an extreme social awkwardness and lack of confidence, one that I still; struggle with. And sometimes, to this day, I find myself speculating that my spouse of ten years couldn’t possibly really like me, because why should she?

The thing is, I know it’s my problem, and one that only I can deal with. As a feminist, I abhor the common incel “wisdom” that women exist for no reason other than to provide sex for men.

Unfortunately, our broader culture – despite what MRA idiots say – is still extremely misogynistic. Without having been exposed to feminist ideas, or at least having had the chance to be friends with women, men who identify as incels are attracted to the idea that their problems aren’t their own. They internalize the idea that women are objects that exist to make them happy, and respond with anger when life doesn’t work that way.

To lurking incels: start thinking of women as people. It won’t cure your shyness or fear of rejection, but it will at least give women a reason to want to talk to you. Try befriending some women – sincerely, not as a tactic in some childish “game” – or you’ll always be an incel.

To everybody else: Hi. I’ve posted here a couple of times but never introduced myself.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

Hatred and self-pity are two very powerful emotions, they’re almost like a drug… and I should know, I’ve wallowed enough in the later already (never the former, though. To paraphrase, “there is nothing to hate except hate itself”).

I’m sure the vast majority of us have. I know I have.

Couple that with a community that tells you they’re totally OK and provides you with handy excuses and rationalizations, and that can never end well, as these comments sadly demonstrate.

And thankfully, that’s what I didn’t have. Although I’m pretty certain that if I’d had today’s social media in my teens and early twenties that I’d have used it in a far more constructive way. There are opportunities to hook up with people available now that were unimaginable to me thirty years ago. Hell, I met my wife online back in the days when this still seemed weird, and there’s not even the tiniest possibility that we could have met any other way – we lived 70 miles apart and had no common friends or hangouts.

You know, in many ways I’m pretty much like these guys, which honestly troubles me… I’m a white male nerd who’s had “0 gfs, 0 kisses, 0 handjobs, 0 blowjobs, 0 intercourse”… and 0 rejections, as Shalimar so accurately put it earlier, as I’ve never had the courage to ask a girl out. Worse than that, I’ve even walked away from women who gave me clear signs that they were into me, and I don’t mean that in a stalker-y “oh, she looked my way for more than a second, she totally has the hots for me!” way, I’m talking about women who actually went out of their way to engage me and get me to open up, but I just couldn’t do it. I dunno, I might be mistaken about their intentions, but at the very least they wanted to be friends, which can never be a bad thing.

Indeed not. And I’ve been in your situation – I turned down someone who may well have been genuinely interested in me, but she made the fatal mistake of asking someone else to convey this interest. He duly passed on her phone number, but I never rang it.

It’s very very likely that she picked this guy as an intermediary purely because she knew him and he went to the same school as me, but unfortunately I couldn’t stand him and didn’t trust his motives at all. Possibly wrongly – who knows?

(no, I wouldn’t have Nice Guy(TM)’d them; I’ve thought that was a shady technique even before I learned that the concept had a nickname. In fact, one of the reasons which sometimes drive me to avoid women is to prevent the possibility of that particular situation from coming up).

Women can tell the difference between genuinely nice guys and Nice Guys™. Hell, anyone with even the merest smidgen of social awareness can, which is one of the reasons why Nice Guys™ are often such miserable failures when it comes to dating.

Anyway, all this makes me wonder what would have happened if I had found their community while growing up. Would I have ended up a miserable wretch just like them, or would I have eventually walked away in disgust from their toxic beliefs? I’d like to think yes, but the opposite possibility is still disconcerting.

You sound far too self-aware for that. The mere fact that you recognise that their beliefs are toxic and that you appreciate the difference between nice guys and Nice Guys™ suggests that. So I really wouldn’t worry.

proxieme
proxieme
5 years ago

It’s heartening to hear stories from you guys who had incel-like tendencies but who avoided that path for whatever reasons.

Lurking Incels: You’re not irremdeemable and repulsive. You’re a person.
Try to connect with women (or men, etc – though tbh I’ve only heard about straight CIS Incels so far) primarily as other people.

You might be young and/or socially awkward, but it gets better if you give it a chance.

*goes to find relevant article*

proxieme
proxieme
5 years ago

Incels amd Incel-inclined guys –

I heard this a while back and my first thought (really) was that it might be helpful to some of you:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/01/16/377239011/by-making-a-game-out-of-rejection-a-man-conquers-fear

Nitram
5 years ago

I really hate how every time there’s a mass murder, all anyone can talk about is the murderer, and his name goes down in history just like he wanted. Meanwhile, the victims’ names are all but forgotten. Can anyone remember one victim’s name from sandy hook? But we all know the murderer and everything about him. Just ranting. I’m guilty of this too, don’t mean to sound accusatory.

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
5 years ago

If by some minor chance a short, ugly actor manages to play a visible role (Michael Cera, Jonah hill) he will only serve as an object of ridicule.

Ah yes, that poor Michael Cera. Whom girls only ridicule.

Oh wait, that Michael Cera? The two movies I’ve seen him in (Juno, Scott Pilgrim), he was the romantic lead. In Scott Pilgrim two girls were fighting over him. Yeah. He’s soooo ridiculed.

Yes, our society is awfully shallow sometimes. Men and women feel a lot of pressure to conform to a particular look, and that’s not good. But out in the real world, “ugly” people find love and get laid allllllllll the time. If you give yourself a chance, you’ll often find that other people will give you a chance, too.

Funny story, I once worked with a guy who I actually thought was pretty attractive, smart, and funny. However, I was dating someone at the time and was pretty invested in that relationship, so I never said anything about it. Anyway, that relationship ended and I found myself on an online dating site, and this coworker messaged me there. His message was actually kind of disparaging, something like “it’s so funny finding people I know in real life on these things and seeing how different they are online”.

And I checked out his profile and it was filled with things I later found to be MRA/incel crap. Like complaints about how no one would ever date him because of his “whr” (waist-hip ratio — I had to look it up, as apparently he thought this acronym was self-explanatory).

Here’s a pro-tip: I don’t want to date someone who preemptively accuses me of being too shallow to ever want to date them. And I think most people are like me in that.

Jarnsaxa
Jarnsaxa
5 years ago

Man, I really wish mental illnesses were normalized. Like “Remember that ski trip we took last year?” “Oh, the ski trip… no, I missed that, I had depression that month, remember?” “Oh right. We skyped you every night.” “I’m just glad it went away after two months with counseling. Now I know what to watch for if it happens again.”

or “My depression’s acting up, would you mind reassuring me a little bit?” “Sure! You’re fun to be around, we go out of our way to hang out with you, and you’re awesome at your job and killer at knitting. Wanna play some videogames together?”

(Only using depression as an example because that’s what I have.)

More like it was mono or pneumonia or a bad cold or cancer. A normal thing to have, a thing lots of people get, with varying degrees of severity and for varying lengths of time.

davidknewton
davidknewton
5 years ago

I read the thread on sluthate, just unable to believe how terrible these people are. Have you seen the Fifth Element where near the end Leeloo looks up WAR on Wikipedia and breaks down completely? That’s about what the last ten minutes of my life have been like. It’s horrifying beyond words that there are people who think this way – not just eager to blame women in general for a tragedy, but the obvious racism (doesn’t he look Turkish?) and… everything is so discouraging, knowing that no matter how much progress the world makes there will be people like this.

And yes, one of the most bizarre obsessions that isn’t outright offensive is the way they judge men based on the ratios of their waist, hips and shoulders like they’re fucking showhorses.

Scarlettathena
5 years ago

@deniseeliza –

When I read these bizarre rants, I wonder what they make of all the ugly and fat people in relationships and especially who have reproduced. And add to that, what do they make of all the (yuck) old people who are in relationships and express (ew) affection in public, like holding hands? The things is, if we’re lucky, we get older, and that tends to mean a host of body changes like more girth, loss of hair, wrinkles, saggy parts.

If they’re so upset by short, ugly actors being ridiculed, do they even notice the pudgy (not even necessary obese) woman who will invariably be the spunky sidekick? Usually, never to find love, but if she does, it’s always with a man who is her mirror double, whereas all manner of nerdy and (in my view) unattractive male characters get paired with attractive females.

For one thing, these dudes need to get it through their thick skulls that movies are usually fiction and even non-fiction is filtered through the perspective of a director. I love me some movies, but a lot is supposed to be escapist fantasy not a blueprint for your life.

Actually I had a similar experience to Deniseeliza on a dating site about 15 years ago. A guy sent me a message that started out “I bet you won’t go out with me…” His long letter described how attractive he was and how much money he made. Now, I’m a college professor with a PhD and I stated in my profile that I was interested in intellectuals. No offense to non-intellectuals, but I like to have detailed conversations full of interesting insights and rational thought on art, literature, films, shows, philosophy, science, etc. Furthermore, an intelligent and intellectual man, to me, is a turn on. Anyway, I was really put off by this guy’s tone, and I was really turned off by this primate display of wealth and attractiveness. I sent back a polite but firm message of no thanks, and he sent back an insulting message.

Scarlettathena
5 years ago

I forgot to add about that guy who contacted me, he flat out told me he was not intellectual. He had an associates degree and started a business. His interests are things like gambling and watching sports. I have nothing against those for other people, but that’s not my cup of tea, and I could accept them if the guy also had intellectual pursuits, which this guy made clear he didn’t.

M.
M.
5 years ago

Y’know… “Incels” (I’m not typing that without the quotes, it’s not involuntary and the majority aren’t celibate) clearly despise shallowness and the rigid gender roles put in place by toxic masculinity as much as we do. We’d be their best allies in fixing the system if they weren’t so obsessed with blaming, hating and literally murdering us. =/

GrumpyOldMangina
5 years ago

(1) I think the big problem is that it’s easier to blame your lack of sexual success on your looks (and the shallowness of women) than on your repellent personality and your unwillingness to try to get to know women.

(2) Underlying this is the fact that many of these guys want pussy without having to deal with the woman who possesses said pussy, which in my observation tends to be a deal-breaker for any woman who is not too drunk to care (or perhaps even consent?).
Many years ago I went to one of my daughter’s cross-country meets and noticed that there was a guy flirting with her and she was paying him no attention. I was curious, so I asked her about it. She explained that he was notorious for being after Just One Thing, so she was definitely Not Interested.

They don’t seem to realize that if a woman doesn’t like you as a person, you’re not likely to get into her pants.

All to the comments about looks — having them or not having them, including the guy who went on and on about movies — that seems to be almost pure projection coming from men. Men are the gender that is obsessive about looks — in my experience women care a LOT more about personality. I find the idea that large numbers of women would reject Anders Lubitz solely because he was not good-looking enough absolutely ridiculous.

Looking back on my own incel days, yes, I was horny — but I was clearly not mature enough for a mutually caring sexual relationship. (In fact, in retrospect, I question whether I was really ready when I actually got married at 21.) I was always very shy with women, and I have never pursued a woman who did not make it quite clear that she wanted to be pursued (with one exception where I misread her friendliness — she liked me well enough but had escaped from an abusive marriage and wasn’t willing to risk another try, at least yet). I’d like to tell the dudes that if you can be a pleasant person who is fun to be with and share interests with, it won’t be too long before some woman decides she’s interested in a non-platonic relationship. But I suppose she probably wouldn’t be an HB 8 or better. And you’d have to treat her like a real person. Oh, well.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

I met an incel once. He was (is) 5’6”, balding already in his late teens, and quite there on the autistic spectrum (an extreme engineer brain). We’ve been married now for over 30 years, have adult children, and look forward to another 30 years together, health (and gods) permitting.