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Sluthate’s “shitty advice” forum, devoted to discussing such high-minded topics as “Do fat women have dirtier vaginas?” and “why is rape bad,” is a haven for embittered “incels” — self-described “involuntary celibates” — who’ve convinced themselves that they are too objectively unattractive and un-alpha to attract attention from the cruel and superficial “sluts” of the world — a category that seems to include all the women they find attractive.
Back when the forum was known as PUAhate, it was a regular hangout of one especially embittered incel, a young man known as Elliot Rodger, who last year killed six in Isla Vista California, and then himself, in what he called his “Day of Retribution” against women. Many of Sluthate’s regulars, unsurprisingly, have embraced “ER” as a kind of incel martyr.
Now they’ve found a new and improved hero: Andreas Lubitz, the troubled co-pilot who, French officials say, deliberately flew Germanwings Flight 9525 into a mountain in the French Alps.
In a topic entitled BREAKING: Co-pilot was incel and crashed the plane!!!, Sluthate regulars have embraced Lubitz as “one of them” — and are enthusiastically celebrating his alleged mass murder as the possible beginning of a “Beta uprising.”
“New high score, and in a much shorter time too,” a commenter calling himself gobman3000 wrote happily. “Damn, legitimate SLAYER.”
Alienfranco was even more enthusiastic:
What a fucking SLAYER.
Did you ever know that you’re my hero? You are the wind beneath my WINGS. …
Why go out with a whimper when you can go out with a BANG? An incel killing 150+ people will make a lot more of an impact than killing 1 asshole or a few assholes.
A large percentage of the 150+ people on that plane were sluts and Chads anyway.
Hopefully all these incel killings get to a point where society will fear autists/incels and give us $2000/month and subsidized prostitution to placate us from killing normalfags.
OmegaKV noted that many of the passengers on the plane “were teenagers who were vacationing,” concluding
This was DEFINITELY an incel motivated plane crash.
He couldn’t take it too see so many good looking and happy teenagers with gfs, experiencing the adolescence he always longed for but never got, so took advantage of the perfect opportunity to kill himself while taking the teenage normalfags with him.
PuaKiller agreed:
Yeah. He definitely knew what he was doing. I can only imagine what he was feeling in that moment. Wow. …
This one is going in the hall of fame!
Largely dismissing the news reports suggesting that Lubitz did, in fact, have a girlfriend, the regulars examined each new picture of the alleged mass murderer that appeared in the media for telltale signs of his incel status.
PJ1 was brutal in his assessment:
-looks like a manlet from his proportions. I’d honestly be surprised if he’s over 5 10
-small frame
-critical balding
-beta face
OldRooster1 agreed:
guy does look like an incel manlet that came to the realization that the status of being a pilot was not enough to overcome his 3.5/10 looks/body.
“Look at that frame, he’s about 60kg soaking wet,” Jigar added. “I’d be surprised if his wrists were a hair over 6 inches thick.”
Still another commenter labeled him a “betafaced framecel” — whatever that is — and “the kind of guy that’s INVISIBLE.”
These are harsh assessments, to be sure, and in some cases seem to have virtually no connection with the photographic evidence, but the Sluthate regulars tend to be equally harsh in their assessments of themselves. Thread-starter Zark_Muckerberg, for example, attaches a sig to each of his posts quantifying his romantic and sexual failures:
gfs: 0
kisses: 0
handjobs: 0
blowjobs: 0
intercourse: 0
Having convinced themselves that they will never be able to have a life equal to that of the world’s “good looking and happy … normalfags,” the Sluthaters feel Lubitz’ pain — or, at least, the pain they imagine he felt.
Flawed Mentat blamed the killings on an uncaring world that didn’t deliver Lubitz the “good woman” he deserved.
HE did not fire the first shot. Women and Society, blase, branded HIM as non human, invisible, an object of scorn and laughter. So, when it sunk in that all his effort was in vain, there were no good women awaiting him, life was gonna be just as empty, lonely and horrifying as before he even started training as a pilot, well, he probably logically decided to declare war back on the human race, since it was open in its war on him.
ThereIsNoGame agreed:
Just lol @ reddit comments saying how creepy it is that he didn’t think about the lives of all the people he killed.
Yeah, well what about all the people who never gave a fuck about him. He was probably treated like shit over and over again.
Society never looks itself in the mirror when it is to blame.
Don’t treat people like shit and shit wont happen. Why is that so hard to understand?
He ended his comment with this chilling warning-cum-threat.
looks like more people will need to die until the message is drilled in.
Zygominati directed his ire at a familiar target:
I blame feminism for this. In days gone by pilots would flirt with stewardesses and pinch their arses. They would leave their hotel room ajar for layover shenanigans. Now they are bus drivers in the sky that can’t even take a shit. This incel was probably sold a dream and after countless hours of flight time realised there is nothing there.
Meanwhile, the few Sluthaters who didn’t utterly dismiss the news reports of Lubitz having a girlfriend seized on the reports that the two had broken up — and blamed the girlfriend for “cucking” him. As Patriarch put it,
If its true that his girlfriend cucked or dumped him, just imagine how smug this entitled shitcunt must feel like right now. Looking at him, she was a 4 at best but now she gets her own little fairytale drama story and she gets to go on TV and talk about how awful she feels and how she never expected this to happen. In the aftermath, a bunch of whiteknights will whiteknight her into oblivion and probably donate a million € to her fundme so she can learn to deal with this tragedy…. Fucking feminist shitcunt society
It goes without saying that all of these embittered rants are based almost entirely on projection. We know very little about Lubitz, or what might have motivated him to (allegedly) crash the plane, killing 149 innocent human beings and himself.
While news reports suggest that he had suffered from depression and from some other mental illnesses as yet unnamed, these revelations raise more questions than they answer. Depression can certainly contribute to suicide, but mass murder? Mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence than victimizers.
While it seems clear that Lubitz was not literally an “incel” — he apparently did have a girlfriend — it’s certainly possible that he crashed the plane because he was upset over a breakup with that girlfriend, or angry at women in general.
That’s not a conclusion we can draw based on looking at Lubitz’s “waist-hip-ratio” or the size of his wrists. It’s a possibility we can raise based on our understanding of how murder/suicides unfold in the real world.
As I pointed out yesterday, murder/suicide is overwhelmingly a male crime, and the victims are often wives, girlfriends or exes. Breakups often trigger rage in men, and a few take this rage out on the women they feel have wronged them. Or, in extreme cases, on women in general. The intended targets of Elliot Rodger’s rampage were what the “spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut[s]” in a local sorority. (Luckily, he was barred at the door and his plan collapsed.)
But even if Lubitz was driven by “incel rage” or something much like it, it’s worth pointing out that this rage is based on bullshit. Elliot Rodger was not objectively unattractive; his problems with women came from within, from a mixture of embittered entitlement, self-hatred and an assortment of other psychological demons.
Similarly, the rage of Sluthate’s incels is driven not by the actual behavior of women in the real world but by their fucked-up ideas about women — and themselves. Sluthaters hate themselves as much as they hate “sluts,” and project their own hyper-critical assessments of their own looks onto the women they think are perpetually judging them and finding them wanting. Ironically, they themselves view women with the same hyper-critical eyes, dismissing all but a handful of young, conventionally attractive women as “fugly hambeasts” and the like.
Sluthate reinforces a poisonous and supremely self-defeating way of looking at the world. Whether or not Lubitz was driven by “incel rage,” I think we have every reason to worry that Sluthate and other internet forums devoted to “incels” may be breeding more “heroes” like Elliot Rodger and, possibly, Andreas Lubitz.
In adulthood looks have very little to do with things, within a reasonable range around the average.
The most successful men I ever met with ‘pulling women’ came in all body shapes and all levels of looks. What they all had in common was that they were interesting people, fun to be with, often with a great sense of humour and terrific conversationalists. People were attracted to them because it was great spending time with them.
The whole school experience seems to scar so many males (in particularly) but also some females. But everyone seems to forget a simple fact, kids mature at different ages and rates. Those who mature younger and develop their primary and secondary sexual characteristics the earliest tend to do better in the school mating game, which is a bit of a duh thing. By the early late teens and 20’s, when this all evens out, things change considerably.
But some people apply this experience to the rest of their lives.
Ok such is life that that other guy shot up and put on muscle and started growing a beard 2 years before you. Of course they did better with females than you did, they were showing the primary indicators that they were sexually mature and you weren’t, in simple terms you looked like a kid. But by the time you were 17-20 then you were even again. Get over it.
I think this is the source of that ‘20%’ myth. Yes a percentage of adolescent females will develop their visual sexual characteristics before the others do. Plus females usualy hit puberty a couple of years before the males do.
Of course males gazes will gravitate towards them because they showing sexual maturity. The same applies to males at a bit later age. And it is natural that those early developers will start dating and having sex earler than the others. Equally it is natural that those females will tend to date males 1-2 years older than them, because they want to date someone that is also showing sexual maturity (duh).
This is not ‘looks’ it is just basic level signalling to each other. It would be more worrying if a early developer, showing all the signs of sexual maturity, was sexually interested in someone else who was still showing all the child visual indicators.
All this is normal, but some males (in particular, though it affects some late developing females too) can’t get past that time, no matter that everything has changed now they are older. They are fixated on it.
I struggle to understand these male ‘nerd’ complaints. Academically good, or even gifted kids come in all shapes and size and also develop physically at different ages just like everyone else. Being smart has nothing to do with their relative ‘success’ with the opposite sex during adolescence. At least for males that is.
Unfortunately smart females do tend to suffer, with far too many males avoiding those who appear smarter (or even just as smart) as them (which is pathetic). Despite all their endless complaints male ‘nerds’ are far better off than females ones, especially during adolescence.
The bizarre thing these days is that some of these males nerds seem to really hate female nerds . WTF?
Back in my day where I grew up it was quite different. After physical maturity hit and it had all evened out over a few years (with all the associated heartaches and disasters along the way), the smart males and smart females ended up hooking up with each other, which is a bit of a ‘duh’ as they had far more in common. They might have taken a bit of time to find each other, but most of them did in the end, usually when they got to university.
I have a horrible suspicion that many of these self proclaimed ‘nerds’ …are nothing but. Just because a person plays computer games all day doesn’t make them a ‘nerd’, they’ve actually got to be smart as well.
I don’t understand how the “incels” quoted in the post get from point A to point B.
Point A: Women won’t have sex with me.
Point B: Therefore, women and men who have lots of sex are all evil, and mass murderers are good… because they might have had dating trouble, so they’ll bring attention to The Cause!!!
Which is all sorts of WTF and ?!?… People here have made awesome logical arguments, and I can’t think of anything else to add, so here’s a personal analogy:
I kind of understand the getting-bitter-at-society bit. I’m often awkward and introverted person myself, and I find it easy to slip into self-pity mode over one thing or another. For example, I’ve got a kind of ADHD that makes me perpetually bad at meeting deadlines, and the way this gets treated as a horrible, irredeemable fault by some university departments and businesses discourages me. I wish some people wouldn’t think needing more help with deadlines was a terrible problem.
On the other hand, I realize that sometimes it’s very useful to set a deadline. Sometimes things just need to get done, and I should be direct with people and tell them if something is going to take me longer than what they originally wanted.
I’m not going to make myself liked – or rather, create favourable conditions in which people might like me (tip for the incels: you can’t MAKE anyone want to have sex with you) – by saying “ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD AT DEADLINES SUCK AND DESERVE TO DIE. PEOPLE WHO KILL PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD AT DEADLINES ARE MY HERO.. and, er, by the way, you should be nice to me and give me job opportunities and social prestige!”
Had a quick look at this ‘sluthate’ things and some of them make the MRMs look good. Unreal, what is wrong with them?
This caught my eye, a comment on a thread, the self contradictory ‘logic’ is obvious.
“Aspies are the best guys for a LTR”
“That’s what I have seen. As long as they are good looking then being aspie will grant them some LTR with SUB6 girls. I have seen this happening a lot… Many retarded good looking guys will eventually start to date a girl and they will never suffer from inceldom. Girls think of them as a cute, perfect boy toy and boyfriend, some of these girls still teach these aspies how to fuck like a man. It’s like theory of evolution always setting up a way for aspies who have good genetics to pass it on.
In the last months I have been stalking these couples on fb, guys who are really aspies and have low status, few friends and average job dating nice girls. You watch the way the guy talks to her girlfriend and think How come this idiot has a girlfriend like that? What a fucking weak personality many of them show off. Looks is everything.”
“Looks is (sic) everything”, obviously not. Maybe not being an total asshole helps a little bit?
Rather long-winded post. Also, according to incel logic, I guess I’m supposed to feel bad for being single, too, since as a bisexual woman I’m supposed to be having all the sex in the world. And I’m not! Gender and sexuality stereotypes owe me something, dammit!!
I don’t know how to begin addressing all that’s been said here, there is just too much of it. I’d ask that (some of) you could stop being so unpleasant towards people who disagree with you though.
I really don’t see the sense in dismissing the suffering of incels – I’m repeating myself here, again, because I don’t really see the alternative.
1. Why are you so ready to believe that, against their own testimony, it is within the reasonable power of male incels to become sexually desirable? Isn’t this time to bow to the ‘lived experience’ of the people you are talking too, rather than talking over them and presenting your own pet just world theory of how it all works (parallels here to mansplaining, whitesplaining and so on – this is how it feels!’ Not to mention just the sheer common sense nature that, well, since sexual attractiveness clearly isn’t distributed equally, those at the bottom of the pile might go without for a long time.
2. With that aside, why doesn’t their suffering matter? I don’t think the vast majority of incels think that they should have women forced to sleep with them. But its certainly true that their problem deserves moral consideration, in that their suffering has moral weight.
Before you judge, think of what you’d say if you were talking to a black, overweight, and brainy woman who because of the afmorementioned traits wasn’t able to find a mate. I imagine you wouldn’t support forcing men to sleep with her, but equally I don’t think your response to her suffering would be ITS OWN OWN FAULT I WAS BLACK ONCE NOW IM FINE GOD SO ENTITLED RAPE RAPE RAPPPEEE.
Because I’ve seen the pics that they post of themselves. As I said, they’re not a bunch of a bridge trolls. If they could manage to be decent human beings who respect women and have attractive and charming personalities, I could very, very easily see them having success in the dating world. Instead, their personalities are so repellent that anything and everything that they have going for them in the looks department becomes totally ineffective.
But as we’ve all explained to you, it doesn’t have moral weight because sex is not a biological need. I’m still curious as to what moral consideration you think that we should give it.
1. Once again, you do not listen. To a man, “incels” refuse to lower their own standards for acceptable mates. They must bed an HB10. Nothing less is acceptable. They refuse to consider the idea that maybe they need to do some work to get laid.
2. How does their suffering have moral weight? What are you talking about?
3. An “incel” can work on his personality and presentation, and general attitude. A “black, overweight, and brainy” woman cannot change these three qualities. She cannot become white (or possess the privilege that comes with it). She cannot lose weight (studies have shown that most people who lose weight gain it back, even when sticking to the same diet http://thisisthinprivilege.org/faq ). She cannot be less brainy. Your example is like comparing apples and frogs. You are comparing things that do not compare.
We would respond that way (minus insisting that we’d magically stopped being black, which, unlike personality, social skills, grooming, and fashion-sense can’t be changed) if she kept insisting that the government should pay men to sleep with women like her. We would respond that way (minus insisting that we’d magically stopped being black) if she kept saying that someday women like her were going to snap and commit mass murder.
And by respond that way, I don’t mean that we’d blame her for being black, overweight, or smart. I mean that we’d get mad that she was threatening men with mass murder in an effort to pressure them into sleeping with her.
@isidore
Don’t forget the part where Miss Hypothetical is single because all the guys around her are terrible (fatphobic racists), while Gandy is single because he’s terrible (a rapey-sounding asshole who rage-trolls feminist blogs and refers to dating as “Mating”).
Even apples and frogs might be too similar.
@M., totally agreed.
Whatever for? You’re defending a toxic site called SLUTHATE. Hello, hatemongering? Why are you defending that, and then coming back to whine about your poor widdle wounded feelings but not addressing any of the actual points people made to refute you? Hmmmm…could it be that YOU GOT NOTHIN’???
Fuck you, you fucking fuck.
There are other problems with his hypothetical too. There’s plenty of evidence that shows that people, especially women, get rejected regularly for being overweight or for being black. There’s no evidence to suggest that men under 6′ or with wrists under 6” in circumference or with “feminine mid faces” (whatever the fuck a mid face is) find it impossible to get dates. The guys at sluthate nitpick their appearances to a ridiculous degree and assume that all women do the same!
Furthermore, the majority of them repeatedly deny evidence that women also get rejected for not being sufficiently attractive, and they repeatedly mock non-white women and overweight women (overweight, of course, can mean anything from actually being overweight to being 5’4” and over 105 lbs) for wanting sex/complain when they find out that these women do get sex/complain that they’ve occasionally been reduced to sleeping with these women! Basically, he’s from a site that blames women for being overweight or not being white and complains when they get sex/express a desire for sex.
And then he goes and compares his ilk to just such women and claims that he and the other guys who hate those women are the oppressed ones.
Verily, a perfect circle of bullshit.
I don’t think it’s the fact you’re disagreeing with us that makes us so “unpleasant”, Sir Tone Police. We have disagreements all the time here and we manage to not ‘splode into rage mode.
I think it’s the fact that you’re trying to make an argument that women need to be sexually subservient to men, by hook or by crook. And seeing as how this is a feminist blog, that’s going to go over like a lead balloon.
So, in agreement with Lea, fuck you you fucking fuck.
Oh, FFS.
Gandy:
No, this is exactly what they think. This is the problem people have with incels. They absolutely believe they are entitled to sex with a conventionally attractive woman, and that women are “b*tches” and “sl*ts” for not sleeping with them, and that society is discriminating against them by not providing/forcing conventionally attractive women to sleep with them. Did you not read the OP? And you’ll notice that this is exactly what people have been criticizing about incels. No one has been making fun of them for not having sex, or for being lonely. They are being criticized for being misogynist assholes.
Everyone has pointed this out to you, but you just don’t seem to be able to (or want to) get it.
Gandy, dude, you’re the one talking to a bunch of so-called “incels” and ignoring what they have to say. Right now. Here on this thread.
“Moral weight,” fuck, what a deliberately vague term. You’re implying that something should change but you’re purposely not telling us what it is. What do you think we should do for incels? What is morally demanded of women/society at large? Is it saying “aw, that’s too bad for you?” Because I’m willing to do that one.
Dear people who aren’t getting laid but wish they were getting laid: aw, that’s too bad for you.
Is that it? Or is there something else that we need to do to meet our mysterious moral obligations?
I’m not replying directly to the troll, since I’m pretty sure I’m one of the big mean meany pants for telling them to fall in a pit of legos because they said something gross and rapey. (How dare I point it out! Saying something is bad is just as bad as the bad thing! How dare.) Also, they refuse to actually engage in any of the very important points (and good research) we’ve brought up. F for ‘failure to engage in conversation’.
Anyway, I second (third) Viscaria and others.
What is the end game here, then? What do you want? What does your perfect world look like? How do you think we should get there?
@Gandy:
Because attractiveness is not a single point towards which everyone must gravitate if they wish to get laid, but a subjective opinion that differs for every person? Because the things that you think are unattractive (height, weight) may be attractive to some people, or irrelevent to others?
Because we don’t have, as counter evidence, our own experience of change, but our own experience of finding people who find us desirable without us having to change?
It’s not that their “suffering” doesn’t matter, it’s that it is entirely self-inflicted with no rational basis in reality. I’m sure the pain is real, and I can empathize with that, but at some point you have to step back and go “no, sex is not something you should be basing your entire self-worth on, if you aren’t getting the amount you want then no amount of foot-stamping and whining is going to change it.”
Nthing the request for you to spell out what this means. Who has to do the moral considering, to whom does that “moral weight” mean something? Who should care about the incel’s sex life beyond the incel themself?
Seriously, another glaring omission. Lots of people here have shared how they didn’t date until well into their 20’s, 30’s or ever. Magically, we’ve not blamed half the population for it, nor had any grandiose plots to mass murder entire groups of people in response. Funny, that.
Here’s my ‘incel’ story.
I never dated at all in high school. I focused on my studies more, but I was also one of the weird gothy/artsy/nerd folks in a sea of preps and jocks. There were three of us. Two girls, one gay boy. Yeah, we all graduated single.
In college, my sophomore year, I had my first few dates; with women. We messed around, but it never got serious. First time I had sex was with a woman at 24, first time with a guy was at 26.
Then I was largely single (with occasional dates-that-went-badly) until I was 29. Now I’ve been with the same guy for the past three years. During our relationship, I had some major health problems that meant we went without sex for over 10 months, and the relationship survived (it wasn’t even rocky).
All this, and I have a higher than average sex drive. I’ve had sex with 4 people in my entire life. Few enough times that I could count them. Does that make me an ‘incel’? Was I an ‘incel’ up to the age of 24? Did the world (or men, or women) owe me something then? Why or why not?
I love how Gandy assumes that black, overweight, intelligent women automatically can’t find “mates.” True, the conventional female beauty standard is thin and white. This does not mean only thin white women can find partners. I also find it weird that he added brainy in there. Is that trait supposed to be unattractive to men?
Also, if fat black women are also incels in our culture, why is there no chadhate forums where fat black single women advocate government subsided rape of men and celebrate Aileen Wournos? All his example does is prove our point that incel anger is about entitled rage, not about sadness at not fitting into conventional beauty standards.
Gandy, people might be nicer to you if you actually engaged and listened to what people are saying rather than just rephrasing your original point over and over.
Would I be technically “incel”, considering I haven’t had sex for the past two some-odd years? Or would I not be because I’ve had sex before?
Because I manage my sexual needs just fine without having a partner, thankyouverymuch.
That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t mind a partner, but I don’t feel like I need one to “meet my biological needs”, nor does it mean I want to get one any way possible.