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Sluthate’s “shitty advice” forum, devoted to discussing such high-minded topics as “Do fat women have dirtier vaginas?” and “why is rape bad,” is a haven for embittered “incels” — self-described “involuntary celibates” — who’ve convinced themselves that they are too objectively unattractive and un-alpha to attract attention from the cruel and superficial “sluts” of the world — a category that seems to include all the women they find attractive.
Back when the forum was known as PUAhate, it was a regular hangout of one especially embittered incel, a young man known as Elliot Rodger, who last year killed six in Isla Vista California, and then himself, in what he called his “Day of Retribution” against women. Many of Sluthate’s regulars, unsurprisingly, have embraced “ER” as a kind of incel martyr.
Now they’ve found a new and improved hero: Andreas Lubitz, the troubled co-pilot who, French officials say, deliberately flew Germanwings Flight 9525 into a mountain in the French Alps.
In a topic entitled BREAKING: Co-pilot was incel and crashed the plane!!!, Sluthate regulars have embraced Lubitz as “one of them” — and are enthusiastically celebrating his alleged mass murder as the possible beginning of a “Beta uprising.”
“New high score, and in a much shorter time too,” a commenter calling himself gobman3000 wrote happily. “Damn, legitimate SLAYER.”
Alienfranco was even more enthusiastic:
What a fucking SLAYER.
Did you ever know that you’re my hero? You are the wind beneath my WINGS. …
Why go out with a whimper when you can go out with a BANG? An incel killing 150+ people will make a lot more of an impact than killing 1 asshole or a few assholes.
A large percentage of the 150+ people on that plane were sluts and Chads anyway.
Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels and give us $2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.
OmegaKV noted that many of the passengers on the plane “were teenagers who were vacationing,” concluding
This was DEFINITELY an incel motivated plane crash.
He couldn’t take it too see so many good looking and happy teenagers with gfs, experiencing the adolescence he always longed for but never got, so took advantage of the perfect opportunity to kill himself while taking the teenage normalfags with him.
PuaKiller agreed:
Yeah. He definitely knew what he was doing. I can only imagine what he was feeling in that moment. Wow. …
This one is going in the hall of fame!
Largely dismissing the news reports suggesting that Lubitz did, in fact, have a girlfriend, the regulars examined each new picture of the alleged mass murderer that appeared in the media for telltale signs of his incel status.
PJ1 was brutal in his assessment:
-looks like a manlet from his proportions. I’d honestly be surprised if he’s over 5 10
-small frame
-critical balding
-beta face
OldRooster1 agreed:
guy does look like an incel manlet that came to the realization that the status of being a pilot was not enough to overcome his 3.5/10 looks/body.
“Look at that frame, he’s about 60kg soaking wet,” Jigar added. “I’d be surprised if his wrists were a hair over 6 inches thick.”
Still another commenter labeled him a “betafaced framecel” — whatever that is — and “the kind of guy that’s INVISIBLE.”
These are harsh assessments, to be sure, and in some cases seem to have virtually no connection with the photographic evidence, but the Sluthate regulars tend to be equally harsh in their assessments of themselves. Thread-starter Zark_Muckerberg, for example, attaches a sig to each of his posts quantifying his romantic and sexual failures:
gfs: 0
kisses: 0
handjobs: 0
blowjobs: 0
intercourse: 0
Having convinced themselves that they will never be able to have a life equal to that of the world’s “good looking and happy … normalfags,” the Sluthaters feel Lubitz’ pain — or, at least, the pain they imagine he felt.
Flawed Mentat blamed the killings on an uncaring world that didn’t deliver Lubitz the “good woman” he deserved.
HE did not fire the first shot. Women and Society, blase, branded HIM as non human, invisible, an object of scorn and laughter. So, when it sunk in that all his effort was in vain, there were no good women awaiting him, life was gonna be just as empty, lonely and horrifying as before he even started training as a pilot, well, he probably logically decided to declare war back on the human race, since it was open in its war on him.
ThereIsNoGame agreed:
Just lol @ reddit comments saying how creepy it is that he didn’t think about the lives of all the people he killed.
Yeah, well what about all the people who never gave a fuck about him. He was probably treated like shit over and over again.
Society never looks itself in the mirror when it is to blame.
Don’t treat people like shit and shit wont happen. Why is that so hard to understand?
He ended his comment with this chilling warning-cum-threat.
looks like more people will need to die until the message is drilled in.
Zygominati directed his ire at a familiar target:
I blame feminism for this. In days gone by pilots would flirt with stewardesses and pinch their arses. They would leave their hotel room ajar for layover shenanigans. Now they are bus drivers in the sky that can’t even take a shit. This incel was probably sold a dream and after countless hours of flight time realised there is nothing there.
Meanwhile, the few Sluthaters who didn’t utterly dismiss the news reports of Lubitz having a girlfriend seized on the reports that the two had broken up — and blamed the girlfriend for “cucking” him. As Patriarch put it,
If its true that his girlfriend cucked or dumped him, just imagine how smug this entitled shitcunt must feel like right now. Looking at him, she was a 4 at best but now she gets her own little fairytale drama story and she gets to go on TV and talk about how awful she feels and how she never expected this to happen. In the aftermath, a bunch of whiteknights will whiteknight her into oblivion and probably donate a million € to her fundme so she can learn to deal with this tragedy…. Fucking feminist shitcunt society
It goes without saying that all of these embittered rants are based almost entirely on projection. We know very little about Lubitz, or what might have motivated him to (allegedly) crash the plane, killing 149 innocent human beings and himself.
While news reports suggest that he had suffered from depression and from some other mental illnesses as yet unnamed, these revelations raise more questions than they answer. Depression can certainly contribute to suicide, but mass murder? Mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence than victimizers.
While it seems clear that Lubitz was not literally an “incel” — he apparently did have a girlfriend — it’s certainly possible that he crashed the plane because he was upset over a breakup with that girlfriend, or angry at women in general.
That’s not a conclusion we can draw based on looking at Lubitz’s “waist-hip-ratio” or the size of his wrists. It’s a possibility we can raise based on our understanding of how murder/suicides unfold in the real world.
As I pointed out yesterday, murder/suicide is overwhelmingly a male crime, and the victims are often wives, girlfriends or exes. Breakups often trigger rage in men, and a few take this rage out on the women they feel have wronged them. Or, in extreme cases, on women in general. The intended targets of Elliot Rodger’s rampage were what the “spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut[s]” in a local sorority. (Luckily, he was barred at the door and his plan collapsed.)
But even if Lubitz was driven by “incel rage” or something much like it, it’s worth pointing out that this rage is based on bullshit. Elliot Rodger was not objectively unattractive; his problems with women came from within, from a mixture of embittered entitlement, self-hatred and an assortment of other psychological demons.
Similarly, the rage of Sluthate’s incels is driven not by the actual behavior of women in the real world but by their fucked-up ideas about women — and themselves. Sluthaters hate themselves as much as they hate “sluts,” and project their own hyper-critical assessments of their own looks onto the women they think are perpetually judging them and finding them wanting. Ironically, they themselves view women with the same hyper-critical eyes, dismissing all but a handful of young, conventionally attractive women as “fugly hambeasts” and the like.
Sluthate reinforces a poisonous and supremely self-defeating way of looking at the world. Whether or not Lubitz was driven by “incel rage,” I think we have every reason to worry that Sluthate and other internet forums devoted to “incels” may be breeding more “heroes” like Elliot Rodger and, possibly, Andreas Lubitz.
I always think they’re really going to give a straight answer this time. When will I learn?
I don’t mean to blow you’re mind, but incels have not cornered the market on personal misfortune, romantic disappointment, emotional longing and/or heartbreak. Incels think their pain is uniquely spectacular, overwhelming and undeserved, but in fact there’s always plenty of raw emotional pain to go around. Yet you chucklefucks are so immature, narcissistic and devoid of empathy that you want the rest of society to drop everything and focus on getting you guys sex and/or a girlfriend. Hell, you think that there’s a moral imperative for strangers to actively work to solve your relationship problems.
You also apparently think incels have it as bad or worse than victims of poverty, racism and rape or any other damaging thing on earth. That’s because you don’t care about anyone, at all, other than yourself and men you see yourself in. You’re a selfish asshole asking for empathy while offering none.
@ Lisa
Mind if I steal “It’s a ‘duh’ thing” as a title if I ever write a Romcom?
Gandy. Why is it only a moral issue when men can’t get sex? Why have you ignored the dozens of responses from women who have mentioned that they have had problems getting sex?
Why aren’t these women also incels? Why don’t they deserve “moral consideration?” Why do you ignore their suffering?
Are you going to chalk it up to “gender differences?” Do you really believe that there are “studies” about gender difference that “prove” that women have absolutely no interest in sex and only give or withhold it to antagonize ugly men (who aren’t always even all that ugly)?
Sorry, but this is profoundly idiotic.
Holy shit, @Gandy et al.
First, I gotta put in a word for ‘Chads’ bc according to the description, Busband is a Chad. He’s tall, muscular, lean, good looking. He is a guy that you would apparently hate just for existing, bc he must automatically be an asshole, right? Never mind that he’s sweet, far more maternal than I’ll ever be, very gentle and considerate; that we laugh all the time, that we’re best friends, that he’s honest with me and open about himself. We’ve been happily unmarried to each other for 19 years. And when I first met him, I did not find him physically attractive at all, even though to many other women he was objectively attractive. His whole look wasn’t my ‘type’. I grew attracted to him as I got to know him, and then? I asked him out and we’ve been together from that day on.
Just saying – some ‘Chads’, and likely most ‘Chads’, are also good guys. Quit projecting on other men. They are people, for chrissakes.
Second… a moral issue? Moral consideration? FFS. It’s not like there aren’t resources for people (men and women) who are awkward or otherwise feel undateable. And looks? They are not an unsurmountable obstacle.
One of the happiest men I know is a client of mine. He has no arms. You want a dating obstacle? There you go. Have no arms. You want a reason to be bitter and pissed off at ‘society’? Have no arms. This fella, however, decided that ‘society’ didn’t dictate what his life was going to be like. He had an active social life in high school. He played trombone in band. Got his drivers license. Plays drums and piano. Dated around, got married, had kids. Built a successful business doing something he loves, gets to travel all over the world. He loves his life. What’s your excuse? Fucking wrist circumference?
Sure, looks are (over) emphasized in our culture. But in practice, they aren’t such a huge deal. My dad? Nerdy, short, glasses, bald since his twenties, and missing one hand. Married my mum, who was a model at the time. Now remarried to another very attractive woman who is awesome. My mum? Remarried to a wonderful guy who is tall, skinny, buck-toothed and has a deformed leg (from polio). Personality matters.
I’m not going to give moral consideration to a bunch of whiners who blame everyone but themselves for their lack of partners; who say they are going their own way, but really mean they are going to wallow and fester in their own bitterness and self-pity while shouting at the world to change rather than looking inwards to see if maybe, just maybe, they could use some self-care and self-improvement; who have a shitty victim attitude that has been entirely self-created, and who see the world as being against them so much that they delight when people die.
While I certainly hope they get some sort of insight into themselves and take some ownership over their own lives (for their own sake), I’m not going to coo over them in the meantime, or embark on a serious discussion about why society is to blame for their lack of blow jobs. I’m sorry they’re unhappy, but their sheer nastiness garners no sympathy from me, nor should it.
Sluthate seems to be the equivalent of a support group for angry people who got suckered by a get-rich-quick seminar. PUA is total bullshit, I think we can at least agree on that.
Attractiveness, like wealth, comes from a combination of things that are in your control and things that are out of your control. The crucial point is that neither one trumps the other. It’s possible to be wealthy even if you weren’t born, married, or educated into money, and it’s possible to be attractive even if you’re one of the 699,999,999 non-Brad-Pitt people on the planet. This thread is full of examples of people who eventually found love despite being lonely, despite being quirky, despite being non conventionally attractive and not dating a while lot. It’s also full of happily unpartnered people who don’t hang their worth on having sex. We’re not a bunch of sneaky con artists trying to blow sunshine up your posterior.
Just about everyone goes through “incel” or dry spells in their life, even the Chads and the HBs. I spent my whole adolescence convinced I was ugly and undateable. I’ve been single now for a few years and have no idea if or when I’ll date again. My 6’2″ Marine cousin, handsome, smart, and debonair as the day is long, was alone until well into his forties. My brother, in his late fifties, was alone for 7 years until just a few months ago, when he met and married the love of his life. My step-grandmother had never dated in her life till she met my widowed grandfather at age 63. All of us were too busy with life to waste time feeling bad about not being partnered.
I think your issue, Gandy, is that you’ve bought into the rigid caste system of traditional masculinity. Sure, it’s a system that works well for the lucky 1% alphas, but it’s pretty harmful for everyone else. One of the big lies of traditional masculinity is that attractivess is a fixed state, determined at birth by your genes and socioeconomic standing, that it cannot be altered, and there is a universal objective consensus about where you fall in the rankings. All untrue. Attractiveness is mutable and highly subjective and varies throughout your life. There is no one be-all, end-all way of being attractive that everyone agrees on. (Even the mythical Brad Pitt, you’ll find if you poll the straight/bi women and gay/bi men here, doesn’t do it for everybody). It’s absurd to talk about sexual ranking as if it’s something permanent, when no two people can even agree on what a given person’s attractiveness level is right this moment.
However, it is kind of a “duh” (to borrow Lisa’s phrase) that women are always going to be repelled by those who denigrate them as bitches and sluts and trophy fuck objects, who exult over the corpses of innocent victims because they believe blood is the price the world must pay for their pain, who advocate for government-sponsored rape. That’s just downright vile.
I mean, I’d sooner lick a McDonald’s trash can.
As for your hypothetical overweight, brainy black woman, chances are her attitude about not being able to find a partner would be realistic and sad, because women tend to internalize these things and assume they’re at fault. Sadness is a more understandable and sympathetic reaction to loneliness than anger.
I don’t hang out in incel forums, but does anyone there ever express sadness, or would they get mocked mercilessly and ripped to shreds? In other words, might that mindset be causing you to deal with rejection in a way that others outside the community find puzzling and ludicrous and hard to sympathize with?
*preemptively asks the Blockquote Mammoth to let her live*
The alternative would be to engage with some of the information you are being presented with. Take on board the stories people are sharing. Answer some of the questions you’re being asked. Repeating yourself and waiting for us to suddenly agree with you is not going to work.
I would contest that “sexually desirable” is not something that anyone can become—at least not in the sense of never getting rejected, never failing to click with someone you find attractive, or never having long, painful dry spells. “Sexually desirable” is not a fixed social category, and it is not in any sense an objective quality. It is not something that will work across the board for the entire gender(s) of your choosing.
You cannot become “sexually desirable”, full stop. You can only be (or become) sexually desirable to someone. If that person wants something that you are not, and cannot become, then that sucks, but that means that this person—an actual, individual human being—doesn’t want to sleep with you. No one has the ability or the right to change their feelings on the matter. Not to mention, that person is not representative of their entire gender.
Although, as many, many people have said, there are lots of proactive things to do to work towards self-improvement. You can’t make anyone in particular like you, but you can resist self-destructive cycles. You may never become a social butterfly, but you can learn how to cope with social situations a bit better. You may never come across as suave, but you can learn what sort of behavior widely reads as creepy, and learn to not do that. You may never look like Brad Pitt, but you can learn how to put together a decent outfit and haircut. You may never feel confident about asking a woman out, but you can learn how to ask her at all. I’d recommend checking out Dr. Nerdlove, who actually gives helpful advice about all of this, instead of bellyaching about mean women with other lonely dudes.
I have listened to what they say, but I see big, gaping flaws it, because it is not actually their lived experience. Lived experience would be, “Every woman I have approached has rejected me. Some of them were really mean about it. That’s painful and I don’t know what to do. I’m angry and I’m not sure I want to bother with dating anymore, and yet I hate being lonely.” That’s honest lived experience, and I can have all kinds of compassion for that.
But when they start saying things like, “all women are just shallow sluts who will always throw themselves at a Chad, even/especially if he acts like an asshole”, then I have a right to say something, because they are talking about my lived experience as a woman now. That is not how I feel. That is not what any of my friends do. I know lots of single women in their thirties who really, really want to be in a relationship and have never turned down a man for being non-chad-like or for being too nice. But no matter how many any of us say, “Actually, the way we feel about this is XYZ,” incels won’t hear it, because it conflicts with their theory about us. We’re not the ones ignoring lived experience here.
Nobody is saying that their suffering doesn’t matter. Loneliness sucks. A lot of us know this, because a lot of us have been (or are currently) there. We are contending that, from that place of legitimate loneliness, incels shift the blame to women and/or “Chads” in fantastically toxic ways. And we are also saying that society cannot, in any humane way, fix this for incels.
And yet some clearly do, and incel forums have no problem with letting that language go unchecked. That’s a major problem for that community.
You keep saying this, but haven’t said anything to substantiate it. How is it a moral problem? Is every man entitled to a partner? Even bad men? If bad men are not entitled to partners, then where do we draw the line between good and bad men? And once we’ve sorted that out, how does society go about providing partners to these deserving men? Does society have to provide their ideal (looks/health/age) partner for them, or is any person attached to a vagina sufficient? Does the partner have a choice in this arrangement? If the partner has a choice, then how is society going to ensure that no deserving man gets repeatedly rejected? And in all of this, are women entitled to partners, too? What about people (of any gender) who aren’t straight? What about polyamorous people? Is there any solution out there that doesn’t involve forcing people to be with someone they’d rather not be with?
A problem that has no moral solution cannot be a moral problem.
I think children need to be taught at a young age that life isn’t fair. A lot of incels I know were sheltered as children and given everything they wanted. When they grew up, they had to deal with the reality that you cant always get what you want.
Most incels I have met are also not very attractive and are very picky and shallow. They somehow believe that they deserve a beautiful girlfriend, even though they have poor hygiene and an even poorer personality.
I am sorry but if you wont settle for anything less than perfection in another, you are going to end up with nothing in the end. And I will never feel sorry for you
The biggest issue with the vast majority of so-called “incels” that I’ve encountered online is a staggering lack of self-awareness.
I suspect I may be repeating points I’ve already made elsewhere in this discussion, but while it is undoubtedly true that physical attractiveness isn’t distributed equally, there are plenty of ways you can compensate. In all seriousness, if you asked the women here whether they’d prepare a six-foot-five Adonis with a massive cock or someone much more conventional-looking (or even considered “ugly”) who was also genuinely charming, witty, interesting and a good listener, I suspect a very substantial number would pick option two. Especially if they were considering a longer-term relationship than just a casual one-night fling.
But the problem with a great many “incels” is that even to people who have absolutely no idea what they look or sound like, they come across online as profoundly unattractive. They’re whiny, they obsess about things that no normal person cares two hoots about (wrist circumference???!!!!??), they regard women either with undisguised contempt or as mysterious and unknowable Others instead of fellow human beings, and they concoct absurd theories to “explain” things in ways that don’t rebound upon their own inadequacies.
You’re generally stuck with the looks that your parents bequeathed to you, but there’s no reason on earth why you can’t work on other traits. I suspect the 25-year-old me was pretty much unrecognisable from the 15-year-old me, because my reaction to a lack of dating success wasn’t to blame “cunts” and “bitches”, it was to take a long, hard, laceratingly self-critical look at the personality that I presented to the world, and worked incredibly hard to change the traits that clearly were giving off the wrong vibes. And it obviously worked: despite not changing my personal appearance at all (aside from a brief flirtation with contact lenses instead of glasses that I soon abandoned), my sex life in the last twenty years has been unrecognisably improved from what it was like in the ten years before that. And of course my social life too, as sex for me isn’t a separate issue from normal human interaction – as an absolute bare minimum, I have to actually like the person I’m with. (You’d think this was obvious, but apparently not).
But you can’t even get to first base without acknowledging that you almost certainly bear some responsibility – and very possibly quite a big responsibility – for your lack of dating success. Some of these people are complaining about this while simultaneously admitting that they’ve barely so much as talked to a woman, which is a bit like complaining that you’re starving while refusing to go and buy food (possibly because you might have to talk to an actual woman behind the counter, and ewww cooties).
If the “solution” to their “problem” involves non-consensual sex, then there’s nothing moral about it. You don’t alleviate suffering by arranging for someone else to suffer – especially since on the scale of suffering it’s generally accepted that being forced to have sex against your will is rather worse than not having sex at all.
It would depend entirely on how she described her problem. If she was incredibly whiny and entitled about it, and seemed to genuinely believe that she should have her own private sex slave to alleviate it regardless of what the man actually thought, my sympathy would be roughly zero. But I’ve never actually encountered anyone like that.
Indeed, can you link to a checkable example of someone behaving online in the way that you’ve just described, so I can have a look at the context? In fact, could you match me link for link if I was to do the equivalent with white male “incels”? I think we both know the answer to that one already.
A lot of physical attractiveness actually can be obtained. Much of it is basic hygiene and grooming. Wash your hair. Get regular haircuts including trims if you have long hair. Keep clean shaven, or if you have a beard keep it trimmed and clean. Wear clothes that fit well and are somewhat stylish. There are a lot of inexpensive retail chains so it doesn’t even take that much money. If you do have the money, many department stores have personal shoppers on staff. Enlist a female relative to help you if you’re worried you can’t make good choices.
I’m not saying that paying attention to your looks is necessary to be a good or worthy person. I’m not even saying it’s impossible to find a partner if you don’t care about them. I’m just saying, if you’re going to whine about being unattractive, it is possible to change at least some of that. Very few beautiful people are beautiful 100% naturally. Most put effort into it and anyone can do that if they choose to make it a priority. Because a lot of it really is cosmetic.
I forget who said it first, but the solution to the not-so-involuntary celibacy of “incels” is very, very simple:
If you want to be loved, be lovable.
Really. That’s all.
It’s not even terribly complicated to do: Make an effort to look your best. Be clean. Be healthy (or as healthy as you can be). Smell nice. Dress as well as your budget allows. Cultivate a pleasant personality. Do work that pays a decent wage and corresponds to your aptitudes. Feed your intellect. Have interests and hobbies (and no, that doesn’t mean “frequenting forums where assholes congregate to complain about what bitches and sluts all the women are”). Get fresh air and sunshine daily. Learn to converse pleasantly — not just to get laid, but simply to share a word with someone else once in a while. If you don’t know what else to talk about, the weather will do. Learn to love life, whatever yours may be like. Don’t worry about getting laid — it will happen when it happens, and not a minute sooner. If sex is your top priority, ur doin it rong. Nobody ever died for lack of it. And nobody is an evil person for just saying no to it, either.
Upbringing counts. here is an interesting article that might show some light on these attitudes:
Attitudes and Outcomes of Sex Ed: The US vs. the Netherlands
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/29920-attitudes-and-outcomes-of-sex-ed-the-us-vs-the-netherlands
Snippets (the last one is a doozy):
“I reached out to Schalet and asked her to walk me through her research. She told me, “Before the sexual revolution, there was a lot of emphasis on [the negative aspects of sex]. So why did that stay in the United States? I think one piece is the fact that, for the Dutch, they applied a concept that had existed before the sexual revolution, mainly that of having a courtship through the teenage period.”
“In the U.S., I think because of different ideas about the individual and a certain kind of concept of individualism, there’s a lot more ambivalence about whether or not young people at 14,15,16 can form love, whether they should. And so therefore sexuality remains this sort of unanchored force; it’s not contained in some ways within the context of an established sexual relationship.”
“Many “Purity Balls” resemble the traditional father-daughter dance. The only difference is that purity balls end with an exchange of vows between father and daughter (the daughters pledge their purity to the fathers, and promise to remain chaste until marriage). In some cases, girls as young as five are encouraged to attend. This community often gravitates toward the idea that fathers must protect their daughters from the dirty, horny boys who surround them.”
[talking about a TV show] “But they way they give their daughter sex education is appalling… it’s all about how boys are going to use her. They make the daughter, who’s in a very loving relationship, feel so bad about [sex]. It’s really interesting, because… if some sort of sex happens, the girl is put in the position of disappointing the parents.”
“Schalet explained, “There’s a real gender component there, and that’s also where the Dutch, I think, do things differently. They leave room for boys to think of themselves as romantic, of having feelings. And it’s not that American boys aren’t romantic, it’s that everything in their culture tells them that they shouldn’t be.”
That last snippet is particularly revealing.
So right from the beginning US kids are taught this this is a ‘war’. Girls (backed by their parents, church, etc) must ‘protect’ themselves from ‘dirty sex’. Boys are trained to just seek the sex and it is ‘not manly’ to have feelings and want a romantic relationship. That S**hate comment I posted earlier was a textbook example of that attitude.
This is a lose-lose situation. It damages females sexual confidence and freedom to enjoy themselves sexually, even within a relationship. It damages males ability to form relationships, that being romantic and wanting a relationship is (amazingly) actually unmanly.
If you are training kids this rubbish from an early age it is not surprising that some (of both sexes) get permanently damaged for the rest of their lives.
“Cultivate a pleasant personality.”
I’d be happier with this line if “pleasant personality” wasn’t so incredibly gendered.
Yes, I’m the “bossy” “abrasive” girl, why do you ask…
My wife and I are very much following the Dutch model when it comes to our kids – particularly where our daughter is concerned. There’s a vast amount of dangerous misinformation out there that badly needs countering, and while we’re not naïve enough to think that they’re both going to come running to us with questions, I don’t want them ever to be ignorant of reliable resources.
This whole post is just outrage bait. You know that Sluthate is a shock site, right? It traffics in extreme views and trolling to get a rise out of people. You might want to mention that.
There is a real discussion we could be having about the role of attractiveness in socialization. But I guess it’s easier to just say that anyone who thinks looks matter is just a murder-supporting, rape-apologizing, sexually-frustrated misogynist. It’s easier to get your page views up that way, at least. Sophisticated discussion is hard.
Please link to a post in this thread that actually says that.
Sluthate being a “Shock Site” would be more credible if there were fewer guys who took it seriously and supported the philosophies expounded upon there.
New poster, for someone who mentions sophisticated discussion, you’re really quick to create a straw-David in your post.
No one here has ever said that merely “thinking looks matter” makes you “a murder-supporting, rape-apologizing, sexually-frustrated misogynist.” In fact, there have been a lot of people in this thread saying that they find different appearances appealing or not appealing, but that they also find certain behaviors appealing or not appealing as well… with ‘incels’ often displaying very few of the physically unappealing traits but a boatload of the behaviorally unappealing traits.
Hence no one here wanting to touch them with a 32 and a half foot pole.
By your “real discussion about the role of attractiveness in socialization”…
… what do you ultimately hope to prove? Or what is the end result of that discussion? Are you merely interested in the “We need to not systematically discriminate against people who appear unusual* because they are people too” or are you more of the “Women need to stop being shallow, reconsider their preferences, and make sure every man can have relations if he desires them so no one will be involuntarily celibate” type.
Because if you’re the first, then heck yeah, that discussion needs to happen. Not necessarily here, because this is not the headquarters of that particular movement, but I’m sure you can find a place with google to discuss it in great detail! There might even be places that would let you help with activism!
Some people might be cool with having that discussion here.
If it’s the second, you’re not going to have much fun in this place.
If it’s somewhere between the two, Oh Sophisticated One, then feel free to elaborate, but don’t expect everyone to fall over in agreement with your mighty logic.
*I say unusual instead of unattractive, because we have already hit on how there’s a really wide array of attractive or unattractive, but people who look ‘odd’ due to deformities or developmental patterns or illness are legit discriminated against in a multitude of ways, from being people assuming they must be ‘stupid’ or people assuming that they must be ‘mean’ or ‘cursed’ to not being hired because the boss doesn’t want to ‘scare off customers’.
… that period at the end of the “Are you merely interested” long sentence of long-ness should be a question mark.
“Please link to a post in this thread that actually says that.”
Fair enough. Here’s some examples from above. You can ctrl+f to find where these are in the thread — go to “Older Comments” if these get buried. Not sure how to quote in this interface, but let’s just do it the old-fashioned way:
“women are always going to be repelled by those who denigrate them as bitches and sluts and trophy fuck objects, who exult over the corpses of innocent victims because they believe blood is the price the world must pay for their pain, who advocate for government-sponsored rape. That’s just downright vile.”
“And let’s not even try to imagine the twisted logic and “moral insanity” which could justify the kind of dehumanization and hatred of women (or just other people in general) that is common in these circles and which might even lead some guys to idolize mass murderers.”
“Incels like to … to focus solely on their own personal feelings, sexual frustration and/or festering bitterness.”
Some of these posters mention looks in a hand-waving gesturing (as in, yes, looks matter but let’s focus on how you’re the problem). But, more importantly, the post or article that we’re commenting on suggests that Sluthate is a place where incels who support rape and murder meet to blame everyone but themselves. This is bait for people to shock people and make them feel self-righteous. And it’s a flattening of what is an important issue: How attractiveness leads to different social and psychological outcomes. Rather than caricaturing one view by looking at a shock site. There’s actually real effects that your (largely uncontrollable) level of attractiveness has. And it’s discussed by more than just incels. Almost the entire discipline of Psychology agrees that’s looks play a huge role in socialization — both sexual or otherwise. But, no, tell me about how incels just need a personality makeover — or they just need to comb their hair.
I never know what to do with the “they’re trying to upset you on purpose” defense for awful things. Do you think that saying terrible things about women that you don’t necessarily believe specifically so that you can hurt women is somehow not misogynistic?
Not that I think that’s actually true in this instance, anyway. Pretty sure they mean every word.
New Poster…
You were asked to find examples of posters saying that “Anyone who cares about looks is a misogynist”.
You found posters saying “These misogynists are kind of vile for these reasons”.
Could you please try again?
Viscaria,
As much as I love The Onion, I blame The Onion.
Also, I think there’s a tendency to assume that if you make people upset or make people believe your lie is true, that you must be better/smarter/more clever than the people who got upset/didn’t ‘get it’/thought it was true.
…which isn’t really true.
Also, there’s a huge contemporary misunderstanding of satire coupled with a cultural acceptance of the “but it was satire” excuse.
For something to be good satire, it pretty much has to take the opposite stance to show the ridiculousness of that position. Where things like sluthate fail is because a lot of the people on that site do seem to share the same positions as their posts, and then they apply hyperbole.
So, instead of satirically trying to show how ridiculous the position is, they’re just making their beliefs sound worse than they are.
It’s weird.
*there should have been an even in that penultimate sentence. Beliefs sound even worse than they are.
They’re already pretty lousy beliefs.
LOL, New Poster. You just disproved your own argument.
No one is objecting to people discussing and dissecting the role physical appearance plays in how a person is treated in society. But that’s not what incels are doing.
…Yes, that is exactly what sl*thate.com is. That’s why it’s being mocked on a blog that mocks misogynists.