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Sluthate’s “shitty advice” forum, devoted to discussing such high-minded topics as “Do fat women have dirtier vaginas?” and “why is rape bad,” is a haven for embittered “incels” — self-described “involuntary celibates” — who’ve convinced themselves that they are too objectively unattractive and un-alpha to attract attention from the cruel and superficial “sluts” of the world — a category that seems to include all the women they find attractive.
Back when the forum was known as PUAhate, it was a regular hangout of one especially embittered incel, a young man known as Elliot Rodger, who last year killed six in Isla Vista California, and then himself, in what he called his “Day of Retribution” against women. Many of Sluthate’s regulars, unsurprisingly, have embraced “ER” as a kind of incel martyr.
Now they’ve found a new and improved hero: Andreas Lubitz, the troubled co-pilot who, French officials say, deliberately flew Germanwings Flight 9525 into a mountain in the French Alps.
In a topic entitled BREAKING: Co-pilot was incel and crashed the plane!!!, Sluthate regulars have embraced Lubitz as “one of them” — and are enthusiastically celebrating his alleged mass murder as the possible beginning of a “Beta uprising.”
“New high score, and in a much shorter time too,” a commenter calling himself gobman3000 wrote happily. “Damn, legitimate SLAYER.”
Alienfranco was even more enthusiastic:
What a fucking SLAYER.
Did you ever know that you’re my hero? You are the wind beneath my WINGS. …
Why go out with a whimper when you can go out with a BANG? An incel killing 150+ people will make a lot more of an impact than killing 1 asshole or a few assholes.
A large percentage of the 150+ people on that plane were sluts and Chads anyway.
Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels and give us $2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.
OmegaKV noted that many of the passengers on the plane “were teenagers who were vacationing,” concluding
This was DEFINITELY an incel motivated plane crash.
He couldn’t take it too see so many good looking and happy teenagers with gfs, experiencing the adolescence he always longed for but never got, so took advantage of the perfect opportunity to kill himself while taking the teenage normalfags with him.
PuaKiller agreed:
Yeah. He definitely knew what he was doing. I can only imagine what he was feeling in that moment. Wow. …
This one is going in the hall of fame!
Largely dismissing the news reports suggesting that Lubitz did, in fact, have a girlfriend, the regulars examined each new picture of the alleged mass murderer that appeared in the media for telltale signs of his incel status.
PJ1 was brutal in his assessment:
-looks like a manlet from his proportions. I’d honestly be surprised if he’s over 5 10
-small frame
-critical balding
-beta face
OldRooster1 agreed:
guy does look like an incel manlet that came to the realization that the status of being a pilot was not enough to overcome his 3.5/10 looks/body.
“Look at that frame, he’s about 60kg soaking wet,” Jigar added. “I’d be surprised if his wrists were a hair over 6 inches thick.”
Still another commenter labeled him a “betafaced framecel” — whatever that is — and “the kind of guy that’s INVISIBLE.”
These are harsh assessments, to be sure, and in some cases seem to have virtually no connection with the photographic evidence, but the Sluthate regulars tend to be equally harsh in their assessments of themselves. Thread-starter Zark_Muckerberg, for example, attaches a sig to each of his posts quantifying his romantic and sexual failures:
gfs: 0
kisses: 0
handjobs: 0
blowjobs: 0
intercourse: 0
Having convinced themselves that they will never be able to have a life equal to that of the world’s “good looking and happy … normalfags,” the Sluthaters feel Lubitz’ pain — or, at least, the pain they imagine he felt.
Flawed Mentat blamed the killings on an uncaring world that didn’t deliver Lubitz the “good woman” he deserved.
HE did not fire the first shot. Women and Society, blase, branded HIM as non human, invisible, an object of scorn and laughter. So, when it sunk in that all his effort was in vain, there were no good women awaiting him, life was gonna be just as empty, lonely and horrifying as before he even started training as a pilot, well, he probably logically decided to declare war back on the human race, since it was open in its war on him.
ThereIsNoGame agreed:
Just lol @ reddit comments saying how creepy it is that he didn’t think about the lives of all the people he killed.
Yeah, well what about all the people who never gave a fuck about him. He was probably treated like shit over and over again.
Society never looks itself in the mirror when it is to blame.
Don’t treat people like shit and shit wont happen. Why is that so hard to understand?
He ended his comment with this chilling warning-cum-threat.
looks like more people will need to die until the message is drilled in.
Zygominati directed his ire at a familiar target:
I blame feminism for this. In days gone by pilots would flirt with stewardesses and pinch their arses. They would leave their hotel room ajar for layover shenanigans. Now they are bus drivers in the sky that can’t even take a shit. This incel was probably sold a dream and after countless hours of flight time realised there is nothing there.
Meanwhile, the few Sluthaters who didn’t utterly dismiss the news reports of Lubitz having a girlfriend seized on the reports that the two had broken up — and blamed the girlfriend for “cucking” him. As Patriarch put it,
If its true that his girlfriend cucked or dumped him, just imagine how smug this entitled shitcunt must feel like right now. Looking at him, she was a 4 at best but now she gets her own little fairytale drama story and she gets to go on TV and talk about how awful she feels and how she never expected this to happen. In the aftermath, a bunch of whiteknights will whiteknight her into oblivion and probably donate a million € to her fundme so she can learn to deal with this tragedy…. Fucking feminist shitcunt society
It goes without saying that all of these embittered rants are based almost entirely on projection. We know very little about Lubitz, or what might have motivated him to (allegedly) crash the plane, killing 149 innocent human beings and himself.
While news reports suggest that he had suffered from depression and from some other mental illnesses as yet unnamed, these revelations raise more questions than they answer. Depression can certainly contribute to suicide, but mass murder? Mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence than victimizers.
While it seems clear that Lubitz was not literally an “incel” — he apparently did have a girlfriend — it’s certainly possible that he crashed the plane because he was upset over a breakup with that girlfriend, or angry at women in general.
That’s not a conclusion we can draw based on looking at Lubitz’s “waist-hip-ratio” or the size of his wrists. It’s a possibility we can raise based on our understanding of how murder/suicides unfold in the real world.
As I pointed out yesterday, murder/suicide is overwhelmingly a male crime, and the victims are often wives, girlfriends or exes. Breakups often trigger rage in men, and a few take this rage out on the women they feel have wronged them. Or, in extreme cases, on women in general. The intended targets of Elliot Rodger’s rampage were what the “spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut[s]” in a local sorority. (Luckily, he was barred at the door and his plan collapsed.)
But even if Lubitz was driven by “incel rage” or something much like it, it’s worth pointing out that this rage is based on bullshit. Elliot Rodger was not objectively unattractive; his problems with women came from within, from a mixture of embittered entitlement, self-hatred and an assortment of other psychological demons.
Similarly, the rage of Sluthate’s incels is driven not by the actual behavior of women in the real world but by their fucked-up ideas about women — and themselves. Sluthaters hate themselves as much as they hate “sluts,” and project their own hyper-critical assessments of their own looks onto the women they think are perpetually judging them and finding them wanting. Ironically, they themselves view women with the same hyper-critical eyes, dismissing all but a handful of young, conventionally attractive women as “fugly hambeasts” and the like.
Sluthate reinforces a poisonous and supremely self-defeating way of looking at the world. Whether or not Lubitz was driven by “incel rage,” I think we have every reason to worry that Sluthate and other internet forums devoted to “incels” may be breeding more “heroes” like Elliot Rodger and, possibly, Andreas Lubitz.
I’ve browsed through SlutHate quite extensively. They do meet to talk about how much they hate women and how awful women are for having standards and how terribly unfair it is that women who aren’t HB 8s, 9s, and 10s can sometimes get laid. They also have celebrated men who committed mass murder because they couldn’t get laid enough. They have also argued that the government should pay conventionally attractive women to have sex with incels. They have argued that mass murders wouldn’t happen if women weren’t so damn picky. They also pretend that their looks are the problem when the reality is that very few of them are ugly; most are average or better in the looks department. So, with that in mind, it is absolutely fair to suggest that they could improve their chances by getting a personality makeover and taking better care with their grooming.
New Poster, people are responding to the actual rhetoric posted on sites like Sluthate. I know you say it’s a “shock” site, but that doesn’t change the fact that it puts those statements out there, and real people internalize them.
There was a poster above who was flat out saying things like “all women are evil whores who fuck Chads instead of me.” Then there was another guy who was playing the “just sayin'” game while suggesting that women who won’t sleep with certain men are morally reprehensible. Those kinds of statements are extreme, and will provoke extreme reactions.
I can’t speak for everybody here, but what irritates me the most with the conversation about attractiveness that incel defenders want to have is that it revolves around women denying men sex. Any suggestion that women enjoy (or don’t enjoy) sex, or have any feelings about who they sleep with at all, or might have a hard time finding sex and feel unattractive themselves, is brushed aside.
And this completely ignores the fact that women are far more likely to experience negative outcomes in life for being perceived as unattractive. Women – not men – are told practically from birth that their entire worth is bound up in being “pretty.” Women – not men – are continually dismissed and ridiculed based on their appearance. Women – not men – are socialized to look past appearances when choosing a partner.
That doesn’t mean that physical attractiveness has no bearing on men’s life outcomes, but if we’re being honest, society is far more forgiving of unattractive men than unattractive women. And this is coming from an unattractive man.
“Sluthate being a “Shock Site” would be more credible if there were fewer guys who took it seriously and supported the philosophies expounded upon there.”
” Pretty sure they mean every word.”
There’s literally a thread titled “fuck Lubitz this is what a true slayer is like.” Slayer is the term for highly-attractive male. You click the thread and it’s pictures of Jim Jones and the Jonestown massacre. Most of what goes on Sluthate is just pointless shock material. There’s another thread where someone simply asks “if your girlfriend refuses sex, would you beat her?” And posters respond with other highly violent alternatives that are so outlandish they’re ridiculous. This is the context for all of this. There’s a central view that motivates this: Looks and status affect your social and sexual success. But the post there take it to ridiculous extremes to get a rise out of people.
“In fact, there have been a lot of people in this thread saying that they find different appearances appealing or not appealing, but that they also find certain behaviors appealing or not appealing as well… with ‘incels’ often displaying very few of the physically unappealing traits but a boatload of the behaviorally unappealing traits.”
How do you know what anonymous posters look like? Some posters will post a face shot, but you really don’t get much of a feel for how they come across in person. And from what I see, they’re not exactly gorgeous — pretty average at best. It’s just a sad fact that people get judged based on their looks. I can’t tell what someone’s personality is actually like — I can’t get in their head and learn what they’re thinking. We all have to go off the visual clues we get from the person. And if someone gives off more attractive visual clues — then we tend to think they’re a better person. On an internet forum you can divorce their picture from the text they write, and chalk up someone’s number of “physically unappealing traits” and “behaviorally unappealing traits.” But in actual social situations, someone’s looks tend to make their personality appear one way or another. It’s the “halo effect.”
“Oh Sophisticated One, then feel free to elaborate, but don’t expect everyone to fall over in agreement with your mighty logic.”
Hey I’m a simple guy with simple tastes. But there are people who actually study this, and one of the main results they find is that looks play a largely unacknowledged role in both social and sexual situations. This research is published in major journals like Science and Annual Review of Psychology. I’ll give just one psychologist’s view here:
“In universal and sometimes complicated patterns, higher physical attractiveness will continue to be beneficial and lower physical attractiveness will continue to be detrimental to those individuals whose appearance differ correspondingly. People of both genders and of all ages will continue to pursue higher and higher levels of physical attractiveness, often with unaffordable and negative consequences…. Physical attractiveness will hold its position as it triggers, exerts, and controls phenomenon that is powerful and pervasive despite the fact that people seldom see it, seldom recognize it, and very frequently deny it” (from Power and Paradox of Physical Attractiveness 2006)
The article could have put Sluthate in the context of the “unaffordable and negative consequences” that low attractiveness individual face when faced with higher attractive people. Particular as these power discrepancies occur in a world where people “seldom recognize” and “very frequently deny” the role of looks. This would have been a more productive discussion. You’re right that this forum probably isn’t the place for this discussion. The sensation way the issue has been set up by the article is counterproductive.
That was my whole point.
@New Poster:
Encyclopedia Dramatica is a shock site. Most of 4chan is a shock site. r/SpaceDicks is a shock site. This is just a forum.where the commenters hold extreme views. There’s a difference.
Not one of your comments supports your assertion that people here are saying “that anyone who thinks looks matter is just a murder-supporting, rape-apologizing, sexually-frustrated misogynist.” We call them murder-supporting because they support murder (Andreas Lubitz and Elliot Rodger). We call them rape-apologizing because they support rape (“why is rape bad?”). We call them sexually frustrated because they self-identify as such. We call them misogynists because they are.
This is a pet peeve of mine… pretending that directed criticism of some problematic thing is actually broad criticism of something harmless. No.
Ok. But that isn’t the point of this post. Go find somewhere else to have it.
The OP is not about that, it’s about pointing out the toxicity in the incel community of SlutHate as it pertains to recent events. Insisting we should talk about something else is just derailing.
But, since we’re derailing already…
K. Incels just need a personality makeover. Combing their hair probably won’t do much on its own.
@New Poster:
What, out of completely random folks who happen to stumble on their little forum while surfing the world wide web? Or out of the people who are posting said material? Who is the target, exactly?
You need to learn the difference between purposeful shock humor and actual views that you personally just happen to find extreme.
I see. Did you miss my point where they’re not actually a bunch of uggos?
…Do you not get the context for that one? They’re praising Jones for being so attractive that he was able to persuade people to commit suicide on a massive scale!* That’s like praising Ted Bundy for being good with the ladies.
And it never occurs to you that the posters there might, uh, actually want to do those things?
Ooh, ooh, ooh! I think that I get what your real point is. It’s okay for men to make jokes about violently beating women for turning down sex as long as those men are convinced that they’re ugly and that their looks are the cause of all their misfortunes. Furthermore, making people mad and scared will clearly motivate society to help correct biases against unattractive people instead of causing everyone to shun SlutHaters like the twisted misogynists that they are.
Because there’s a section on SlutHate called RateMe? Where they post photos of themselves? That are sometimes full body shots? And I, as a woman, think that most of them are average or better in the looks department?
Honestly, I think that the guys like you and like the SlutHaters who pick themselves and other men apart, pointing out and making up minuscule, insignificant flaws ares the ones doing the real harm. You’re trying to create exacting beauty standards for men, and you’re tearing down the self-esteem of men who are already insecure about their looks.
Oh, “unaffordable and negative consequences that low attractiveness individuals face when faced with higher attractive people” like committing mass murder or supporting other “low attractiveness individuals” who do? Oh my, those poor wittle wooby destroyers of worlds!
*The Jonestown massacre probably wasn’t actually mass suicide but in fact mass murder. This would also disprove their claim that men would less violent if only women weren’t so damn picky!
Oh! And they do support rape. (massive tw)
http://sluthate.com/w/Rape
Literally nobody is arguing that people aren’t judged on their appearance. That doesn’t mean that you have to be conventionally attractive to find a partner as incels claim. There’s a difference between individual and group behavior.
Seconding WWTH.
New Poster also skipped right over my point about how it doesn’t matter if what is posted on SlutHate is meant in earnest or not, it is gross either way and the men who post there are assholes either way. I think New Poster is just not really big on getting points.
I seem to be missing a step between “they’re saying vile shit to get a rise out of people” and “that makes it OK for them to say that shit”. Can someone help me out?
It’s like a Turing test. If you can’t tell the difference between a sincere hate site and a “for the lulz” hate site, it might as well be a real hate site.
“New Poster also skipped right over my point”
Hey, I’m a popular guy, and I’ve got a lot on my plate.
“it doesn’t matter if what is posted on SlutHate is meant in earnest or not, it is gross either way and the men who post there are assholes either way”
Yeah, it kinda matters because you’re tilting at windmills. There are posters on the site who have gifs of guys masturbating in their signature. This is the site you’re calling out. Way to go. I’m sure they have egg on their face now.
“They’re praising Jones for being so attractive that he was able to persuade people to commit suicide on a massive scale!*”
That thread is tagged with “Shitposting is Everything.” Do you know what shitposting is? It’s spamming controversial material that doesn’t add anything to a discussion. The OP included pictures of the dead at Jonestown. The one poster on that thread who didn’t get it and had to ask was horrified to learn about the event. This is the misogyny that you’re exposing?
“And it never occurs to you that the posters there might, uh, actually want to do those things?”
No, because it was a shitpost to get attention. The thread includes an eighteenth-century drawing of heads on pikes. It’s incredibly poor taste, but that’s the point. If you want to call these poster out on being obscene or sensational, I’m totally with you. But, as evidence that misogyny is everywhere, this is pretty weak.
Sluthate comes from the former puahate which was about the pitfalls of pick-up artist tactics. PUAs tried to convince men that certain behaviors or thought processes are what attracted women. Puahate formed to mock this assumption and argue that things like looks and status are what play the main role in attraction. If you want to talk about Sluthate, you need to acknowledge that this is the main motivation for the site. If you just want to talk about the shitposting, you’re not really doing much.
Whether they mean it or not, they’re assholes. Whether they care or not if we call them assholes, they should be called assholes. Otherwise, you’re basically saying their behavior is acceptable (the standard you walk past, and all that). Is that what you’re saying? Because you seem to be trying really hard to discourage people from saying anything negative about them. Why would you do that?
No, we don’t. I mean we get that it’s about hating PUAs but acting like they’re performing some kind of public service is breathtakingly dishonest. They’ve just exchanged one vile, ignorant, toxic ideology for another.
We’re talking about what we wish to talk about. Because we have that right. It doesn’t need to meet your arbitrary standard of doing enough.
I thought PUAHate was started by guys for whom PUA didn’t work and who were angry about not getting laid. If the site is genuinely about exposing the bogus tactics of PUA, why was it renamed SlutHate? That sounds like it’s just shifting the blame to women. And don’t try to tell us it’s some kind of ironic shitname and they don’t really mean it.
What is the point of “shitposting”, anyway? Is it so people can say extremely horrible, hurtful things without having to own up to them? Because that’s a form of entitlement right there: “I get to say these awful things and not care about how it affects other people.” In effect, you’re saying nobody can ever be held accountable for what they say or do, because the shitposting defense magically absolves them. Hey, at most they’re just being tasteless!
This isn’t a case of a bunch of boys having a private farting contest, out of earshot of Mom and teachers. These things are being posted on the internet, where anyone from Elliott Rodger to the 13-year-old girl across the street can see them and uncritically absorb their messages.
It really doesn’t matter whether people on SlutHate are bored, looking for attention, don’t understand what they’re saying, or are genuinely shitweasels. If they’re amplifying misogyny, they’re perpetuating it. Intent doesn’t magically render people immune to the effects of these posts.
I’ll take it as evidence that misogyny is all over SlutHate. Seriously, though, how does fantasizing about putting their girlfriends’ heads on pikes for withholding sex (and yes, that is exactly what they are doing, “shitposting” or anything else) draw sympathy for their plight? All that this does is show me exactly why they’re not getting laid, and it’s got absolutely nothing to do with their looks, which, for the third time, are not the problem because they are not bad-looking guys.
Jigar thought his wrists were a hair over 6 inches thick. Or more likely in circumference. Yet equestrian’s consider 6-8 inch circumference of cannon bone per 1,000 lb good enough leg bone for a riding horse. Given good conformation otherwise this is enough bone for flat work as it allows a faster stride swing at speed, but the 8″ is best for jumping.
What do wrists of a pilot or other white collar worker support that requires greater girth than the leg bone that supports the impact of the running stride of a horse? ( Cannon bones are the ones that a horse tends to break, or bow tendons in racing)’
They certainly have distorted body image problems.
Racist jokes, when allowed to go unchecked, create a permissive environment for racists that tells them their race-hate is normal and acceptable. I imagine an environment full of misogynist “shitposting” would have a similar effect of normalising and strengthening hate towards women. Even if “shitposters” aren’t personally misogynists(BIG if), their actions likely strengthen and create more misogyny in others who share that environment.
The “they’re just shitposting” excuse doesn’t get them off the hook, not at all.
I don’t know if this thread is old enough for my post to count as a “necro” but this is an interesting (to me at least) viewpoint on autism. I knew autistic people were particularly desired in some areas (such as nuclear safety) but I hadn’t heard of this unit before. Makes sense though.
https://www.facebook.com/IsraeliMossadNews/posts/756333911141528
Yeah, it is. They’re posting terrible shit that’s really fucking cruel and offensive, just for the sake of it being cruel and offensive. How juvenile do you have to be?
As I mentioned in another thread: Schrödinger’s Douchebag.
“A person who does something offensive, and then decides if they were joking depending on the reaction to the offensive thing.”
I’ve added a new excuse to the growing list of “I was just joking!” and “It’s satire!”.
“It’s just shitposting!”
You can joke around/make satire/shitpost without being a disgustingly nauseating fuck soirée.
Why do they need to say terrible things about other people to joke around or get a laugh? Is their sense of humor that limited that jokes about killing women and putting their heads on pikes is the only thing that can make them laugh?
And then these fucknuggets get pissy when a feminist makes a joke about “Male Tears” (and no, it doesn’t mean semen. That was made up by pissbaby MRAs who decided that we can’t have a (pretty fucking harmless) joke at their expense while they joke about raping and murdering us).
TL;DR: “Shitposting” doesn’t absolve them of jack chicken shit. It’s still fucking gross and if their sense of humor needs to involve murder fantasies of women who “don’t put out”, then they’re gross. If you feel the need to “defend” their juvenile posts of things that they can use to exploit people’s fear and pain for a quick lulz, you’re gross too. Flounce and stick it Schrödinger’s Douchebag.
Ahh, sluthate. This isn’t the first time they’ve pulled stupid crap like this. Earlier this month they pulled a “raid” on the ‘feminist pokemon forum’ called Kiwi Farms. Which is a website devoted to mocking internet weirdos. The raid went like this:
1: Sluthaters show up, demand thread be removed.
2: Sluthaters mocked.
3: Sluthaters out their entire userbase as pedophiles.
4: Sluthaters triggered by posters of the movie “Cop Dog”.
5: Sluthater’s declare victory, run away.
Start of “raid”: https://kiwifar.ms/threads/sluthate-com.6192/page-36
I’m an incel, basically. I did manage to lose my virginity 2 years ago at the age of 29, but it was also almost 2 years ago since I last had sex.
I am trying to channel my anger into becoming more desirable; but I completely empathize with the feelings of the members of sluthate.com.
I would ask that people not judge these incels, but instead try to take what they say as legitimate. You may not think they are right with their world-view, but these thoughts didn’t come from nowhere; they are a reflection of these peoples’ lives.
If someone is hurting, try to understand their pain rather than judge them. That’s what I think…
Dude, one of these guys literally tried to proposition his own mom.
@Turkey Burger – As someone who is herself single and wishes she wasn’t—and who has spent a lot of adulthood in that condition—it is okay for people to feel lonely. It is okay to be sad about not having a partner. It is okay to have sexual desires and it’s okay to be disappointed if those aren’t being satisfied in the ways that the lonely person would like.
But none of those feelings justify hating an entire gender (or even just the attractive ones, anyway), and none of those feelings justify throwing giant temper tantrums on the internet. None of them can be blamed on other people. None of them are a license for real or threatened violence. None of them even remotely excuse cheering for someone who killed a whole bunch of people.
It’s not that we refuse to empathize with lonely guys. We refuse to condone destructive behavior, even if it’s coming from lonely guys.