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"A man’s nut is sacred," pickup douchebag Roosh V declares. And it gets worse from there.

One Warning Sign A Guy Is a Rapey Creep: He's This Guy
Roosh V: One Giant Warning Sign

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The lovely piece of human garbage that is Roosh Valizadeh recently posted a helpful little list of “6 Warning Signs A Girl Isn’t Worth A Relationship.”

It’s a bit of an ironic list, in that Roosh, a self-described expat “love tourist” who makes his living giving men terrible dating advice, inadvertently provides any “girls” reading his list 6 Clear Warning Signs That Roosh is an Angry Sexual Predator Who Should Be Avoided at All Costs.

Roosh starts by warning his readers about the terrible plague of the music changers.

The first thing I do when get a girl over to my shack is put on some music. Depending on the mood I’m trying to set, I’ll go with something like The Weeknd, Vanessa da Mata, or Michael Jackson. As I’m making drinks, if she goes to the laptop, cuts off my music, then pulls up her own music on YouTube, she’s only getting fucked that night and never again. Even though she wants to play “this one song,” I cut her crap off and put mine back on. I say, “If you wanted to listen to your music you should’ve invited me to your place.”

Anyone that touchy about someone changing his music is not exactly great boyfriend material.

Several more items reveal Roosh to be someone who bristles with rage whenever a woman, in his mind, disrespects him. If a woman texts someone while on a date and doesn’t apologize for it, for example, Roosh feels that “you might as well hand her your balls.”

And then his list gets very dark indeed. TRIGGER WARNING for rape apologia dark.

.

.

.

The Fifth Horseman of the Warning Sign Apocalypse is this: Asking you to postpone your orgasm so she can gain more pleasure.”

As Roosh sees it,

If you’re about to bust your nut and a girl does tells you “No” or “Wait,” she’s an inconsiderate slut who is now causing you direct harm.

Wat.

A man’s nut is sacred, and for her to impede that should be criminal. I’m serious.

Backing away now.

One time a girl postponed my nut and then I lost it completely. I couldn’t get it back and I was left with minor groin pain. I never contacted her again.

What a terrible assault on Roosh’s manhood. He once experienced MINOR GROIN PAIN. That evil harlot should be locked up for life for the crime of a dude not having an orgasm once.

If all this seems a bit rapey, well, it gets worse with item #6: “Not urging you to continue pumping even if it’s starting to cause her discomfort,” in which Roosh explains that girlfriend-quality “girls” shouldn’t be permitted to say “stop” after agreeing to let a dude’s penis in.

I’ll tell you what love is: when a girl begs you to keep going even though you know she already came, even though she’s drying up, and even though you know it’s causing her pain.

I suppose it could be “love.” It could also be a rather different emotion known as “fear.” Fear that the angry, woman-hating asshole fucking you, who seems to erupt in rage whenever a woman disagrees with him, will flip out if you ask him to stop. And will keep going regardless.

If she tells you to stop the millisecond after she gets her nut, without you getting yours, I want you to tell her that the point of having sex with women is so a man doesn’t have to use his hand, and that she has performed below the hand.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

That’s why we do all this shit to bang women—to get our nut. If she can’t do that for us, then she’s useless as a living being.

If anyone tries to tell you that the “red pill” is really just about self-improvement for men, ask them to explain this.

If someone shows you an article from A Voice for Men arguing that “rape culture isn’t real,” show them this, and ask why they ran a long-two part interview with Roosh in which the interviewer wrote that Roosh was “a deep thinker,” and “a layered, tempered and earnest guy, who truly wants to help other men in their most basic and primal of life goals,” adding “I got nothing but respect for the guy.”

Roosh, you may recall, has also proposed legalizing rape on private property, which he bizarrely claims will bring an end to rape. I think it’s fairly clear that Roosh has no interest in ending rape. What he wants is for people to stop calling it rape. As he sees it, women saying “no” or “stop” or “get off me” are all an affront to the “sacred nut.” And we can’t have that.

EDIT: Minor edits to clarify a point.

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Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

The question of whether behaviour is a result of personality or mental disorder is something we have to deal with a lot in the law. It affects both the procedure at trial and the possible disposal of the case (hospital order or prison).

It can be tricky to judge where the line is to be drawn so the only admissible evidence on this issue at trial is the opinion of at least two psychiatrists at least one of whom must be registered under S 12 of the Mental Health Act (i.e has a specialism in forensic psychiatry).

They must find that the defendant has a recognised mental illness.

Of course, like any expert evidence it’s only opinion so the jury are free to reject it and come to their own conclusion. So in effect we do leave the assessment as to whether it’s personality or illness to the layperson.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

But it’s an opinion that’s reached on the basis of a far higher standard of evidence than “he said something nasty on the internet”.

Ice and Indigo
Ice and Indigo
5 years ago

My son has autism. He’s sweet, loving, friendly and absolutely non-sexist. When you struggle to pick up social norms, bigotry can slide right off you.

He also talks way more sense than Roosh, and he’s only semi-verbal.

Ice and Indigo
Ice and Indigo
5 years ago

Incidentally, if you read psychology books that talk about sociopathy and autism, they tend to present them as near-opposites. For instance:

Sociopaths can tell what other people are feeling, but don’t care. People on the spectrum can find it hard to know what other people are feeling (though it’s a spectrum, and a lot of people work hard to get better at their social skills) – but if they understand, they care. Some care so much they come across as awkward because they get overwhelmed and freeze up.

Sociopaths have unusually low levels of fear. People on the spectrum tend to have unusually high levels: a lot of ‘autistic’ behaviour is basically anxiety-management.

Sociopaths are irresponsible. People on the spectrum take rules very seriously – which for many, includes a deep preoccupation with ethics and morality.

Sociopaths tend to be charming. People on the spectrum can be charming – my son’s adorable – but social skills don’t come easily to them.

People on the spectrum aren’t saints: they’re just no nicer or nastier than anyone else. Some folk on the spectrum aren’t particularly nice, but that’s not because they’re on the spectrum, that’s because they’re people. Others I’ve known have been some of the kindest, finest and best people you could hope to meet. The key thing is this: conflating autism and sociopathy is factually incorrect in a really major way.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ I&I

I think a lot of the problem is we only get our perceptions of autistic people from movies; so it’s that whole rocking quietly in a corner cliche. I used to do legal work for an organisation that cared for severely autistic people. I had to attend a lot of meetings with the directors. I once reported back that the only nice person was a particular bloke. He was always very friendly and chatty.

“You do know he’s one of their service users don’t you?”

Just goes to show how misinformed you can be.

Ice and Indigo
Ice and Indigo
5 years ago

Yeah, it’s one of those subjects that most of us know very little about until we encounter it personally – and those ubiquitous ‘rude maths whizz’ portraits really don’t help. (And neither do all the self-diagnosed it’s-my-right-to-be-rude people online, my goodness I would like a word with them.) Tip for everyone who doesn’t know anyone on the spectrum in real life: Autism is a very various world. As the saying goes, if you’ve met on person with autism, you’ve met one person with autism.

But then, it’s ok not knowing things; nobody can know what they haven’t learned. It’s just pronouncing on things you don’t understand that’s a problem. Roosh isn’t like my son. Roosh probably thinks people like my son shouldn’t be allowed.

Kestrel
Kestrel
5 years ago

I have been diagnosed with Aspergers. I struggle to understand body language. However, that isn’t permission to treat others poorly. It means I have to be honest with people and sincerely apologize when I misinterpret things. My actions and words are always my responsibility.

Wetherby
Wetherby
5 years ago

As the saying goes, if you’ve met on person with autism, you’ve met one person with autism.

Absolutely. I know a lot of autistic kids, and they have no more behavioural traits in common than do neurotypical ones. There are chatty ones, silent ones, warm and loving ones, detached ones, you name it.

When I edit other people’s writing, I refuse to allow terms like “autistic” and “schizophrenic” through without comment unless they’re in a diagnostically appropriate context. Not only is their constant misuse annoying in itself, it’s also damaging as it creates wholly erroneous impressions and expectations.

because reasons
because reasons
5 years ago

My interpretation of Doosh:
“Raping feeemales is my right as a man, and would be so much easier if they weren’t always trying to have feelings or physical reactions. I mean, who wants to bang a dried-up, crying slut who has her own tastes in music, amirite?”
Commence barfing. I seriously wish he could be mandated to have “rapist” tattooed on his forehead so women would never have to be traumatized by him again…because we all know he’s raped before and will do it again. And brag about it…gross. And teach other men how to do it…disfuckinggusting.

As for the previous commenters who think equating sociopathic traits with Asperger’s is ok. Hell to the nope.

Ice and Indigo
Ice and Indigo
5 years ago

*waves to Kestrel*

Nice autistic/Aspergers people for the win!

Robert
Robert
5 years ago

My son’s therapist strongly suspects that some of my difficulties in relating to him are due to my being on the spectrum. I tend to come up with rules about how to handle given interpersonal situations, and that approach doesn’t fit him very well. I’ve gotten better at it since then.

Both of my sons have diagnosed mental illnesses, and do not show typical asshole behaviors. So there’s my anecdata. I think some people are uncomfortable with the idea of ‘this person is consciously and deliberately doing things that hurt other people’ without pathologizing the behavior. It’s bad, wicked and evil, yes; but not necessarily sick.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

Wait. What? Dating advice from… Kate Minter? On WHTM? Is it April 1st already?

This in particular (wow):

“Two, there’s always the worry that I’ll run into assholes like this” Actually, I think it’s easy to avoid these types when you are confident in yourself and have boundaries.

–Says the woman, known for her own misogynist and racist views, who married one the worst a**holes known on the Web, a first-grade misogynist who openly advocates violence against and rape of women (or is it just the feminists? ugh). How precious.

“If you let those guidelines slide, yes, they start coming out of the woodwork. For instance, you don’t accept last minute dates, you don’t let a man make sexual allusions, you don’t initiate contact with him, etc. For your effort, you get him initiating contact with you, treating you with respect, looking forward to spending time with you.”

–Right, that after Dear Hubby boasted openly, as a way of explanation to his Roissy buddies as to how he, an avowed hater of women in general and marriage in particular, would marry again (is it his 3rd or 4th time?), could not resist Kate’s offer after she sent him “certain pictures.” This is still well documented on the Web, for all to see.

Who are you kidding, Kate? Oh, what delusion.

“Just remember: love does not hurt. Love does not degrade.”

–Says the woman who married one the worst… etc. (see point 1).

I’m sorry, but this is just too much.

friday jones
friday jones
5 years ago

After seeing how Roosh refers to orgasms as “nutting” and “getting my nut,” from now one we should refer to orgasms as “egging” or “getting my egg.”

Next weekend I am for sure going to bust an egg on my boyfriend!

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

P.S. To Kate Minter:

“If you let those guidelines slide, yes, they start coming out of the woodwork. For instance, you don’t accept last minute dates, you don’t let a man make sexual allusions, you don’t initiate contact with him, etc. For your effort, you get him initiating contact with you, treating you with respect, looking forward to spending time with you.”

–Says the woman who uses a photo of her headless backside as her avatar. Respect (,) my a**. Oy.

OK, now I’m done. 🙂

friday jones
friday jones
5 years ago

So do the ivory-billed woodpecker and the dodo bird alternate on the “Oogah-Chakas?” Because that could make for a nice effect!

friday jones
friday jones
5 years ago

@Buttercup said: “Anyway, I call bullshit on this scenario being all that common – more often, if someone’s finishing first, it’s the guy. Roosh doesn’t strike me as the type who’s experienced or considerate enough to delay climax.”

Buttercup, that probably mostly happens when Roosh is at a bordello that doesn’t have ceiling mirrors. It’d really distracting for him to have to use his imagination to see his own face, and gazing into his own dead soulless eyes is the only way he can “get his nut.”

NicolaLuna
NicolaLuna
5 years ago

Thanks for all the internet hugs – much appreciated.

And Lisa, whilst I understand that you didn’t intend to hurt or offend anybody, diagnosing someone online just isn’t cool. Unless you are a doctor and unless you have had an assessment session or two with the people you are diagnosing, please just stop it. It’s perfectly easy to comment on how shit they are without calling them mentally ill.

LBT
LBT
5 years ago

Okay, seriously, how many people go over and just change someone’s music without asking or discussing it first? I don’t touch anyone’s computer without asking first! It’s rude!

And second, why are so many terms for male orgasm so UNPLEASANT. Busting a nut? Really?

RE: Dvarghundspossen

People with a normal range of emotions find that pattern rather quickly via gut feeling. People with emotional damages need to find this pattern via conscious thinking, which takes more time

Thanks for bringing this up! I sorta see that kind of gut feeling as a rule of thumb way to respond; fast but not necessarily completely accurate. However, it works for a lot of things, which is why we have it! Consciously pondering through everything takes time and effort. It’s algorithms vs. heuristics.

RE: Allen Robertshaw

It affects both the procedure at trial and the possible disposal of the case (hospital order or prison).

Dunno your country, but in the US at least, the insanity defense is notoriously a last-ditch effort. It has a 99% failure rate, and people tend to hate it, or at least they did ten years ago when I read the book on it. I haven’t heard anything that says that’s changed here.

RE: autism

In my social cricle, there’s actually quite an overlap between multi folks and autistic folks (don’t ask me why!) and I’m kind of glad that I got to learn a little about what autism actually IS, rather than what the books told me it was.

It also helped me really, REALLY dislike anti-vaxxers.

RE: friday jones

Next weekend I am for sure going to bust an egg on my boyfriend!

This just made Sneak send me a mental image of you cracking a confetti egg on him.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ LBT

It’s pretty rare for it to succeed here (England) too. The test is that the defendant “did not at the time of committing the offence know right from wrong”. That’s a pretty high hurdle as you can imagine.

We also have “diminished responsibility”. That’s not a complete defence (as insanity is) but can reduce murder to manslaughter. The test for that is: “he was suffering from such abnormality of mind (whether arising from a condition of arrested or retarded development of mind or any inherent causes or induced by disease or injury) as substantially impaired his mental responsibility for his acts and omissions in doing or being a party to the killing”.

That’s a bit more common, especially as quite often the CPS will accept a plea on this basis rather than risk a trial.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Aunt Edna | March 23, 2015 at 12:55 pm
–Says the woman who uses a photo of her headless backside as her avatar. Respect (,) my a**. Oy.

OK, now I’m done. 🙂

I appreciate your first message to Mrs. Minter (as it said a lot of things I wanted to say, but bit my tongue on), but I’d like to just stop you right here.

There’s no correlation between how much skin anyone’s showing off to how much respect they deserve. Let’s not throw ourselves into this style of woman on woman slut-shaming.

I hear this argument a lot from women who want to tear down other women, and it’s not cool.

friday jones
friday jones
5 years ago

I was hoping for a Cadbury Creme actually…..

because reasons
because reasons
5 years ago

@friday jones
I know we are constantly making nutty omelets over at my house. LOL

LBT
LBT
5 years ago

RE: friday jones

From Sneak: D: HOW WOULD YOU GET IT OUT OF YOUR HAIR?

RE: Paradoxical Intention

I thought the point of the mocking comment wasn’t Minter’s icon, it’s that she had it WHILE simultaneously claiming that you must have men make all the first move and do these things so as to get a good relationship. I thought it was the hypocrisy being mocked, not the icon itself.

Alan Robertshaw
Alan Robertshaw
5 years ago

@ LBT

It’s pretty rare for it to succeed here (England) too. The test is that the defendant “did not at the time of committing the offence know right from wrong”. That’s a pretty high hurdle as you can imagine.

We also have “diminished responsibility”. That’s not a complete defence (as insanity is) but can reduce murder to manslaughter. The test for that is: “he was suffering from such abnormality of mind (whether arising from a condition of arrested or ret***ed development of mind or any inherent causes or induced by disease or injury) as substantially impaired his mental responsibility for his acts and omissions in doing or being a party to the killing”.

That’s a bit more common, especially as quite often the CPS will accept a plea on this basis rather than risk a trial.

[Offending word redacted to avoid moderation hiccup]

ceebarks
ceebarks
5 years ago

Person: Man, I’d super-like to find a decent human being as a romantic partner, but I don’t want to wade through a bunch of obnoxious shitlords to find him.

Kate: ooh! ooh! I’m MARRIED to an obnoxious shitlord! Let me tell you how to find one!

Person: No, I said I do NOT want an obnoxious shitlord

Kate: I can’t heeear you

friday jones
friday jones
5 years ago

If egg is good for your hair, Cadbury creme eggs are probably even better, so leave it in! Just watch out for ants.

LBT
LBT
5 years ago

RE: Alan

Yeah, we don’t have diminished responsibility here, as far as I know. (IANAL.) There’s just insanity or not. I… might have learned about this because it’s a common multi thought experiment. <.<

RE: ceebarks

You made me laugh in the library. Well played!

because reasons
because reasons
5 years ago
because reasons
because reasons
5 years ago

holy crap! It embedded! Woah, the mammoth gods must be on my side today.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

LBT | March 23, 2015 at 3:28 pm
I thought the point of the mocking comment wasn’t Minter’s icon, it’s that she had it WHILE simultaneously claiming that you must have men make all the first move and do these things so as to get a good relationship. I thought it was the hypocrisy being mocked, not the icon itself.

Eh, maybe? Just the way it was worded put me off a bit.

ceebarks | March 23, 2015 at 3:45 pm
Person: Man, I’d super-like to find a decent human being as a romantic partner, but I don’t want to wade through a bunch of obnoxious shitlords to find him.

Kate: ooh! ooh! I’m MARRIED to an obnoxious shitlord! Let me tell you how to find one!

Person: No, I said I do NOT want an obnoxious shitlord

Kate: I can’t heeear you

Yup, that’s pretty much that conversation in a nutshell. Except you forgot the part where she recommended sexist dating books, complete with calling women “bitches”.

LBT
LBT
5 years ago

That’s fair, paradoxicalIntention.

creepy cupcake
creepy cupcake
5 years ago

What about men who suffer from premature ejaculation?

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

creepy cupcake | March 23, 2015 at 4:39 pm
What about men who suffer from premature ejaculation?

Obviously they’re betas who couldn’t get laid in the first place! Premature Ejaculation doesn’t happen to ALPHA MALES! Our large, virile, throbbing members are the PINNACLE of male (and therefore the best) anatomy! [/sarcasm]

because reasons
because reasons
5 years ago

I suspect that Doosh wouldn’t even see premature ejaculation as something to “suffer” from. He’d probably think it was great…”bust a nut” super quick so you have to spend less time with a dirty feeeemale. Then again, this is the guy who thinks “minor groin pain” is the worst affliction known to man.

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
5 years ago

@friday jones –

So do the ivory-billed woodpecker and the dodo bird alternate on the “Oogah-Chakas?” Because that could make for a nice effect!

Aaargh, now I want to add an adorable chorus of passenger pigeons to do the backup vocals! Though an alternating dodo/woodpecker “oogah-chaka” would add quite the je ne sais quois.
This image is swiftly getting out of my range of artistic competence. I may have to beg my bestie with a degree in studio art to accept a comission.

**
Everyone has very well covered why it’s so fucking gross to throw people with mental illnesses and disorders under the bus. The only thing that I will add to the “that’s so evil he must be sick” conversation is that in May and June of last year, that is EXACTLY what MRA’s were using to dismiss the admittedly misogyny and racism of the Isla Vista killer.

**
@because reasons

I suspect that Doosh wouldn’t even see premature ejaculation as something to “suffer” from.

That reminds me of that troll we had who wanted to debate the “dating market” and whine about his love life and why his grandparents wouldn’t just die already and leave him an inheritance, were you here for that? He insisted that he needed a super-hot girlfriend, partly because he got off in the shortest amount of time if his partner was beautiful. I think it was katz who pointed out that he was trying to manufacture a life where he had the least amount of sex possible.

Orion
5 years ago

LBT,

I believe you’re correct: American law doesn’t generally use mental disability to “downgrade” one charge to a lesser charge in the way Alan describes. However, we do recognize it as a “mitigating factor” that can downgrade a punishment within the range for that crime. In Illinois if you shoot someone and they live, then you’ll be charged with “Battery with a Firearm” and sentenced to between 6 and 30 years. It’s very, very difficult to make an “insanity defense” that will get you out of being convicted. But, if you have schizophrenia, unusually debilitating autism, or a really extreme mood disorder, it’s very doable to have a doctor convince a judge you should get 6 or 10 and not 20 or 30.

Aunt Edna
Aunt Edna
5 years ago

@LBT:

“I thought the point of the mocking comment wasn’t Minter’s icon, it’s that she had it WHILE simultaneously claiming that you must have men make all the first move and do these things so as to get a good relationship. I thought it was the hypocrisy being mocked, not the icon itself.”

That’s exactly right. Thanks.

weirwoodtreehugger
5 years ago

FM,
That troll was both hilarious and disturbing. Remember when he claimed he was going to commit suicide if he didn’t get his inheritance and a hot babe by the time he was 40?

He also thought that women were materialistic and shallow because they want furniture in their homes.

suffrajitsu
suffrajitsu
5 years ago

That reminds me of that troll we had who wanted to debate the “dating market” and whine about his love life and why his grandparents wouldn’t just die already and leave him an inheritance

Fucking hell, that’s a sense of entitlement on part with that of Elliot Rodger. Quoted verbatim from his manifesto (this was said to his mother): “I told her that she should sacrifice her well-being for the sake of my happiness.”

contrapangloss
5 years ago

Oh, yeah! I remember that troll. Mr. Undfreedland, whom I wrote a couple parody songs for.

“When I’m Middle Aged” to the tune of “When I’m Sixty-Four” for reasons.

I think the thread as a whole (and lots of contributions from Fibi!) also was working on a “You’re an A**hole” lyric set, to the tune of “Mr. Grinch”… just for him.

contrapangloss
5 years ago

…he was also like a self parody of just how awful a person can be. Like, I was laughing my socks off because I couldn’t see how anyone could possibly be that awful.

Paradoxical Intention
5 years ago

Flying Mouse | March 23, 2015 at 6:15 pm
That reminds me of that troll we had who wanted to debate the “dating market” and whine about his love life and why his grandparents wouldn’t just die already and leave him an inheritance, were you here for that? He insisted that he needed a super-hot girlfriend, partly because he got off in the shortest amount of time if his partner was beautiful. I think it was katz who pointed out that he was trying to manufacture a life where he had the least amount of sex possible.

weirwoodtreehugger | March 23, 2015 at 11:55 pm
FM,
That troll was both hilarious and disturbing. Remember when he claimed he was going to commit suicide if he didn’t get his inheritance and a hot babe by the time he was 40?

He also thought that women were materialistic and shallow because they want furniture in their homes.

I am so sorry I missed this troll. He sounded like a barrel of laughs.

“What do you mean you want a bed in the bedroom so you can sleep on?! You fucking shallow, materialistic harlot! Sleep on the floor like the rest of the bitches!”

Wow. I hope his grandparents didn’t leave him a red fucking cent (or something useless like a stock portfolio he can’t touch until he grows the fuck up). I hope they left it to his parents. Y’know, their children.

Orion
5 years ago

Am I crazy–excuse me, I meant am I mistaken–or did we already have this exact conversation with Lisa before? How does someone get called out once, go away, then come back to rant about conditions they can’t even spell and expect it to go well?

I liked Ice and Indigo’s post. It was interesting to me because I had never seen autism and sociopathy compared side by side like that. It was striking; it clarified some things I’d stumbled on in my own life, though also I think my life does hint at some gray areas. I’ve just recently come to accept that I’m autistic, but it was never diagnosed until I was 25. Before that, I used to worry sometimes that I might be sociopathic. Partly, I think it was imprecise language obscuring the difference between seeing and not caring and caring and not seeing. Partly, some of my thinking and behavior did resemble the sociopathic profile, but I eventually worked out that it was neither sociopathy nor an effect of autism; it was just training and learned habits.

What complicates it, is that I do think there are a couple areas of overlapping presentation, mainly to do with “charm.” I have a great deal of “superficial charm,” which I actually credit to my autism. When people say that folks on the spectrum find it more difficult to develop social skills, I think it’s worth remembering that “social skills” refers to a big bundle of pretty dissimilar aptitudes. We could try to be more precise about where the challenges are, but I’m tempted to resort to poetry. I like to say that superficial charm isn’t social skill so much as a substitute for social skill. I don’t make eye contact naturally; a lot of my natural body language is stiff and distant. But, trying to charm someone is an exercise in social performance that doesn’t come natural to almost anyone; I can force myself to hold someone’s eyes when I need to, probably better than most neurotypical people. In the same way, I get a lot of social confidence from my challenges in empathy. I’ve found that when it’s hard to read new people, one can either assume the worst and hang back or assume the best and dive in. Assuming that people will like you very often ensures that they do like you (as a group, on average).

Add to that the extreme focus on specialized interests (my interests are social and psychological) and I credit my place on the spectrum as the grounding for most of my social success.

Lea
Lea
5 years ago

I’d love it if people stopped equating illnesses people cannot help having with bigotry and hate people choose to have.

Ice and Indigo
Ice and Indigo
5 years ago

That’s very interesting – thanks Orion. It’s great for me personally, too: my boy’s language skills aren’t yet at the point where he can explain to me what it’s like to be him, so hearing from adults on the spectrum helps along my chances of understanding him. (I mean, I’ve got a pretty good guess on a lot of things – you raise a kid, you know him pretty well – but I don’t get to experience autism from the inside.)

And yes, that ’empathy’ thing is a bit confusing, isn’t it? People use it in a rather conflicted way. I think it goes on the assumption that accurately identifying what somebody is feeling, imagining yourself in their position, and experiencing compassion and fellow-feeling for them all automatically go together. And yes, if you don’t have any glitches in your information processing or damage in your emotional development, that can be true. But if somebody has difficulties with one or another of those, then the word suddenly gets a lot more complicated.

And ‘social skills’ is such a broad category too! Charm is one facet of social skills, of course, but even then there are two almost opposite ways of being charming: you can be charming in the sense that you consciously set out to charm someone, and you can be charming in the sense that you’re naturally endearing or delightful.

And with those … well, actually it’d even be too simple to say that one’s sociopathic and one’s autistic. It sounds like you make quite a conscious effort to be charming, for instance, and with my son – well, he is endearing in an unstudied way (I swear this isn’t just parenthood talking, his freaking medical reports say that about him), but he’s also quite the charmer. He doesn’t quite understand how to have a conversation, but he definitely wants to make connections with people, and he’ll flirt and fool around and tease and joke for exactly the reasons you say: it’s a way of connecting with people that doesn’t require complex understanding. So yes, he’s naturally ‘charming’ in that he’s appealing, but he also tries to charm people because in many ways it’s simpler, and thus within his capacity.

I don’t think I’d call that ‘superficial’, though, at least as regards my own boy. For him, I’d say it comes out of a pretty profound place, which is that he loves feeling friendly with people and is doing what he can to make that happen. (Same as most of us do, really, autistic or not.) The non-sociopathic thing about it is that for him, friendly feelings are rewarding in themselves: they’re not just something you manipulate in order to get material comforts, they’re inherently comforting.

Can I ask: is there any insight you can recommend for him that you’d say was particularly helpful when it comes to managing that ‘want to be friendly’/’find it hard to grasp the nuances’ balance? (Obviously don’t feel obliged if you’re not in the mood!)

Sigh. It’s such a shame autism is so stigmatized. Lots of things are, of course, but I don’t think that you get so many people assuming that dyslexia or epilepsy means your kid must be callous and selfish…

Flying Mouse
Flying Mouse
5 years ago

@WWTH

FM,
That troll was both hilarious and disturbing. Remember when he claimed he was going to commit suicide if he didn’t get his inheritance and a hot babe by the time he was 40?

Yes, I do. I felt kind of bad at the time, because I felt like I should take a suicide threat seriously. But that one just smacked of a spoiled kid pitching a tantrum. “If I don’t get what I want, you’ll be sorry!” He was just such a friggin’ mess.

Oh, yeah! I remember that troll. Mr. Undfreedland, whom I wrote a couple parody songs for.

“When I’m Middle Aged” to the tune of “When I’m Sixty-Four” for reasons.

Holy cats, I’d forgotten about the songs, contrapangloss! Those were amazing.

If anyone wants to relive the glory, the thread is here. Undfreeland makes his debut on page two. Be warned, it’s over 2,000 comments long. It is, however, also chock full of win.

AllisonW
AllisonW
5 years ago

On the Elliot Rodger stuff: having briefly peeked at Elliot Rodger’s writings, there’s no way he didn’t have narcissism to the point of a full-blown personality disorder, which would be a diagnosis of a mental problem but wouldn’t be sufficient to let someone off the hook for criminal acts (unless you have a really stupid jury like the one that accepted the “affluenza” defense). Importantly, that he was almost certainly diagnosable with a personality disorder doesn’t mean that his culture didn’t matter: I’d wager it was the *combination of* our cultural ills and his own munitions-grade narcissism that led to the Isla Vista shootings.

On social skills, my own experiences corroborate some of the other posters here: being an INTP nerd who wasn’t born with the natural social graces others seemed to take for granted in my youth, it’s not simply that some people have social skills and some don’t, but, as Orion said, different people have *different* social skills. Having to *learn* to understand other people gives you different insights than would be had by someone to whom it comes naturally. I’m as prone to hearing what someone *doesn’t* say as much as what they *do* say, for instance.

because reasons
because reasons
5 years ago

@Flying Mouse

That reminds me of that troll we had who wanted to debate the “dating market” and whine about his love life and why his grandparents wouldn’t just die already and leave him an inheritance, were you here for that? He insisted that he needed a super-hot girlfriend, partly because he got off in the shortest amount of time if his partner was beautiful. I think it was katz who pointed out that he was trying to manufacture a life where he had the least amount of sex possible.

No, I don’t remember that. Ewww.

alaisvex
alaisvex
5 years ago

That reminds me of that troll we had who wanted to debate the “dating market” and whine about his love life and why his grandparents wouldn’t just die already and leave him an inheritance, were you here for that? He insisted that he needed a super-hot girlfriend, partly because he got off in the shortest amount of time if his partner was beautiful. I think it was katz who pointed out that he was trying to manufacture a life where he had the least amount of sex possible.

Undfreeland? I’ll never forget.

Orion
5 years ago

@Ice,

I don’t have any insight into that kind of childhood awkwardness, or thwarted attempts at friendship. I was pretty indifferent to the existence of other people until my early teens. I had few close friends, but I wasn’t lonely; I was happy reading books or playing games by myself for indefinitely long periods. The biggest subjective problem I had was that I was hypersensitive to embarrassment or awkward *situations*; I spent way too much time feeling absolutely mortified about things that were no big deal, so in retrospect I remember myself as socially awkward. But, I had a pretty good poker face and half of the things that embarrassed me wouldn’t have been regarded as embarrassing by anyone else, so nobody from looking at me from outside would have said “awkward.”

As an adult, I don’t have a good answer either. I used to look at socializing as a numbers game, with relative disinterest in other people’s comfort. It was like a PUA approach to friendship. I figured that because there’s only space in your life for a few meaningful friendships, and calibrating yourself to individual expectations and group norms is hard, I would just craft myself a vivid/outrageous/larger-than-life persona and jump straight into the middle of any situation without worrying about how individual others responded. The theory was that my persona would “work” for some people, really not work for others, and they would quickly sort themselves out.

I eventually figured out the problems with this plan but I haven’t settled on a cogent new strategy.